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Relation between Seir and Jesus

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 5:19 am
by HuangRan
Deuteronomy 33:2 "And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them."

Here it is interpreted that "rose up from Seir" refers to Jesus. How could this be understood?


Re: Relation between Seir and Jesus

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:32 pm
by MontanaDon
My understanding is that this is an esoteric Muslim teaching used by Shaykh Ahmad.
It was believed that when Jesus went into the wilderness, it was on Mt Seir that He had His sanctification, that it was here after rejecting the offers of Satan that He "became" a Manifestation.
As to where it it, that depends on the commentator. It varies from southern Judea to northern Arabia, but is often located in southern Moab, the area east of the Dead Sea. This probably comes from a very old tradition that this was the "home" of the god YWH, a tradition even found in Egyptian materials. This is turn is consistent w/ the ancient idea that the gods had trouble coming all the way to earth and therefore stayed on mountain tops. It was most appropriate for man to go to the gods there than for the gods to come all the way down to man. So the Greek gods lived on Mt Olympus and Moses had His encounter on Mt Sinai. The location in Moab is not consistent w/ Christian tradition, which places the wilderness of Jesus' temptation on the west side of the Dead Sea at the north end.

Re: Relation between Seir and Jesus

Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:36 am
by HuangRan
Thank you MontanaDon.

As I know, Muslim commentators interprete "Sinai" as Moses, "Seir" as Jesus, and "Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them" as Muhammod. And some Baha'is see "he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them" as Baha'ullah.

Re: Relation between Seir and Jesus

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:06 am
by brettz9
Authoritative Baha'i confirmation of the interpretation does exist if you were not aware, Huang Ran. Shoghi Effendi indicates that Paran in this quote and elsewhere in the Bible refers to Muhammad's Revelation:

"References in the Bible to 'Mt. Paran' and 'Paraclete' refer to Muhammad's Revelation: Deuteronomy 33:2, Genesis 21:21, Numbers 12:16, Numbers 13:3."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to the National Spiritual Assembly of Australia and New Zealand, December 26, 1941, in Lights of Guidance, no. 1662)

'Abdu'l-Baha gives a reply regarding "Seir" in Selections:

"Thou didst write as to Seir. Seir is a locality near Nazareth in Galilee."

(Selections from the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Baha, section 145)

Regarding the location of the mountain, a very interesting response by MontanaDon... This article indicates that there were two Mount Seir's so perhaps that is a source of confusion?

"Ten thousands of saints" is referred to as Baha'u'llah in God Passes By, p. 94 and is also found in a provisional translation of Shoghi Effendi's Tablet of the Centennial at ... ennial.pdf (p. 23)

There is also apparent confirmation at ... 1.html#117

There is also this pilgrim's note attributed to Shoghi Effendi (bearing in mind that these notes have no binding authority to Baha'is, but may be of interest):

"In the Koran, the olive is symbolic of the Christian Dispensation, and the fig in the Mosaic Dispensation. In the Tablet of Lawh-i-Ra' to the Prime Minister of Turkey, Bahá'u'lláh said that "once We appeared as an olive tree and the Mount of Olives, or Zetah; and once We appeared as the fig." In another passage in the Koran, Muhammed swears by the fig and the olive, the Mosaic and Christian Dispensations, and by this noble city, which means Mecca. The Moslem Dispensation is not symbolized by a tree, but by a mountain...Mount Paran, near Sinai.

"Missionaries have derided Muhammed for saying that He was swearing by trees, whereas, in reality He meant Dispensations.

"All three mountains are mentioned in Deuteronomy... Mt. Siani, referring to Moses, Mt. Paran to Muhammed, and Mt. Sier to the Christian Dispensation and the ten thousand saints, and Mt. Carmel refers to Bahá'u'lláh."

(at )

and this one:

"There are many references to the coming of Muhammad, in both the Old and New Testament, Deuteronomy, Chapter 33, verse 2; "And He said, the Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; He shined forth from Mount Paran, and He came with ten thousands of Saints: from His right hand went a fiery law for them." "The Lord coming from Sinai" refers to the Mosaic dispensation. "Rose up from Seir unto them," refers to a mountain in Gallilee and means the Christian dispensation. "Shined forth from Mount Paran" refers to the Muhammadan dispensation; "and He came with ten thousands of Saints" is the Bahá'í dispensation. All references to Mount Paran refers to Muhammad. Paran is a mountain in Arabia. The word "Paraclete" also refers to Muhammad. Paraclete means "the Praiser" in Greek, and Muhammad means "the Praiser" in Arabic. Further references to Muhammad in the "Answered Questions," page 78, etc. Genesis, Chapter 21, verse 21: "And He dwelt in the Wilderness of Paran" refers to Muhammad. The Arabs are descendants of Ishmael, Numbers, Chapter 12, verse 16, "And afterwards the people removed from Hazeroth and pitched in the Wilderness of Paran," again in Numbers, Chapter 13, verse 3, the word Paran occurs. The wilderness of Paran is in Trans-Jordan. David could easily get to it. The reference in Deuteronomy is the most important reference, (Chapter 33, verse 2.) Genesis, Chapter 17, verse 20, "And as for Ishmael ... and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, etc." The twelve princes are the twelve Imams. Also in Deuteronomy, Chapter 18, verse 18, "I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren." This refers to their cousins, the Arabs, brethren meaning cousin here in relationship, and the prophet is Muhammad. If it had meant Christ it would have said, "seed" and not "brethren.""

(at (page 33), emphasis added)

You may also be interested in ... b/181.html which interprets a Hidden Word speaking of Mount Paran and the Covenant.

Wikipedia has articles on Paran and Seir.

Sorry for the disjointed grouping of information... A little occupied to do a better job of sifting...

Best wishes,

Re: Relation between Seir and Jesus

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:22 am
by MontanaDon
I find that there are some Muslim references, e.g. 10th cent C.E. Syrian poet Wawa Al-Dimashki, that identify the mount where Nazareth is built as Seir. But this appears to be based on the assumption that Seir is to be identified w/ Jesus and not because it was previously known as Mt Seir. I personally suspect Abdu'l-Baha was merely relating that tradition.

The Mt Seir near Hebron is more commonly associated w/ Jesus by Christians, but is also historically questionable.

Given this is a quote from Deuteronomy, I think the issue would be to determine what Seir referred to when it was being written, around 800BC. My suspicion is that it referred to all the generally mountainous area from Galilee to Arabia, both sides of Jordan, and that the "Mount" was added not to name a specific mountain, but to indicate an area appropriate to a god.

Don C

Re: Relation between Seir and Jesus

Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:07 am
by HuangRan
Thank you Brettz and Don.