One Muslim has said that Bahaulllah's arabic was rubbish

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British_Bahai
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One Muslim has said that Bahaulllah's arabic was rubbish

Postby British_Bahai » Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:32 pm

Hi everyone

One person has said that Bahaullah is fake because His arabic was rubbish (im obviously paraphrasing) and that its incomparable to the Quran.

I do not speak arabic so I cant tell the difference.

Im after some quotes/opinions etc because I would like to read about this in more detail

Thanks

BruceDLimber
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Re: One Muslim has said that Bahaulllah's arabic was rubbish

Postby BruceDLimber » Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:15 am

british_bahai wrote:One person has said that Bahaullah is fake because His arabic was rubbish (im obviously paraphrasing) and that its incomparable to the Quran.


Small world! :-)

As I recall, the same accusation was originally made about Muhammad when He wrote the Qur'an--that He hadn't followed what somebody though were the correct grammaatical rules!

Spurious attact then; spurious attack now.

Who said history doesn't repeat?

Cheers! :-)

Bruce

Fadl
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Postby Fadl » Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:27 am

Dear British Baha'i,

I have spent a lot of years and a lot of money studying Arabic and studying the writings of Baha'u'llah, and let me assure you that the Arabic of Baha'u'llah is without question beautifully eloquent and unequaled.

Something not often understood, is that just because a person is a Muslim or an Arab, does not mean that they understand Arabic well enough to make such a statement. Many Muslims who read the Qur'an and even have memorized numerous surihs, are unable to understand what they are reading without translations or tafsir.

Also, many native speakers of Arabic, while fluent in their particular dialect may not be fluent in the classical language found in the Qur'an, or the writings of the Bab or Baha'u'llah. Many native speakers who read the Qur'an are not able to understand the text without the help of tafsir or an explanation.

Occasionally, the Bab and Baha'u'llah introduced grammatical forms or terms that are unconventional or innovative, but it is a mistake to use these as evidence that the Arabic is "rubbish." Rather, it is evidence of the creativeness of the creative word.

The classical Arabic language of today, owes a significant part of its existence to the syntax and style of the Qur'an, and while Muslims will say that the Qur'an is inimitable and without error (which is true in the same way it is true for the Baha'i writings) some grammarians are quick to point out some grammatical anomalies that exist in the Qur'an.

However, the fact that the Qur'an is without error and inimitable is not due to syntax and grammar, it is due to its spiritual power and influence over the hearts of men, which can be indisputably verified by looking at what influence the book had over the centuries.

The Qur'an is indeed a miracle that was beyond imitation until the revelation of the Bab and Baha'u'llah, and before that time, it also was innovative and a unique creative work before its time.

Indeed, the revelation of the Qur'an has for centuries demonstrated its divine power and origin. The influence and power of the Bab and Baha'u'llah is also exerting its divine power on the hearts of man, and the the future centuries will show.

Jamal
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Postby Jamal » Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:12 am

Let us call a spade a spade and refrain from sacrificing evident facts at the altar of destructive fanaticism.
God forbid! Baha'u'llah's Arabic is not flawed. It is sweet, melodious, mellifluous and eloquent; however, it is just incomparable to the exalted majestic Arabic of the Quran which has given unrivaled literary prestige to Arabic.
Anyone with good knowledge of Arabic will acknowledge this plain fact.

Baha be upon the people of Baha.

Jamal

Fadl
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Postby Fadl » Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:38 am

Jamal wrote:Let us call a spade a spade and refrain from sacrificing evident facts at the altar of destructive fanaticism.
God forbid! Baha'u'llah's Arabic is not flawed. It is sweet, melodious, mellifluous and eloquent; however, it is just incomparable to the exalted majestic Arabic of the Quran which has given unrivaled literary prestige to Arabic.
Anyone with good knowledge of Arabic will acknowledge this plain fact.

Baha be upon the people of Baha.

Jamal


Jamal,

You said it all! I agree with almost everything you said. Your assessment of Baha's revelation is spot on, and indeed the Qur'an has given unrivaled literary prestige to Arabic. None could deny this truthfully. The Qur'an is undeniably miraculous, exalted, and supreme. The only thing I can't agree with you about, is the incomparability of the Baha's revelation and Muhammad's, but maybe not in the way you might imagine.

First, The Qur'an and the Revelation of Baha'u'llah, are each completely unique and cannot accurately be compared since they are essential different in nature and purpose.

Second, Muahammad and Baha are not rivals or in competition with each other, and both are merely the messengers of God's word. Making such comparisons is just as logical as comparing Dickens to Dickens, or Pushkin to Pushkin.......or (and this is what it really is) God to God.

But it is a good thing that the Revelation of Baha'u'llah and the Qur'an cannot and should not be compared, because if it was Baha'u'llah's purpose and mission to merely bring another Qur'an, then what purpose and usefulness could truly be ascribed to the revelation of Baha'u'llah, if what he brought to us was something we already had and did not need?

BruceDLimber
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Postby BruceDLimber » Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:24 am

Greetings!

Jamal wrote:Baha'u'llah's Arabic is ... sweet, melodious, mellifluous and eloquent; however, it is just incomparable to the exalted majestic Arabic of the Quran which has given unrivaled literary prestige to Arabic.
Anyone with good knowledge of Arabic will acknowledge this plain fact.


I fully agree with Loren's comments!

And you couldn't be more mistaken!: I know Baha'is whose PRIMARY LANGUAGE is Arabic (IOW, they're Arabs), and they fully endorse the beauty of BOTH the Qur'an and the Baha'i Writings, which they state clearly are fully as beautiful as the Qur'an and give Arabic equal prestige!

You are welcome to your opinion, of course! But you're way off the mark, I fear, in presuming to disparage Baha'u'llah's Writings.

Peace,

Bruce

Fadl
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Re: Bab's writings in Arabic

Postby Fadl » Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:36 pm

golha wrote:Dear Loren and Jamal,

Loren said:

the Bab and Baha'u'llah introduced grammatical forms or terms that are unconventional or innovative


I do not know how many pages of Bab's writings in Arabic you have seen and read. As far as I know, only a few of selections of Bab's writings are accessible to Bahais-which is not a normal matter. I would like to show you some pages of Bab's writings in Arabic, which I am sure no one in the world can understan and translate them! That is from the book : Dala'il-i Sab`ih (The Seven Proofs). Please refer to:
http://www.h-net.msu.edu/~bahai/areprin ... bihvii.jpg and the next page:
http://www.h-net.msu.edu/~bahai/areprin ... biviii.jpg
Also, please visit the page 112 of the book " Panj Sha'n. (Five Modes) of the Bab at :
http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/areprint/ba ... /ps112.gif



Hi Golha,


Thanks for the links! Many of us have seen these before already I'm sure. It is true that many of the Bab's writings are untranslatable, and some are difficult to understand. However, the samples that you have posted are very simple to understand. They are only "impossible" to translate (which is a bit of an exaggeration) because of how much English and Arabic differ grammatically. This tablet does not lend itself to being translated as it does not convey any meaning per se. It is a mystical work in which فرد (frd) is put through its various awzan to derive various meanings such as oneness, singleness, uniqueness, matchlessness, etc., etc. which in the tablet the Bab ascribes to God.

It is not new to us that the Bab was, among other things, a mystic and a great lover of God. That the Bab revealed something in Arabic that is primarily mystical and meditational in nature that cannot be easily translated into English while preserving its mystical content and form, should not come as a surprise.

British_Bahai
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Re: Bab's writings in Arabic

Postby British_Bahai » Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:40 am

golha wrote:Dear Loren and Jamal,

Loren said:

the Bab and Baha'u'llah introduced grammatical forms or terms that are unconventional or innovative

I do not know how many pages of Bab's writings in Arabic you have seen and read. As far as I know, only a few of selections of Bab's writings are accessible to Bahais-which is not a normal matter. I would like to show you some pages of Bab's writings in Arabic, which I am sure no one in the world can understan and translate them! That is from the book : Dala'il-i Sab`ih (The Seven Proofs). Please refer to:
http://www.h-net.msu.edu/~bahai/areprin ... bihvii.jpg and the next page:
http://www.h-net.msu.edu/~bahai/areprin ... biviii.jpg
Also, please visit the page 112 of the book " Panj Sha'n. (Five Modes) of the Bab at :
http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/areprint/ba ... /ps112.gif

Hi Golha,

Actually, everything is available from the Bahai World Centre in Haifa.

BruceDLimber
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Postby BruceDLimber » Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:35 am

Greetings, Gotha.

I know Arab Baha'is, and contrary to your accusations, from their statements it seems they have no trouble whatever understanding the Writings of either the Bab or Baha'u'llah!

So perhaps you need to speak to some folks of this background, who are clearly in a better position than we to clarify all this!

Oh--and such works aren't only available at the Baha'i World Center: the entire corpus of Baha'i and Babi scripture has always been generally available to those who read the languages!

Peace,

Bruce

Dorumerosaer
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Re: One Muslim has said that Bahaulllah's arabic was rubbish

Postby Dorumerosaer » Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:28 am

It appears that the gentleman is saying that the style of Baha'u'llah's Writings is different from that of the Qur'an. As Mirza Abu'l-Fadl explained, the power and uniqueness of the Word of God is not in its style; it is in its ability to change human behavior.

There is an article by Marzieh Gail in an old volume of World Order Magazine, in which she quotes Khalil Gibran as saying that Baha'u'llah's Arabic was peerless.

Brent

British_Bahai
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Re: One Muslim has said that Bahaulllah's arabic was rubbish

Postby British_Bahai » Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:27 am

pilgrimbrent wrote:There is an article by Marzieh Gail in an old volume of World Order Magazine, in which she quotes Khalil Gibran as saying that Baha'u'llah's Arabic was peerless.

Please excuse me ignorance, but who is K.Gibran?

Also, thanks for that. I will try and hunt down an electronic version online and if I come across it will also post it here so other people can refer to it in the future.

Dorumerosaer
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Re: One Muslim has said that Bahaulllah's arabic was rubbish

Postby Dorumerosaer » Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:33 am

british_bahai wrote:who is K.Gibran? .


Gibran is a popular poet and writer in the spiritual genre. He became popular in the USA in the beginning of the 20th Century and his popularity increased with time. His books continue to be published, and in recent years books have been written about him by Dr. Bushrui of the Baha'i Chair in Maryland, as well as Juan Cole and John Walbridge. You can Google for that. He was friends with some prominent early Baha'is, met Abdu'l-Baha, and though he never became a Baha'i he is quoted by them as partially recognizing the Baha'i Faith and modeling some of his writings on his own interpretation of who Abdu'l-Baha was.
Look him up on the Net -- there's a ton about him.
Brent


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