Essence knowable?

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Augustine
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Essence knowable?

Postby Augustine » Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:31 pm

In the Short Obligatory Prayer we read that man was created to “know Thee [God] and worship Thee [God].” Yet Abdu’l-Baha in Some Answered Questions clearly states that man’s so-called “knowledge” of God is significantly limited, and explicitly states that God’s Essence/Reality is unknowable. (see pp. 220-222.)

By way of illustration Abdu’l-Baha stated:

As our knowledge of things, even of created and limited things, is knowledge of their qualities and not of their essence, how is it possible to comprehend in its essence the Divine Reality, which is unlimited? For the inner essence of anything is not comprehended, but only its qualities. For example, the inner essence of the sun is unknown, but is understood by its qualities, which are heat and light. (p. 220.)


Now for my question: given our current knowledge of physics, is it now more accurate to say that we actually do know “the inner essence of the sun”?

Aug

Guest

Postby Guest » Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:42 am

Hello, Good thinking!!

The only way to know God is through the Manifestants, Their teachings...

A human bein never could understand your Creator, like a picture dont understand his Painter. Sure it´s impossible to compare with anything with this world.
I think the "inner essence of the sun" was unknow in that time, but the same way, we know the Sun is made with fusing atoms of hydrogen that becomes helium...but we still cannot understand, for example, what keeps the atoms together, or what made that eletrons spin around the nucleus...what energy is this? For now, maybe this can be the "inner essence" of things...and is still unknown....but we know that exists, we do not feel, and cannot see, but with our theory we know is something like... now answering your question:
Now for my question: given our current knowledge of physics, is it now more accurate to say that we actually do know “the inner essence of the sun”? I think depends of the point view of "inner essence"...so still do not know the absolute essence...

I hope someone can help you and also me in this question :D

Bye =))

Guest

Postby Guest » Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:40 am

Hi, its just a comparation...
Even so the essence of the sun was not comprehended, only it qualities; like the essence of God, is dont comprehended, only the signs...

Yes, maybe the essence of Sun has been discovered...however its not possible understand essence of God.
Bye!

majnun
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Postby majnun » Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:59 am

This way of thinking is an error.
One day we will be "gods", immortal beings.
And we can now understand the scientific knowledge
given to us, drop by drop, by the Scriptures.

To exclude the possibility of a direct (or written) contact
with those who created us, is being narrow minded.

Majnun

nameless
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Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:25 am

ummm...

Postby nameless » Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:25 am

<<--This way of thinking is an error.-->>

#1. so u are an absolute judge who decides which ways are errors(?)

<<--One day we will be "gods", immortal beings.-->>

#2. how do u define 'gods' that u qualify humans as being able to become 'gods'. being immortal is not being god, though the reverse is applicable.

<<--And we can now understand the scientific knowledge
given to us, drop by drop, by the Scriptures.-->>

#3. then do collect the drops and expound abdulbaha's assertion.

majnun
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Over divinising is a distortion

Postby majnun » Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:04 pm

I meant :
to insert the word God and so many divinising terms
everywhere they can in the scriptures, like in some translations,
it is a distortion and a malady of this century.

Men do not have to put the knee down in front of anyone, and some men
see the benefits of obediance (to put in application) the
nice gifts from Above, and they apply them in their daily lives.

Majnun

nameless
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Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:25 am

ummm..

Postby nameless » Sat Dec 03, 2005 5:16 am

<<--to insert the word God and so many divinising terms
everywhere they can in the scriptures, like in some translations,
it is a distortion and a malady of this century. -->>

#1. that seems to be a malady of every age. :-)

majnun
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Postby majnun » Sat Dec 03, 2005 8:52 pm

Yep. I wondered last year how come
I counted only 19 word Allah in the 7 valleys (original text),
and more than half are in citations, and how come
Gail-Khan inserted 45 words God in the english
version, and how come monsieur Dreyfuss came out
with 51 words "Dieu" in his french version, compared
to only 19 in the original.
This is mind boggling.

It is a fact that Messenger Baha'u'llah does not
incist much to talk about this gentlemen (Allah)
so often, except in the imagination of translators
of the early century, this word (God) seems to pop-up
everywhere. Compare and be convinced.

Majnun.

nameless
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:25 am

ummm...

Postby nameless » Sun Dec 04, 2005 4:26 am

<<--It is a fact that Messenger Baha'u'llah does not
incist much to talk about this gentlemen (Allah)
so often, except in the imagination of translators
of the early century, this word (God) seems to pop-up
everywhere. Compare and be convinced. -->>

#1. i will take ur word that bahaullah does not use the word allah much, but his very name: bahaullah.

#2. again, if not allah, does he use some other words to refer to the very same allah whose manifest glory he claimed to be. is that different from talking about allah(?)

Guest

Postby Guest » Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:16 pm

Stop playing around child,
do something !

nameless
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Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:25 am

huh?

Postby nameless » Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:51 pm

<<--Stop playing around child, -->>

#1. u talking to me(?)

#2. then tell this child why he should not play around. :-( or are u 1 of those enlightened who would use 'child' for a lesser mortal like me. :-)

<<--do something !-->>

#3. hmmm.

Baha'i Warrior
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Re: Essence knowable?

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Tue Dec 06, 2005 4:54 pm

Augustine wrote:Now for my question: given our current knowledge of physics, is it now more accurate to say that we actually do know “the inner essence of the sun”?


I might be wrong, but what I think what the Master is saying is that we can never literally examine "the inner essence of the sun," but by the hydrogen, helium, and whatever elements that are given off we can draw the conclusion that the sun is make up of these constituents and there are certain chemical reactions going on inside of it, etc.

So in the same way we can know God by His virtues (which the Manifestations of God display), but we can never know exactly what God is. "No vision taketh in Him, but He taketh in all vision. He is the Subtile, the All-Perceiving" (Qur'án 6:103). He is like the sun, if we got to close to Him we'd vaporize, that is, if He reveals Himself to us. No one in this world or the other worlds of God will ever be able to know the "inner essence" of God. We might have a bit of a better idea after we die, but still will be very deficient in that respect.

Of course this is based on my limited knowledge, so someone with a better understanding of the Writings can add to it..


—Warrior

majnun
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Yes sir !

Postby majnun » Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:31 pm

yes, to you nameless.

get into it. Stop a-talkin'.,
and do it. Sit back and recite
slowly.

MJ.

nameless
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:25 am

sure...

Postby nameless » Thu Dec 08, 2005 3:18 pm

<<--get into it. Stop a-talkin'.,
and do it. Sit back and recite
slowly. -->>

#1. reciting: 'slowly', 'slowly', 'slowly'....'slowly' :p

Baha'i Warrior
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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:48 pm

namless, just wondering...

1. you believe in God

2. you claim that God is selfish because He wants us to worship Him

3. you believe there is an afterlife

and

4. you do not want to worship such a "selfish" Being

My question:

Ok, you win, God is "selfish," if you want to use that word. Let's say you are right. You do, however, believe in God and believe in the afterlife. My question.... don't you want to play by His rules? If He makes the rules, then don't you want to be on His good side? Especially if He is offering you everlasting life? Or would you exchange everlasting life for temporary independence? Remember: Yadolahi foga aydeehim!

nameless
Posts: 80
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well...

Postby nameless » Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:19 am

<<--1. you believe in God-->>

#1. yes

<<--2. you claim that God is selfish because He wants us to worship Him-->>

#2. its a combination of different factors. besides being 'selfish', it is 'unjust' too. :cry:

<<--3. you believe there is an afterlife-->>

#3. yes

<<--and

4. you do not want to worship such a "selfish" Being-->>

#4. well, knowing that this selfish and unjust god is also spiteful and avenging kind, and ofcourse almighty, i would be a bigger fool than i think i am if i be not wanting to worship such a god: i do want to, but i cannot bring myself to it. :-S


<<--Ok, you win, God is "selfish," if you want to use that word. Let's say you are right.-->>

#5. hmmm. god wont be mighty pleased that a believer has agreed with a disbeliever's view. maybe god does not see itself as selfish. in that case god will mark u out alongside me. :-(

<<--You do, however, believe in God and believe in the afterlife. My question.... don't you want to play by His rules? If He makes the rules, then don't you want to be on His good side?-->>

#6. i personally think god would lend more credence to kindness than rituals. so worshipping god when my deeds dont manifest obedience to it: such worship indeed semes wholly devoid of spirit to me. but (most) theists interpret worship of god in a manner different than mine.

#7. my words cannot hurt god, nor can my deeds hurt god, but my words and deeds can hurt the creation of god: then i think god would be atleast equally displeased with those who hurt its creation, because they actually hurt the other souls, but in attempting to ridicule god they do nothing but harm their own souls. i know there can be another way of looking at this, and like i have said before: i have not closed my mind to any view. :-)

#8. tell me, between us: what do u think which is more important: kindness or rituals(?) mind u, that does not mean 1 would be wholly unimportant, just which is more important(?)

<<--Especially if He is offering you everlasting life? Or would you exchange everlasting life for temporary independence?-->>

#7. like i said: what are the means of achieving this everlasting life. there are those who disregard the creation and think virtue is in their empty rituals :-S

<<--Remember: Yadolahi foga aydeehim!-->>

#8. i read somewhere: yodalahi maglulatun :-S

majnun
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Postby majnun » Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:42 am

Dear nameless friend;

when did you start taking risperdal ?

Or are you one of those on zyprexa ?

You should try Clozapine®, to help you touch
reality, and heal you inner things for good.

Are you in or out of an institution ?

What pills do you take ? Do you see may
spiders all at ounce ?

your friendly neighborhood
Majnun.

Baha'i Warrior
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Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
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Re: well...

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:30 pm

nameless wrote:#5. hmmm. god wont be mighty pleased that a believer has agreed with a disbeliever's view. maybe god does not see itself as selfish. in that case god will mark u out alongside me. :-(


actually, it was rhetorical. that's why i put the word "selfish" in quotes.



nameless wrote:#8. tell me, between us: what do u think which is more important: kindness or rituals(?) mind u, that does not mean 1 would be wholly unimportant, just which is more important(?)

<<--Especially if He is offering you everlasting life? Or would you exchange everlasting life for temporary independence?-->>

#7. like i said: what are the means of achieving this everlasting life. there are those who disregard the creation and think virtue is in their empty rituals :-S

<<--Remember: Yadolahi foga aydeehim!-->>

#8. i read somewhere: yodalahi maglulatun :-S


actually, i talked about this in another thread (where we are exchanging ideas). kindness is more important, but what do you mean by "ritual." If you mean, for example, prayer, you pray so that God may help you through tests. You pray to God so that He may make you more kind. Compared to Islam, the Baha'i Faith has way less "ritual," but has kept some especially for those coming from a Muslim background. But, for example, you can say the short obligatory prayer and so that you dont have to do the ablutions, etc, for the medium and long ones. It's all for your own good, really. but they both have the same effect i’d think. The Baha'i faith places an even stronger emphasis on kindness over ritual, trust me. :wink:

nameless
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:25 am

hmmm...

Postby nameless » Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:01 pm

<<--Dear nameless friend;

when did you start taking risperdal ?

Or are you one of those on zyprexa ?

You should try Clozapine®, to help you touch
reality, and heal you inner things for good.

Are you in or out of an institution ?

What pills do you take ? Do you see may
spiders all at ounce ?-->>

#1. i would like to congratulate u on this post. previously u would attempt something (sense) and end up learning that it was actually something else (nonsense). this time around u have attempted something (nonsense) and u find that it actually is the same thing (nonsense). so for the first time u have attempted something and perfectly succeeded. well, persistence does seem to pay off ;)

nameless
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:25 am

yeah...

Postby nameless » Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:26 pm

<<--actually, it was rhetorical. that's why i put the word "selfish" in quotes.-->>

#1. i should think so: which is why i used a s-a-d smiley. :p

<<--actually, i talked about this in another thread (where we are exchanging ideas). kindness is more important, but what do you mean by "ritual." If you mean, for example, prayer, you pray so that God may help you through tests. You pray to God so that He may make you more kind. Compared to Islam, the Baha'i Faith has way less "ritual," but has kept some especially for those coming from a Muslim background. But, for example, you can say the short obligatory prayer and so that you dont have to do the ablutions, etc, for the medium and long ones. It's all for your own good, really. but they both have the same effect i’d think. The Baha'i faith places an even stronger emphasis on kindness over ritual, trust me. Wink-->>

#2. that is interesting. i will look into that a bit more. about having same effect: i am not all that sure. :-S

#3. i really do not have the time and resources to invest in detailed talks, and in all probability this is my last post, atleast till things change and i am able to do so. i really had a nice time talking to all of u: u really have been kind and patient in putting up with my absurd posts. i hope v can live in peace and harmony, if not agreement, till the time the matter is decided. do have a blessed life and hereafter. :-)

Baha'i Warrior
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Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Fri Dec 09, 2005 6:05 pm

good luck

Guest

Postby Guest » Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:34 pm

nameless, just read the theory behind 'a course in miracles', it might answer some of your questions, it did for me. best wishes.

onepence

Re: well...

Postby onepence » Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:12 am

nameless wrote:<<--1. you believe in God-->>

#1. yes

<<--2. you claim that God is selfish because He wants us to worship Him-->>

#2. its a combination of different factors. besides being 'selfish', it is 'unjust' too. :cry:

<<--3. you believe there is an afterlife-->>

#3. yes

<<--and

4. you do not want to worship such a "selfish" Being-->>

#4. well, knowing that this selfish and unjust god is also spiteful and avenging kind, and ofcourse almighty, i would be a bigger fool than i think i am if i be not wanting to worship such a god: i do want to, but i cannot bring myself to it. :-S


<<--Ok, you win, God is "selfish," if you want to use that word. Let's say you are right.-->>

#5. hmmm. god wont be mighty pleased that a believer has agreed with a disbeliever's view. maybe god does not see itself as selfish. in that case god will mark u out alongside me. :-(

<<--You do, however, believe in God and believe in the afterlife. My question.... don't you want to play by His rules? If He makes the rules, then don't you want to be on His good side?-->>

#6. i personally think god would lend more credence to kindness than rituals. so worshipping god when my deeds dont manifest obedience to it: such worship indeed semes wholly devoid of spirit to me. but (most) theists interpret worship of god in a manner different than mine.

#7. my words cannot hurt god, nor can my deeds hurt god, but my words and deeds can hurt the creation of god: then i think god would be atleast equally displeased with those who hurt its creation, because they actually hurt the other souls, but in attempting to ridicule god they do nothing but harm their own souls. i know there can be another way of looking at this, and like i have said before: i have not closed my mind to any view. :-)

#8. tell me, between us: what do u think which is more important: kindness or rituals(?) mind u, that does not mean 1 would be wholly unimportant, just which is more important(?)

<<--Especially if He is offering you everlasting life? Or would you exchange everlasting life for temporary independence?-->>

#7. like i said: what are the means of achieving this everlasting life. there are those who disregard the creation and think virtue is in their empty rituals :-S

<<--Remember: Yadolahi foga aydeehim!-->>

#8. i read somewhere: yodalahi maglulatun :-S


an apple a day keeps the doctor away

lol

soooooooo oooooo

the snake sayssssssssssssssssss

taste this apple .... I say so ,,,,,,,

eve says nooooooooooooooooo ... my Lord forbade such a thing

that snake saysssssssssssssssssssssssss
my lord .... whom am I not to believe ..... for once though cans't thou, not He be in control ...... the apple is sssssssssoooo sweeeeeeeet ...... .... ....... be thou somebody take a bite ..... lol ......

eve says to adam ........... my lord take thou a bit

adam says ....... my Lord forbade such a thing

eve says ....... the apple is sssssssssoooo sweeeeeeeet ...... I have not would not will not decieve ...... sssssssssoooo sweeeeeeeet ......


<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>

call me selfish call me delusional call me imaginary
call me shadow call me light call me deciptive
call me blameworthy call me a pin head

call me

oneness
dh

Baha'i Warrior
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:33 pm

oneness are you okay man?

Guest

Postby Guest » Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:32 pm

Baha'i Warrior wrote:oneness are you okay man?


I guess I am just looking at the duality of man
and am finding the duality hidden everywhere

& sometimes I find it heard to know when to speak
&
when to be silient

I really am getting annoyed with a certain class of people
that appears to me to seek out the best and the brightest Baha'i
and try to bait them
get them trapped
& take them away from their original studies

personally I can not believe .... ... ...
well ... I guess I can have a little bit of wisdom
& sometimes self censor my thoughts & opinions ...

;>) <-- me chuckling

but dang it man ... I remember when I first was looking at being an apostle .... ... for me it is sort of like all or nothing .... ..... like standing in line at a gas store & the guy in front of you is buying a beer .... .... .... sometimes I have a complete urge to talk/yell at that individual .... ..... and then it goes even deeper like why would I even want to go to a store that makes significant revenue off of this beer & then its like I wanna talk/yell at the cashier .... .... and then its like ..... .....

well you get my drift ... it is very very very easy for me to get worked up over what some people would thing be trivial things .... ....

lol

anothere man's trash /// etc

but hey Baha'i warrior
I appreciate your time
&
tring to look after me

I have been through a lot
&
I do try to study/practice wisdom

don't need a lecture about that
if you know what I mean

so do stay in touch
& if you feel like I am a livin/a/preachin
to fast & furious for this forum/choir

please continue to speak up
& try to restore some harmony

imho
Abdu'l Baha' would want it that way

oneness
dh


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