Why were Baha'u'llah and The Bab so close together?

All research or scholarship questions
Zazaban
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Why were Baha'u'llah and The Bab so close together?

Postby Zazaban » Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:56 pm

I've been trying to figure out why Baha'u'llah was actually OLDER then the previous Manifestation, The Bab. I came up with two possible reasons.

* some massive shift in how society works in the years from 1844 to 1863.
*The Bab's mission was unfinished.

Someone please help!
Justice and equity are twin Guardians that watch over men. From them are revealed such blessed and perspicuous words as are the cause of the well-being of the world and the protection of the nations.
~ Bahá'u'lláh

onepence
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Postby onepence » Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:38 pm

Baha'u'llah
The Glory of God
He alone describes Himself

The Ancient of Days

so when one seeks out the chronological age
to place value upon a material thing
one must start at the beginning

The Word of God

oneness
the apostle dean

/////
///
/

in other words ... Baha'u'llah is more than just a mere elder of the Bab ... Baha'u'llah is the Father that Christ often reffered to and the "burning bush" that Moses conversed with on mt Sinai was also Baha'u'llah

The Ancient of Days

onepence
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Postby onepence » Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:50 pm

something about prophecy and fulfillment

like with the apperance of Baha'u'llah the prophetic age ended in we are now in the age of fulfillment ...

all Manifestations up to and including the Bab "prophecied" about another Revelation from God ... today Baha'u'llah fullfills all past prophecies and His Followers are only charged with living/witnessing/fullfilling/abding/ in/for/with/by The Word of God as revealed by Himself ....

in the name of the Father

oneness
the apostle dean

onepence
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Postby onepence » Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:32 pm

Unfolding Destiny

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/se/UD/u ... hlight#gr6

"Bahá’u’lláh is not the intermediary between other Manifestations and God. Each has His own relation to the Primal Source. But in the sense that Bahá’u’lláh is the greatest Manifestation to yet appear, the One who consummates the Revelation of Moses, He was the One Moses conversed with in the Burning Bush. In other words, Bahá’u’lláh identifies the glory of the God-Head on that occasion with Himself. No distinction can be made amongst the Prophets in the sense that They all proceed from one Source, and are of one essence. But Their stations and functions in this world are different."

~ Shoghi Effendi

brettz9
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Postby brettz9 » Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:49 pm

For at least one reason--it fulfilled prophecy:

...whilst conversing with the followers of the Faith, I was informed that the birthday of the Bab fell on the first day of the month of Muharram of the year 1235 A.H.(2) I realised that the day to which Haji Hasan-i-Nayini had referred did not correspond with this date, that there was actually a difference of two years between them. This thought sorely perplexed me. Long after, however, I met a certain Haji Mirza Kamalu'd-Din-i-Naraqi, who announced to me the Revelation of Baha'u'llah in Baghdad, and who shared with me a number of verses from the `Qasidiy-i-Varqa'iyyih' as well as certain passages of the Persian and Arabic `Hidden Words.' I was moved to the depths of my soul as I heard him recite those sacred words. The following I still vividly remember: `O Son of Being! Thy heart is my home; sanctify it for my descent. Thy spirit is my place of revelation; cleanse it for my manifestation. O Son of Earth! Wouldst thou have me, seek none other than me; and wouldst thou gaze upon my beauty, close thine eyes to the world and all that is therein; for my will and the will of another than I, even as fire and water, cannot dwell together in one heart.' I asked him the date of the birth of Baha'u'llah. `The dawn of the second day of Muharram,' he replied, `of the year 1233 A.H.'(1) I immediately remembered the words of Haji Hasan and recalled the day on which they were spoken. Instinctively I fell prostrate on the ground and exclaimed: `Glorified art Thou, O my God, for having enabled me to attain unto this promised Day. If now I be called to Thee, I die content and assured.'" That very year, the year 1274 A.H.,(2) that venerable and radiant soul yielded his spirit to God.

(Dawn-Breakers, p. 8-9)


The date of His birth confirmed the truth of the prophecy traditionally attributed to the Imam Ali: "I am two years younger than my Lord."

(Dawn-Breakers, p. 72)


The date of His birth confirmed the truth of the saying attributed to the Imam Ali, the Commander of the Faithful: "I am two years younger than my Lord." The mystery of this utterance, however, remained unrevealed except to those who sought and recognised the truth of the new Revelation.

(Dawn-Breakers, p. 14)


This issue (in connection with a Tablet of the Báb) also served as a test for some Bábís. At least 3 paragraphs of the Kitáb-i-Aqdas (Most Holy Book) deal with answering their objections:

In this verse and the ones which immediately follow it, Bahá'u'lláh confronts one of the reasons some of the Bábís rejected His claim to be the Promised One of the Bayán. Their rejection was based on a Tablet addressed by the Báb to "Him Who will be made manifest" on the reverse side of which the Báb had written: "May the glances of Him Whom God shall make manifest illumine this letter at the primary school." This Tablet is published in Selections from the Writings of the Báb.
These Bábís maintained that, since Bahá'u'lláh was two years older than the Báb, it was not possible for Him to receive this Tablet "at the primary school".
Bahá'u'lláh here explains that the reference is to events transpiring in the spiritual worlds beyond this plane of existence.

(Notes to the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, 185)

Zazaban
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Postby Zazaban » Fri Jun 23, 2006 7:35 pm

Oh dear. I don't think i was understood.

why did Baha'u'llah come so close after The Bab?
Justice and equity are twin Guardians that watch over men. From them are revealed such blessed and perspicuous words as are the cause of the well-being of the world and the protection of the nations.

~ Bahá'u'lláh

onepence
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Postby onepence » Sat Jun 24, 2006 7:32 am

Zazaban wrote:Oh dear. I don't think i was understood.

why did Baha'u'llah come so close after The Bab?


I think the question has been answered
at least I am satisfied with my answer
being The reason why did Baha'u'llah come so close after The Bab
was fulfilment of prophecy ... specifically of the Babs' prophecy concerning the year nine

however

i think Zazaban is trying to ask "What is the significance of"
"Baha'u'llah come{ing} so close after The Bab"
and that is a different type of question
and one that has not been answered
or at least not been answered to my satisfaction.

The best that can be said, at this time concerning "the significance of ..." is the Baha'i community has of yet not any western believers to expand/expound upon this theme ...

Zazaban is making an effort to help in this matter with his ascertation of
"* some massive shift in how society works in the years from 1844 to 1863.
*The Bab's mission was unfinished." ... but this ascertation, however comendable, is still a very rudimentary explanation of the true "significance"

From my little bit of understanding of how members of the Baha'i community find true "significance" is in the individual{s}/community{ies} approach to understanding and abiding by Baha'i Law whose basis is THE KITIB-I-AQDAS and it is there and only there that we should first look, for true "significance" therefore I offer you some personal insight into more about the what the true "significance" of why did Baha'u'llah come so close after The Bab ...

one idea being that of allowing the Baha'i community to develop both social and scientific theories/applications into the concept of "time" itself.
for example, interesting enough, the second question asked and answered in THE KITIB-I-AQDAS deals with the significance of the Festival of the Twin Birthdays

2. QUESTION: Concerning the Festival of the Twin Birthdays.

ANSWER: The Birth of the Abhá Beauty was at the hour of dawn on the second day of the month of Muharram, the first day of which marketh the Birth of His Herald. These two days are accounted as one in the sight of God.

There is also the following guidance from The Universal House of Justice

"Given that the Bahá’í calendar (see notes 26 and 147) is a solar calendar, it remains for the Universal House of Justice to determine whether the Twin Holy Birthdays are to be celebrated on a solar or lunar basis."

therefore it is very clear that tremendous importance is placed upon the time/timing of the Twin Birthdays.

THE KITIB-I-AQDAS also states "All Feasts have attained their consummation in the two Most Great Festivals, and in the two other Festivals that fall on the twin days."

it remains to be seen how the Baha'i community will attach significance to the statement but suffice it to say that if Ridvan is a current example of how the followers of Baha'u'llah celebrate "the two Most Great Festivals" then surely in the future great importance will be placed upon "the two other Festivals".

oneness
the apostle dean

brettz9
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Postby brettz9 » Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:54 am

Here is one quotation I think is in more direct reply to your question:

"The short duration of His Dispensation, the restricted range within which His laws and ordinances have been made to operate, supply no criterion whatever wherewith to judge its Divine origin and to evaluate the potency of its message. "That so brief a span," Bahá'u'lláh Himself explains, "should have separated this most mighty and wondrous Revelation from Mine own previous Manifestation, is a secret that no man can unravel and a mystery such as no mind can fathom. Its duration had been foreordained, and no man shall ever discover its reason unless and until he be informed of the contents of My Hidden Book."

(World Order of Bahá'u'lláh, pp. 123-124)


I think it may also testify to the greatness of this Age that the earth has been blessed with two successive Manifestations of God. I think this is what Onepence was hitting on as well. As its duration was "foreordained", I'm not sure we can really say the Báb's mission was "unfinished" (as it did fill its mission), but on the other hand, He is considered the "Prophet-Herald", preparing people for Bahá'u'lláh, so in this sense Bahá'u'lláh "completed" what the Báb began (Bahá'ú'lláh's Kitáb´-i-Íqán is considered to be the "completion" of the Báb's Bayán).

As far as the massive shift in society--we view that it was Their coming that caused the massive shift. They came at a time when the world was stuck in a relative stagnancy--thus the need for a renewal of Revelation.

best wishes,
Brett

onepence
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Postby onepence » Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:51 am

never heard the phrase
the Kitáb´-i-Íqán is the "completion" of the Bayán
but i like it ... so much knowledge ...
it really makes me wonder where people have studied
like who orginally said the Kitáb´-i-Íqán is the "completion" of the Bayán
must have done some real in depth study ... i mean granted once it is said that phrase rings true {in my heart} ... but wow ...
the "completion" of the Bayán is no small feat ...


just as side note
I was sort of perusing, on line, the Kitáb´-i-Íqán last night
was looking at the word "truth" through out His Writings
and was gratifyed to know how much Baha'u'llah indicates the "truth"
in all religious Scripture is {to be} respected and even single outs the Qur’án as a standard that must be recognized if one is to triumphantly "acknowledge the truth" the exact quote is as follows

"For it is evident that whoso hath failed to acknowledge the truth of the Qur’án hath in reality failed to acknowledge the truth of the preceding Scriptures."

which kinda makes me wonder how much just this one phrase
is influencing our contemporary global society ...
i mean as a whole christian and jews seem to have a hard time grasping the need for the Qur’án in modern day thought ... and how "the truth of the Qur’án" is being "taught"{{?!??!}} through out the global landscape ...

interesting enough ... if one studies "truth" long enough ... there are many a plenty of pleasant surprises to be found

which kinda brings me back full circle
to how much i like the personal truth i found in the phrase
the Kitáb´-i-Íqán is the "completion" of the Bayán
for it was pure joy to read it
and therefore i feel indebted to brettz9 for bringing it to my attention
and "acknowledge the truth" that his thoughts on this forum is greatly appreciated.

oneness
the apostle dean

Zazaban
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Postby Zazaban » Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:13 pm

onepence wrote:never heard the phrase
the Kitáb´-i-Íqán is the "completion" of the Bayán
but i like it ... so much knowledge ...
I think it's in Wikipedia's article on the bayan...

brettz9
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Postby brettz9 » Fri Jun 30, 2006 2:49 am

Hello Onepence,

Glad to hear the reference was of interest. It is always a source of joy to see people exploring the Writings in more depth and with a spiritual thirst.

Here is the source of the quote:

Foremost among the priceless treasures cast forth from the billowing ocean of Bahá'u'lláh's Revelation ranks the Kitáb-i-Iqán (Book of Certitude), revealed within the space of two days and two nights, in the closing years of that period (1278 A.H.--1862 A.D.). It was written in fulfillment of the prophecy of the Báb, Who had specifically stated that the Promised One would complete the text of the unfinished Persian Bayán...

(Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 138)


In doing the search for the quote, I see that the completed work has also been mistakenly mentioned by some as being the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, apparently because both books deal with laws.

all the best,
Brett

Dorumerosaer
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Postby Dorumerosaer » Tue Aug 15, 2006 5:54 pm

The proximity of the Revelations of the Bab and Baha'u'llah was prophecied in the Bible. `Abdu'l-Baha explains in Some Answered questions, page 56 that the "Second Woe" promised in the Revelation of John was the Bab, and the Third Woe was Baha'u'llah. The short duration between them was promised in this verse: "The Third Woe cometh quickly."

Pilgrimbrent

Zazaban
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Postby Zazaban » Tue Aug 15, 2006 5:59 pm

pilgrimbrent wrote:The proximity of the Revelations of the Bab and Baha'u'llah was prophecied in the Bible. `Abdu'l-Baha explains in Some Answered questions, page 56 that the "Second Woe" promised in the Revelation of John was the Bab, and the Third Woe was Baha'u'llah. The short duration between them was promised in this verse: "The Third Woe cometh quickly."

Pilgrimbrent
I've just now started reading some answered questions! no spoiling!

P.S. in case you take offence, I am joking.
Justice and equity are twin Guardians that watch over men. From them are revealed such blessed and perspicuous words as are the cause of the well-being of the world and the protection of the nations.

~ Bahá'u'lláh

brettz9
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Postby brettz9 » Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:58 am

I've just now started reading some answered questions! no spoiling!


Lol...Maybe we'll have to put thte words "spoiler" in front of quotations... :)

Brett

Zazaban
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Postby Zazaban » Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:34 pm

brettz9 wrote:
I've just now started reading some answered questions! no spoiling!


Lol...Maybe we'll have to put thte words "spoiler" in front of quotations... :)

Brett
On some sites there are spoiler tags. but they just moved to vbulliten so they don't have it anymore :(
Justice and equity are twin Guardians that watch over men. From them are revealed such blessed and perspicuous words as are the cause of the well-being of the world and the protection of the nations.

~ Bahá'u'lláh


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