The second coming of Christ and Christians (x-ferred)

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brettz9
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The second coming of Christ and Christians (x-ferred)

Postby brettz9 » Fri Sep 09, 2005 6:52 am

(This post was originally by Nowis...I just transferred it from the old /forum3 site)

When teaching Christians how does one explain that Christ returned in 1844, when the world seems to be going from bad to worse ?

Christians expect everyting to be wonderful when Christ returns.

brettz9
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Postby brettz9 » Fri Sep 09, 2005 6:54 am

(This post was originally from Hasan... I just transferred it here... B.Z.)

Nowis,

If you are interested in prophecies, I recommend yo to read the Kitáb.i.Íqán of Bahá'u'lláh (http://bahai-library.com/writings/bahaullah/iqan/

"Some Answered Questions" of 'Abdu'l-Bahá (see index here: http://www.bahai-library.com/writings/abdulbaha/saq/

"Bahá'u'lláh and the New Era" chapter 13-14, of the Hand of Cause John Esslemont:

http://bahai-library.com/books/new.era/13.html
http://bahai-library.com/books/new.era/14.html


This link of Warwick: http://bahai-library.com/introductory/w ... eturn.html

Also this, about interpretation of Biblical Verses:
http://bahai-library.com/?file=uhj_inte ... cal_verses

It would be interesting if we talk about a specific subjet.

cheers,

brettz9
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Postby brettz9 » Fri Sep 09, 2005 6:55 am

(This post was made by myself earlier... I am just now transferring it here... B.Z.)

Dear Nowis,

As Hasan suggested, the Íqán and Some Answered Questions are good places to start...

As far as your particular question, I think the Íqán might allude to this, in a passage after Bahá'u'lláh has explained a passage from the Bible (Matthew 24:29-31) referring to the oppression that will precede the might and subsequent bliss of His second coming:

What "oppression" is more grievous than that a soul seeking the truth, and wishing to attain unto the knowledge of God, should know not where to go for it and from whom to seek it? For opinions have sorely differed, and the ways unto the attainment of God have multiplied. This "oppression" is the essential feature of every Revelation. Unless it cometh to pass, the Sun of Truth will not be made manifest. For the break of the morn of divine guidance must needs follow the darkness of the night of error.

(par. 19)


So, this happiness should refer to the opportunity for clear guidance which we finally have now in this Age of ages, as well as to the process of building the Kingdom of God on earth, which is being accomplished by the building of Bahá'u'lláh's institutions and community life.

And the fact that this period of bliss is to be 1000 years should be significant for Christians, as the Bahá'í Writings speak of Bahá'u'lláh's Dispensation lasting for at least this long (until the next Manifestation of God Who will also be persecuted--perhaps alluding to the 7 days mentioned in the Book of Revelation where Satan would be unloosed again for a short time after these 1000 years).

brettz9
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Postby brettz9 » Fri Sep 09, 2005 6:56 am

(This post was originally from Nowis... I just transferred it here... B.Z.)

Thank you, I'm sure you are right that the answer lies in these books, I read them regularly but am perhaps being a bit lazy and trying to get a short cut to the truth.
A specific challenges I have became aware of is;

Revelation 1:7 - "Look he is coming on the clouds. Everyone will see him, including those who pierced him. All peoples on earth will mourn him. So shall it be".

A Christian might ask that if Bahaullah is Christ returned, why hasn't everyone seen him and why hasn't everyone on earth mourned him ?

brettz9
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Postby brettz9 » Fri Sep 09, 2005 6:58 am

This is the last post to transfer. Feel free to discuss further in this thread now, if you wish.

One resource you may find helpful in examining specific passages is to go to http://bahai-library.com/browse0.php (Choose Bible). In this case I chose book 66 (Revelation--Sorry, I haven't implemented searches or browses yet except by book/chapter/verse number) and found your verse. There is one pilgrim's note (of 'Abdu'l-Bahá) corresponding to this verse (as you can see in the search results for Chapter 1). If you follow the link, it says:

"Did not Christ say He would come like a thief in the night?" He asked.[64]

"Ah! But He also said 'every eye should see Him!'"[65]

There was quite a note of triumph in her voice!


"Every eye, yes," smiled the Master. "Those who do not see Him are spiritually blind. You love Christ?" (gently).

I had never before seen that cold little face light up.

"Oh, yes."

"So do I," said the Master gravely and with great tenderness. "No one in this world loves Christ so much as I."

"How do you think Christ will come?" He went on. "Have you studied the science of the skies? You know what clouds are composed of? How do you think Christ will come?"

"Oh, I don't think that Christ will come from a material heaven, but from that place--no one knows what it is--where the imperishable part of us goes."

"Bravo! Bravo!" said our Lord. "I am very much pleased with your answer."

(Diary of Juliet Thompson, online here)


This goes along also, I think, with Chapter 2, verse 7 of Revelation:

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches...


Also, if you include chapter 0 in your searches for a given book, it may also have information pertaining to the whole book there (e.g., for Book of Revelation, "chapter 0"). You are also not limited to one chapter (or verse) at a time, by the way, as you can specify a range of verses in the (experimental) browser I have referred to above.

take care,
Brett

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:49 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but were there not Christians actually waiting on the mountain awaiting Christ in 1844, but they missed Baha'u'llah completely even though He was very close to them? Also, did not some prominent Christians foretell the year 1844 as being Christ's return mathematically? I remember something like this from a youth conference long ago. Can anyone refresh me?

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Who cares ?

Postby majnun » Sat Sep 10, 2005 12:22 am

This topic about the return is not very important.
The Iqan talks a bit about it.
Applying the teachings inside your inner and external
life will produce fruits. Talking about the return of prophets
brings only confusion and bla bla bla.

I know a young baha'i teacher who preaches that our
teachings ameliorate our conscious contact with God
(a line borrowed from the A.A. actually).
There is no contacts with any divinity in Baha'i teachings.

Who cares about the return of mister Jesus, mister Muhammad,
mister Eli, mister Moses, if not f***ed up intellectuals filled with words.

The message is important, not (divinising) the messenger.

MJ.

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Re: Who cares ?

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sat Sep 10, 2005 7:15 pm

majnun wrote:Who cares about the return of mister Jesus, mister Muhammad, mister Eli, mister Moses, if not [expletive deleted] up intellectuals filled with words."


Who cares? How about all the Christians that are awaiting the return of Christ, or how about the Buddhists awaiting Maitreya, for example? Abdu'l-Baha says that Baha'is should learn proofs so that they may go out and produce them to non-Baha'is, as a way of teaching. Your post certainly does not reflect the Baha'i position, or even an informed position at that.

Another thing: No one is awaiting the return of "mister Muhammad" and others you mentioned, even though you were being sarcastic. They are expecting the return of twelfth Imam, which is the Bab. So obviously if you convince a Mulsim that the twelfth Imam has indeed return, he will most likely convert to the Baha'i Faith. So, how are proofs irrelevant again?

Guest

Postby Guest » Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:13 am

To the question of clouds, refer to The Kitáb-i´-Íqan

"By these luminous, these conclusive, and lucid statements, the meaning of "heaven" in the aforementioned verse hath thus been made clear and evident. And now regarding His words, that the Son of man shall "come in the clouds of heaven." By the term "clouds" is meant those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Even as He hath revealed in the verse already quoted: "As oft as an Apostle cometh unto you with that which your souls desire not, ye swell with pride, accusing some of being impostors and slaying others."2 These "clouds" signify, in one sense, the annulment of laws, the abrogation of former Dispensations, the repeal of rituals and customs current "
page 79

Bahá'u'lláh encourages us to please refer to the Word of God when trying to understand spiritual realities. Kitáb-i-Íqán pages 14-89 deal with this topic.


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