Imam Mahdi

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Imam Mahdi

Postby Guest » Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:55 pm

Imam Mahdi (ajf) is the son of Imam Hassan Al-Askari (as) according to the bab right?

according to your writtings and sayings, who are the Ahlulbayt mentioned in the Quran in the verse of purification

regards

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Postby brettz9 » Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:25 pm

Dear Guest,

I do understand that, yes, the Imam Mihdi was the son of Imam Hasan Al-Askari. I am not, however, aware of whether there is an official interpretation of the verse of the Qur'an to which you refer (33:33) in our Writings.

However, our Writings in numerous places do affirm our belief in the rightful succession of the (twelve) Holy Imams following the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon Him and them, and quote from them on numerous occasions.

best wishes,
Brett

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Postby brettz9 » Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:27 pm

We also believe that the Bab was in fact the Return of the Imam Mihdi...

Keyvan

Postby Keyvan » Wed Sep 07, 2005 3:01 am

the 12th Imam was born to Hasan al-Askari, correct. but He did not go into any occultation, He died. plain and simple.

a letter emerged from Him to say that there would be no successor and that He would return on the Advent of the Day of Resurrection.

there were different thoughts on what this meant, but the dominant belief among Shia became that He must be living in occultation. This was a psychological attempt to "keep something going" so it would not feel as though they were without an Imam.

all false, and completely baseless. Shia know this, thus it is pretty rediculous to think we as Baha'i's would need to answer to a myth that we dont even believe in in the first place.

We believe this return constitutes the spiritual return, to The Bab. (Seyyid Ali Muhammad.)

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Postby Noor-Auli-Yaseen » Sat Sep 10, 2005 7:17 pm

so is Bab and Bahaullah according to you, ahlulbayt and part of the ayat tatheer?

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Postby brettz9 » Sun Sep 11, 2005 5:06 pm

As Keyvan was indicating, we believe that the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh represent the return of the Imam Mahdi and Imam Husayn, respectively, but only in a spiritual sense (though the Báb was a siyyid too).

The Bahá'í Writings are also clear (as was Jesus too) that a physical family is different from a spiritual one (particularly in the case of succession or Return).

As the Bahá'í Faith is an independent religion, with its own Book, we have our own issue of successorship as well, called the Guardianship which was to have been passed down through the first-born son, unless he did not possess the necessary spiritual qualities. However, the first Guardian, Shoghi Effendi, died without having a son or appointing another "branch" (male relative of Bahá'u'lláh), so the institution as a whole (beyond the first Guardian) survives (at least for 1000 years) only symbolically (for monarchic traditions).

Brett

Keyvan

Postby Keyvan » Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:35 am

from my understanding in a more strictly Quranic sense, with the exception of hte use of the title Imam Mahdi,



7. He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: in it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part there of that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord;" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 3)



The Bab being Imam Mahdi revealed the allegory, that which was so grand that its revelation was the fulfillment of His own Prophecy (to fill the world with peace and justice)

this Allegory that was revealed was that the Qiyamat itself, Day of Resurrection, The Hour, etc etc, it refers to Baha'u'llah Himself

also on the notion of them both being Rasulet, keep in mind that 33:40 refers to Nabi, not Rasul, and that the entire Surah of Hud insists that another Rasul will come. this is clearly emphasised in 11:120

120 And all that We relate unto thee of the story of the messengers is in order that thereby We may make firm thy heart. And herein hath come unto thee the Truth and an exhortation and a reminder for believers.

(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 11 - Hud)


thus paradigms established in the hadiths are not necessary considering the clarity of those established in the Quran about this in my opinion.

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:25 pm

--Sorry to interrupt but isn't it incorrect to place the "Imam" in front of Mahdi b/c of the 2 traditions?

Keyvan

Postby Keyvan » Thu Sep 22, 2005 11:14 pm

hmm, ive never heard of that. which hadiths are you refering to?

from my study,both Sunni and Shia refer to Him as Imam Mahdi.

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1235, 1260, 1267, 1309, ect.

Postby majnun » Fri Sep 23, 2005 4:40 am

Dear Keyvan;

These things are proofs for beginners, or
convincing arguments for people outsiide the thing.
I simply mean by this, that the historic predictions, some
call it prophecies, become, with time passing by, simple
historical facts.

When i meet friends who have been bahais for a long time,
we rarely discuss about those proof things, like if we dont
need it to be convinced, we simply enjoy our renewed state.
Personally i see those prophecies as
folklore.
Accurate informations, maybe with datation, may
be usefull though, to insert in a conversation with a non bahai
who wish to know more.

I guess that going in deeper and deeper in scriptures
will bring a very nice calming effect on your searching mind.
By the way, how is your ma and pa doing ?

Majnun.

Keyvan

Postby Keyvan » Sat Sep 24, 2005 12:39 am

Dear Majnun,

my opinion is that those coming from a background outside of Ithna-Ashari Shia Islam would see such a thing as folklore and not look beyond tho cover of it.

In fact, the prophecy of Imam Mahdi and what He was to complish is directly and clearly what the prophecy fulfills, in the litteral, not figurative sense.

Progressive Revelation with The Bab and Baha'u'llah as the Savior for all Divinely Ordained Religion upon the The Hour is consistant for all prophecies, but Muhammad was to be the final Prophet until the Advent of the This Day. with the hadiths that He gave us we have the closest indication of any religious prophecy TO this effect.

In fact you can compile every Shia hadith pertaining to Imam Mahdi and find its fulfillment in the Baha'i Dispensation.

The Bab claimed this position, how can you call it folklore?
This was what His followers came to Him for.
Even my great great great grandfather was one of the first to accept Him because he traced through the scripture that Imam Mahdi would return on May 23rd 1844

not only must i dismiss this criticism of Imam Mahdi as folklore, but I would say that i strongly disagree that it should be pushed away by any means.

Rather we must bring an education of Islamic history into Baha'i schools worldwide, espessially in the North American Continent.

The conversion rate to Islam is now faster than the immigration rate. This means that people who have already thrown out "what their fathers followed" are perfectly open minded to learning of this prophecy fulfillment, yet the western community is so immature to this effect that we have had a prohibition on teaching muslim immigrants for all this time.

now we must take the steps to mature. Im glad people are asking more about Imam Mahdi.

also, i personally believe that the catalyst to entry by troops to the North American Continent will be from American Muslims coming to the faith.

it was only after Baha'u'llah came that the prophecy fulfillment became more universalised towards the people of ALL divinely ordained religions, and those of none.

The Bab spoke to Muslims. those Muslims became the base of Baha'u'llah, who spoke to the World

and my parents are doing fine thanks.

Thou canst indeed hear the learned and the foolish amongst the people voice the same objections in this day, saying: "The sun hath not risen from the West, nor hath the Crier cried out betwixt earth and heaven. Water hath not inundated certain lands; the Dajjal 17 hath not appeared; Sufyani 18 hath not arisen; nor hath the Temple been witnessed in the sun." I heard, with Mine own ears, one of their divines proclaim: "Should all these signs come to pass and the long-awaited Qá'im appear, and should He ordain, with respect to even our secondary laws, aught beyond that which hath been revealed in the Qur'án, we would assuredly charge Him with imposture, put Him to death, and refuse forever to acknowledge Him", and other statements such as these deniers make. And all this, when the Day of Resurrection hath been ushered in, and the Trumpet hath been sounded, and all the denizens of earth and heaven have been gathered together, and the Balance hath 20 been appointed, and the Bridge hath been laid, and the Verses have been sent down, and the Sun hath shone forth, and the stars have been blotted out, and the souls have been raised to life, and the breath of the Spirit hath blown, and the angels have been arrayed in ranks, and Paradise hath been brought nigh, and Hell made to blaze! These things have all come to pass, and yet to this day not a single one of these people hath recognized them! They all lie as dead within their own shrouds, save those who have believed and repaired unto God, who rejoice in this day in His celestial paradise, and who tread the path of His good-pleasure.

(Baha'u'llah, Gems of Divine Mysteries, p. 18)

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A barrel of vinegar

Postby majnun » Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:31 pm

Dear Keyvan:

I agree with most of what you express here, but not
every thing.
By the term folklore, I mean that ounce I ingested, or
digested the baha’I formation program, those things
about the prophecies, as they are so well explained
by Abdul Baha, from the Gospel’s last chapter, all of this
(1260, 1267, 1309 etc) seemed not that important, because
my internal voyage has started gradually.

It is normal to be thankful to Muhamad, Ali, and to prophets
of the former times, but as the Bab wrote in the Bayan,
we must be aware that this affection may blind our eyes to
the new written revelations.

Since I began reciting the Baha’I scripture, I did not re-opened
my ounce beloved Qur’an for two years. Islamic history is neither
an obligation nor a necessity to enjoy the freshly pressed “wine”,
although some facts may help understanding the new directions.
The coranic prescription has no real effect. The medication is
obsolete.

May I suggest that valley one invites the wayfarer to take a distance
from his parents, like Joseph did from his father ?

Because of the sweetness of Baha’ullah’s scriptures, to me,
reading the bible is like toxic poison, and reciting the Qur’an
is like drinking a barrel of vinegar.

How many a times did the Bab said in the Persian Bayan that
he who does not come by himself toward these two (2 !) manifestations,
will in the future enjoy only the state of a new convert. (see vahid 8, bab 2).
For the one who comes by himself, the syrat (road) will be larger than
the open skies, but for those attached to ancestry, this road becomes
as narrow as a fine hair, finer than the sharpess blade (it means: impossible
to go trough).

People may travel with the coranic boat for a year or two,
but Khidr has to break the boat, to protect the passengers from a
big danger, hidden from the shore. I am not anti-islamic because
islam is now dying, like christianity. Only the rituals remains.
The spirit is gone, and I am not the one who wrote that. Abdul
Baha did. Sticking to family traditions is like to be frozen in time.

We cannot encourage studying old scriptures while we hold
this jewel into our hands. We cannot promote a book (the Qur’an)
by witch those who swear by it hold a gun and dynamite as their gods.

Conversion to islam is at ground zero because it is a dead end street.
The local librairy may sell one Qur’an book per year. This does not change
the fact, as Abdul Baha wrote it, Persia will be punished for a thousand
years. Any attemps to promote christianity or islam is a useless loss of
time. Blowing up a mind with islamic values is like taking LSD. An instant
psychosis follows the ingestion. History and rhetorics are not
usefull in the baha’I formative courses. We must accept the fact that
we are and will be a silent minority. Showmanship and gatherings
made up for televison are for dummies only. Baha’u’llahs explanations
in Iqan and Gems are made just to show how people misundertood what
was revealed to them. It is not a invitition door to re-study past scriptures.
After these two clarifiying book, citations from qur’an and bible become a rarity, because
and the messenger focuses on the teachings, according to our times.

Who would wish to drink a barrel of vinegar today ?
Smart humans do not tend to become parrots, they
think by themselves, and they see with their own eyes, of course.

Majnun.
.

Keyvan

Postby Keyvan » Sat Sep 24, 2005 3:03 pm

Majnun i can barely agree with anything you wrote. I think some of your references were also taken out of context.

I do agree that one does not need to study past scripture in order to experience an uplift in personal spirituality. However, as to fully understand and appreciate the events of the past 162 years, the structure of the Administrative Order, what we are doing in the formidive age and why, one would need past scripture.

I can tell you how I and others I taught this prophecy of Imam Mahdi have shifted their persona towards more wholehearted approach to building the Cause, as now the perspective magnitiude is realized.

“Shoghi Effendi wishes me also to express his deep-felt appreciation of your intention to study the Qur'án. The knowledge of this revealed holy Book is, indeed, indispensable to every Bahá'í who wishes to adequately understand the writings of Bahá'u'lláh. And in view of that the Guardian has been invariably encouraging the friends to make as thorough a study of this Book as possible, particularly in their Summer Schools.”

(On behalf of Shoghi Effendi, The Importance of Deepening, p. 221)


With all due respect, I find the Seven Valleys very subjective and personal commentaries to be non-relevent in proofs.

I do respect your sharing your personal backgroudn though. It is interesting. Yes, I would agree that we cannot fully understand the past scripture without the current scripture, and the current scripture can give meanings independent.

However, without the knowledge of Islamic History and expectations the gravity of the situation we are in will go far underappreciated and often misunderstood.

In other words, a Ithna-Ashari Shia Muhammadean who becomes Bahai would generally take every second of the formidive age farrr more seriously tahn say a person absent of religion that becomes a Bahai.

its fine coming from whatever background of course, but to truely understand progressive revelation and the twin Prophets in the scheme of things, this history and prophecy would need to be understood.

As for the Bayan, 2 Prophets refers to the Dispensation.

by that logic you are excluding following the future Blessed Manifestation


and my reference of that quote is to show you the consistant validity of what you described as "folklore"


Keyvan

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Re: A barrel of vinegar

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sat Sep 24, 2005 3:03 pm

majnun wrote:Because of the sweetness of Baha’ullah’s scriptures, to me,
reading the bible is like toxic poison, and reciting the Qur’an
is like drinking a barrel of vinegar.



If I may interject, I know I'm not a part of this conversation, and I agree that the Bible and Qur'an are not as "effective" (for lack of a better term) than the Baha'i Writings, but I think we should avoid comparing the Word of God, though it be "outdated" to "toxic poison." If you are a Baha'i, and therefore accept the fact that Christ, for example, was a Manifestation of God, then you should probably refrain from referring to His sayings as "toxic poison [sic]" and show some respect.

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Re: A barrel of vinegar

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sat Sep 24, 2005 3:20 pm

I'm lost...Baha'is are promoting the Qur'an? Since when?

I think it is important to learn some proofs, especially if you are talking to a Muslim (or Christian proofs if you are talking to a Christian).

While I don't necessarily disagree with the quote from you below, I think it might be better to exercise judgment in how we say things, especially because there are people of other faiths on this forum. The Master says our words should be like honey, and the Writings talk about how harsh words are like a sharp sword.

—Warrior



majnun wrote: We cannot encourage studying old scriptures while we hold this jewel into our hands. We cannot promote a book (the Qur’an)
by witch those who swear by it hold a gun and dynamite as their gods.

Keyvan

Postby Keyvan » Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:14 pm

warrior, i must disagree with you sayiing "Some" proofs"


remember this quote


“Shoghi Effendi wishes me also to express his deep-felt appreciation of your intention to study the Qur'án. The knowledge of this revealed holy Book is, indeed, indispensable to every Bahá'í who wishes to adequately understand the writings of Bahá'u'lláh. And in view of that the Guardian has been invariably encouraging the friends to make as thorough a study of this Book as possible, particularly in their Summer Schools.”

(On behalf of Shoghi Effendi, The Importance of Deepening, p. 221)



i believe it to be arrogant and misguided for anyone to neglect a word of the Quran.

The Bible is different becasue it is not completely authentic. so the statement about some proofs is better placed there, and we can quote from the quotes of the The Bab, Baha'u'llah, and Abdu'l Baha who quoted the authentic verses

Keyvan

Postby Keyvan » Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:23 pm

also i want to add, the past Dispensation is exhausted yes, in its ability to build a Cause. that time is passed.
but that by no means has any corrolation with its growth.
so dont be quick to call it "declining"

those following Islam are one step closer to the faith and can more directly understand the Sharia prophecy for which we are a fulfillment of. i know Muslims that have become Baha'i's, but only did so out of hard to find works of scholordom.

the western community is for the most part not mature enough to teach Muslims, for the reason that it is coming from a Christian background. they are still lost on false theological concepts like the trinity.

they go by simplistic ideals and make that the whole religon without scholorly study.

only by understanding the corrective teachings revealed by MUHAMMAD can they then move onto the faith with an adequate understanding of the writings of Baha'u'llah

remember that INFALLIBLE QUOTE mind you

“Shoghi Effendi wishes me also to express his deep-felt appreciation of your intention to study the Qur'án. The knowledge of this revealed holy Book is, indeed, indispensable to every Bahá'í who wishes to adequately understand the writings of Bahá'u'lláh. And in view of that the Guardian has been invariably encouraging the friends to make as thorough a study of this Book as possible, particularly in their Summer Schools.”

(On behalf of Shoghi Effendi, The Importance of Deepening, p. 221)



Islams conversion rate is faster than the immigration rate in the west

that is good for us because we have investigative people coming out to learn of the faith for a fair judgement

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:44 pm

keyvan,

understand that there are varying degrees of "understanding." notice that the Guardian uses the adjective "adequately." it is true, to understand Baha'u'llah's commentaries on the Qu'ran, you have to understand that part of the Qu'ran that is being discussed. however, as to the rest of the Writings, the pure in heart are certainly able to understand them. since Islam preceded the Baha'i Faith, the understanding of Qu'ran is certainly more important than that of the Bible, as you say, but one can still get by without having a comprehensive understanding of the Qu'ran. for example, keyvan, someone that has studied the Qu'ran more deeply than you will have a better understanding of the Writings than you, especially in regard to the commentaries on the Qu'ran. so like i said there are varying degrees of understanding, and you cannot say that one's reading of the Writings is futile if he does not have a complete understanding of the Qu'ran. certainly a Baha'i should know some basic facts, i.e. who the Twelfth Imam is, but you can still get by without knowing all the proofs, small details, etc.

but certainly it is best to have a sound understanding of the Qu'ran, that is 100% true. and I already knew Guardian is infallible.

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:50 pm

that is only your opinion. it would be better (be of a greater benefit) if they directly became Baha'is. the reason they are not becoming Baha'is is in a way our fault (collectively speaking).

would it not be better if they came to the Baha'i Faith and studied the Qu'ran, than becoming Muslim and then converting (which there is a much smaller chance in that case). The Baha'i Faith is the religion for this day and age. you are making it sound like the high conversion rate to Islam is a good thing. remember that the majority of Western converts come from Christian backgrounds, not Muslim!



Keyvan wrote:Islams conversion rate is faster than the immigration rate in the west

that is good for us because we have investigative people coming out to learn of the faith for a fair judgement

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sat Sep 24, 2005 5:07 pm

Keyvan wrote:also i want to add, the past Dispensation is exhausted yes, in its ability to build a Cause. that time is passed.
but that by no means has any corrolation with its growth.
so dont be quick to call it "declining"


Were you talking to me or majnun? because i never used the word "declining" and he did not either. since you know a lot about Shoghi Effendi, you should also realize that the Guardian talks about the downfall of the Christian and Islamic institutions. You can call it decline, downfall, whatever. just because the Muslim conversion rate is high, that does not invalidate what the Guardian said, and you yourself stated that Shoghi Effendi is infallible.

Guest

Postby Guest » Sat Sep 24, 2005 5:38 pm

Baha'i Warrior wrote:keyvan,

understand that there are varying degrees of "understanding." notice that the Guardian uses the adjective "adequately." it is true, to understand Baha'u'llah's commentaries on the Qu'ran, you have to understand that part of the Qu'ran that is being discussed. however, as to the rest of the Writings, the pure in heart are certainly able to understand them. since Islam preceded the Baha'i Faith, the understanding of Qu'ran is certainly more important than that of the Bible, as you say, but one can still get by without having a comprehensive understanding of the Qu'ran. for example, keyvan, someone that has studied the Qu'ran more deeply than you will have a better understanding of the Writings than you, especially in regard to the commentaries on the Qu'ran. so like i said there are varying degrees of understanding, and you cannot say that one's reading of the Writings is futile if he does not have a complete understanding of the Qu'ran. certainly a Baha'i should know some basic facts, i.e. who the Twelfth Imam is, but you can still get by without knowing all the proofs, small details, etc.

but certainly it is best to have a sound understanding of the Qu'ran, that is 100% true. and I already knew Guardian is infallible.









this quote does NOT refer to commentaries, it refers to the WRITINGS

adequate is the word used in contrast to inadequate. thus without the Quran one will have a LESS than adequate (inadeqaute) undersatnding of the writings

Guest

Postby Guest » Sat Sep 24, 2005 5:46 pm

Baha'i Warrior wrote:that is only your opinion. it would be better (be of a greater benefit) if they directly became Baha'is. the reason they are not becoming Baha'is is in a way our fault (collectively speaking).

would it not be better if they came to the Baha'i Faith and studied the Qu'ran, than becoming Muslim and then converting (which there is a much smaller chance in that case). The Baha'i Faith is the religion for this day and age. you are making it sound like the high conversion rate to Islam is a good thing. remember that the majority of Western converts come from Christian backgrounds, not Muslim!






thats the point...they come from Christian backgrounds. they are not getting the corrective revelation of Muhammad.

thats WHY they must study the QURAN.


Shoghi Effendi has said, and i wish i had the quote, that a Christian must first accept Shia Islam, before they become a Baha'i.

Keyvan

Postby Keyvan » Sat Sep 24, 2005 5:49 pm

Baha'i Warrior wrote:
Keyvan wrote:also i want to add, the past Dispensation is exhausted yes, in its ability to build a Cause. that time is passed.
but that by no means has any corrolation with its growth.
so dont be quick to call it "declining"


Were you talking to me or majnun? because i never used the word "declining" and he did not either. since you know a lot about Shoghi Effendi, you should also realize that the Guardian talks about the downfall of the Christian and Islamic institutions. You can call it decline, downfall, whatever. just because the Muslim conversion rate is high, that does not invalidate what the Guardian said, and you yourself stated that Shoghi Effendi is infallible.





i was talking to majnun.

and yes i agree. in fact my grandmother told me when i was young, that in the Persian writings Baha'u'llah explains how Islam will grow very high, then hit a peak, then decline very fast.

do not think that prophecy fulfills itself and we play no part in it.

we must get scholordom and the information out there so that all Muslims know the truth of the Dispensation.

not to mention the corrective teachings of Muhammad are absolutely necessary as i explained in th epost above this

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sat Sep 24, 2005 5:53 pm

you are just looking at the surface of this. again, as i said there are varying degrees of understanding (a fact you cannot dispute). You are making it sound like there are absolutes; if you study the Qu’ran, you can understand the Writings; if you do not study the Qu’ran, then your reading of the Writings is useless. That way of thinking is certainly not correct and unfounded. the commentaries, as you might or might not know, are part of the Writings, so by Writings the Guardian is also referring to Baha'u'llah's commentaries. If 'Abdu'l-Baha is talking about universal brotherhood, and Baha'u'llah is talking discussing a chapter of the Qu'ran, which requires a fuller understanding of the Qu'ran? Again, I am not disagreeing that Baha'is should study the Qu'ran, but do not be so quick to call Baha'is "inadequate" just based on that quote. you are misinterpreting it by making that judgment. So, sure, your level of understand is less, but you can still understand the Writings so some extent. for example, to understand the english language adequately—to really understand it—you need to understand Latin, French, etc. but you can still understand English without knowledge of Latin. however, you may always go back and study Latin once you have a solid understanding of english. this same principle applies to the topic at hand.



Anonymous wrote:
Baha'i Warrior wrote:keyvan,

understand that there are varying degrees of "understanding." notice that the Guardian uses the adjective "adequately." it is true, to understand Baha'u'llah's commentaries on the Qu'ran, you have to understand that part of the Qu'ran that is being discussed. however, as to the rest of the Writings, the pure in heart are certainly able to understand them. since Islam preceded the Baha'i Faith, the understanding of Qu'ran is certainly more important than that of the Bible, as you say, but one can still get by without having a comprehensive understanding of the Qu'ran. for example, keyvan, someone that has studied the Qu'ran more deeply than you will have a better understanding of the Writings than you, especially in regard to the commentaries on the Qu'ran. so like i said there are varying degrees of understanding, and you cannot say that one's reading of the Writings is futile if he does not have a complete understanding of the Qu'ran. certainly a Baha'i should know some basic facts, i.e. who the Twelfth Imam is, but you can still get by without knowing all the proofs, small details, etc.

but certainly it is best to have a sound understanding of the Qu'ran, that is 100% true. and I already knew Guardian is infallible.









this quote does NOT refer to commentaries, it refers to the WRITINGS

adequate is the word used in contrast to inadequate. thus without the Quran one will have a LESS than adequate (inadeqaute) undersatnding of the writings

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sat Sep 24, 2005 5:57 pm

again, you are misinterpreting what i am saying. did i every say christians should not study the qu'ran? no, i did not. you are making things up again. i said it is better for them to become Baha'is and then study the Qu'ran, as opposed to converting to Islam and then to the Baha'i Faith.

and yes, they must first accept Shia Islam before becoming Baha'i, I agree 100%....but that does not mean they have to become a Muslim to accept it! please try to understand the meaning of these quotes!!

Anonymous wrote:
Baha'i Warrior wrote:that is only your opinion. it would be better (be of a greater benefit) if they directly became Baha'is. the reason they are not becoming Baha'is is in a way our fault (collectively speaking).

would it not be better if they came to the Baha'i Faith and studied the Qu'ran, than becoming Muslim and then converting (which there is a much smaller chance in that case). The Baha'i Faith is the religion for this day and age. you are making it sound like the high conversion rate to Islam is a good thing. remember that the majority of Western converts come from Christian backgrounds, not Muslim!






thats the point...they come from Christian backgrounds. they are not getting the corrective revelation of Muhammad.

thats WHY they must study the QURAN.


Shoghi Effendi has said, and i wish i had the quote, that a Christian must first accept Shia Islam, before they become a Baha'i.

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sat Sep 24, 2005 6:00 pm

Keyvan wrote:
do not think that prophecy fulfills itself and we play no part in it.


i feel like we are playing games here. did i not say it is our fault that Muslims are not becoming Baha'is? The Writings say this. Please read everything I say before responding.

to quote myself,

"the reason they are not becoming Baha'is is in a way our fault (collectively speaking). " SEE above post

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Postby majnun » Sat Sep 24, 2005 7:57 pm

Dear friends:

Let's not use words as sword, we are not in a war of ideas.

If i tell a muslim friend: you need ot read the Gospel and the Bible to understand the Qur'an, he will reject this idea, because it not necessary.

It is the same with us.

The Najh al- Balhaga, with the letters written by Ali, gives
an interesting point of view of the evolution of Islam, in its
beginings. But again, it is not an obligation to read it.

Neither the Messenger nor his son Abdul Baha, and
Shogi Effendi ever wrote any obligation to study Qur'an.
They sometimes picked up example of instructions given
in the past, to show how plain folks twisted them, or misunderstood
them.

The citation frien Keyvan wrote are signed "on behalf" of someone.
Things written "on behalf", or "in the name of" cannot be taken
seriously. You wont find anything in what Shogi Effendi wrote
by himself concerning any obligation to study older scriptures.

Accepting Shia ? this is another invention. It is not necessary,
to merit paradise. Just think about this young newcomer from China or
Japan, who, fascinated by the writings of Baha'u'llah wishes to
put it in action into his life, into his community. Will we tell him, oh,
dear newcomer, you've got to understand Quran full well, then accept
Shia to be a real baha'i. This would be a total NONSENSE. In reality,
a SIN to tell him that, to impose our own muslim background on newcomers.

Remember that, the Guardian knew how to write and type, by himself.
Things written "on behalf" or in his name, are just hearsay that passed trough another person's mind.

The principle of the valleys are simple, but if we cannot detach
from the informations we recorded from our past, we will turn
around in circles, and will not be able to move behond the subconcious
mind. The carvern is : our head.

How many did sleep in there ? 7 or 8 ? plus the animal in the middle.

We are in valley 9, and we must let sleep 7 or 8 valleys (old twisted brain zones) + the animal, put them to sleep for at least 300 years (or 309 ?)

Only one person will emerge from the cavern, to deal with the
external world, it is the new "us", freed from our past. Baha'ullah does not write poetry, this is basic therapy. This symbolic is quite simple.


Majnun.
.

Guest

Postby Guest » Sat Sep 24, 2005 7:58 pm

Baha'i Warrior wrote:you are just looking at the surface of this. again, as i said there are varying degrees of understanding (a fact you cannot dispute). You are making it sound like there are absolutes; if you study the Qu’ran, you can understand the Writings; if you do not study the Qu’ran, then your reading of the Writings is useless. That way of thinking is certainly not correct and unfounded. the commentaries, as you might or might not know, are part of the Writings, so by Writings the Guardian is also referring to Baha'u'llah's commentaries. If 'Abdu'l-Baha is talking about universal brotherhood, and Baha'u'llah is talking discussing a chapter of the Qu'ran, which requires a fuller understanding of the Qu'ran? Again, I am not disagreeing that Baha'is should study the Qu'ran, but do not be so quick to call Baha'is "inadequate" just based on that quote. you are misinterpreting it by making that judgment. So, sure, your level of understand is less, but you can still understand the Writings so some extent. for example, to understand the english language adequately—to really understand it—you need to understand Latin, French, etc. but you can still understand English without knowledge of Latin. however, you may always go back and study Latin once you have a solid understanding of english. this same principle applies to the topic at hand.



Anonymous wrote:
Baha'i Warrior wrote:keyvan,

understand that there are varying degrees of "understanding." notice that the Guardian uses the adjective "adequately." it is true, to understand Baha'u'llah's commentaries on the Qu'ran, you have to understand that part of the Qu'ran that is being discussed. however, as to the rest of the Writings, the pure in heart are certainly able to understand them. since Islam preceded the Baha'i Faith, the understanding of Qu'ran is certainly more important than that of the Bible, as you say, but one can still get by without having a comprehensive understanding of the Qu'ran. for example, keyvan, someone that has studied the Qu'ran more deeply than you will have a better understanding of the Writings than you, especially in regard to the commentaries on the Qu'ran. so like i said there are varying degrees of understanding, and you cannot say that one's reading of the Writings is futile if he does not have a complete understanding of the Qu'ran. certainly a Baha'i should know some basic facts, i.e. who the Twelfth Imam is, but you can still get by without knowing all the proofs, small details, etc.

but certainly it is best to have a sound understanding of the Qu'ran, that is 100% true. and I already knew Guardian is infallible.









this quote does NOT refer to commentaries, it refers to the WRITINGS

adequate is the word used in contrast to inadequate. thus without the Quran one will have a LESS than adequate (inadeqaute) undersatnding of the writings








YES PART of the writings are commentaries. but the quote doesnt say to understand PART OF THE WRITINGS, it says THE WRITINGS. yes it is an absolute, indeed, correct!! affrimative! bingo!!!

if you have a problem with that clear and explicit infallible writing, perhaps you should take it out with the Guardian.

Guest

Postby Guest » Sat Sep 24, 2005 8:01 pm

Baha'i Warrior wrote:again, you are misinterpreting what i am saying. did i every say christians should not study the qu'ran? no, i did not. you are making things up again. i said it is better for them to become Baha'is and then study the Qu'ran, as opposed to converting to Islam and then to the Baha'i Faith.

and yes, they must first accept Shia Islam before becoming Baha'i, I agree 100%....but that does not mean they have to become a Muslim to accept it! please try to understand the meaning of these quotes!!

Anonymous wrote:
Baha'i Warrior wrote:that is only your opinion. it would be better (be of a greater benefit) if they directly became Baha'is. the reason they are not becoming Baha'is is in a way our fault (collectively speaking).

would it not be better if they came to the Baha'i Faith and studied the Qu'ran, than becoming Muslim and then converting (which there is a much smaller chance in that case). The Baha'i Faith is the religion for this day and age. you are making it sound like the high conversion rate to Islam is a good thing. remember that the majority of Western converts come from Christian backgrounds, not Muslim!






thats the point...they come from Christian backgrounds. they are not getting the corrective revelation of Muhammad.

thats WHY they must study the QURAN.


Shoghi Effendi has said, and i wish i had the quote, that a Christian must first accept Shia Islam, before they become a Baha'i.






that is agreeable, but in the your other posts you insist that it be used for a specific purpose.

i am not saying for any specific purpose, although that is ONE motivation, i am saying to correct their notions from Christianity. clearing up the trinity,the station of Christ

there are many Bahais who still dont know this.

Guest

Postby Guest » Sat Sep 24, 2005 8:11 pm

Baha'i Warrior wrote:
Keyvan wrote:
do not think that prophecy fulfills itself and we play no part in it.


i feel like we are playing games here. did i not say it is our fault that Muslims are not becoming Baha'is? The Writings say this. Please read everything I say before responding.

to quote myself,

"the reason they are not becoming Baha'is is in a way our fault (collectively speaking). " SEE above post



there is a prohibition in the west on bahais teaching middle eastern muslims, this is because the western community is rooted in christianity and not yet developed enough yet to handle the questions of muslims,

2030. Teaching the Muslims

".... Teaching Muslims the Faith requires to a great degree a knowledge of the Qur'án, so that you can bring them proofs from their own texts. If you have not mastered this yet, he suggests that you do so with the help of some of the Bahá'ís from the Islamic background. In this way you will attract the well-educated Muslims, and they will be deeply appreciative that an American should know so much about their religion."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, April 9, 1956)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 599)




as a community we must be able to facilitate the inquiries of Muslims. this is not the case in the west.

Keyvan

Postby Keyvan » Sat Sep 24, 2005 8:12 pm

those last 3 were by me

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sat Sep 24, 2005 8:34 pm

majnun is right. keyvan, next time we discuss something i would appreciate it if you DIDN'T SHOUT so much. thanks :wink:

Keyvan

Postby Keyvan » Sat Sep 24, 2005 11:50 pm

majnun wrote:The citation frien Keyvan wrote are signed "on behalf" of someone.
Things written "on behalf", or "in the name of" cannot be taken
seriously. You wont find anything in what Shogi Effendi wrote
by himself concerning any obligation to study older scriptures.
.




Majnun this is a most grave error on your part


"Instructions sent on behalf of the Guardian are binding, as are the words of the Guardian; although of course, they are not the Guardian's words.

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 313)




he did not write it himself, but this is a recording of what he wanted to say. things his staff knows he says in letters all over, and to by word of mouth.

Shoghi Effendi read and SIGNED everyone of them. if he did not agree with them 100% to his Divine and INFALLIBLE guidence, he would not have done so.

the UHJ uses letters on behalf of the Guardian as the same binidn interperretation and implementation instructions

its rather foolish to try to convince yourself or anyone that they are not to be taken seriously and quite disrespectful the faith i must add.

this is almost a sohrab mentality you are preaching.

Keyvan

Postby Keyvan » Sat Sep 24, 2005 11:54 pm

these letters done on behalf, which are recorded derived from the words of the Guardian, and SIGNED BY HIM under his Infallible Divine Guidence, to which the UHJ recognises and uses, were done in order to SAVE TIME

why do you bring up your random commentary on the seven valleys in every single thread?

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Postby majnun » Sun Sep 25, 2005 12:57 am

Dear Keyvan;

I realise that this is a very sensible topic for your person.

Is it logical to impose a study of the bible to a muslim person
claiming he will understand his writings better ?

My opinion is no. This is insanity and backwardness.

Is it logical to impose a stydy of the Qur'an plus other islamic
writings to a baha'i person claiming he will understand his own writings better ?

My opinion is no. This is insanity and backwardness.

In about 850 years, a new scripture will come out.
The same logic will apply. Humanity will have become so
advanced spiritually, that baha'i scripture will appear then,
as good as a barrel of vinegar.

In the year 3000 ad, some retarded people will still claim: oh, you must study all the baha'i scripture to understand your writings better...

This is how evolution works, according to Allah's plan, and this
is how we can distinguish the slow ones who prefer to remain on their
imaginary island instead of swiming into the sea.


Majnun.
.

Keyvan

Postby Keyvan » Sun Sep 25, 2005 1:20 am

heres the difference. The Bible is not fully authentic, the Quran is.

The Quran in itself gave corrective teachings of the Bible, hense another reason why Bahais from Christian backgrounds need read it.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0972851887/103-5144421-1360628?v=glance

id like to remind you that you are contradicting the Infallible Divine Guidence of the Guardian here.

that which you call "insanity and backwardness" tell it to his face.

tell me, do you know better than the Guardian?

can you define Allah's plan on your personal commentaries, disregarding the words of the Guardian?

and yes i will uphold that study of the Bahai Faith will give guidence towards the Dispensation to come.

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Yes, the Qur'an is authentic

Postby majnun » Sun Sep 25, 2005 1:29 am

Absolutely, it is authentic. No sane person would
dare to say the contrary.

But the Bab says it is obsolete, in the Bayan.
And I agree with the Bab. Read the Bayan to
be convinced.

Even if it is authentic, the Qur'an still taste like vinegar to me.
A waste of time for now. It is obsolete.

MJ.

Keyvan

Postby Keyvan » Sun Sep 25, 2005 2:56 am

be careful with your choice of words. just because something isnt for primary use doesnt mean it is worthless. that is a completely misguided interperetation

we know this for sure, that your interperretation is completely misguided, because of the Infallible Divine Guidence of the Guardian. SHOGHI EFFENDI. Amineh Dineh Bahai, Ayatollah. Chosen Branch.

do you carry such distinct titles given from Hazrat Baha'u'llah?

if you want to beleive that fine, but its not consistant with the guidence from the Guardian. That being, a contradiction to the Infallibility of the Guardian, thus a contradiction to the infallibility of Abdu'l Baha who named INfallibility to the Guardian, and thus a contradiction to the Prophethood of Hazrat Baha'u'llah who named that Distinction to Abdu'l Baha, and thus a contradiction to what The Bab named Him. Read the Bayan ;)

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:26 pm

Keyvan wrote:Majnun this is a most grave error on your part


"O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me."

Is this the Baha'i way to go about things, Keyvan, shouting (typing in CAPS) and telling people they are wrong? If you read the Writings then you would realize that if you are indeed right, and some says to you "No, you are wrong," then you should drop it because arguing will make both of you wrong. It is human nature to want to argue and "be right" and get the last word in, but a Baha'i should hold himself to higher standards, and the Writings say this. And who might be the better Baha'i...the Baha'i who maintains peace and does not study the Qu'ran, or the Baha'i that studies the Qu'ran and goes postal over a single quote?


As far as I can tell, this argument, or whatever you want to call it (I refrain from calling it a discussion), is over whether we should study the Qu'ran or not.

I think as with many things in life there are priorities. When the Faith began spreading in the West, for example, the priority was (especially in the United States) to get the races to intermingle and also to keep the Faith growing, among others. To study is Qu'ran is very good and should be encouraged, as the beloved Guardian says, but I believe a Baha'i can develop to a great extent spiritually by, say, observing what the five year plans call for, deepening himself in the Writings, teaching others of the Baha'i Faith, etc.

There are numerous advantages to studying the Qu'ran: not only will you have much more insight into Baha'u'llah's Writings, but you will also be able to talk intelligently among Muslims. I'm sure most of us are more familiar with Christianity than Islam, and therefore we would have a much easier time teaching a Christian than a Muslim, but if you have knowledge of the Qu'ran, you are twice as powerful, if knowledge is power. So we should, if possible, study the Qu'ran by all means, but we should not slander other Baha'is if they have not yet studied the Qu'ran or have no desire to study it, because by doing so that behavior is certainly not going to make you a more spiritual person.

—Also, Majnun, I agree with some of the things you say, but it is very obvious that the Qu'ran is of much more importance to us as Baha'is than that of the Bible. Why? First, the Qu'ran is authentic, as Muhammad Himself revealed it. However, the Bible is filled with many stories, poetry (Pslams) and even those recorded utterances of Christ are probably not at all authentic, and don't forget the book of Revelations (need I say more?). While the Baha'i Faith is an independent world religion, it did emerge out of Shi'a Islam, and a lot of its practices are embeded in that, and Baha'u'llah Himself puts a great emphasis on the Qu'ran in His Writings (Muhammad is referred to counless times even by 'Abdu'l-Baha). So it might taste like vinegar to you, but it is a very important book because Islam—though "outdated"—still preceded the Baha'i Faith and that fact alone makes it very important. It is the "Mother Religion" of the Baha'i Faith. Just look at Christianity—did the Christians not include the Old Testament with their New Testament? This same pattern can be seen in all the world religions.
And vinegar is associated with many health benefits, so get used to it—it's good for your spiritual health.

I looked up the quote Keyvan has shwwn, and he is right:

“With regard to the school's program for the next summer; the Guardian would certainly advise, and even urge the friends to make a thorough study of the Qur'án, as the knowledge of this Sacred Scripture is absolutely indispensable for every believer who wishes to adequately understand, and intelligently read the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh.”

The Guardian also seems to make a point of learning this material in Summer schools, (so I guess I’ll be looking out for some courses at Louhelen.) But Majnun, you might want to reexamine what you said in an earlier post about these quotes not to be taken seriously:

majnun wrote:“ The citation frien Keyvan wrote are signed "on behalf" of someone. Things written "on behalf", or "in the name of" cannot be taken seriously. You wont find anything in what Shogi Effendi wrote by himself concerning any obligation to study older scriptures. “



True, it is on the behalf of someone, but obviously it was important enough for the Research Department to put it in the “The Importance of Deepening our Knowledge and Understanding of the Faith” compilation. The Guardian says the same thing to two different individual believers so I’m sure it is important.

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Postby Keyvan » Sun Sep 25, 2005 8:02 pm

“Shoghi Effendi wishes me also to express his deep-felt appreciation of your intention to study the Qur'án. The knowledge of this revealed holy Book is, indeed, indispensable to every Bahá'í who wishes to adequately understand the writings of Bahá'u'lláh. And in view of that the Guardian has been invariably encouraging the friends to make as thorough a study of this Book as possible, particularly in their Summer Schools.”

(On behalf of Shoghi Effendi, The Importance of Deepening, p. 221)


“With regard to the school's program for the next summer; the Guardian would certainly advise, and even urge the friends to make a thorough study of the Qur'án, as the knowledge of this Sacred Scripture is absolutely indispensable for every believer who wishes to adequately understand, and intelligently read the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh.”





particularly in the summer schools, particularly, thats ONE arena in which he wants it to be studied, certainly not all. the second quote you brought, was brought with your comment that suggest the exclucivity of that.

so no, its not.

its in ALL.



in addition, i add in my words only emphasis, ARROWS. the GUARDIAN has said these things, i am showing what the GUARDIAN has said. again, if anyone has a problem, that is a problem with what the Guardian has said.

i guess in order to try to disregard it, its easier to pin it on me, as though its something that IM saying, and not the Guardian.

the fact remains.

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Postby Keyvan » Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:35 pm

“Shoghi Effendi wishes me also to express his deep-felt appreciation of your intention to study the Qur'án. The knowledge of this revealed holy Book is, indeed, indispensable to every Bahá'í who wishes to adequately understand the writings of Bahá'u'lláh. And in view of that the Guardian has been invariably encouraging the friends to make as thorough a study of this Book as possible, particularly in their Summer Schools.”

(On behalf of Shoghi Effendi, The Importance of Deepening, p. 221)

see how summer schools are ONE componant of that. but its not exclusive to that point, FAR FROM IT. EVERY Baha'i who wishes to adequately understand the writings of Baha'u'llah, "EVERY"


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