teaching in the Holy Land

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Kristina

teaching in the Holy Land

Postby Kristina » Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:45 pm

I know that we are not allowed to teach our Faith in the Holy Land, so that - beside the staff members of the BWC - there is no Bahá'i-Community in Israel.

I heard that this was already restricted by Bahá'u'lláh Himself (or the Master or the Guardian???).
Does anybody know where I can find it in the Scriptures?

Thanks!
Kristina

oneboy

Postby oneboy » Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:43 am

Hi Kristina!

From what I know there is no explicit statement in the Writings, but only a tradition of behaving so.
I think, the BWC doesn't want to get involved into the religious troubles going on in the Holy Land.

What do you think?

Keyvan
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Postby Keyvan » Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:03 pm

it is a rule that Baha'u'llah established in the 1860's and carried through all this time.

we didnt know back then, just like we didnt know why we couldnt eat pork during the Dispensation of Muhammad.

there is no explicit reason why right now. but personally i think its pretty obvious that it would raise political tentions that would interfere with the Cause of God at large. that is, we are not in the Holy Land to start a colony, we are there for Administrative and Spiritual purposes.

thats my opinion.

Steph

Postby Steph » Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:26 am

Interesting, I never thought about it.

But do you really think that teaching the Bahai-Faith would would raise political tensions in Israel?
I mean, for us of course, Baha'u'llah is abouve all.
But to be honest: for the people in Israel, where there are so many religions, the Bahais are just one more.
Why should we cause any problems?

And isn't the message of Baha'u'llah - unity and world peace - exactly what the traumatized people of the Near East need?

Hm, obviously you are right, Keyvan.
Some things we just don't know yet why they were revealed.

Keyvan
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Postby Keyvan » Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:51 pm

Steph wrote:Interesting, I never thought about it.

But do you really think that teaching the Bahai-Faith would would raise political tensions in Israel?
I mean, for us of course, Baha'u'llah is abouve all.
But to be honest: for the people in Israel, where there are so many religions, the Bahais are just one more.
Why should we cause any problems?

And isn't the message of Baha'u'llah - unity and world peace - exactly what the traumatized people of the Near East need?

Hm, obviously you are right, Keyvan.
Some things we just don't know yet why they were revealed.


i think it would give us that political nature if we did. of all places, the last place where we would need the clerics and politicians attacking us is israel. it could also be for an even greater reason that has yet to manifest itself

in an untranslated persian book similar to "lights of Guidence" the Guardian explained that during fasting, if one travels, after they reach their destination they may wait 3 days before beginning to fast. my mom told me that back then people didnt know why, or what these 3 days were for...

now we know its jet lag. something that took years, even after the Guardians time to fully manifest itself

Hasan
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Postby Hasan » Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:02 am

The House says:

For your information, the people in Israel have access to factual information about the Faith, its history and general principles. Books concerning the Faith are available in libraries throughout Israel, and Israelis are welcome to visit the Shrines and the surrounding gardens. However, in keeping with a policy that has been strictly followed since the days of Bahá’u’lláh, Bahá’ís do not teach the Faith in Israel. Likewise, the Faith is not taught to Israelis abroad if they intend to return to Israel. When Israelis ask about the Faith, their questions are answered, but this is done in a manner which provides factual information without stimulating further interest.


I don't know the exact reason, but, if there were in Israel local and national institutions of the Faith these days, it would be a great deal... We can’t ignore the huge spiritual potential of spiritual and administrative centers of the Faith in Haifa and Akka; I think if bahá’ís teach Israelites, they could become bahá’ís quickly, but now, this is risky with the political uncertainty of the region. It seems that the affairs and geopolitics should be completely stable before begin the teach work.

This wrote the Guardian of the Faith:

"Regarding your question concerning the future of the Jews: They certainly have, as explicitly stated by the Master, a great spiritual destiny, and will gradually enter the Faith in large groups."


Some youth friends that were in service at the Bahá'í World Centre, told me that they feel near the day when Jews enter the Faith, but I think it couldn't be done before the end of Israel-Palestine-(Muslims) conflict and frontier tension. Moreover, I think that Israel will be the first "Bahá'í State", however, this will be gradual, Mr. Nakhjavani quote seven stages of a country before convert to a "Bahá'í State":

1) Obscurity
(ignorance of Bahá’í Faith’s existence)

2) Repression
(lack of freedom, violation of human rights)

3) Emancipation
(the faith is differentiated from other beliefs)

4) Recognition
(community’s status of legal permission to perform certain rites or administrative procedures)

5) State Religion
(official Religion of a given country, due to majority of a population)

6) The emergence of the Bahá'í State
(a merger between the civil system of government administration and the national bahá’í institutions)

7) Bahá'í Commonwealth
(Most Great Peace)

...Shoghi Effendi outlined seven stages for the onward march of the Faith in each country. I will mention the first four stages first. As you know they are: obscurity, repression, emancipation, and recognition. Stage one, which is obscurity, is clearly over throughout the world, as the House of Justice has also said. The Bahá'í community in Iran, as well as in a number of countries in the Muslim East, is at stage two, which is repression. Stage three, namely emancipation, is when the religious authorities in a country, as happened in Egypt, officially announce that since the Bahá'í Faith has laws and principles at variance with the canonical law of Islam, it can only be considered as an independent entity, not as a branch of the Muhammadan Faith. Stage four, namely recognition, is when the government in authority recognizes the Faith in accordance with its own legal system: this is when the Bahá'í community is given a status as a religious organization empowered to perform officially certain rites related to personal status, such as marriage. So far, this has been the highest form of recognition in any given country, as it represents the possession of a status equal to that enjoyed by other recognized religious communities. One or another of the first four stages could well be bypassed and has indeed been bypassed depending on the prevailing circumstances in any given country.

As to the last three stages, the fifth is the official acceptance of the Faith as the "State religion" of a nation- (ADJ p.12). The sixth stage is when there is a merger between the civil system of government administration and the national institutions of the Bahá'í Administrative Order. This sixth stage has been described by Shoghi Effendi as the emergence of the "Bahá'í State"-(ADJ p.12). The seventh stage is when the "Bahá'í State" of a given country joins hands with other Bahá'í states to form together the first Bahá'í Commonwealth of the future – a Commonwealth which will represent the initial stages of the Most Great Peace and will operate in accordance with the Laws and Principles enunciated by Bahá'u'lláh. As you can well realize, Bahá'ís in no single country have gone beyond stage four. This means that all national Bahá'í communities are developing slowly and sometimes painfully through the first four stages.

Kristina

Postby Kristina » Tue May 09, 2006 6:57 am

Thanks for all your answers!

I can follow your arguments and I think the same way.

But in a discussion with a non-bahai, israeli friend of mine she said that Bahá´is mainly don't teach because of an agreement the Guardian made with the local government: that the BWC was only allowed to be established if the Bahá'is did not try to spread the faith.

So I tried to proof that it has not (only?) this profan reason but also a spiritual one. But except personal explanations from single Bahá'is I didn't find any passage in the writing or statements.
Now finally I'm wondering, why such an important point which is connected with so many consequences is not beeing written anywhere.

Our discussion is still "statement against statement"...

Dawu d

Postby Dawu d » Wed May 10, 2006 3:58 am

I would be interested to see Baha's original statement, if there is one.

I wonder what geographical limits could have been meant? Obviously Israel did not exist back then. Haifa and Akka were part of...the Ottoman province of Syria? Or was it attached to Palestine yet? Since Baha DID try to promote himself in various Ottoman provinces, the restriction must be narrower than the entire Ottoman Empire.

Are Baha'is allowed to convert people in the Palestinian territories? Is there a Jordanian Baha'i community? Maybe the ban originally applied only to the Akka region...?

If he just used some phrase approximately translatable as "Holy Land," couldn't that just as easily be construed as appling to some other place? For instance the Hijaz, or the Iraqi shrine cities, or Shiraz perhaps.

A certain Bayani has asked why Baha'is have not extended the same courtesy to Iran, that they have to Israel.

Keyvan
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Postby Keyvan » Thu May 18, 2006 3:23 am

Dawu d wrote:I would be interested to see Baha's original statement, if there is one.

I wonder what geographical limits could have been meant? Obviously Israel did not exist back then. Haifa and Akka were part of...the Ottoman province of Syria? Or was it attached to Palestine yet? Since Baha DID try to promote himself in various Ottoman provinces, the restriction must be narrower than the entire Ottoman Empire.

Are Baha'is allowed to convert people in the Palestinian territories? Is there a Jordanian Baha'i community? Maybe the ban originally applied only to the Akka region...?

If he just used some phrase approximately translatable as "Holy Land," couldn't that just as easily be construed as appling to some other place? For instance the Hijaz, or the Iraqi shrine cities, or Shiraz perhaps.

A certain Bayani has asked why Baha'is have not extended the same courtesy to Iran, that they have to Israel.



i can see by the way you referred to Baha'u'llah that you have been reading azali litterature Dawud. no surprise you referred to a "Bayani"

this is what Baha'u'llah established in the 1860's, and it seems pretty clear. were not there for a colonial purpose, were there for an administration.

this is clear through the Tablet of Carmel.

thus, this does not apply to Iran, nor would it, or could it be similar in any way.

CJ
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Postby CJ » Thu May 18, 2006 1:28 pm

6) The emergence of the Bahá'í State
(a merger between the civil system of government administration and the national bahá’í institutions)

Huh?? What's going on with this?? I thought the stance of the Baha'i Faith was the separation of religion and politics

Keyvan
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Postby Keyvan » Fri May 19, 2006 10:23 pm

CJ wrote:6) The emergence of the Bahá'í State
(a merger between the civil system of government administration and the national bahá’í institutions)

Huh?? What's going on with this?? I thought the stance of the Baha'i Faith was the separation of religion and politics



politics refers to "old world politics;" the corrupt systems we have today, made up of people who what power, money, and the flatter their ego's, while the people suffer.

religion and state are not to be separated at all. in fact, thats the whole point to this Dispensation. this is the fulfillment of the prophecy of the Kingdom of God on Earth, the World Order of Baha'u'llah, the Mahdi's most just government on earth. its all about government.

the Baha'i institutitons will REPLACE these old world systems.

Keyvan
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Postby Keyvan » Fri May 19, 2006 10:24 pm


onepence
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Postby onepence » Fri May 26, 2006 3:14 am

I can forsee
that the ban of teaching in the holy land
may ... and i stress may lead
to those that call themselves American Baha'is
to be incarcerated in Akka near the tomb of Baha'u'llah

think about it
for it is my dying wish to be buried there

oneness
dh

brettz9
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Postby brettz9 » Fri May 26, 2006 11:29 am

It's true what Keyvan says, but it might be suitable to also consider this:

With political questions the clergy, however, have nothing to do! Religious matters should not be confused with politics in the present state of the world (for their interests are not identical).

(Paris Talks, p. 158)


The whole text gives further insight: http://www.bahai-library.org/writings/a ... ec-11.html

onepence
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Postby onepence » Fri May 26, 2006 11:59 am

brettz9 wrote: ...

The whole text gives further insight: http://www.bahai-library.org/writings/a ... ec-11.html


Excellent
sort of leads credance to
some thoughts I have been having
concerning the creation of
The Parliment of Religion
of which I would not attend
other than perhaps in a peripheral role
like selling lemanade & cookies
or perhaps silver and gold jewelry
to Her delegates

I can see it now
lol
the Kings sending some delegates
knowing full well
all they can do
is rubber stamp previously made decessions

anybody began to seriously trade the Iraqi dinar yet?

oneness
dh


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