Thoughts on real, obtainable experiences of spiritual unity

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Baha'i Warrior
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Re: THOUGHTS ON REAL, OBTAINABLE EXPERIENCES OF SPIRITUAL UN

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:40 am

richard wrote:He is the One and Only God and Father of us all and our love for Him should stay us from arguing among ourselves like spoiled, spirit deficient children... richard


Richard, no one was arguing in the other thread. We were exchanging ideas. You don't think it is necessary for one to belong to a religion (to worship God), but people who don't agree with you and give valid reasons for their opinions is not called "arguing."

richard wrote:please consider the following spiritual thoughts and insights into spiritual truth...

"I do not desire that social harmony and fraternal peace shall be purchased by the sacrifice of free personality and spiritual originality. What I require of you, my apostles, is spirit unity--and that you can experience in the joy of your united dedication to the wholehearted doing of the will of my Father in heaven."


I wonder what prompted you to write this, as we fully believe in these wise words of Jesus'. "Unity" is the word that sums up the Baha'i Faith in fact. Our teachings are in total accord with these.

richard wrote:You do not have to see alike or feel alike or even think alike in order spiritually to be alike. Spiritual unity is derived from the consciousness that each of you is indwelt, and increasingly dominated, by the spirit gift of the heavenly Father. Your apostolic harmony must grow out of the fact that the spirit hope of each of you is identical in origin, nature, and destiny.


The Baha'i writings also teach that we should have unconditional love for our fellow man. We should love anyone, no matter what his creed or other belief system may be. Our discussion in the other thread was not in disharmony with this principle (if you feel otherwise, please cite specific examples).

Sorry, I really don't get how the topic of this thread is connected to the thread we were previously posting in. :-?

Take care.

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The topic reminded me of this quote

Postby FruccalFrilia » Sat Jan 06, 2007 11:12 pm

"the wayfarer cometh to the Valley of Unity and drinketh from the cup of the Absolute, and gazeth on the Manifestations of Oneness. In this station he pierceth the veils of plurality, fleeth from the worlds of the flesh, and ascendeth into the heaven of singleness. With the ear of God he heareth, with the eye of God he beholdeth the mysteries of divine creation. He steppeth into the sanctuary of the Friend, and shareth as an intimate the pavilion of the Loved One. He stretcheth out the hand of truth from the sleeve of the Absolute; he revealeth the secrets of power. He seeth in himself neither name nor fame nor rank, but findeth his own praise in praising God. He beholdeth in his own name the name of God; to him, "all songs are from the King,""
-Baha'u'llah, The Seven Valleys

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Postby dyesneancyDex » Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:10 am

Allah'u'abha friends,


a few comments from someone,

When a member of a social religious group has complied with the requirements of such a group, he should be encouraged to enjoy religious liberty in the full expression of his own personal interpretation of the truths of religious belief and the facts of religious experience.


diversity can lead to conflict due to authoratative(f7) ambiguties. hence the master, the guardian and the UHJ.

the cure to disunity is an established truth and consultation


__
2+2=4 always

pie is always 3.14

if we disagree about such things one of us is incorrect, and the other needs guide his counterpart to the truth for the benifit of the ignorant not the pride of the benifactor(f7).

spirit unity--and that you can experience in the joy of your united dedication to the wholehearted doing of the will of my Father in heaven

inHo what has happened is the educator has entered the building to correct our spiritual equations.

we have in our hands a "clean copy" form wich to work from so that our consultations can be fruitful

The true seeker hunteth naught but the object of his quest, and the lover hath no desire save union with his beloved. Nor shall the seeker reach his goal unless he sacrifice all things. That is, whatever he hath seen, and heard, and understood, all must he set at naught, that he may enter the realm of the spirit, which is the City of God. Labor is needed, if we are to seek Him; ardor is needed, if we are to drink of the honey of reunion with Him; and if we taste of this cup, we shall cast away the world.

(Baha'u'llah, The Seven Valleys, p. 5)



i'm not sure if this is the type of thoughts you were looking for but whoop! there it is!


btw, where did you get the quotes form Jesus?

thanks
donald

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Postby dyesneancyDex » Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:41 am

after waking up i believe that i was not completly clear,

1+1+1+1=4
0.5+0.5+1+0.25+0.75+(10-9)=4
(225/25) - (3080/616)=4


2+3=4 ? i think not

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:24 pm

someone wrote:diversity can lead to conflict due to authoratative(f7) ambiguties. hence the master, the guardian and the UHJ.

the cure to disunity is an established truth and consultation


Well said, Donald. If I may add to that—if there is only One God, and there are only His Truths (and no other "truths"), then one must ask himself: how does God relay His truths to man? Religion. And is there more than one religion? Yes. And is religion progressive? Yes. So does that mean that the most recent of God's Religions contain His most recent intercourse with man via His Manifestation? Yes. So, then, are we not better off pledging allegiance to God's Manifestation for this Day (if one believes in God, then the answer has to be "yes" since His Manifestation reflects all of God's perfections and virtues)?

Sorry, but I got to use the popular Baha'i school metaphor again. If you have graduated from college, and you want to become a M.D., which is a better and more surer approach of gaining all the knowledge you need to become a doctor?

a) Go back to kindergarten and learn "truths" there (A, B, C, D...)?

b) Go back to fifth grade and learn about chlorophyll?

c) Stay in college and take a human anatomy course?

d) Go to medical school and take the advanced courses (including anatomy) that will prepare you for becoming a medical doctor?

It would seem to us strange if someone picked anything other than (d), but with religion it is not so obvious. If the response was obvious, then everyone would instantly recognize the Truth and there wouldn't be any point to life.

someone wrote:2+2=4 always

pie is always 3.14

if we disagree about such things one of us is incorrect, and the other needs guide his counterpart to the truth for the benifit of the ignorant not the pride of the benifactor(f7).


Exactly. It is not that we think we are "superior" for being Baha'is, and thus must make you join our "superior" religion. We are only doing what human beings have been doing from time immemorial (via God's instructions), that is, proclaiming God's New Message to mankind—awakening people from their spiritual slumber. For surely God's New Message is more relevant than His Old One. If this were not true, then God wouldn't need to correspond to man any more since He's got enough Messages out there, and let man take care of himself. Can man take care of himself though? Can he say, "There are enough spiritual truths available to me; I don't need any more to know my Creator"? This is what the fifth grader says to his parents each night about school, but grown-ups know better. And indeed our Father, God, knows better than His children, though we ourselves may think we "have it all down."

someone wrote:inHo what has happened is the educator has entered the building to correct our spiritual equations.

we have in our hands a "clean copy" form wich to work from so that our consultations can be fruitful


Vagueness won't get us anywhere, and it will never unify man into one united way of thinking. Man has to realize that there is only One God, and that all His Truths, including both the old and the new, may be found in His most recent correspondence with humanity. A learned and unprejudiced person will immediately agree with this logic. Thus, the only question now becomes: which is God's most recent Manifestation? Baha'is think it's Baha'u'llah.

someone wrote:
The true seeker hunteth naught but the object of his quest, and the lover hath no desire save union with his beloved. Nor shall the seeker reach his goal unless he sacrifice all things. That is, whatever he hath seen, and heard, and understood, all must he set at naught, that he may enter the realm of the spirit, which is the City of God. Labor is needed, if we are to seek Him; ardor is needed, if we are to drink of the honey of reunion with Him; and if we taste of this cup, we shall cast away the world.

(Baha'u'llah, The Seven Valleys, p. 5)


A very powerful passage indeed. One such "sacrifice" that we need to make in our quest for Truth is that of all we have "seen, and heard, and understood," because what we may have "understood" to be correct, or to be the truth, may in the end have to be revised, or indeed reinvented.

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:27 pm

Richard,

Who has "problems balancing theological thought and spiritual truth and experience"? Those who are aware of and submit to God's new Truths, or those who don't?

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Postby dyesneancyDex » Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:32 pm

richard wrote:Hello Donald,

Thank you for your comments on Jesus' statements from the Urantia Book.



this http://www.urantia.org/about.html?

uhmmm, if so are we talking about aliens finding new sayings of jesus?

if so i have some suggested reading: isaiah 2:8


i am not sure what you meant by this please elaborate

Indeed, they all look balanced and equal except the last one which you recognized as unequal. Your math seems fine, but as many do, we may have problems balancing theological thought and spiritual truth and experience... We will see...


thanks ahead of time.
donald

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tauhid means unification, consolidation

Postby majnun » Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:03 am

Dear Richard:
What are you looking for in this spiritual search ?

I see the term Unification is an inner process, a brain
re-enforcement, and not a communication with some external entities.

MJ.

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no title

Postby majnun » Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:53 am

Dear Richard;
Well, let's say, you are still searching.

MJ

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Re: Still Searching...

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:19 am

richard wrote:That is, the more we seek, find, and do God’s Will in all our relationships with others, the more we can help, rather than hurt, them.


What is "God's Will"? More specifically, what is His Will for Today, according to you? Is it to finally unify all people via His current spiritual Truths found in the Baha'i writings, or is there some other source that you go to to find out what God's Will is? Or do you maybe meditate, and from that come to some understanding yourself? I'd think that God's Will would be more specific and obvious than abstruse. I'd be interested to know what you think...

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Postby FruccalFrilia » Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:19 pm

richard, great points. I agree that spirituality cannot be totally defined as set points put together in a mathematical equation for a spiritual result. and that excessive focus on theological arguments can have a tendency to stifle the living and organic nature of spiritual growth. I believe we as humans also need concepts and lines drawn to help us understand that there is a bigger picture and to tell us where certain things may lie in the greater framework of God. Sharing spiritual concepts can be like standining in a desert showing someone seawater to prove to them the existence and importance of the ocean. In that sense each person has to find out if that seawater is indeed part of a vast ocean.

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:27 am

richard wrote:That is, it is His Will that we relate to and treat others with the love, goodness, patience, kindness, peacefulness, faithfulness, self-control, and humility that God shows us.


Do you have a source? Is that source perhaps the saying of a Prophet, who was sent to us by God so that we could know what God's Will is? How would we know His will without the Prophets?

And if He sent Prophets, will He still send more? And if so, won't their Message provide us with a better understanding of God's Will for the Age in which they are sent?

richard wrote:And indeed, he wants us to freely and creatively do his will according to the above principles as best we can from our hearts, minds, souls, our thinking, feelings, and doings, not as robots, puppets, or parrots following complicated technical instructions.


Is this something God told you personally, or is this how you personally feel God thinks? If you insult religion by referring to it as "complicated technical instructions" and its adherents "as robots, puppets, or parrots," then you are insulting God more than you are insulting those who obey His commandments and sacrifice their lives in His path. Because it is His intention that we follow His Commandments/Ordinances and His Will for the Age as outlined by His Manifestation. His Messengers do not give "complicated technical instructions"—far from it; many an ignorant man was able to follow the instructions "to a T," while the most learned of their fellow human beings failed to do so, and their humiliation was evident in this life.

richard wrote:Spiritual love is living love, not a mechanical and thoughtless behavior without spiritual principles and foundations...


So according to you, those who follow God's commands are not capable of "spiritual love" because by following God's commandments they are somehow turned into mindless robots?

"Religion" indeed can turn people into robots when its relevance is gone. But those without religion can also become robots, following their own heedless inclinations and living worse off than animals—can you get more "robot" than that? Really, you shouldn't generalize religious people as spiritually emotionless robots based on your experience with some (radical) Christians or whoever you deride.

richard wrote:hope that adds a little spiritual substance to our hunger and ability to increasingly learn, know, and do his will... richard, past my bedtime and heading to the bedding... ZZZzzz...


I was full long before I asked the question. In fact bursting. Are you hungry, Richard? God's will for us Today is a lot to chew on, you'll get your fill my friend. Think of it as a spiritual $5.99 chinese buffet. With no M.S.G.

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:51 pm

richard wrote:Our One & Only God of all of us is our Perfect Authority on all Truth, Love, and Goodness; but, He is not an authoritarian dictator. He will not use coercion, or violate our free wills, in the short run, even if we go against His Will because of our ignorance or our selfishness.


Many people seem to have the notion that if God gives us Laws and Commandments, that automatically makes Him "an authoritarian dictator." Notice, however, that there is a distinction between "authoritarian" and "authoritative," and an authoritative style is loving and warm, yet firm (Commandments and Ordinances). Yet some people do not want to follow God's laws, because they don't want to make any real sacrifices in God's path.

Richard, many days have passed since the "love thy neighbor" era. This is the Day of action—not plain "Jesus/God loves you" talk. We are held to higher standards. Unification of the human race (God's Will for Today) won't come about by talking about God's goodness, forgiveness, benevolence, and just sitting on our behinds and thinking happy thoughts. Sure, we are to love and worship God, but how do we worship Him? By ignoring His Will for us, but still holding on to our fantasy, custom made perception of God?

richard wrote:So then, we need to understand that when He tells us to love one another we know that must be good, indeed His Will! or He would not tell us to love each other. In line with that He also tells us to do good on to others and commends us to be faithful, patient, peaceful, kind, and self-controlled in our relationships with each other, again a very clear, even explicit clue to His Will.


Richard, since when is our saying "God tells us to love one another" changing anything? Are the billions of humans going to open their Bibles or go on this forum and see the words "God wants you to love others" going to change anything? Is that going to strike a chord? I think not, we see the world disintegrating day by day. Man now needs more guidance. He needs new teachings. During Jesus' time, we weren't this interconnected, we didn't have wireless internet or televisions. This is a new Day that needs new Guidance if it is to survive, and it is our job to firmly adhere to God's Will, announce His glad tidings, and carry out His ordainment.

richard wrote:Indeed, in many ways i suspect you are already doing His Will as described above, and perhaps do not realize it.


I'm a Baha'i and I know what His Will is (via Baha'u'llah). I cannot say I am doing anything other than falling short of His expectations, but the goal is to follow His will to the most humanly possible degree.

richard wrote:You seem to be looking for some dogmatic, theological marching orders so you can go in to a battle of "doing God's will," when if fact the many manifestations of God's Truth, Love, Goodness, and Will make it clear that doing His Will in a labor of truth, love, and goodness in our lives and relationships with others, not a war with others... Surely if we are spiritually sincere & honest we will see, and eventually follow, these principles of His Truths in doing His Will in our relationships with all others, as He does with all of us.


Don't be fooled by my screen name, which includes "Warrior." The Baha'is are not a militant group—in fact the only world religion who has not fought others in its defence is the Baha'i Faith.

A "warrior," for example, could be a spiritual metaphor for someone who "fights" the forces of evil (the dying old world order) by working to establish Baha'u'llah's (God's) new world order, where human beings for the first time will live in harmony.

richard wrote:If your mind is holding you back with "intellectual" details, look to into your heart and soul for His Spiritual Truths, Love, and Goodness to guide you in doing His Will in your relationships with all others.


I need not look into my heart to see what God's will is. His Will is not to be found in any viscus, or any imperfect thoughts that man possesses. If God were to leave us to our own thoughts and conceptions of Him and His Will, that would be very tyrannical indeed—"authoritarian." Good thing He has presented His Will to us, and we can accept or reject it. States Baha'u'llah: "Whosoever desireth, let him turn aside from this counsel and whosoever desireth let him choose the path to his Lord." He continues, "O people, if ye deny these verses, by what proof have ye believed in God? Produce it, O assemblage of false ones."

richard wrote:Finally, if you can open up spiritually and embrace these manifested spiritual truths, rather than resist and reject them, you will be able to deal with the questions and doubts you expressed in your above post.


I expressed no doubts, it was a redundant question. Well, Richard, either I am rejecting God's spiritual truths, as you firmly assert—or you are. I know you look at my age and probably are thinking "this young fool is lost," but my ideas only are derived from an infallible source—the Baha'i Writings—though I certainly do not relay them infallibly.

richard wrote:As always, BW, God bless you and your loved ones, today and forever... richard


You too Richard.

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a simple point

Postby majnun » Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:54 pm

Dont you realize that the presence of mind
is being sucked away by a deluge of words ?

Knowledge is a single point,
but ignorants have multiplied it.


Majnun

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Postby majnun » Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:56 am

Dear Richard;

I am glad you react that way.
I wrote this to spike you a bit.
You know my direct style.

I hope that soon, the messages of Baha'u'llah
will be so well translated that all religious communities
can build communication bridges.

Majnun.

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:00 am

From Baha'u'llah's Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys, which Majnun quoted from:

    Secrets are many, but strangers are myriad. Volumes will not suffice to hold the mystery of the Beloved One, nor can it be exhausted in these pages, although it be no more than a word, no more than a sign. "Knowledge is a single point, but the ignorant have multiplied it."

This quote by 'Abdu'l-Baha (from the Lawh-i-Ismael) emphasizes the level of detachment we should have to all else besides God:

    All the friends of God should be as a sacrifice unto the One true God. This means that they should sacrifice and immolate all that pertaineth to them for the Beauty of God so that in this way they may reach the state of annihilation in God, which is none other than being a total sacrifice in His Lordship. This entails renouncing one’s own wishes, one’s own good pleasure, and desire and servitude to the servants of the Abhá Beauty, may my life be a ransom unto His loved ones!

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note on citations

Postby majnun » Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:52 am

Dear warrior :

This part of the valleys, as many others, is not very well translated, either in English nor in French.
I am working with people in Teheran, as well as with an Iranian baha’i in Montreal, to produce a much clearer translation. As an example, the first sentence sounds more like:
There are many secrets, but so many people do not know them.

You may see this effort as a blaspheme or as a sacrilege for now, but we will submit our version to the UHJ before even talking about it. Iranian translators who are familiar with this Persian poetic style are difficult to find these days.

You may remember that Ali Khan’s translation of 1906 was heavily criticised by Thornton Chase, in the early days, and that mister Chase asked Ethel Jenner Rosenberg to compare it with the French translation of mister Dreyfuss, before giving his authorization (approval) to publish it in English.
These simple facts are explained clearly in “Chicago House of Spirituality” notes of 1906. (they are available on this website) Before issuing something about us, I do some serious research, sometimes.

Concerning what you wrote above, personally, I do not see the parallel you wish to show, between these two citations. Please put some light on my road, dear warrior.

By this quote about the multiplied point, I only wished to show my friend Richard that the deluge of words he produces from his imagination and from readings outside the baha’i writings, to illustrate a single point, it is not necessary.

Majnun

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Re: note on citations

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:33 am

majnun wrote:You may see this effort as a blaspheme or as a sacrilege for now, but we will submit our version to the UHJ before even talking about it. Iranian translators who are familiar with this Persian poetic style are difficult to find these days.


I was just citing the full source (I thought the first part before the hadith was important too). I wasn't trying to say anything about your translation (I didn't even know you translate).

majnun wrote:Concerning what you wrote above, personally, I do not see the parallel you wish to show, between these two citations. Please put some light on my road, dear warrior.


The second quote was more directed to Richard, since I was talking about sacrifice in the path of God.

majnun wrote:By this quote about the multiplied point, I only wished to show my friend Richard that the deluge of words he produces from his imagination and from readings outside the baha’i writings, to illustrate a single point, it is not necessary.


This is a really great hadith. There is only one Truth (God), and the knowledge that emanates from that Source. But those paying no heed to this Knowledge, incognizant of God's Truth (or knowledge), make up their own substitute "knowledge," and call it that.

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Postby majnun » Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:46 pm

Thank you BW.
Since Dr Khalifa declared in the 70's that most hadith (especially those from Bukari) are invented stories, I ignore all of them. What has been written by Sana'i, Ayttar, Rumi and Hafez have a much greater intellectual weight than invented stories.

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:13 pm

We Baha'is don't have hadith or tradition, but that doesn't mean we reject the hadith in Islam (the ones that aren't fabricated are likely to not be in conflict with others). In fact, Baha'u'llah, 'Abdu'l-Baha, and the Bab all refer to hadith countless times—that is how important the hadith are. And as a tool for teaching, we are much more at an advantage for teaching Muslims about the Baha'i Faith via hadith, since there are many hadith that are very clear and explicit regarding, for example, the coming of a new Revelation, and this is not the case with Qur'an (because it is easy to reject others' interpretations, no matter how thoughtful the argument made is). You can make an argument, "This koranic verse is saying symbolically..." but they instantly reject it. Anyway, they themselves place so much importance on hadith that the better strategy sometimes (I think) is to argue from the hadith, if you are familiar with them. Some are not spiritually perceptive enough (or put in no effort) to apprehend Baha'u'llah's arguments based on koranic verses regrettably.

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small details

Postby majnun » Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:53 pm

Dear BW:

You are right. Our Messenger and his son, and
Shogi Effendi refer to the haddith and the cititations of the
past (koranic, gospelic, or else) wihch are absolutely right.
This does not mean every hadithh invented by Bukari is okay.

Any way, besides the immense knowledge transmitted to us
through prophet Baha'u'llah, I don't think citations and hadithh have
such a big importance, for us westerners. Many explanations given
by Abdul Baha may be very useful to those who still are not sure.
I don't know. Direct sayings, written down by mademoiselle Rosenberg, may be quite convincing, for many.


Majnun


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