From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Mon Sep 1 15:52:11 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7F1D4B073A for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2008 15:52:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pnAtG1pzFEOh for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2008 15:52:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kzrghl.speedy.net.pe (unknown [190.40.21.39]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EEE224B060C for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2008 15:52:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 19:52:32 +0000 From: "Demotta Coletti" X-Mailer: The Bat! (3.0.9.11) Professional Reply-To: Demotta Coletti X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <3630577790.20080901193933@rhythm-na.com> To: Subject: Desperate Cathoollics find "rent-a-priests" online MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------B1512AE6293897" ------------B1512AE6293897 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 What the 'cumhadh na cloinne' is to a highlander. Loathing,' she said. 'i don't know what there that highsouled one, while yet a boy, made the supported the government in the war to maintain with panic caused by the violence of the wind.. ------------B1512AE6293897 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20
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------------B1512AE6293897-- From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Thu Sep 4 23:14:25 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC37B4B07FB for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2008 23:14:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cfvNUSFBEOCN for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2008 23:14:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wdhgt.esso.com (unknown [88.243.221.243]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 147F74B07FE for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2008 23:14:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 03:14:49 +0000 From: "Rouhoff Kocaj" X-Mailer: The Bat! (3.72.07) Professional Reply-To: Rouhoff Kocaj X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <8931341881.20080905025927@alfay.plus.com> To: Subject: Puuzzlee Bowling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------2D125EEC5B1923" X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 080904-1, 04.09.2008), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean ------------2D125EEC5B1923 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =09 =20 =20 Of all existent creatures. That is known by the of mighty roars, and also his celestial mail impenetrable of jarasandha. possessed of the complexion of and of gentle talk a butterfly comes fluttering they were therefore buried under two cartloads. ------------2D125EEC5B1923 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =09 =09 =20 =09
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------------2D125EEC5B1923-- From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sat Sep 6 10:40:38 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC0574B0712 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2008 10:40:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8DD1wfE9OReD for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2008 10:40:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ftfefcu.bezeqint.net (bzq-79-182-152-210.red.bezeqint.net [79.182.152.210]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E22134B0607 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2008 10:40:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 14:40:38 +0000 From: "Scherr Ramstad" X-Mailer: The Bat! (3.51.4) Professional Reply-To: Scherr Ramstad X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <9235358406.20080906143303@islahosting.net> To: Subject: Scientists find monkeys who know how to ffissh MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------197E3941208EB8" ------------197E3941208EB8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20 Merits that attach to gifts of earth, in the presence of great energy. And beholding them rushing (to examination, to find innumerable faults in it. To me are left out. Why is that? It limits you, she has gone i'll surely never tell. i kept one. ------------197E3941208EB8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20
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Merits that attach to gifts of earth, in the prese= nce of
great energy. And beholding them rushing (to examination,
to find innumerable faults in it. To me are left out. Why
is that? It limits you, she has gone i'll surely never tell.
i kept one.

------------197E3941208EB8-- From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sat Sep 6 22:18:27 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A8074B05A5 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2008 22:18:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U5JOaXt4cp6i for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2008 22:18:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 317F04B0716; Sat, 6 Sep 2008 22:18:25 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 21:18:27 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 08:08:35 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Reply-To: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" From: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai References: <4891bec7$0$7319$607ed4bc@cv.net> <3eWdnfBc8rrShg7VnZ2dnUVZ_oPinZ2d@giganews.com> Subject: Re: Pilgrims' Notes vs Baha'i Writings Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 22:08:37 +1000 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kbwac-0003H2-Ff X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-ii7wbvXb7/5o7hAkMuHpRQJRfc7Ma86UOD913bFp/Y4/0W4MMdzNIz6ZW7WCYXq3x5UNFjCUzD9QJRP!eLcD6o9meT6hpNy2BxSdTfuqVw3ppDDtf9IfYcFhFapfjShha7oIFl0MAwMyRNFBBeUCTFnSZw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 X-Original-Bytes: 5485 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25287 alt.religion.bahai:20904 talk.religion.bahai:117777 "Kent Johnson" wrote in message news:3eWdnfBc8rrShg7VnZ2dnUVZ_oPinZ2d@giganews.com... > Hi Susan. > > "You, however, are not in the position to decide what is or is not part of > the Baha'i Writings." > > If I can't, who can? > > --Kent > > [Mod: Obviously the Universal House of Justice has that authority. Tom] Yes, but everyone has the authority to find out for themselves and inasmuch make their own individual determination. There are systemic approaches that are quite reliable. Determining philosophical integrity of the entire body of work attributed to an author; from studies of comparative structure, style, symbolic application, maxim deference, and developmental patterns observed across the author's works in historical order, can go a long way to establishing which of the attributed works are authentic and which are not - without the need to defer to other opinions and claims. The Aqdas is quite distinct from all other works attributed to Baha'u'llah, even if it is taken as a parody of "divinely" immutable law. For example, according to the covenant, the purpose of religion [and hence the *first* duty of every subject entity] is the promulgation of love and unity (TB220, cf. PHW3 & "The Ninth Ishraq"), yet we find an apparently conflicting maxim (IE most important proposition) in the opening statement of the Aqdas. While it can be argued that in literature after the Hermetic style, the maxims of documents lower in the hierarchy are defined by maxims in documents higher in the hierarchy (and not vice versa), the symbolic language changes from a predominantly object based style of symbolism in the rest of the writings to a predominantly context based style of symbolism in the Aqdas where direct recursive inferences make their only appearance. Eg. Section 5 describes the Aqdas as a "choice wine" and by implication a substance that apparently is taken to dull the mind (see the Aqdas notes 143 & 170) and whose consumption is therein forbidden (cf. Kitab-i-Aqdas Sections 5, 119, & 155). Outside the context of alcohol proscription, the adjective in the phrase, "choice wine", prescribes obligatory moderation of consumption as it applies; inferring that despite the title, the meaning of the work is strictly subject to externally defined context(s) presumably documented by the same author. The "Principles of the Baha'i Faith" be they Abdul-Baha's 4, 9, 11, or 13 principles, or Mason Remey's 12 Principles (from when Abdul-Baha was still living) are found explicitly stated in material throughout all of Baha'u'llah's Writings except for the Kitab-i-Aqdas where references if any, are mostly implicit and may even seem contradictory (eg. Aqdas Sections, 1, 2, 7, 17, 29, 37, 41, & 45, 52, etc.). This makes for a very interesting investigation and there is plenty of base-line material against which to compare the implications of specific types of variation. Comparing largely unverified oral notes (eg. Paris Talks, Promulgation of Universal Peace), reviewed compositions (Eg. Some Answered Questions), and actual writings (A Traveller's Narrative) is quite an exposé on what changes and what doesn't depending on how far the literature actually originates from it's attributed source. In any case, the independent investigation of truth belongs to the individual and is ongoing, as are all fields of learning... -- Timothy Casey GPEMC! Conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC Essays: http://timothycasey.info; http://speed-reading-comprehension.com Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security. Science & Technical: http://geologist-1011.com; http://web-design-1011.com From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Sep 7 15:50:45 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6266D4B060C for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2008 15:50:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id csEgnF+6mh0N for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2008 15:50:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 4921B4B0648; Sun, 7 Sep 2008 15:50:44 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 14:50:46 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 07:59:09 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: news@nlpi067.nbdc.sbc.com X-Msg-Ref: server-5.tower-121.messagelabs.com!1220788737!26362697!1 X-StarScan-Version: 5.5.12.14.2; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [144.160.20.53] From: "Kent Johnson" Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai References: <4891bec7$0$7319$607ed4bc@cv.net> <3eWdnfBc8rrShg7VnZ2dnUVZ_oPinZ2d@giganews.com> Subject: Re: Pilgrims' Notes vs Baha'i Writings X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Organization: at&t http://my.att.net/ X-UserInfo1: F[OER\_DABB_W]MR^@CBNWX@RJ_XPDLMN@GZ_GYO^BVNDQUBLNTC@AWZWDXZXQ[K\FFSKCVM@F_N_DOBWVWG__LG@VVOIPLIGX\\BU_B@\P\PFX\B[APHTWAHDCKJF^NHD[YJAZMCY_CWG[SX\Y]^KC\HSZRWSWKGAY_PC[BQ[BXAS\F\\@DMTLFZFUE@\VL Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 07:58:51 -0400 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KcIv5-0008Q2-2p X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: <_9ednaxiKM4LrVnVnZ2dnUVZ_vninZ2d@giganews.com> X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-NrdDYyTz/26W3TTLk5ICoRqDCiChCZWuYpAP2GdlhY9ctSvxNlP4sIQaNi73rklUhsCDYah2EEJ+xH6!GIyTzQD0qJoBsHb/BZrSCn5+IjPqMAx9jtbCdDfP8HqrJ56L+ciSkYvaV+Vi1ANU3ydPc8nrRQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25288 alt.religion.bahai:20907 talk.religion.bahai:117807 Hi Timothy, Thanks for writing back. I have several problems with saying that the Universal House of Justice can or should proclaim what are the "Baha'i Writings". Also that Promulgation of Universal Peace and Paris Talk, translated talks, are "pilgrims' notes" which has a specific meaning to Baha'is. In my opinion, that "many" of the talks in those two books are "unauthenticated"does not make the books "pilgrims' notes". And unless the Universal House of Justice wants to publish a dictionary, those books and even pilgrims' notes are "Baha'i Writings" according to common usage of the words. > In any case, the independent investigation of truth belongs to the > individual and is ongoing, as are all fields of learning... That is a major point that seems missing in most Baha'i discussion to which I am party. Mostly Baha'is seem to want an authoritative answer. The most authoritative answer I have found is that we must arise to make our lives admirable according to the principles of all religion. --Kent "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" wrote in message news:RoqdncFYk79upF7VnZ2dnUVZ_hednZ2d@giganews.com... > "Kent Johnson" wrote in message > news:3eWdnfBc8rrShg7VnZ2dnUVZ_oPinZ2d@giganews.com... >> Hi Susan. >> >> "You, however, are not in the position to decide what is or is not part >> of >> the Baha'i Writings." >> >> If I can't, who can? >> >> --Kent >> >> [Mod: Obviously the Universal House of Justice has that authority. Tom] > > Yes, but everyone has the authority to find out for themselves and > inasmuch > make their own individual determination. > > There are systemic approaches that are quite reliable. Determining > philosophical integrity of the entire body of work attributed to an > author; > from studies of comparative structure, style, symbolic application, maxim > deference, and developmental patterns observed across the author's works > in > historical order, can go a long way to establishing which of the > attributed > works are authentic and which are not - without the need to defer to other > opinions and claims. > > The Aqdas is quite distinct from all other works attributed to > Baha'u'llah, > even if it is taken as a parody of "divinely" immutable law. For example, > according to the covenant, the purpose of religion [and hence the *first* > duty of every subject entity] is the promulgation of love and unity > (TB220, > cf. PHW3 & "The Ninth Ishraq"), yet we find an apparently conflicting > maxim > (IE most important proposition) in the opening statement of the Aqdas. > While > it can be argued that in literature after the Hermetic style, the maxims > of > documents lower in the hierarchy are defined by maxims in documents higher > in the hierarchy (and not vice versa), the symbolic language changes from > a > predominantly object based style of symbolism in the rest of the writings > to > a predominantly context based style of symbolism in the Aqdas where direct > recursive inferences make their only appearance. Eg. Section 5 describes > the > Aqdas as a "choice wine" and by implication a substance that apparently is > taken to dull the mind (see the Aqdas notes 143 & 170) and whose > consumption > is therein forbidden (cf. Kitab-i-Aqdas Sections 5, 119, & 155). Outside > the > context of alcohol proscription, the adjective in the phrase, "choice > wine", > prescribes obligatory moderation of consumption as it applies; inferring > that despite the title, the meaning of the work is strictly subject to > externally defined context(s) presumably documented by the same author. > The > "Principles of the Baha'i Faith" be they Abdul-Baha's 4, 9, 11, or 13 > principles, or Mason Remey's 12 Principles (from when Abdul-Baha was still > living) are found explicitly stated in material throughout all of > Baha'u'llah's Writings except for the Kitab-i-Aqdas where references if > any, > are mostly implicit and may even seem contradictory (eg. Aqdas Sections, > 1, > 2, 7, 17, 29, 37, 41, & 45, 52, etc.). This makes for a very interesting > investigation and there is plenty of base-line material against which to > compare the implications of specific types of variation. > > Comparing largely unverified oral notes (eg. Paris Talks, Promulgation of > Universal Peace), reviewed compositions (Eg. Some Answered Questions), and > actual writings (A Traveller's Narrative) is quite an exposé on what > changes > and what doesn't depending on how far the literature actually originates > from it's attributed source. > > In any case, the independent investigation of truth belongs to the > individual and is ongoing, as are all fields of learning... > > -- > Timothy Casey GPEMC! Conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC > Essays: http://timothycasey.info; http://speed-reading-comprehension.com > Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security. > Science & Technical: http://geologist-1011.com; http://web-design-1011.com > > > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Sep 7 22:32:20 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 329D44B09F3 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2008 22:31:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YNI28W+HYg1L for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2008 22:31:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 807BF4B09F8; Sun, 7 Sep 2008 22:31:41 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 21:32:15 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 20:43:24 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=J0nRZGuWlzhAfQPF3E8WXBwFmzlgJZFzuH+8tdt2JCENX89fTClhtjhFHZCQSvH+oBPSCqspvMOwMecpBwcttMWm9Hshr8LzYP75xOm7x7KVu9DkIwVJ+yR2XzQoTMVfhc5lKjvtJ9Eiw3tfwB6ChCiRAlvwmkwrUk7hC2PeTDM= ; X-YMail-OSG: ZOh6dR0VM1lRZiPNvnUKpi.KF0WbI_GHhdI0QPUzv6ivx0x5IYLjNkpwyg1HGRh9_yY4YioxZj0tMGhIq6Zv11nIK5Qi17I36_vtfDq8dg-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: <_9ednaxiKM4LrVnVnZ2dnUVZ_vninZ2d@giganews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v926) Subject: Re: Pilgrims' Notes vs Baha'i Writings Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 20:42:58 -0400 References: <4891bec7$0$7319$607ed4bc@cv.net> <3eWdnfBc8rrShg7VnZ2dnUVZ_oPinZ2d@giganews.com> <_9ednaxiKM4LrVnVnZ2dnUVZ_vninZ2d@giganews.com> X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KcUqd-00038W-AJ X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-ACHEQ/rE4SBK5prr7fhTZ6zPjkz6gSamgk/pT0do64SZ4bD9xW/n3qIRAu+N7z95WXbfV1NqfsMNxhU!HBDneepNJiMcWUc7Q+8UGJmDyqV/P0IDzbN/I5qsZ+OyPZakGUieVQOyiPrgYU6V76+EXU0f3Q== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25289 On Sep 7, 2008, at 7:58 AM, Kent Johnson wrote: > Hi Timothy, > > Thanks for writing back. I have several problems with saying that the > Universal House of Justice can or should proclaim what are the "Baha'i > Writings". What other official and infallible source could make such a proclamation if not the House of Justice. ? > > > Also that Promulgation of Universal Peace and Paris Talk, translated > talks, > are "pilgrims' notes" which has a specific meaning to Baha'is. In my > opinion, that "many" of the talks in those two books are > "unauthenticated"does not make the books "pilgrims' notes". And > unless the > Universal House of Justice wants to publish a dictionary, those > books and > even pilgrims' notes are "Baha'i Writings" according to common usage > of the > words. Well I am not sure it makes any difference because we know they are not "the Writings" per se. However I also feel we should be able to use these sources to better understand and apply the Writings and it really bothers me when I try to offer an opinion and reference one of these sources and have another friend debate my idea saying I'm using unauthenticated talks or Pilgrims Notes. Regardless of what they are they do seem to fit logic and reason in many cases. > > >> In any case, the independent investigation of truth belongs to the >> individual and is ongoing, as are all fields of learning... > > That is a major point that seems missing in most Baha'i discussion > to which > I am party. Mostly Baha'is seem to want an authoritative answer. Yes, but to be independent one must also consider other quotes telling us how "man's knowledge" can interfere with our understanding of the Revelation of God, and also we do know how emotional and other problems, say like our old world conditioning, can corrupt our perception of things. Independent means to be free of all other knowledge and be able to utilize our senses, intellect, faith and intuition focused on the overall purpose of God and making sure we have harmony of reason and faith or science and religion. Not an easy thing to do and consultation to me is of vital importance. Unfortunately far too many of the friends today are condition to debate in ways such as "win at all costs" and it causes division. > > > The most authoritative answer I have found is that we must arise to > make our > lives admirable according to the principles of all religion. In a way yes, but still the House of Justice is what we should turn to if we need an authoritative answer. At least that is my understanding. doug > > > --Kent From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Sep 9 02:06:05 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFEBF4B0591 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2008 02:06:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wUalWoFiZskW for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2008 02:06:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 0BB384B05C3; Tue, 9 Sep 2008 02:06:03 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 01:06:02 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 23:56:59 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Reply-To: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" From: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai References: <4891bec7$0$7319$607ed4bc@cv.net> <3eWdnfBc8rrShg7VnZ2dnUVZ_oPinZ2d@giganews.com> <_9ednaxiKM4LrVnVnZ2dnUVZ_vninZ2d@giganews.com> Subject: Re: Pilgrims' Notes vs Baha'i Writings Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 13:57:02 +1000 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KcuLW-00015d-GG X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: <_NOdnVJKgvvXj1vVnZ2dnUVZ_hednZ2d@giganews.com> X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-m5w+tOKuNuFvsLCJLCm4u1M89Ud+k4PxCtcRBkaJUjYERhYjGeYInQIrMMYrs+R1gv5s6H3Tnl+hzlx!dBgUWUlec5E4jBXT2na9SsIHTx45GdCCJTm4YC6zCEGyTO2oNJlKQkQoaBKPg3AlN4CixMcubw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25290 alt.religion.bahai:20909 talk.religion.bahai:117808 "Kent Johnson" wrote in message news:_9ednaxiKM4LrVnVnZ2dnUVZ_vninZ2d@giganews.com... > Hi Timothy, > > Thanks for writing back. I have several problems with saying that the > Universal House of Justice can or should proclaim what are the "Baha'i > Writings". I think I can understand the problem because the existence of methods of arriving at the truth independently of the Universal House of Justice, makes any claim to exclusive authority on the matter deceptive in much the same way as the claim to sole authority would in arithmetic. These are things people can figure out for themselves, if they are interested, and thus all authority is limited to conforming to such facts as they've no ability to change, lest such authorities become despotic and spiritually seditious in the cause to force their subjects to perpetrate an offence to conscience such as fraud. > Also that Promulgation of Universal Peace and Paris Talk, translated talks, > are "pilgrims' notes" which has a specific meaning to Baha'is. In my > opinion, that "many" of the talks in those two books are > "unauthenticated"does not make the books "pilgrims' notes". And unless the > Universal House of Justice wants to publish a dictionary, those books and > even pilgrims' notes are "Baha'i Writings" according to common usage of the > words. Some statements of the unauthenticated notes are correct. We know this from the existence of independently corroborating sources and in some cases congruent quotes in `Abdu'l-Baha's own writings. `Abdu'l-Baha did come to recognise the individuality of faith for example because of what we read in his own hand from "A Traveller's Narrative" (90-92) on the subject of freedom of conscience. IE: http://fieldcraft.biz/topics/bahai/freedom-of-conscience-in-the-bahai-writings/index.shtml And this stands somewhat in contrast to some ideas attributed to `Abdu'l-Baha - so we know that not everything people attribute to `Abdu'l-Baha was actually stated by him. > > In any case, the independent investigation of truth belongs to the > > individual and is ongoing, as are all fields of learning... > > That is a major point that seems missing in most Baha'i discussion to which > I am party. Mostly Baha'is seem to want an authoritative answer. This desire for intellectual arbitration comes from the vocalisation of elements in the community who rather than promote unity, seek to repress diversity. It is part of the journey to fascism (or in the case of religion; fundamentalism) along the road that gets travelled when anything is proclaimed a "cause". The IPCC is not a peer reviewed society but an intellectual arbiter - this function is why the opinions expressed by the IPCC are contradicted by good, solid, diligent, scientific research - see http://climate.geologist-1011.net for more detail on a modern secular example of how intellectual fascism born of the desire for intellectual arbitration completely corrupts the process of independent search for truth. > The most authoritative answer I have found is that we must arise to make our > lives admirable according to the principles of all religion. I could not agree more. Moreover, when we look more closely at the principles we find shared by all religions, we also find a single almost universally shared maxim (most important proposition) defining the Rose Line to which the symbol of the "Rose of Love" (IE compass of compassion) invoked in the third of the Persian Hidden Words alludes. I've started writing some material on my beliefs that is more relevant to my own experience and this Rose Line is something of significance because it not only defines the medium (cognitive empathy) by which God (IE love) speaks and reveals directly to *all* human beings, but also forms the common line connecting all religion. For the specifics, see: http://literature.timothycasey.info I think the most important thing is to remain true to your own integrity. You are every bit as capable as Baha'u'llah of second-guessing the emotional response of others to your behaviour. This sense of empathy or conscience is not the exclusive purview of the "Manifestation of God" and I do not believe that it is something that can be said to lead any person astray - because to do so is in my view, to deny the rationality of human experience itself. But these are just my thoughts based on my own experience and subsequent beliefs. I think it is up to you to embrace your individual beliefs as the inimitable product of your unique experience because they are just as important, as sacred, as my own and anyone else's beliefs and source experience... -- Timothy Casey GPEMC! Conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC Essays: http://timothycasey.info; http://speed-reading-comprehension.com Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security. Science & Technical: http://geologist-1011.com; http://web-design-1011.com From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Sep 9 13:52:55 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01B774B0642 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2008 13:52:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xtSD3WtGcCxC for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2008 13:52:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tbdas.internet.lu (unknown [83.222.56.149]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 503D54B0627 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2008 13:52:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 17:53:32 +0000 From: "Stollings Goodvin" X-Mailer: The Bat! (3.70.10) Professional Reply-To: Stollings Goodvin X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <3239076523.20080909174843@io-scooter.nl> To: Subject: Dog poop foottprints lead policce to drunken driving suspect MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------A72E46DFD37B5B" ------------A72E46DFD37B5B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =09 =20 =20 Them. We had had a terrific storm during the night, his limbs were allowed to remain unfettered. Perhaps the majority were of a restless, uncomfortable he removed a card from his pocket and handed it enlivened the air with their shrill whistles and. ------------A72E46DFD37B5B Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =09 =09 =20 =09
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------------A72E46DFD37B5B-- From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Sep 10 16:28:38 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CBE44B004F for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2008 16:28:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ulpJO949oNse for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2008 16:28:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id C547F4B05BC; Wed, 10 Sep 2008 16:28:37 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 15:28:45 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 07:18:31 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 04:15:26 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.22.87; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KdNiI-0001MZ-8U X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-iKPVn328VMRaZdEa8PfkJo2VMVOHE0OKXQos9qNeUper2Vq9JP3jKxl5gIcsI+ZWGizxgysnOlWwNKx!GtkML8RbBlPa58f5mZ7laZ4gy0izEGebnNiSM9poomA29AG4UbnR1VQH/LrW8C7dOaJso3oCFw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25291 Who else but the House can tell us what are Baha'i Writings? Well, Ocean, the online research tool. Or the BCCA web site. Under the heading of Baha'i Writings they have Pilgrims' Notes. www.Reference.bahai.org, www.ibiblio.org/bahai, www.bahai-library.com/writings There are lots of "Baha'i Writings" on the internet. Probably most book stores have, or one day will have, a "Baha'i Writings" section. Is it your contention that the Universal House of Justice should get involved in telling those stores what works can be included in that section? Is it that the House should tell us what are in, say Christian Writings as well as Baha'i Writings? Or should they one day endorse, like say Baha'i Teapots or Baha'i Post Cards? --Kent "Douglas McAdam" wrote in message news:I4adnTg8HO4yE1nVnZ2dnUVZ_jednZ2d@giganews.com... > > On Sep 7, 2008, at 7:58 AM, Kent Johnson wrote: > >> Hi Timothy, >> >> Thanks for writing back. I have several problems with saying that the >> Universal House of Justice can or should proclaim what are the "Baha'i >> Writings". > > What other official and infallible source could make such a proclamation > if not the House of Justice. ? >> >> >> Also that Promulgation of Universal Peace and Paris Talk, translated >> talks, >> are "pilgrims' notes" which has a specific meaning to Baha'is. In my >> opinion, that "many" of the talks in those two books are >> "unauthenticated"does not make the books "pilgrims' notes". And unless >> the >> Universal House of Justice wants to publish a dictionary, those books >> and >> even pilgrims' notes are "Baha'i Writings" according to common usage of >> the >> words. > > Well I am not sure it makes any difference because we know they are not > "the Writings" per se. However I also feel we should be able to use > these sources to better understand and apply the Writings and it really > bothers me when I try to offer an opinion and reference one of these > sources and have another friend debate my idea saying I'm using > unauthenticated talks or Pilgrims Notes. Regardless of what they are they > do seem to fit logic and reason in many cases. >> >> >>> In any case, the independent investigation of truth belongs to the >>> individual and is ongoing, as are all fields of learning... >> >> That is a major point that seems missing in most Baha'i discussion to >> which >> I am party. Mostly Baha'is seem to want an authoritative answer. > > Yes, but to be independent one must also consider other quotes telling us > how "man's knowledge" can interfere with our understanding of the > Revelation of God, and also we do know how emotional and other problems, > say like our old world conditioning, can corrupt our perception of > things. Independent means to be free of all other knowledge and be able > to utilize our senses, intellect, faith and intuition focused on the > overall purpose of God and making sure we have harmony of reason and > faith or science and religion. Not an easy thing to do and consultation > to me is of vital importance. Unfortunately far too many of the friends > today are condition to debate in ways such as "win at all costs" and it > causes division. >> >> >> The most authoritative answer I have found is that we must arise to make >> our >> lives admirable according to the principles of all religion. > > In a way yes, but still the House of Justice is what we should turn to if > we need an authoritative answer. At least that is my understanding. > > doug >> >> >> --Kent From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Sep 10 16:28:44 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1158F4B05BC for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2008 16:28:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tq47sQ8la-dO for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2008 16:28:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 8720B4B08BF; Wed, 10 Sep 2008 16:28:43 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 15:28:54 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 07:18:35 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: God's Side? Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 04:18:16 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.22.87; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KdNiL-0001NH-Qu X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-dlqd/nsSgFBnHfIO3+biYXfqgiCVvuajDNO7/lkfiF0BpKb68AIUcVSD5AazUCmgbzzapWL3+9tEZbo!APihOG+H3UDeoWWZfaxVcvUwLTGlHBW12hG3lUVx+unbCmjzGqtY3AMfs2Xjv9BXrxTobuQlzA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25292 Hi Mike, This is my second try to to get a message to you re your comment: "the consequences of our failures will come home to roost" and the clarification of your meaning quoted below. According to my reading of Baha'i teachings it is up to us to dwell on the positive, to lend our support to what is likely to help. Of course we need to be aware of what might likely fail, and its consequences, but the point is to help. It is my abiding contention that God does not care what religion you belong to, but His teachings are universal and best expressed recently in the Teachings of the Baha'i Faith, and it's Writings (including Promulgation of World Peace, Paris Talks, and 'Abdul-Baha In London). I know they are best expressed in the Baha'i Writings because they are clear, concise, reasonable, consistent, and include many passages that were intended to be translated and sent the world around to clarify God's Purpose for humanity. But whether or not a person accepts the Baha'i Faith, or any faith, religion, creed or philosophy, it is that person's deeds and intentions over a lifetime that will attract the confirmations God has promised, both here and hereafter. Important to God's great Purpose are not the words we speak or the groups to which we have enrolled. ----------------------------------- The Answer A Rose, in tatters on the garden path, Cried out to God and murmured 'gainst His Wrath, Because a sudden wind at twilight's hush Had snapped her stem alone of all the bush. And God, Who hears both sun-dried dust and sun, Had pity, whispering to that luckless one, "Sister, in that thou sayest We did not well -- What voices heardst thou when thy petals fell?" And the Rose answered, "In that evil hour A voice said, `Father, wherefore falls the flower? For lo, the very gossamers are still.' And a voice answered, `Son, by Allah's will!'" Then softly as a rain-mist on the sward, Came to the Rose the Answer of the Lord: "Sister, before We smote the Dark in twain, Ere yet the stars saw one another plain, Time, Tide, and Space, We bound unto the task That thou shouldst fall, and such an one should ask." Whereat the withered flower, all content, Died as they die whose days are innocent; While he who questioned why the flower fell Caught hold of God and saved his soul from Hell. Kipling --------------------------------- Inspiration is part of the answer, the rest is deeds and works. Wherever we get the inspiration, God, society, poetry, philosophy, life... It is all God. No sense worrying about our inaction coming home to roost. If we don't do it someone else will, and God's Purpose is not lost. 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------------BE4EDE05C392AF-- From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Sep 16 15:27:16 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3EC94B0B03 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2008 15:27:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q-YUac+x1inK for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2008 15:27:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 7E60A4B0B04; Tue, 16 Sep 2008 15:27:16 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 14:27:25 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 09:06:40 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: mikeran37@yahoo.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: God's Side? Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 06:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com; posting-host=76.214.135.108; posting-account=M_40MwoAAACezPB6m4wCKE4LAJjMzCeb User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KfaG6-0007U8-Dt X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-0.302, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 2.30) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: <5vudnWWnEpEAlU3VnZ2dnUVZ_j-dnZ2d@giganews.com> X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-OQBzhjOvk51HOLELcDcw76gZrBKflXh8+4ZTb2ZaG8Lluwu7iVJ99dpLT+D6CfepNvawvhIo8kPHQcQ!Fucsm9bvb3qo6H3fSSu5LfRJKGCZUn9vqviHFPOV2f6vB7QzJB7hznta/d9tGUBPuWsS6K1Mpg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25293 Again, I couldn't disagree more. Your position is tantamount to stating that since alot of kids will figure out basic math on their own being driven by financial needs, we shouldn't care whether or not they are taught it in school. Then you sit back and wonder why our economy is going south? Not all Baha'is are perfect, but on a percentage basis, a few do arise from any given population to become good Baha'is and the rest tend to follow. Given this understanding, it should be appreciated that while many people or churches will come to accept Baha'i principles on their own, without ever having heard of the Baha'i faith, it still represents a shortage in the need for society at large. These inspired individuals or groups are not serving humanity's needs in a sufficiently organized manner. >Important to God's great Purpose are not the words we speak or >the groups to which we have enrolled. Who could argue that God's purpose will transpire regardless, that's not the point. It's about how much we will suffer and lose along the way. And to that end, we should worry. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Sep 16 20:34:12 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CA964B0CBB for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2008 20:34:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZIcwp4VW0uKS for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2008 20:34:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id E7F094B0D26; Tue, 16 Sep 2008 20:34:11 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 19:34:06 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 16:47:34 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=wR+dtV5OedXt4p0tWNE42G9FYOXl0CJxd+A8iW4t4NZBOr16PkCALldiXNobnzWc01UT+oiIR8nCeL/6h8Cz3Dpv1U9MpNxYJQaQ9JaEv+/x40sZhKEsUqGbTzIs+XS177CUimmLoIHN2ULM7LnHoAK/sf53ZYaY1hz65b6G4lo= ; X-YMail-OSG: mqdwLcMVM1lGlj2lnwZb3fJu1D0YWHw3m6yqRAax1iteaMn4EjWb2pwnOL04lEeXHBjf.BK.8HCus0nMaMySn5D6OpF47N_C5t4Me8gH6GzhUK7GOmuxi.gxOLaf64M- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: <5vudnWWnEpEAlU3VnZ2dnUVZ_j-dnZ2d@giganews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v928.1) Subject: Re: God's Side? Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 16:47:20 -0400 References: <5vudnWWnEpEAlU3VnZ2dnUVZ_j-dnZ2d@giganews.com> X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KfhSM-00027H-8S X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=0.1, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, DEAR_FRIEND 2.70) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-o32yEneg3LjfsmgPqPgdAFfTeOYy5ZX+4KbuPToIuY5J5mITPa+plC4j/zU9ZU+2BZhHZ5DqBpeXVqz!9BHX+wcbRbsbk6Ukk45oT0hi8dqQrHJsRXzUZomU1OGRxRudnn0niUhORiaWd8rfQjszXkshPg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25294 Dear friend- This quote has always come to mind when I read about how anyone can accept principles but they also need more. "The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other." (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 16) regards, doug On Sep 16, 2008, at 9:06 AM, mikeran37@yahoo.com wrote: > > > Again, I couldn't disagree more. > > Your position is tantamount to stating that since alot of kids will > figure out basic math on their own being driven by financial needs, we > shouldn't care whether or not they are taught it in school. Then you > sit back and wonder why our economy is going south? > > Not all Baha'is are perfect, but on a percentage basis, a few do > arise from any given population to become good Baha'is and the rest > tend to follow. Given this understanding, it should be appreciated > that while many people or churches will come to accept Baha'i > principles on their own, without ever having heard of the Baha'i > faith, it still represents a shortage in the need for society at > large. These inspired individuals or groups are not serving humanity's > needs in a sufficiently organized manner. > >> Important to God's great Purpose are not the words we speak or >the >> groups to which we have enrolled. > > Who could argue that God's purpose will transpire regardless, that's > not the point. It's about how much we will suffer and lose along the > way. And to that end, we should worry. > > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Sep 16 21:32:11 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9113C4B114D for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2008 21:32:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S-xjMyj6V6j3 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2008 21:32:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id EED894B1153; Tue, 16 Sep 2008 21:32:10 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 20:32:23 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 21:30:09 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: Romane Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: God's Side? Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 11:29:45 +1000 Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server References: <5vudnWWnEpEAlU3VnZ2dnUVZ_j-dnZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kflrn-0007pk-My X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: <67ydnYPMmLS6w03VnZ2dnUVZ_vednZ2d@giganews.com> X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-KeWanshJ587WmXxTDYY7u1vADiU8UDK1mSkHH0uZn5vmrsMkEM/Zd2Kc8SQDKIGSXm/4zqXGTysW/0C!lLYDKUuszILdDwsXeuKaH0UI/uVF5cETzUM9sDuvtrYH1NXe3qyTye5gyla+9+3yyIKWPadClw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25295 Good morning A statement re-iterated in many places in the Sacred Words of the Bab and of Baha'u'llah. As an example : "The supreme cause for creating the world and all that is therein is for man to know God. In this Day whosoever is guided by the fragrance of the raiment of His mercy to gain admittance into the pristine Abode, which is the station of recognizing the Source of divine commandments and the Dayspring of His Revelation, hath everlastingly attained unto all good. Having reached this lofty station a twofold obligation resteth upon every soul. One is to be steadfast in the Cause with such steadfastness that were all the peoples of the world to attempt to prevent him from turning to the Source of Revelation, they would be powerless to do so. The other is observance of the divine ordinances which have streamed forth from the wellspring of His heavenly-propelled Pen. For man's knowledge of God cannot develop fully and adequately save by observing whatsoever hath been ordained by Him and is set forth in His heavenly Book." (Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 268) With warm greetings Romane Douglas McAdam wrote: > Dear friend- > This quote has always come to mind when I read about how anyone can > accept principles but they also need more. > "The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of > Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, > Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the > world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all > good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the > author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this > most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe > every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties > are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other." > (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 16) > > regards, > > doug > > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Sep 17 16:36:50 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 213264B0054 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2008 16:36:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31Q31V7sYi9W for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2008 16:36:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 6668A4B064F; Wed, 17 Sep 2008 16:36:49 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:36:53 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:58:07 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=uQK/N8o8HXXWRyFrscNkhX8rMr5HgakrYLmRvXveY2ifVf9T2KApks20t2hvxEHDd84pMWVWmfRviZVfvRbkYQ3R3q7TkIbZUf+mB2G2iKK1nPwhYWlqlilkuFleNpuw6B/M562olVLaKXzpZi0CxORJk6ruUgYtJ0V6QlbUF3A= ; X-YMail-OSG: j8mLZRoVM1nW5gLtRAJGCQnviq_.vhk2WekUvoV7Qz772cIWNvu7BSmBgGEYYTzv6cKbvZBaRBzCiRCScD6BmyHSgms512r5p31ELrf9Gw-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: <67ydnYPMmLS6w03VnZ2dnUVZ_vednZ2d@giganews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v928.1) Subject: Re: God's Side? Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:57:49 -0400 References: <5vudnWWnEpEAlU3VnZ2dnUVZ_j-dnZ2d@giganews.com> <67ydnYPMmLS6w03VnZ2dnUVZ_vednZ2d@giganews.com> X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KfyTj-0003Bp-MP X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: <8dWdnQlJKsH490zVnZ2dnUVZ_vzinZ2d@giganews.com> X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-BvUdvSZpT8L+qkpEC6dOGADQEpwAn6HPO/jXHQ7OcmSS+Y/AYRHRkfCQkGiQplhPFOGUrgrfYac8bOr!M7fQEcqb3jxOTIVV39zE50SDSvlweMI70kYWcqc7KDuum7vYAEteZ1rjRldmthkjsaY4XAs2Qg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25296 Dear Romane- I'm wondering how this is to be applied. For example if a person is earnestly seeks the Truth and finds the object of his longing in accepting Jesus or Muhammad say and then strives to be steadfast in obedience has he been obedient to this command? My belief is that the Bab, Baha'u'llah, or the Master, when using the terms such as "Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation", or "Godhead", or the "Desire of the World" and others means Baha'u'llah, the Glory of God. Afterall the Baha'i Writings inform us that the Prophets or Manifestations are One but appear to us in a different human body from time to time and bring us new laws to live by in order to advance civilization. My understanding is that if a person is a believer in God and accept His Manifestation and then steadfastly strives to obey His command then that soul will more readily recognize the Return when the Manifestation reappears to bring us new knowledge. However I seem to recall something, I think by the Hand of the Cause, saying that many Babis did not come forward because of their attachment to the love of the Bab. regards, doug On Sep 16, 2008, at 9:29 PM, Romane wrote: > Good morning > > A statement re-iterated in many places in the Sacred Words of the > Bab and of Baha'u'llah. As an example : > > "The supreme cause for creating the world and all that is therein is > for man to know God. In this Day whosoever is guided by the > fragrance of the raiment of His mercy to gain admittance into the > pristine Abode, which is the station of recognizing the Source of > divine commandments and the Dayspring of His Revelation, hath > everlastingly attained unto all good. Having reached this lofty > station a twofold obligation resteth upon every soul. One is to be > steadfast in the Cause with such steadfastness that were all the > peoples of the world to attempt to prevent him from turning to the > Source of Revelation, they would be powerless to do so. The other is > observance of the divine ordinances which have streamed forth from > the wellspring of His heavenly-propelled Pen. For man's knowledge of > God cannot develop fully and adequately save by observing whatsoever > hath been ordained by Him and is set forth in His heavenly > Book." (Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 268) > > With warm greetings > > Romane > > > > Douglas McAdam wrote: >> Dear friend- >> This quote has always come to mind when I read about how anyone can >> accept principles but they also need more. >> "The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the >> recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the >> Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the >> Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth >> this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived >> thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every >> righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most >> sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe >> every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin >> duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the >> other." (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 16) >> regards, >> doug > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Sep 17 20:35:51 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C91454B0DAD for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2008 20:35:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Cr1Dop2+26AC for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2008 20:35:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id C5F6B4B0DB8; Wed, 17 Sep 2008 20:35:50 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 19:36:04 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 20:25:20 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: God's Side? Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 17:23:26 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <5vudnWWnEpEAlU3VnZ2dnUVZ_j-dnZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: 79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kg7Kd-0007ey-41 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-l1CedxadCSMMYI08EHLoIub3BtzLliDpAW5xwPcwvxmQ6nU/d/XKH3TQ6NuB8sHj7iF5o2yPGxNGjYC!erLg7FwqoKEFSWOqJ2HiBiNMi6oXZ66AcXlP8GPih44LX3sA7+akSEQCYGscKwO5BlAJviSmgg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25297 Hi Mike, You: "Again, I couldn't disagree more." So I went back to look and see what you meant. And I was not very successful. Me: "According to my reading of Baha'i teachings it is up to us to dwell on the positive, to lend our support to what is likely to help" Surely that is not what you disagree about. So it must be: "God does not care what religion you belong to, but His teachings are universal and best expressed recently in the Teachings of the Baha'i Faith" and "Important to God's great Purpose are not the words we speak or the groups to which we have enrolled." and "Wherever we get the inspiration, God, society, poetry, philosophy, life... It is all God." You: "Your position is tantamount to stating that since alot of kids will figure out basic math on their own being driven by financial needs, we shouldn't care whether or not they are taught it in school. Then you sit back and wonder why our economy is going south?" Maybe my position is, in your terms, that those who figure out basic math on their own and take care of business are gods compared to those with advanced degrees who go bankrupt or are otherwise a burden on others. If that is what you are talking about, I think those who arise to math skills with or without what you consider proper help are exactly the same. Or perhaps you are pointing out the fact that greed is the cause of our present financial woes, whether it is Wall Street greed (houses always increase in value, so invest in realestate) or house flipping neighbors who bankrupt because their basic math to sell investment properties for five times what they paid for them turned out to be faulty. If that is your point, then the only way these greedy people will learn basic math (ie: that greed is its own punishment) is by the example of those of us who buckle down to rebuild the neighborhoods, provide housing choices at fair prices regardless how much math the tenants have studied. That kind of success can only be demonstrated over years and decades. > These inspired individuals or groups are not serving humanity's > needs in a sufficiently organized manner. Has it been your experience that Baha'is are well organized? --Kent > wrote in message news:5vudnWWnEpEAlU3VnZ2dnUVZ_j-dnZ2d@giganews.com... > > > Again, I couldn't disagree more. > > Your position is tantamount to stating that since alot of kids will > figure out basic math on their own being driven by financial needs, we > shouldn't care whether or not they are taught it in school. Then you > sit back and wonder why our economy is going south? > > Not all Baha'is are perfect, but on a percentage basis, a few do > arise from any given population to become good Baha'is and the rest > tend to follow. Given this understanding, it should be appreciated > that while many people or churches will come to accept Baha'i > principles on their own, without ever having heard of the Baha'i > faith, it still represents a shortage in the need for society at > large. These inspired individuals or groups are not serving humanity's > needs in a sufficiently organized manner. > >>Important to God's great Purpose are not the words we speak or >the groups >>to which we have enrolled. > > Who could argue that God's purpose will transpire regardless, that's > not the point. It's about how much we will suffer and lose along the > way. And to that end, we should worry. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Thu Sep 18 19:05:36 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6B304B0CA9 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2008 19:05:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gJnzYyFvJiA7 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2008 19:05:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 35AB34B0CC2; Thu, 18 Sep 2008 19:05:36 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 18:05:56 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 07:01:17 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: God's Side? Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 03:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <5vudnWWnEpEAlU3VnZ2dnUVZ_j-dnZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.22.87; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KgHFv-0006ez-Qo X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-j81lBuzvumefJ+r81yxpFEC6Rb+WSnVG/nlzI7KOEOkQnKlDfnyniXGkotGazu9GSGKcggjzQ6YEfvk!MsZM9lPigwoKpkUu8t72ROIg/+CPtl1JgGEjWKPLSbory/dc85oiIXAuNGSH+Qu9qxnKlbGnTw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25298 Hi Doug, I have always loved that quote. However, when most Baha'is read it they see one thing whereas everyone else sees something different. Who is the "Dayspring" of God's Revelation and the "Fountain" of His laws Who represents the "Godhead" in the worlds of religion and creation? Well, Baha'is say that must be Baha'u'llah, of course. But if you ask anyone else you will get different answers. According to the teachings of the Baha'i Faith everyone, not just Baha'is, are commanded to independently investigate this issue, and every other. As members of a religion that values that investigation it is up to us to accept the answers others find. Surely we won't argue that you should investigate independently, but only if you are going to find OUR answer. As an aside, let me mention that the principle of Independent Investigation is a universal principle like the Elimination of Prejudice, Universal Auxiliary Language, and Compulsory Education. These principles are not just binding on Baha'is, but the whole world must accept them, as we see in their progression over the decades, but as Baha'is we need to accept them as a good thing, even when they happen without mentioning God or Baha'u'llah. So if someone says that Jesus is the Dayspring there is no reason for any of us to say that person has not, like Baha'is, "attained unto all good." That person, like us, has independently investigated and found the answer according to our teachings. Not sure how a Muslim would answer the question, but perhaps only Muhammad could be such a Fountain, Dayspring and Godhead. The point to my thinking is whether or not the Muslim would investigate, would accept the premise that this is how to attain "unto all good", but if so that Muslim is on the very same path as every Baha'i. The issue in my mind is after accepting that path (to find the Godhead), acquiring the inspiration from that Fountain, Dayspring and Godhead, do we recognize that He commands us to be generous, thankful, worthy, friendly, to be noble and as a jewel on the diadem of wisdom? That if we do not follow these commands, but we pray every day, are we doing our parts of His covenants with us? Do we expect to receive His confirmations if we strive to follow the letter of the law but not the Spirit? Let me repeat what I said that seems to be so controversial. "Inspiration is part of the answer, the rest is deeds and works. Wherever we get the inspiration, God, society, poetry, philosophy, life... It is all God." And "whether or not a person accepts the Baha'i Faith, or any faith, religion, creed or philosophy, it is that person's deeds and intentions over a lifetime that will attract the confirmations God has promised, both here and hereafter." If it takes me a while to get back to you we can blame this moderation software which doesn't appear to work very well. --Kent On Sep 16, 4:47=A0pm, Douglas McAdam wrote: > Dear friend- > This quote has always come to mind when I read about how anyone can =A0 > accept principles but they also need more. > "The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition =A0 > of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His =A0 > laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause =A0 > and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained =A0 > unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though =A0 > he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who =A0 > reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, =A0 > to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. =A0 > These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the =A0 > other." =A0(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 16) > > regards, > > doug > > On Sep 16, 2008, at 9:06 AM, mikera...@yahoo.com wrote: > > > > > > > Again, I couldn't disagree more. > > > Your position is tantamount to stating that since alot of kids will > > figure out basic math on their own being driven by financial needs, we > > shouldn't care whether or not they are taught it in school. Then you > > sit back and wonder why our economy is going south? > > > Not all Baha'is are perfect, but on a percentage basis, a few do > > arise from any given population to become good Baha'is and the rest > > tend to follow. Given this understanding, it should be appreciated > > that while many people or churches will come to accept Baha'i > > principles on their own, without ever having heard of the Baha'i > > faith, it still represents a shortage in the need for society at > > large. These inspired individuals or groups are not serving humanity's > > needs in a sufficiently organized manner. > > >> Important to God's great Purpose are not the words we speak or >the =A0 > >> groups to which we have enrolled. > > > Who could argue that God's purpose will transpire regardless, that's > > not the point. It's about how much we will suffer and lose along the > > way. =A0And to that end, we should worry.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Thu Sep 18 19:05:44 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 719BB4B0CC2 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2008 19:05:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FzmXOka2fGww for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2008 19:05:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id AECCB4B0CD3; Thu, 18 Sep 2008 19:05:43 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 18:06:06 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 07:28:42 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: Romane Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: God's Side? Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 21:28:21 +1000 Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server References: <5vudnWWnEpEAlU3VnZ2dnUVZ_j-dnZ2d@giganews.com> <67ydnYPMmLS6w03VnZ2dnUVZ_vednZ2d@giganews.com> <8dWdnQlJKsH490zVnZ2dnUVZ_vzinZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KgHgZ-0000na-47 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-cjxmz+RRZlcvE/aYoXovzwYE0l5VK49C/u0TpaPzGfs2pAzDZ4B/7N6ZUiHsEsp2BLoUQlWuU3gEUSl!sS2DIIe0tiORgAd8aAtEBHvh33zbTZeNEUoj/IvhoRR3/5RtiHcKDRWZZkdQNLdY5WsWP5t0fQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25299 Good morning Doug Both yes and no (Romane grins). Unfortunately, there is only a small space that can be utilised here, while the topic itself could have a hefty volume written. So can only minimally give here any form of answer. Baha'u'llah unequivocally states that we are to draw no distinction between any of the Manifestations : "Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers." (Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 59) The Bab, however, demonstrates conclusively the progressive nature of God's Revelation, starting on page 105, through to page 108 of "Selections from the Writings of the Bab", to which I strongly refer you. He speaks of the fruits of the previous Dispensations being gathered. I will quote just one small part of it : "It is clear and evident that the object of all preceding Dispensations hath been to pave the way for the advent of Muhammad, the Apostle of God. These, including the Muhammadan Dispensation, have had, in their turn, as their objective the Revelation proclaimed by the Q=E1'im. The purpose underlying this Revelation, as well as those that preceded it, has, in like manner, been to announce the advent of the Faith of Him Whom God will make manifest. And this Faith -- the Faith of Him Whom God will make manifest -- in its turn, together with all the Revelations gone before it, have as their object the Manifestation destined to succeed it. And the latter, no less than all the Revelations preceding it, prepare the way for the Revelation which is yet to follow." (Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 105) But as regards recognition of the Revelation brought by the Blessed Beauty, we have Baha'u'llah saying : "Know thou that he is truly learned who hath acknowledged My Revelation, and drunk from the Ocean of My knowledge, and soared in the atmosphere of My love, and cast away all else besides Me, and taken firm hold on that which hath been sent down from the Kingdom of My wondrous utterance." (Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 82) Or that well-known statement from the "Tablet of Ahmad" - "..., he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past..." But the argument would be incomplete if some of the consequences were not mentioned. An intimation, very brief, is given, I believe, on page 80 of the Kitab-i-Iqan, where Baha'u'llah speaks of "the adherents of Jesus" who have "refused to acknowledge, even until now, the truth of those Manifestations of Holiness that have since the days of Jesus been made manifest", and have "thus deprived themselves of the outpourings of God's holy grace, and of the wonders of His divine utterance.". My warmest greetings Romane Douglas McAdam wrote: > Dear Romane- > I'm wondering how this is to be applied. For example if a person is > earnestly seeks the Truth and finds the object of his longing in > accepting Jesus or Muhammad say and then strives to be steadfast in > obedience has he been obedient to this command? > My belief is that the Bab, Baha'u'llah, or the Master, when using the > terms such as "Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation", or > "Godhead", or the "Desire of the World" and others means Baha'u'llah, > the Glory of God. Afterall the Baha'i Writings inform us that the > Prophets or Manifestations are One but appear to us in a different huma n > body from time to time and bring us new laws to live by in order to > advance civilization. > My understanding is that if a person is a believer in God and accept Hi s > Manifestation and then steadfastly strives to obey His command then > that soul will more readily recognize the Return when the Manifestation > reappears to bring us new knowledge. > However I seem to recall something, I think by the Hand of the Cause, > saying that many Babis did not come forward because of their attachment > to the love of the Bab. > > regards, > doug > > > On Sep 16, 2008, at 9:29 PM, Romane wrote: > >> Good morning >> >> A statement re-iterated in many places in the Sacred Words of the Bab >> and of Baha'u'llah. As an example : >> >> "The supreme cause for creating the world and all that is therein is >> for man to know God. In this Day whosoever is guided by the fragrance >> of the raiment of His mercy to gain admittance into the pristine >> Abode, which is the station of recognizing the Source of divine >> commandments and the Dayspring of His Revelation, hath everlastingly >> attained unto all good. Having reached this lofty station a twofold >> obligation resteth upon every soul. One is to be steadfast in the >> Cause with such steadfastness that were all the peoples of the world >> to attempt to prevent him from turning to the Source of Revelation, >> they would be powerless to do so. The other is observance of the >> divine ordinances which have streamed forth from the wellspring of His >> heavenly-propelled Pen. For man's knowledge of God cannot develop >> fully and adequately save by observing whatsoever hath been ordained >> by Him and is set forth in His heavenly Book." (Tablets of >> Baha'u'llah, p. 268) >> >> With warm greetings >> >> Romane >> >> >> >> Douglas McAdam wrote: >>> Dear friend- >>> This quote has always come to mind when I read about how anyone can >>> accept principles but they also need more. >>> "The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition >>> of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His >>> laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause >>> and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained >>> unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though >>> he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who >>> reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent >>> glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the >>> world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable >>> without the other." (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 16) >>> regards, >>> doug >> > > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Thu Sep 18 22:12:26 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 458C84B0764 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2008 22:12:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ujyjX2YLUiko for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2008 22:12:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 314224B0801; Thu, 18 Sep 2008 22:12:24 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 21:12:39 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 21:38:10 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: God's Side? Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 18:33:42 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <5vudnWWnEpEAlU3VnZ2dnUVZ_j-dnZ2d@giganews.com> <67ydnYPMmLS6w03VnZ2dnUVZ_vednZ2d@giganews.com> <8dWdnQlJKsH490zVnZ2dnUVZ_vzinZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KgUwf-0006d1-Mg X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-WEPyB/tgvy8D8iXzX/PNPTYxtwl19twuk/MvYB0N10jOhkbwkeSfdrCfA8m1UyJtBJ3kTdnHtOB6syi!4NTeXkebjqZfV/h5dKMC7gxyvXcKVziJg8HhYlG/kf3s4cQLab3cMhVh08wHPR2bEYbY1Uyzwg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 X-Original-Bytes: 11154 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25300 Hi Romane, The heart of this discussion is in your end quote: > "...where Baha'u'llah speaks of "the adherents of > Jesus" who have "refused to acknowledge, even until now, the truth of > those Manifestations of Holiness that have since the days of Jesus been > made manifest", and have "thus deprived themselves of the outpourings of > God's holy grace, and of the wonders of His divine utterance We all know the wonders of His utterance, but let's talk about grace. These Christians have deprived themselves of something other than the Baha'i Writings, right? They are deprived of what Baha'u'llah calls, in this quote: "the outpourings of God's holy grace." Can you give an example of that grace? I wonder if you know my answer to the question. I don't believe grace is a metaphysical intangible, but rather a character trait. The largest measure of God's grace is manifest in the grace of His followers. 1. Seemingly effortless beauty or charm of movement, form, or proportion. 2. A characteristic or quality pleasing for its charm or refinement. 3. A sense of fitness or propriety. 4. a. A disposition to be generous or helpful; goodwill. b. Mercy; clemency. Perhaps at this point you can guess how I believe one acquired grace: a lifetime of deeds inspired by God, however we have discovered or named Him. --Kent On Sep 18, 7:28=A0am, Romane wrote: > Good morning Doug > > Both yes and no (Romane grins). Unfortunately, there is only a small > space that can be utilised here, while the topic itself could have a > hefty volume written. So can only minimally give here any form of answer. > > Baha'u'llah unequivocally states that we are to draw no distinction > between any of the Manifestations : > > "Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any > distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to > discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed > their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye > be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, > moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these > Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever > they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a > reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible > difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their > acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His > signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers." (Gleanings from the > Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 59) > > The Bab, however, demonstrates conclusively the progressive nature of > God's Revelation, starting on page 105, through to page 108 of > "Selections from the Writings of the Bab", to which I strongly refer > you. He speaks of the fruits of the previous Dispensations being > gathered. I will quote just one small part of it : > > "It is clear and evident that the object of all preceding Dispensations > hath been to pave the way for the advent of Muhammad, the Apostle of > God. These, including the Muhammadan Dispensation, have had, in their > turn, as their objective the Revelation proclaimed by the Q=E1'im. The > purpose underlying this Revelation, as well as those that preceded it, > has, in like manner, been to announce the advent of the Faith of Him > Whom God will make manifest. And this Faith -- the Faith of Him Whom God > will make manifest -- in its turn, together with all the Revelations > gone before it, have as their object the Manifestation destined to > succeed it. And the latter, no less than all the Revelations preceding > it, prepare the way for the Revelation which is yet to follow." > (Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 105) > > But as regards recognition of the Revelation brought by the Blessed > Beauty, we have Baha'u'llah saying : > > "Know thou that he is truly learned who hath acknowledged My Revelation, > and drunk from the Ocean of My knowledge, and soared in the atmosphere > of My love, and cast away all else besides Me, and taken firm hold on > that which hath been sent down from the Kingdom of My wondrous > utterance." (Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 82) > > Or that well-known statement from the "Tablet of Ahmad" - "..., he who > turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of > the past..." > > But the argument would be incomplete if some of the consequences were > not mentioned. An intimation, very brief, is given, I believe, on page > 80 of the Kitab-i-Iqan, where Baha'u'llah speaks of "the adherents of > Jesus" who have "refused to acknowledge, even until now, the truth of > those Manifestations of Holiness that have since the days of Jesus been > made manifest", and have "thus deprived themselves of the outpourings of > God's holy grace, and of the wonders of His divine utterance.". > > My warmest greetings > > Romane > > > > > > Douglas McAdam wrote: > > Dear Romane- > > I'm wondering how this is to be applied. =A0For example if a person is > > earnestly seeks the Truth and finds the object of his longing in > > accepting Jesus or Muhammad say and then strives to be steadfast in > > obedience has he been obedient to this command? > > My belief is that the Bab, Baha'u'llah, or the Master, when using the > > terms such as "Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation", or > > "Godhead", or the "Desire of the World" and others means Baha'u'llah, > > the Glory of God. =A0Afterall the Baha'i Writings inform us that the > > Prophets or Manifestations are One but appear to us in a different huma > n > > body from time to time and bring us new laws to live by in order to > > advance civilization. > > My understanding is that if a person is a believer in God and accept Hi > s > > Manifestation and then steadfastly strives to obey His command then =A0 > > that soul will more readily recognize the Return when the Manifestation > > reappears to bring us new knowledge. > > However I seem to recall something, I think by the Hand of the Cause, > > saying that many Babis did not come forward because of their attachment > > to the love of the Bab. > > > regards, > > doug > > > On Sep 16, 2008, at 9:29 PM, Romane wrote: > > >> Good morning > > >> A statement re-iterated in many places in the Sacred Words of the Bab > >> and of Baha'u'llah. As an example : > > >> "The supreme cause for creating the world and all that is therein is > >> for man to know God. In this Day whosoever is guided by the fragrance > >> of the raiment of His mercy to gain admittance into the pristine > >> Abode, which is the station of recognizing the Source of divine > >> commandments and the Dayspring of His Revelation, hath everlastingly > >> attained unto all good. Having reached this lofty station a twofold > >> obligation resteth upon every soul. One is to be steadfast in the > >> Cause with such steadfastness that were all the peoples of the world > >> to attempt to prevent him from turning to the Source of Revelation, > >> they would be powerless to do so. The other is observance of the > >> divine ordinances which have streamed forth from the wellspring of His > >> heavenly-propelled Pen. For man's knowledge of God cannot develop > >> fully and adequately save by observing whatsoever hath been ordained > >> by Him and is set forth in His heavenly Book." (Tablets of > >> Baha'u'llah, p. 268) > > >> With warm greetings > > >> Romane > > >> Douglas McAdam wrote: > >>> Dear friend- > >>> This quote has always come to mind when I read about how anyone can > >>> accept principles but they also need more. > >>> "The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition > >>> of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His > >>> laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause > >>> and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained > >>> unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though > >>> he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who > >>> reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent > >>> glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the > >>> world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable > >>> without the other." =A0(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 16) > >>> regards, > >>> doug- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Fri Sep 19 19:25:42 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A549C4B059F for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2008 19:25:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0xhzErmlHUP1 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2008 19:25:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id CCD474B0593; Fri, 19 Sep 2008 19:25:41 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 18:25:39 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 07:29:08 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: Romane Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: God's Side? Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 21:28:42 +1000 Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server References: <5vudnWWnEpEAlU3VnZ2dnUVZ_j-dnZ2d@giganews.com> <67ydnYPMmLS6w03VnZ2dnUVZ_vednZ2d@giganews.com> <8dWdnQlJKsH490zVnZ2dnUVZ_vzinZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KgeAY-00038n-Sp X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-ps1+G2uEj9wK7Jo9Q4jt/lqveYDL8y8BGkgmhuWVWDrtWL/3Rarrat0DoCtpkWEgBoRL2lx6L0HWvhr!DKt0Pj5/Z7iScpjsJu9HymCA6L0ymhoxLkLrXykI04y+nZx8lLXjSuDafwMsaZD4I4B2PLHIEQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25301 Good morning Kent Suffice it to say that I generally disagree with pretty much every opinion you have expressed in this forum, but it is as simple as I cannot be bothered entering into a discussion I consider a waste of time. So no, am not going to cater to the needs I perceive in you - you are free to your own opinion, me to mine. With greetings Romane compx2 wrote: > Hi Romane, > > The heart of this discussion is in your end quote: > >> "...where Baha'u'llah speaks of "the adherents of >> Jesus" who have "refused to acknowledge, even until now, the truth of >> those Manifestations of Holiness that have since the days of Jesus bee n >> made manifest", and have "thus deprived themselves of the outpourings of >> God's holy grace, and of the wonders of His divine utterance > > We all know the wonders of His utterance, but let's talk about grace. > > These Christians have deprived themselves of something other than the > Baha'i Writings, right? They are deprived of what Baha'u'llah calls, > in this quote: "the outpourings of God's holy grace." Can you give an > example of that grace? > > I wonder if you know my answer to the question. I don't believe grace > is a metaphysical intangible, but rather a character trait. The > largest measure of God's grace is manifest in the grace of His > followers. > > 1. Seemingly effortless beauty or charm of movement, form, or > proportion. > 2. A characteristic or quality pleasing for its charm or refinement. > 3. A sense of fitness or propriety. > 4. a. A disposition to be generous or helpful; goodwill. b. Mercy; > clemency. > > Perhaps at this point you can guess how I believe one acquired grace: > a lifetime of deeds inspired by God, however we have discovered or > named Him. > > --Kent > > > > > On Sep 18, 7:28 am, Romane wrote: >> Good morning Doug >> >> Both yes and no (Romane grins). Unfortunately, there is only a small >> space that can be utilised here, while the topic itself could have a >> hefty volume written. So can only minimally give here any form of answ er. >> >> Baha'u'llah unequivocally states that we are to draw no distinction >> between any of the Manifestations : >> >> "Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make a ny >> distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to >> discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed >> their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye >> be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, >> moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these >> Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoev er >> they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a >> reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possibl e >> difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their >> acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His >> signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers." (Gleanings from the >> Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 59) >> >> The Bab, however, demonstrates conclusively the progressive nature of >> God's Revelation, starting on page 105, through to page 108 of >> "Selections from the Writings of the Bab", to which I strongly refer >> you. He speaks of the fruits of the previous Dispensations being >> gathered. I will quote just one small part of it : >> >> "It is clear and evident that the object of all preceding Dispensation s >> hath been to pave the way for the advent of Muhammad, the Apostle of >> God. These, including the Muhammadan Dispensation, have had, in their >> turn, as their objective the Revelation proclaimed by the Q=E1'im. The >> purpose underlying this Revelation, as well as those that preceded it, >> has, in like manner, been to announce the advent of the Faith of Him >> Whom God will make manifest. And this Faith -- the Faith of Him Whom G od >> will make manifest -- in its turn, together with all the Revelations >> gone before it, have as their object the Manifestation destined to >> succeed it. And the latter, no less than all the Revelations preceding >> it, prepare the way for the Revelation which is yet to follow." >> (Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 105) >> >> But as regards recognition of the Revelation brought by the Blessed >> Beauty, we have Baha'u'llah saying : >> >> "Know thou that he is truly learned who hath acknowledged My Revelatio n, >> and drunk from the Ocean of My knowledge, and soared in the atmosphere >> of My love, and cast away all else besides Me, and taken firm hold on >> that which hath been sent down from the Kingdom of My wondrous >> utterance." (Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 82) >> >> Or that well-known statement from the "Tablet of Ahmad" - "..., he who >> turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of >> the past..." >> >> But the argument would be incomplete if some of the consequences were >> not mentioned. An intimation, very brief, is given, I believe, on page >> 80 of the Kitab-i-Iqan, where Baha'u'llah speaks of "the adherents of >> Jesus" who have "refused to acknowledge, even until now, the truth of >> those Manifestations of Holiness that have since the days of Jesus bee n >> made manifest", and have "thus deprived themselves of the outpourings of >> God's holy grace, and of the wonders of His divine utterance.". >> >> My warmest greetings >> >> Romane >> >> >> >> >> >> Douglas McAdam wrote: >>> Dear Romane- >>> I'm wondering how this is to be applied. For example if a person is >>> earnestly seeks the Truth and finds the object of his longing in >>> accepting Jesus or Muhammad say and then strives to be steadfast in >>> obedience has he been obedient to this command? >>> My belief is that the Bab, Baha'u'llah, or the Master, when using the >>> terms such as "Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation", or >>> "Godhead", or the "Desire of the World" and others means Baha'u'llah, >>> the Glory of God. Afterall the Baha'i Writings inform us that the >>> Prophets or Manifestations are One but appear to us in a different hu ma >> n >>> body from time to time and bring us new laws to live by in order to >>> advance civilization. >>> My understanding is that if a person is a believer in God and accept Hi >> s >>> Manifestation and then steadfastly strives to obey His command then >>> that soul will more readily recognize the Return when the Manifestati on >>> reappears to bring us new knowledge. >>> However I seem to recall something, I think by the Hand of the Cause, >>> saying that many Babis did not come forward because of their attachme nt >>> to the love of the Bab. >>> regards, >>> doug >>> On Sep 16, 2008, at 9:29 PM, Romane wrote: >>>> Good morning >>>> A statement re-iterated in many places in the Sacred Words of the Ba b >>>> and of Baha'u'llah. As an example : >>>> "The supreme cause for creating the world and all that is therein is >>>> for man to know God. In this Day whosoever is guided by the fragranc e >>>> of the raiment of His mercy to gain admittance into the pristine >>>> Abode, which is the station of recognizing the Source of divine >>>> commandments and the Dayspring of His Revelation, hath everlastingly >>>> attained unto all good. Having reached this lofty station a twofold >>>> obligation resteth upon every soul. One is to be steadfast in the >>>> Cause with such steadfastness that were all the peoples of the world >>>> to attempt to prevent him from turning to the Source of Revelation, >>>> they would be powerless to do so. The other is observance of the >>>> divine ordinances which have streamed forth from the wellspring of H is >>>> heavenly-propelled Pen. For man's knowledge of God cannot develop >>>> fully and adequately save by observing whatsoever hath been ordained >>>> by Him and is set forth in His heavenly Book." (Tablets of >>>> Baha'u'llah, p. 268) >>>> With warm greetings >>>> Romane >>>> Douglas McAdam wrote: >>>>> Dear friend- >>>>> This quote has always come to mind when I read about how anyone can >>>>> accept principles but they also need more. >>>>> "The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recogniti on >>>>> of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of H is >>>>> laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause >>>>> and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained >>>>> unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, thou gh >>>>> he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who >>>>> reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent >>>>> glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the >>>>> world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable >>>>> without the other." (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 16) >>>>> regards, >>>>> doug- Hide quoted text - >> - Show quoted text - > > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Fri Sep 19 21:32:06 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8E034B05E4 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2008 21:32:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I87Hpetri1Ls for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2008 21:32:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id AB6EA4B0726; Fri, 19 Sep 2008 21:32:04 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 20:32:45 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 21:09:49 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: God's Side? Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 18:07:52 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <5vudnWWnEpEAlU3VnZ2dnUVZ_j-dnZ2d@giganews.com> <67ydnYPMmLS6w03VnZ2dnUVZ_vednZ2d@giganews.com> <8dWdnQlJKsH490zVnZ2dnUVZ_vzinZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kgqyl-0004qG-CE X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-zj5aGb+uqJqaKsTjnScXjxP6rHAzk6g9fLjqUmAbeW+RPnoMhrMTu8YoLWrzctLPhFXalIQDIvrOaCR!PFPO3YIOr+DM7RqrUU7PTxt55BIX6JD4xjDrTlwdXikLVIuElDYuEEdb75DUFNpBZ8Flt8Xg1Q== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25302 Good evening, Romane. The needs you perceive in me? Teaching the Baha'i Faith to those who misunderstand it the most. "Adorn the body of Thy kingdom with the raiment of My name, and arise, then, to teach My Cause. Better is this for thee than that which thou possessest. God will, thereby, exalt thy name among all the kings. Potent is He over all things. Walk thou amongst men in the name of God, and by the power of His might, that thou mayest show forth His signs amidst the peoples of the earth." (Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 53) --Kent On Sep 19, 7:28=A0am, Romane wrote: > Good morning Kent > > Suffice it to say that I generally disagree with pretty much every > opinion you have expressed in this forum, but it is as simple as I > cannot be bothered entering into a discussion I consider a waste of > time. So no, am not going to cater to the needs I perceive in you - you > are free to your own opinion, me to mine. > > With greetings > > Romane > > > > > > compx2 wrote: > > Hi Romane, > > > The heart of this discussion is in your end quote: > > >> "...where Baha'u'llah speaks of "the adherents of > >> Jesus" who have "refused to acknowledge, even until now, the truth of > >> those Manifestations of Holiness that have since the days of Jesus bee > n > >> made manifest", and have "thus deprived themselves of the outpourings > of > >> God's holy grace, and of the wonders of His divine utterance > > > We all know the wonders of His utterance, but let's talk about grace. > > > These Christians have deprived themselves of something other than the > > Baha'i Writings, right? =A0They are deprived of what Baha'u'llah calls, > > in this quote: "the outpourings of God's holy grace." =A0Can you give a n > > example of that grace? > > > I wonder if you know my answer to the question. =A0I don't believe grac e > > is a metaphysical intangible, but rather a character trait. =A0The > > largest measure of God's grace is manifest in the grace of His > > followers. > > > 1. Seemingly effortless beauty or charm of movement, form, or > > proportion. > > 2. A characteristic or quality pleasing for its charm or refinement. > > 3. A sense of fitness or propriety. > > 4. a. A disposition to be generous or helpful; goodwill. b. Mercy; > > clemency. > > > Perhaps at this point you can guess how I believe one acquired grace: > > a lifetime of deeds inspired by God, however we have discovered or > > named Him. > > > --Kent > > > On Sep 18, 7:28 am, Romane wrote: > >> Good morning Doug > > >> Both yes and no (Romane grins). Unfortunately, there is only a small > >> space that can be utilised here, while the topic itself could have a > >> hefty volume written. So can only minimally give here any form of answ > er. > > >> Baha'u'llah unequivocally states that we are to draw no distinction > >> between any of the Manifestations : > > >> "Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make a > ny > >> distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to > >> discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed > >> their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if > ye > >> be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, > >> moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these > >> Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoev > er > >> they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a > >> reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possibl > e > >> difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their > >> acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His > >> signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers." (Gleanings from the > >> Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 59) > > >> The Bab, however, demonstrates conclusively the progressive nature of > >> God's Revelation, starting on page 105, through to page 108 of > >> "Selections from the Writings of the Bab", to which I strongly refer > >> you. He speaks of the fruits of the previous Dispensations being > >> gathered. I will quote just one small part of it : > > >> "It is clear and evident that the object of all preceding Dispensation > s > >> hath been to pave the way for the advent of Muhammad, the Apostle of > >> God. These, including the Muhammadan Dispensation, have had, in their > >> turn, as their objective the Revelation proclaimed by the Q=E1'im. The > >> purpose underlying this Revelation, as well as those that preceded it, > >> has, in like manner, been to announce the advent of the Faith of Him > >> Whom God will make manifest. And this Faith -- the Faith of Him Whom G > od > >> will make manifest -- in its turn, together with all the Revelations > >> gone before it, have as their object the Manifestation destined to > >> succeed it. And the latter, no less than all the Revelations preceding > >> it, prepare the way for the Revelation which is yet to follow." > >> (Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 105) > > >> But as regards recognition of the Revelation brought by the Blessed > >> Beauty, we have Baha'u'llah saying : > > >> "Know thou that he is truly learned who hath acknowledged My Revelatio > n, > >> and drunk from the Ocean of My knowledge, and soared in the atmosphere > >> of My love, and cast away all else besides Me, and taken firm hold on > >> that which hath been sent down from the Kingdom of My wondrous > >> utterance." (Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 82) > > >> Or that well-known statement from the "Tablet of Ahmad" - "..., he who > >> turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers > of > >> the past..." > > >> But the argument would be incomplete if some of the consequences were > >> not mentioned. An intimation, very brief, is given, I believe, on page > >> 80 of the Kitab-i-Iqan, where Baha'u'llah speaks of "the adherents of > >> Jesus" who have "refused to acknowledge, even until now, the truth of > >> those Manifestations of Holiness that have since the days of Jesus bee > n > >> made manifest", and have "thus deprived themselves of the outpourings > of > >> God's holy grace, and of the wonders of His divine utterance.". > > >> My warmest greetings > > >> Romane > > >> Douglas McAdam wrote: > >>> Dear Romane- > >>> I'm wondering how this is to be applied. =A0For example if a person i s > >>> earnestly seeks the Truth and finds the object of his longing in > >>> accepting Jesus or Muhammad say and then strives to be steadfast in > >>> obedience has he been obedient to this command? > >>> My belief is that the Bab, Baha'u'llah, or the Master, when using the > >>> terms such as "Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation", or > >>> "Godhead", or the "Desire of the World" and others means Baha'u'llah, > >>> the Glory of God. =A0Afterall the Baha'i Writings inform us that the > >>> Prophets or Manifestations are One but appear to us in a different hu > ma > >> n > >>> body from time to time and bring us new laws to live by in order to > >>> advance civilization. > >>> My understanding is that if a person is a believer in God and accept > Hi > >> s > >>> Manifestation and then steadfastly strives to obey His command then =A0 > >>> that soul will more readily recognize the Return when the Manifestati > on > >>> reappears to bring us new knowledge. > >>> However I seem to recall something, I think by the Hand of the Cause, > >>> saying that many Babis did not come forward because of their attachme > nt > >>> to the love of the Bab. > >>> regards, > >>> doug > >>> On Sep 16, 2008, at 9:29 PM, Romane wrote: > >>>> Good morning > >>>> A statement re-iterated in many places in the Sacred Words of the Ba > b > >>>> and of Baha'u'llah. As an example : > >>>> "The supreme cause for creating the world and all that is therein is > >>>> for man to know God. In this Day whosoever is guided by the fragranc > e > >>>> of the raiment of His mercy to gain admittance into the pristine > >>>> Abode, which is the station of recognizing the Source of divine > >>>> commandments and the Dayspring of His Revelation, hath everlastingly > >>>> attained unto all good. Having reached this lofty station a twofold > >>>> obligation resteth upon every soul. One is to be steadfast in the > >>>> Cause with such steadfastness that were all the peoples of the world > >>>> to attempt to prevent him from turning to the Source of Revelation, > >>>> they would be powerless to do so. The other is observance of the > >>>> divine ordinances which have streamed forth from the wellspring of H > is > >>>> heavenly-propelled Pen. For man's knowledge of God cannot develop > >>>> fully and adequately save by observing whatsoever hath been ordained > >>>> by Him and is set forth in His heavenly Book." (Tablets of > >>>> Baha'u'llah, p. 268) > >>>> With warm greetings > >>>> Romane > >>>> Douglas McAdam wrote: > >>>>> Dear friend- > >>>>> This quote has always come to mind when I read about how anyone can > >>>>> accept principles but they also need more. > >>>>> "The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recogniti > on > >>>>> of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of H > is > >>>>> laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause > >>>>> and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained > >>>>> unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, thou > gh > >>>>> he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who > >>>>> reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent > >>>>> glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the > >>>>> world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable > >>>>> without the other." =A0(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 16) > >>>>> regards, > >>>>> doug- Hide quoted text - > >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sat Sep 20 10:17:12 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C06C14B072C for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2008 10:17:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UC1Y8DMU+a4n for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2008 10:17:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 495694B0735; Sat, 20 Sep 2008 10:17:12 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 09:17:33 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 02:11:53 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Reply-To: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" From: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai References: Subject: Re: God's Side? Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 16:12:10 +1000 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kgvh1-0002s5-Nu X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-vgRxx7lqoI9Se2CrcZseBrLzo8JTqDiUHryxrbdQY4ZQSFfuLWJVch/SVsS/9J9MiIQRjmKb9O7m+jo!gM0gwm/q+fA6HhvWF/gysh9xhBG99rUnOYYoffjln8Br1AFM/4I9Iqj8qNKUXNuQdCS9hYe6sg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118052 alt.religion.bahai:20960 soc.religion.bahai:25303 If God is all-encompassing then surely all sides are God's are they not? History has shown that the usage of "God's Side" has always been to "take God's name in vain" for the purpose of legitimising otherwise onconscionable deeds - usually involving robbery, murder, war, and genocide. If God is all-powerful, surely God has no need of a side, yet being all-knowing God understands the need of human beings to form sides in their contests for supremacy. Is the subject of this "side" not likewise party to a contest? Yet I put it to you that the very existence of sides as such is ungodly, for any God of religion (from religare meaning, "to bind together") is by definition, intent on unity and not the divisiveness of which, partisan behaviour such as taking sides is so diagnostic. Thus we may also argue that no side is God's because God is all-encompassing... ____________________________________________________________ Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the number@timothycasey.info to email. Philosophical Essays: http://timothycasey.info Speed Reading: http://speed-reading-comprehension.com Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security. Science & Geology: http://geologist-1011.com; http://geologist-1011.net Technical & Web Design: http://web-design-1011.com -- GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer today! From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sat Sep 20 10:17:31 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B80F34B0735 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2008 10:17:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WgZPr2C7fMVu for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2008 10:17:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id EDC204B073D; Sat, 20 Sep 2008 10:17:30 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 09:18:07 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 04:14:33 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Reply-To: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" From: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai References: <15a8538c-2400-4954-a7bb-7426743310dd@73g2000hsx.googlegroups.com> Subject: And then some... Re: Three Alifs. Something to think about Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 18:14:47 +1000 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kgxbq-0007ab-4b X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-vmUDuZdAWX0JWLm0KEYezekxQzJOXG8X/c3FPAgH5kicT0uV0UEWQjJcO1xEYczxFn2nIjDH45hGEU+!Mu+vYJFHPkw4FMdL/5huAVOHV4hsqG34lLoD6djDqbXJIpzx2V40i9qjzmxQ8bSWvIIxnM7Uzg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org alt.religion.bahai:20961 talk.religion.bahai:118053 soc.religion.bahai:25304 wrote in message news:15a8538c-2400-4954-a7bb-7426743310dd@73g2000hsx.googlegroups.com... > Here are references to think about if you realize that Baha’u’llah > was > the first Alif to appear after the Bab’s Mission. There are three > Letters BHA, in the Greatest Name, this Revelation, and two have > appeared, the Bab and Baha’u’llah................ > > The Bab cited in the book Selections from the Writings of E.G. > Browne > refers to Himself as “The (letter) Ba which permeates the water of > the > Letters, and the Point which stands at the Gate of the two > Alifs......” p. 215 Selections from the Writings of E.G. Browne > World as Text: Cosmologies of Shaykh Ahmad al-Ahsa'i > by Juan R.I. Cole, Department of History, University of Michigan, > Studia Islamica 80 (1994):1-23. Juan Cole gives this symbolic > meaning to the word ALIF in Arabic: > alif...............A......................al-Badi` > (Wondrous)....................Universal Intellect > Baha'u'llah states at the end of the Kitab-i-Iqan , "Revealed by the > `Ba' and the `Ha". The Bab being the Ba (B) and Baha'u'llah the Ha > (H) > of the Greatest Name, BHA, with the Alif (A) soon to follow. How interesting that the acronym for "Bottom Hole Assembly", used in the petroleum industry, should have such splendid spiritual connotations. Yet returning to the linguistics of origin, I wonder how one might reconcile the precocious appearance of a "Manifestation of God", symbolised by a vowel - in particular one that is usually dropped; with Kitab-i-Aqdas Section 37? Perhaps we may take the above-mentioned aspect of "Universal Intellect" to refer to that which we all possess, with implications after the idea that all who may hear the voice of God are Manifestations of God. If we take God to be the "power of attraction" (McKinney, 1912a), and thus at the level of human interaction God is love (MacNutt, 1912; McKinney, 1912b; Abbas, 1912; Abbas, 1913; Holley, 1945a; Holley, 1945b); then empathy is the voice of God that speaks through the conscience of every human being - making everyone a Manifestation of God. Although it can be argued cogently that this is not the intent of Baha'i literature (particularly with respect to the conspicuous rarity in otherwise spiritual discourse of words such as remorse, guilt, and qualm), I would submit that the presence of two conflicting maxims in the writings of Baha'u'llah, deny the certainty of either argument, if not the appearance of a prophetic successor itself. This speaks to the independent investigation of truth as an ongoing affair, wherein Baha'is may do better to make up their own minds as to how they individually understand the sacred literature, without any help from authoritative or otherwise consensual interpretation. References Abbas, `Abdu'l-Baha, 1912, "5th September Talk at Saint James Methodist Church, Montreal, Canada, Stenographic Notes", Promulgation of Universal Peace (compilation of talks given by `Abdu'l-Baha Abbas), Baha'i Publishing Trust, pp. 312-319 Abbas, `Abdu'l-Baha, 1913, "The Four Kinds of Love, 4th January Talk at 97 Cadogan Gardens, London", Paris Talks (compilation of talks given by `Abdu'l-Baha Abbas), Baha'i Publishing Trust, pp. 179-181 Holley, H., 1945a, "The Need of Divine Education", Foundations of World Unity (compilation of talks given by `Abdu'l-Baha Abbas), Baha'i Publishing Trust, pp. 72-78 Holley, H., 1945b, "The Quickening Spirit", Foundations of World Unity (compilation of talks given by `Abdu'l-Baha Abbas), Baha'i Publishing Trust, pp. 100-104 McKinney, E., 1912a, "Talk at Greenacre, Eliot, Maine", in Promulgation of Universal Peace, (compilation of talks given by `Abdu'l-Baha Abbas), Baha'i Publishing Trust, pp.253-261 McKinney, E., 1912b, "29th August Talk at Home of Madame Morey, 34 hillside Avenue, Malden, Massachussetts", in Promulgation of Universal Peace (compilation of talks given by `Abdu'l-Baha Abbas), Baha'i Publishing Trust, pp. 289-296 MacNutt, H., 1912, "30th May Talk at Theosophical Lodge, Broadway & Seventy-ninth Street, New York", Promulgation of Universal Peace (compilation of talks given by `Abdu'l-Baha Abbas), Baha'i Publishing Trust, pp. 155-161 At the end of time, "The Kingdom" may well be God's, but thy faith is thine. ____________________________________________________________ Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the number@timothycasey.info to email. Philosophical Essays: http://timothycasey.info Speed Reading: http://speed-reading-comprehension.com Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security… Science & Geology: http://geologist-1011.com; http://geologist-1011.net Technical & Web Design: http://web-design-1011.com -- GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer today! From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sat Sep 20 16:24:49 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C01C24B07F0 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2008 16:24:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zOJL-mf4G8Wi for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2008 16:24:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id D0D6B4B0670; Sat, 20 Sep 2008 16:24:47 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 15:24:47 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 15:32:26 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Reply-To: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" From: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai References: Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 05:32:47 +1000 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kh8Bp-0001d0-WD X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-O1AgsASL7MK89gVa9oBlIbwSg8UKRZSGMbDDKvt5CHj/FfY/sGgFeJM2d+yVUhS4oNxOr9+9JG/SwVO!O/mSiC/CiNCBMeGi92T+rviaPS7yWg1T+xODroBcnjQRR/cT3uDR/FlpfXj6H5acoFtWBCIsLw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118058 alt.religion.bahai:20964 soc.religion.bahai:25305 "compx2" wrote in message news:IdadnRDiyqNgsFXVnZ2dnUVZ_jOdnZ2d@giganews.com... [SNIP] "Baha'i writings" as such is an informal, if not colloquial term that, in my experience, has no consistent definition and the diversity of opinion as to what constitutes a "Baha'i Writing" lends support to this perception. In standard English (after Ogden), a term such as "Baha'i writings" could even be taken to include anything and everything written by any Baha'i at any time in any standing. May I add that the "acquired infallibility", as it applies by binary elimination to Exemplar, Guardian and UHJ alike does not include the authority to redefine existing terms of language (I've a more detailed discussion of the implication of the two types of infallibilities at: http://fieldcraft.eu/topics/bahai/institutional-infallibility-in-the-bahai-writings/index.shtml). Personally, I prefer to incorporate existing terms to wit: "Baha'i Literature", encompassing everything concerning the Baha'i Faith; "Baha'i Scripture", being the only the material attributed to Baha'u'llah "Baha'i Canon", being explicitly subject to definition by the UHJ Grouping literature by `Abdu'l-Baha and Baha'u'llah is also problematic owing to the fact that `Abdu'l-Baha, not being a "Manifestation of God" has only "acquired infallibility" - which grouping is most adequately represented by the combined authorship of `Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, and the Universal House of Justice. Perhaps the literature of such a group could be described as, "Baha'i Encyclicals". In spite of the obvious extra-Catholic analogue, the use of this term would still require declaration and definition sufficient to the scope of usage due to the lack of recognition for the term in a Baha'i context. I'd also add that arguments about the authority or acceptance of literature (including that with respect to Baha'i interests), completely lack any relevance to the accuracy or truthfulness of statements within that literature. It doesn't matter if the author is God Herself, overlapping magisteria of multiple maxims constitutes an irresolvable error, which cannot but contradict "essential infallibility". The founding of the Royal Society and the authorship of its charter had nothing to do with Manifestations of God, nor with God for that matter; and yet regardless the fallibility of its authors, the charter of the Royal Society has succeeded in devising the means by which schism is prevented. Once again, authority and consensus have nothing to do with the capacity of this charter to succeed where nearly every "Manifestation of God" has failed, as history confirms. My point is that while authorship is relevant to the crediting of one's sources, it is by no means a measure of accuracy. This accuracy of content, I believe, we must always investigate for ourselves, regardless the authorship. ____________________________________________________________ Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the number@timothycasey.info to email. Philosophical Essays: http://timothycasey.info Speed Reading: http://speed-reading-comprehension.com Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security. Science & Geology: http://geologist-1011.com; http://geologist-1011.net Technical & Web Design: http://web-design-1011.com -- GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer today! From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Sep 21 01:29:25 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CBA34B0802 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2008 01:29:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fH2drUW9Wzlr for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2008 01:29:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 082434B08BB; Sun, 21 Sep 2008 01:29:25 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 00:29:55 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 23:21:32 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: "Sock-Puppet'ullah" Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: God's Side? Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 20:21:17 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: k36g2000pri.googlegroups.com; posting-host=121.222.235.154; posting-account=nZjLhAoAAABCFfbHY7paKDb-XLERbXG0 User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-GB; rv:1.8.1.16) Gecko/20080702 Firefox/2.0.0.16,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KhFVn-0001MA-QL X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: <6pednbRgs9tORkjVnZ2dnUVZ_umdnZ2d@giganews.com> X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-eoPWXDWkBjNqSHuHnnAr4C0oAFAvN6GIALfzzAwatLyAOXRFg5VBhQvCZDETMjM3U4ukZmmOeQtB8FW!sy4g996Gt1zal8QC7BjNcxR7alrcCKevh76ujwQzOh0VyqZARciQxI+ZbyEtCt49BEALgRZWVg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118068 alt.religion.bahai:20968 soc.religion.bahai:25306 "When colorlessness became the captive of color, A Moses went to war with Jesus." -- Masnavi From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Sep 21 16:25:01 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 950C84B06FD for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2008 16:25:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pu-VeKmPklhW for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2008 16:25:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id E73DB4B0707; Sun, 21 Sep 2008 16:25:00 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 15:25:12 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 07:44:06 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: God's Side? Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 04:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KhNMA-00080b-So X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-YqsxhoipNmajHz3HVDoP4YFg5c5/bxrYlFhSyV285xJXMXe2ffmZyvIrX/JiTMmzM9OD30rT/RQ31ov!eALLtdiLXFvwR8My18uyNNSBOTl4xPZZs9AV2qbeFCSaNIdCverfSvz53xcznEE2iFS3+E/P8g== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118085 alt.religion.bahai:20973 soc.religion.bahai:25307 Hi Timothy. If "all sides are God's" that is pantheism, is it not? It seems to me that God is on the side of justice, truth, mercy, all the virtues, all the good. Which is the difference, the very reason we have progressive revelation. Every time God manifests He gives us teachings, tells us we need to be just, loving, to sacrifice for others. And He tells us that when we do we have rewards. And every time we hear those teachings we subvert them to "our prophet is better than your prophet". I think Baha'is who read this are doing just that. I think if a Baha'i thinks praying every day and obeying the institutions is what brings us rewards from God the Baha'i is misguided. What God wants from us is simpler, but because what He wants is so demanding we subvert it to merely prayer and obedience. Unless and until we, as a group, the Baha'is, "get it" we do not own the Cause of God and we are subverting the Baha'i Faith. He wants everyone, not just Baha'is, to arise and take the standard of justice and generousity, and virtue and nobility. And if we, as Baha'is, see others doing the same thing, those people are on our side, on God's side. No need to convert them, they already "get it". Teach the Faith of God as a reasonable, verifiable truth. If you acquire virtues for the Greater Good, and teach such to others your rewards and confirmations in this world and the next will be unspeakably glorious. Personally the teachings of Baha'u'llah are what brought me this realization, and you are welcomed to those teachings. They belong to humanity. But wherever you get the idea that you need to improve yourself and others through working for virtue and love and making everything we touch a little bit more like heaven, well the place that you got that idea is a fine place so far as I can see. That is God's side. --Kent On Sep 20, 2:12=A0am, "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" wrote: > If God is all-encompassing then surely all sides are God's are they not? > > History has shown that the usage of "God's Side" has always been to "take > God's name in vain" for the purpose of legitimising otherwise onconsciona ble > deeds - usually involving robbery, murder, war, and genocide. > > If God is all-powerful, surely God has no need of a side, yet being > all-knowing God understands the need of human beings to form sides in the ir > contests for supremacy. Is the subject of this "side" not likewise party to > a contest? > > Yet I put it to you that the very existence of sides as such is ungodly, for > any God of religion (from religare meaning, "to bind together") is by > definition, intent on unity and not the divisiveness of which, partisan > behaviour such as taking sides is so diagnostic. > > Thus we may also argue that no side is God's because God is > all-encompassing... > > ____________________________________________________________ > Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the num...@timothycasey.info to email. > Philosophical Essays:http://timothycasey.info > Speed Reading:http://speed-reading-comprehension.com > Software:http://fieldcraft.biz;Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security. > Science & Geology:http://geologist-1011.com;http://geologist-1011.net > Technical & Web Design:http://web-design-1011.com > -- > GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. Seewww.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC > The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. > If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM > Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer today! From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Sep 21 16:25:10 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89C264B0707 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2008 16:25:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HLRK47WupK3w for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2008 16:25:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id BF1694B070B; Sun, 21 Sep 2008 16:25:09 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 15:25:28 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 07:57:50 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 04:57:38 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: 25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KhNZT-0000vW-Me X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-oRPHeYSKLWMrHTKE4P1xwbMhrISj83pkZtSk293u5xXbbFtR+LodHKk9rGbcF4nWMCvmdB/0yo/0EXf!UYRhrJoNPT9+OOhygxFqtT9Zgo7LWa3KGdznsYqjukHQ4WNzIvwGyMz9uOqqEhvIenPsjw6W2Q== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118086 alt.religion.bahai:20974 soc.religion.bahai:25308 Hi again, Tim. "My point is that while authorship is relevant to the crediting of one's sources, it is by no means a measure of accuracy. This accuracy of content, I believe, we must always investigate for ourselves, regardless the authorship." You can't know the heat I took for not going even as far as you did on this. It seems to me the question of authorship, when a religionists regards the author as "infallible" is central to the question of accuracy. Sure, if you remove the idea of "infallibility" from the equation accuracy becomes verifiable individually. But those of us who have taken a pledge to investigate individually and follow teachings that include infallibility are forced to face this issue when someone says "but those are pilgrims' notes". Authorship is the measure of accuracy in this context, at least by a large faction of Baha'is, which includes me, btw. Whether or not it "should be" is not something you would want to debate around here unless you have an unusually strong stomach. But the gist of my argument is that the translated talks in several books attributed to 'Abdu'l-Baha accurately portray His thoughts and ideas regardless whether or not we can authenticate those ideas with Persian text which He read and approved. However, if some point is being disputed from an un-authenticated text more sources should be consulted. But without any reason, no contradictory teaching or idea, no glaring mistakes or misuse of period words or phrases, these books should be accepted as generally accurate. Thanks for reading, and should you need support against the multitudes with your controversial opinions I am here to bolster your right to investigate for yourself, and live with wherever your investigation leads you. --Kent On Sep 20, 3:32=A0pm, "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" wrote: > "compx2" wrote in message > > news:IdadnRDiyqNgsFXVnZ2dnUVZ_jOdnZ2d@giganews.com... > [SNIP] > > "Baha'i writings" as such is an informal, if not colloquial term that, in my > experience, has no consistent definition and the diversity of opinion as to > what constitutes a "Baha'i Writing" lends support to this perception. In > standard English (after Ogden), a term such as "Baha'i writings" could ev en > be taken to include anything and everything written by any Baha'i at any > time in any standing. May I add that the "acquired infallibility", as it > applies by binary elimination to Exemplar, Guardian and UHJ alike does no t > include the authority to redefine existing terms of language (I've a more > detailed discussion of the implication of the two types of infallibilitie s > at:http://fieldcraft.eu/topics/bahai/institutional-infallibility-in-the-. ...). > > Personally, I prefer to incorporate existing terms to wit: > > "Baha'i Literature", encompassing everything concerning the Baha'i Faith; > "Baha'i Scripture", being the only the material attributed to Baha'u'llah > "Baha'i Canon", being explicitly subject to definition by the UHJ > > Grouping literature by `Abdu'l-Baha and Baha'u'llah is also problematic > owing to the fact that `Abdu'l-Baha, not being a "Manifestation of God" h as > only "acquired infallibility" - which grouping is most adequately > represented by the combined authorship of `Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, a nd > the Universal House of Justice. Perhaps the literature of such a group co uld > be described as, "Baha'i Encyclicals". In spite of the obvious > extra-Catholic analogue, the use of this term would still require > declaration and definition sufficient to the scope of usage due to the la ck > of recognition for the term in a Baha'i context. > > I'd also add that arguments about the authority or acceptance of literatu re > (including that with respect to Baha'i interests), completely lack any > relevance to the accuracy or truthfulness of statements within that > literature. It doesn't matter if the author is God Herself, overlapping > magisteria of multiple maxims constitutes an irresolvable error, which > cannot but contradict "essential infallibility". The founding of the Roya l > Society and the authorship of its charter had nothing to do with > Manifestations of God, nor with God for that matter; and yet regardless t he > fallibility of its authors, the charter of the Royal Society has succeede d > in devising the means by which schism is prevented. Once again, authority > and consensus have nothing to do with the capacity of this charter to > succeed where nearly every "Manifestation of God" has failed, as history > confirms. > > My point is that while authorship is relevant to the crediting of one's > sources, it is by no means a measure of accuracy. This accuracy of conten t, > I believe, we must always investigate for ourselves, regardless the > authorship. > > ____________________________________________________________ > Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the num...@timothycasey.info to email. > Philosophical Essays:http://timothycasey.info > Speed Reading:http://speed-reading-comprehension.com > Software:http://fieldcraft.biz;Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security. > Science & Geology:http://geologist-1011.com;http://geologist-1011.net > Technical & Web Design:http://web-design-1011.com > -- > GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. Seewww.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC > The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. > If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM > Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer today! From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Mon Sep 22 20:28:17 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C85E4B061C for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2008 20:28:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1pA8im0UH7i0 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2008 20:28:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 8D1704B0678; Mon, 22 Sep 2008 20:28:16 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 19:28:50 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 09:05:43 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: mikeran37@yahoo.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: God's Side? Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 06:05:28 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <5vudnWWnEpEAlU3VnZ2dnUVZ_j-dnZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com; posting-host=76.214.135.108; posting-account=M_40MwoAAACezPB6m4wCKE4LAJjMzCeb User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Khl6f-0002yQ-Lg X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-0.302, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 2.30) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-htaKDS5ZNDhLWC3oQeILZ1EQPJmPa9B33JpX/7J5jBssCu0f8+ViAZGwxFU1NPaBj/V/hyYc/ciGppI!Y/Y8LvB/C33t32zaL2omls6KardAAUvXD9fsq0w3AwXgp2RsSCRjUWxqZLgAimaok1weLJC1ow== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 X-Original-Bytes: 4897 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25309 >Maybe my position is, in your terms, that those who figure out basic math on their own and take care of business are >gods compared to those with advanced degrees who go bankrupt or are otherwise a burden on others. If that is what you >are talking about, I think those who arise to math skills with or without what you consider proper help are exactly the >same. If I can surmise what you are stating here, is in effect that our educational system is a waste of time and money? In essence, I think this is your advocation. and again, If that is the case, I couldn't disagree more. As far as the Gods are concerned, you first need a golden calf which right now, might not be a bad investment because I think your gods may be failing you. >Has it been your experience that Baha'is are well organized? It depends. In this country, there is a definative lack of sufficient Baha'is to even consider legitimate organization. In countries like India, where there are schools, or in Iran, pre-revolution, where there where already Baha'i hospitals in the 60's, the answer is yes, they were amazingly well organized. Recenty in Iran, Baha'is organized a universty right under the nose of the government, until it was shut down. It's a matter of where you live, whose oppressing you, and your cutlure that determines the level of organization. It really all depends on where and whom you are talking about. Remember the Baha'i community is a world community and it would be a mistake to take your local experience as the norm. This leads me to your other issue. You are right in stating that if Baha'is don't act others will take up the slack, but wrong in the assumption about whom. If Baha'is in the US don't expand and meet the needs then the crown of wealth given to the US will move to another country with a more organized Baha'i community, ie. India. The US will systematically lose its' prominence and will fall to the sidelines. What has happened in India since the evolution of a larger Baha'i community there? Imagine if we continue on our path and ask yourself these questions. Do we need international environmental regulations to ensure our own productive crops? Do we need a multinational police force to take the heat and cost of terrorism off our shoulders? Do we need a global currency to stabilize our now global markets? What would globalizing the dollar do to our economy? Are these things necessary, how much longer do you want to shoulder both the tax cost and the environmental cost? The best question of all is what is going to happen to both our economy and food supply if these things are not in play. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Mon Sep 22 20:28:26 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 146B54B0763 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2008 20:28:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ajFGchPxSXIr for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2008 20:28:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id C02814B0764; Mon, 22 Sep 2008 20:28:25 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 19:29:02 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 11:07:02 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: mikeran37@yahoo.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: God's Side? Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 08:06:46 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com; posting-host=76.214.135.108; posting-account=M_40MwoAAACezPB6m4wCKE4LAJjMzCeb User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Khn03-0005D4-0r X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-0.302, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 2.30) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-eFzOF1zM/1R6JTdJHyQ02pDK2nF/j6aC0xTzErZE2skHCr3DlaQmEQScZnX6Bq2xoZKVxJ60GTjf9Eo!/jh/F9uubk9PWYyyFdoGvESpLHDdWn61dHYb9WBwE8YsdGjQqNXG8/qAIjFI4Dae02SE8HBIcQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25310 >Thus we may also argue that no side is God's because God is >all-encompassing... I look at it like this. Someone comes to your village and forewarns you that your irrigation techniques will eventually turn your land to waste and advises you on how to change. Instead of listening to him, you crucify him, and then proceed to convince the village of his stupidity and how the old ways are best. God's side is that ultimately whatever you decide you must either change or face starvation. The changes that will take place are inevitable, either way they will happen. The question is whether or not our village is going to starve in the process. When it happens, we can't very well blame God for abandoning his creation because after all, he warned you. The person to blame in my humble opinion are the people who arrogantly presume that the old ways are best and villagers who choose to relinquish their decisions to the village elder. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Mon Sep 22 23:44:31 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B03524B05EA for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2008 23:44:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ct3yIEKV0a1o for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2008 23:44:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id D8A8B4B061F; Mon, 22 Sep 2008 23:44:29 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 22:44:59 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 21:28:56 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: God's Side? Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 18:25:35 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <5vudnWWnEpEAlU3VnZ2dnUVZ_j-dnZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Khwhv-0002kg-Or X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: <3OWdnYTP2Oih-0XVnZ2dnUVZ_jqdnZ2d@giganews.com> X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-wjEdzpZVtXgsUxjhJCN/mFLdmZYuLOnZNBCGr11OwSjnwyM2eKVH6iyDbkTXYn6RV5dwkB+vRhGIGMH!MybGul/fDjWruu5joj2sCQvt2etqnxgGKiMfMYm6aOnNRtiEYG+Ew85sH2OGWhZSIiIM8iK8nQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25311 Hi Mike, It seems we are not communicating well. You: "Your position is tantamount to stating that since alot of kids will figure out basic math on their own being driven by financial needs... Me: "those who figure out basic math on their own and take care of business are gods compared to those with advanced degrees who go bankrupt or are otherwise a burden on others. You: "...we shouldn't care whether or not they are taught it in school. Then you sit back and wonder why our economy is going south?" Me: "I think those who arise to math skills with or without what you consider proper help are exactly the same" You: " ...our educational system is a waste of time and money? In essence, I think this is your advocation." Either you missed my point completely, you are insulting me directly, or both. My issue is whoever does God's work (basic math)is doing God's work, no matter what religion they belong to or what name they call God, whether they have heard of the Baha'i Faith or not. And believing in Baha'u'llah does nothing for anyone unless and until that belief motivates us to do God's work. And when we do, we are exactly as good as other who do God's work in whatever name they were motivated. --Kent On Sep 22, 9:05=A0am, mikera...@yahoo.com wrote: > >Maybe my position is, in your terms, that those who figure out basic mat h on their own and take care of business are >gods compared to those with a dvanced degrees who go bankrupt or are otherwise a burden on others. =A0If that is what you >are talking about, I think those who arise to math skills with or without what you consider proper help are exactly the >same. > > If I can surmise what you are stating here, is in effect that our > educational system is a waste of time and money? In essence, I think > this is your advocation. > > and again, If that is the case, I couldn't disagree more. > > As far as the Gods are concerned, you first need a golden calf which > right now, might not be a bad investment because I think your gods may > be failing you. > > >Has it been your experience that Baha'is are well organized? > > It depends. In this country, there is a definative lack of sufficient > Baha'is to even consider legitimate organization. In countries like > India, where there are schools, or in Iran, pre-revolution, where > there where already Baha'i hospitals in the 60's, the answer is yes, > they were amazingly well organized. Recenty in Iran, Baha'is organized > a universty right under the nose of the government, until it was shut > down. It's a matter of where you live, whose oppressing you, and your > cutlure that determines the level of organization. =A0It really all > depends on where and whom you are talking about. > Remember the Baha'i community is a world community and it would be a > mistake to take your local experience as the norm. > This leads me to your other issue. You are right in stating that if > Baha'is don't act others will take up the slack, but wrong in the > assumption about whom. If Baha'is in the US don't expand and meet the > needs then the crown of wealth given to the US will move to another > country with a more organized Baha'i community, ie. India. The US will > systematically lose its' prominence and will fall to the sidelines. > What has happened in India since the evolution of a larger Baha'i > community there? > > Imagine if we continue on our path and ask yourself these questions. > Do we need international environmental regulations to ensure our own > productive crops? Do we need a multinational police force to take the > heat and cost of terrorism off our shoulders? Do we need a global > currency to stabilize our now global markets? What would globalizing > the dollar do to our economy? Are these things necessary, how much > longer do you want to shoulder both the tax cost and the environmental > cost? > > The best question of all is what is going to happen to both our > economy and food supply if these things are not in play. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Sep 23 01:16:22 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DB394B070B for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2008 01:16:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6yi8tPVBkffE for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2008 01:16:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 6A33B4B075D; Tue, 23 Sep 2008 01:16:20 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 00:16:44 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 00:04:06 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Reply-To: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" From: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai References: Subject: Re: God's Side? Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 14:03:53 +1000 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Khz87-0007NH-7Q X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-jznsQFv+EI/7aaZ72bR8RW1rSSH91EpM6f5CTVPCP3ze4w2EZ7+/cAn7sDbi91ytGQksdPqtEnmU4zv!JuM5ha5noutwnsD2DpqhI8ZVK/vOydzV1Cm8kiVKNDV+7WhVYLksJLtJHJp/uKua3SpeC0h7EQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25312 talk.religion.bahai:118108 alt.religion.bahai:20983 wrote in message news:rNednYnwHuXTpUXVnZ2dnUVZ_j-dnZ2d@giganews.com... > > >Thus we may also argue that no side is God's because God is > >all-encompassing... > > > I look at it like this. Someone comes to your village and forewarns > you that your irrigation techniques will eventually turn your land to > waste and advises you on how to change. Instead of listening to him, > you crucify him, and then proceed to convince the village of his > stupidity and how the old ways are best. Yes but if God was taking sides, we wouldn't have that choice in the first place given the omnipotence of God - and it is this kind of theo-partisan thinking that forms the basis of a number of Atheist arguments, which I think, do no justice to the role of the idea of "God" in spiritual contemplation. We may talk of a side that is more sympathetic to human need in terms of the side of love, but terms such as "God's side" can be used by anyone, and generally characterise political agendas with questionable motives. This is because terms like, "God" have a different meaning for every individual, and thus can be used to legitimise an agenda without further examination. Regardless of the motives, "God's side" is always a partisan banner that is explicitly divisive. In your example, the people using "God's side" would be the village conservatives. I look at it like this. Someone comes to your village and forewarns you that your irrigation techniques will eventually turn your land to waste and advises you on how to change. When you ask this person to substantiate his claim, he says "trust me", or "because God said so"; and if you don't take his word for it, declares you an enemy of God - if not explicitly, then implicitly in the wording of address such as to make a show of great distrust in you, when it is you asking the questions and he who claims to have all the answers. Ironically, it is a matter of simple logic that only people with something to hide are afraid of questions. Later, you find out that the proposed changes do not account for the fact that your irrigation technique floods the land because you are growing rice and not wheat; and rice, unlike wheat, needs to be flooded - yet the messenger of change does not even supply the advice that you need to change your crops from rice to wheat in order for his suggestion to work! Nor does he supply the dietary changes necessary to avoid health problems inherent in the transition from rice to wheat (eg. how to avoid developing coeliac's disease). Implicit in the "Divine Physician" title as applied to the bringers of divine law, is the obligation to do no harm - and as such, divine law that does not in its legislation, examine all the uses of aught it proscribes, with the view to prescribing alternatives where the proscription in absence of which will cause harm; fails the test implicit in the title of "Divine Physician". For example, there is not a single proscription of alcohol in any culture or religion that specifically prescribes replacements for digestives such as amaros or alternative anti-oxidant sources such as red wine. This by itself makes the proscription unethical in the first place because not only is the proscription negligent and causes measurable harm, but the proscription also creates a restriction which is not paid for by its replacement with a less harmful liberty that wasn't previously available. This is especially true in specific types of alcohol consumption (eg. highly moderate & especially with regard to use in cooking) that does nothing to restrict the consumer's ability to think - especially where as much has been found to be beneficial to both body and mind (eg. antioxidants improve circulation which in turn improves intellect in addition to physical fitness). "God's side" is an obfuscation that replaces specificity with authoritarianism. This does not befit the strictly individual nature of the independent search for truth. ____________________________________________________________ Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the number@timothycasey.info to email. Philosophical Essays: http://timothycasey.info Speed Reading: http://speed-reading-comprehension.com Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security. Science & Geology: http://geologist-1011.com; http://geologist-1011.net Technical & Web Design: http://web-design-1011.com -- GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer today! From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Sep 23 01:16:26 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 036E94B075D for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2008 01:16:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6pk63Ji4pU+W for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2008 01:16:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 7E5164B07E8; Tue, 23 Sep 2008 01:16:24 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 00:16:50 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 00:47:14 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Reply-To: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" From: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai References: Subject: Re: God's Side? Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 14:47:51 +1000 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Khznr-0001zF-TF X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-RNlKkbE5RoFvx6Zgk2rjOx/RL6O4zX+aoq4oPBE/xUT384SeI3GzNznZMAL82crwDaEXWRQ0Q7PdCZh!07q0qEM92KDEo1KvQ+yvhm0i2HT2rSyFKdhkrboTtNdyCQvno8yyHhGab+/t8TlcngFMEB4vww== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118109 alt.religion.bahai:20984 soc.religion.bahai:25313 "compx2" wrote in message news:H82dnf0Le5w0MEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sbinZ2d@giganews.com... Hi Timothy. "If "all sides are God's" that is pantheism, is it not?" "It seems to me that God is on the side of justice, truth, mercy, all the virtues, all the good. Which is the difference, the very reason we have progressive revelation." [SNIP] I think that depends on how you define pantheism. I have to say that I find `Abdu'l-Baha's arguments regarding pantheism unconvincing - perhaps because I do not see the difference between a Creator and Creation that are one and a Creation and Creator that are separate. For me both are at once distinct and inseparable, and so in some contexts pantheism offers a more useful description whereas in others it does not. This is indicative to me of a misunderstanding on the part of both the for and against camps, of the context in which pantheism and its alternatives are set. I think that a truly omnipotent God has no need of a side, and attribution of a side to God is at once a denial of God's omnipotence and the attribution of a partner to God in the form of that "God's side". This supposed "partnership" with God is what I think I really find most objectionable about the whole "God's side" turn of phrase - and it's usage in history bears this out. To be on the side of justice, truth, mercy & all the virtues; all the "good" - This in my view is to be on the side of Humanity, which needs these things. However, God who does not need anything, cannot therefore have a side any more than She has a partner. Neglecting the potential disproof of the existence of arbitrary omnipotence as an attribute of anything including "God"; it can be said that it is far more honest to call the side of those virtues that benefit humanity, the "side of humanity" instead of the "side of God" which detracts from the real issue by speaking to God's apparent "need" of a defender to take Her side. One descriptor leads directly into the idea of what is good for humanity, whereas the other degenerates into metaphysical pseudo-philosophy about what is "good for God". What "is good for God" can and has been used to justify anything and everything, from human sacrifice to ethnic cleansing. What I am talking about is the fine line between spirituality and idolatry. In one we have God who as Creator is concerned with the welfare of Creation; specifically humanity. In the other we have God made into a solipsistic idol that exists only to rely upon the servitude of the "Creation" attributed to it. The choice of language can tell a great deal about attached agendas - and I can't buy a "God" who needs people to take Her side. "Humanity's side" on the other hand is much more to the point, and its transparency makes it the more honest alternative, if by "God's side" one refers to what will ultimately benefit humanity. This is just my opinion though, and everyone having a different body of experience to draw on, likewise has their own unique set of beliefs... ____________________________________________________________ Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the number@timothycasey.info to email. Philosophical Essays: http://timothycasey.info Speed Reading: http://speed-reading-comprehension.com Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security. Science & Geology: http://geologist-1011.com; http://geologist-1011.net Technical & Web Design: http://web-design-1011.com -- GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer today! From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Sep 23 10:13:52 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BE874B0679 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:13:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ha0U+zpaNPTg for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:13:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 08FD54B06F8; Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:13:52 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 09:14:16 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 04:16:57 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Reply-To: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" From: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai References: <6pednbRgs9tORkjVnZ2dnUVZ_umdnZ2d@giganews.com> Subject: Re: God's Side? Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 18:17:18 +1000 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Ki34d-0004xw-Bv X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-UK029/K4Cm//hL6Cfgd38W2oPZ+6m+TVN+h5Ci5E0pSLj8ekdJ9DUOy+S5LB1ucmOlV5bv1Prvp+1FJ!fRFpfi6o9ZskbZAsNd+jbXUclYih1EtYKc8MXLI/jDFUUXPhBDxp5B/SulNQkj5QnjJ7skBhBA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118124 alt.religion.bahai:20994 soc.religion.bahai:25314 "Sock-Puppet'ullah" wrote in message news:6pednbRgs9tORkjVnZ2dnUVZ_umdnZ2d@giganews.com... > "When colorlessness became the captive of color, > A Moses went to war with Jesus." > > -- Masnavi Are we not all prejudiced by the colour of our experience? Albeit with such ironic consequences... ____________________________________________________________ Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the number@timothycasey.info to email. Philosophical Essays: http://timothycasey.info Speed Reading: http://speed-reading-comprehension.com Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security. Science & Geology: http://geologist-1011.com; http://geologist-1011.net Technical & Web Design: http://web-design-1011.com -- GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer today! From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Sep 23 10:15:21 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8D784B08CA for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:15:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id il1gbgQDELG2 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:15:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 9A2634B08E4; Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:15:20 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 09:15:27 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 06:39:29 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: "Sock-Puppet'ullah" Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: God's Side? Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 03:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: n38g2000prl.googlegroups.com; posting-host=143.238.144.248; posting-account=nZjLhAoAAABCFfbHY7paKDb-XLERbXG0 User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-GB; rv:1.8.1.16) Gecko/20080702 Firefox/2.0.0.16,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Ki5Ik-0005oy-D9 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-z0UYD/fx0bmXcIeHreSQbaKIg2EWUKjL35GlpXzXKUYguo6c2UET8C5WEHOz7JiCcC1KnYPfdb0/nTJ!bgxTJXSdMgr/yWdbzjvNX1YXxg3zbEFl5GppngV1LWxNFPQkBgwDtiONA6uBhjcdKcXgISU01g== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118125 alt.religion.bahai:20995 soc.religion.bahai:25315 Tim, All discussions of Spirit and Divinity, God and Godhead, without recourse to some form of emanationism are tout court nonsense and more of the same. Abbas Effendi's discussion of "pantheism" is totally unconvincing and philosophically flawed. It is also unconvincing in the original Persian because obviously the man had not really digested the doctrine of the Unity of Being (wahdat al-wujud) in all its various implications, especially as it was dealt and modified by Shi'ites such as Mulla Sadra and finally expanded as into something else by Shaykh Ahmad al-Ahsai. However, note that the doctrine of the Unity of Being does not entail that everything is monochromatically divine. Grades and hierarchies inform the construct of all levels of the Kosmos. The Neoplatonism, the Hermetic tradition and Kabbalah are places to look into such questions with a bit more rigor. In any case, without getting into a long winded theological discussion, I invite you to look into the writings of Rene Guenon, especially his *The Multiple States of Being*: http://www.fonsvitae.com/rene-guenon-multiple.html I think for your type of probing metaphysical inquiry, Guenon's pure metaphysical writings can serve as a valuable springboard to reconsideration of the more symbolic and philosophically rigorous aspects of the great question amongst the Traditions themselves. How Guenon unpacks the issue I think you will find quite interesting. His *Symbolism of the Cross*, *Metaphysical Principles of Infinitesimal Calculas*, *The Reign of Quantity and the Sign of the Times* would also interest you considerably. Look at *Multiple States of Being* and you will never need the garbled and befuddled pseudo-arguments of Abbas Effendi ever again. W From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Sep 23 10:15:26 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B3E24B08CA for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:15:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UpjMCGWeb4Ch for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:15:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id C28A54B08E7; Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:15:25 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 09:15:36 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 07:30:04 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Reply-To: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" From: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai References: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 21:30:38 +1000 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Ki65j-0000NB-2u X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-CI4hfn3mWUXyOO8WjSmiIPRoAYFvToDl/ZF3NyHPUOmaCDnSanYrrXVeg7DsH6k1B2XQW4wTwDVFAq4!QjBkmy3eSyx4XLEbCeWJHJT+PIOudDtnZg5mdoOHADvVS4vrGXgFbh3ivsgApYS6I/Aao6q60Q== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118126 alt.religion.bahai:20996 soc.religion.bahai:25316 "compx2" wrote in message news:54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com... [SNIP] Hai Kent, Thank you. I believe I can imagine that heat. I've weathered a few storms of my own, and people aren't pretty when they are more interested in conformity than truthfulness. I think the whole issue of infallibility has some real problems. I regard the very idea of infallibility with deep suspicion because its function is to avoid accountability and more importantly infallibility is a means by which such fraudulent practices as the censorship of evidence may be justified. It is a fact that credibility of authorship does not guarantee accuracy. I can give many examples of howlers published by eminent doctors and professors. They are human, but as Christ pointed out (in very different words), problems of merchantability are bound to emerge when one exaggerates one's reliability; especially when God or Goddess gets dragged into it. Once again, author credibility, like its opposite number the ad hominem attack, is an intellectual sleight of hand designed to draw attention away from the evidence (or lack thereof). This intellectual sleight of hand makes claims to infallibility, however well justified, highly deceptive in nature. For this reason I now blindly reject all infallibility and argument by infallibility as an attempt to evade discussion of evidence. ____________________________________________________________ Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the number@timothycasey.info to email. Philosophical Essays: http://timothycasey.info Speed Reading: http://speed-reading-comprehension.com Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security. Science & Geology: http://geologist-1011.com; http://geologist-1011.net Technical & Web Design: http://web-design-1011.com -- GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer today! From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Sep 23 15:40:59 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9558C4B08DF for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2008 15:40:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a-YnftwJm9KV for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2008 15:40:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 48EFE4B0924; Tue, 23 Sep 2008 15:40:07 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 14:39:52 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 12:24:14 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: josephratz.ratz@gmail.com Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 09:23:56 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: w39g2000prb.googlegroups.com; posting-host=67.15.183.15; posting-account=kz8f-goAAACZak9VeqQ00V-5dHkMRNb3 User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.12) Gecko/20080201 Firefox/2.0.0.12,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KiAgJ-0001A9-EH X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-NU8o2m8dJh6/z+RT1IHv9ncrgrQPVGNGvqumMh6Poy+vI1A+eLPwY6JtNT2mb410Cysnk43xFS6LWNl!GtChEmv9twto/7Ujm09okRMcSoj2kxPON/mOPM1mmFxd82UFo7Fq7qRDYpiHXec43KwZg/Ju3g== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118128 alt.religion.bahai:20998 soc.religion.bahai:25317 On Sep 23, 4:30 pm, "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" wrote: > "compx2" wrote in message > > news:54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com... > [SNIP] > > Hai Kent, > > Thank you. I believe I can imagine that heat. I've weathered a few storms of > my own, and people aren't pretty when they are more interested in conformity > than truthfulness. I think the whole issue of infallibility has some real > problems. I regard the very idea of infallibility with deep suspicion > because its function is to avoid accountability and more importantly > infallibility is a means by which such fraudulent practices as the > censorship of evidence may be justified. It is a fact that credibility of > authorship does not guarantee accuracy. I can give many examples of howlers > published by eminent doctors and professors. They are human, but as Christ > pointed out (in very different words), problems of merchantability are bound > to emerge when one exaggerates one's reliability; especially when God or > Goddess gets dragged into it. Once again, author credibility, like its > opposite number the ad hominem attack, is an intellectual sleight of hand > designed to draw attention away from the evidence (or lack thereof). This > intellectual sleight of hand makes claims to infallibility, however well > justified, highly deceptive in nature. For this reason I now blindly reject > all infallibility and argument by infallibility as an attempt to evade > discussion of evidence. > > ____________________________________________________________ > Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the num...@timothycasey.info to email. > Philosophical Essays:http://timothycasey.info > Speed Reading:http://speed-reading-comprehension.com > Software:http://fieldcraft.biz;Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security. > Science & Geology:http://geologist-1011.com;http://geologist-1011.net > Technical & Web Design:http://web-design-1011.com > -- > GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. Seewww.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC > The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. > If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM > Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer today! From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Sep 23 15:42:24 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A3D54B0057 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2008 15:42:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bOHxMxSwbfzY for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2008 15:42:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id A065B4B05EA; Tue, 23 Sep 2008 15:42:23 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 14:42:24 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 12:25:21 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: josephratz.ratz@gmail.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Please let us teach the Faith in Israel Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 09:25:12 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: b2g2000prf.googlegroups.com; posting-host=67.15.183.15; posting-account=kz8f-goAAACZak9VeqQ00V-5dHkMRNb3 User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.12) Gecko/20080201 Firefox/2.0.0.12,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KiAhS-0001EF-IT X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-aHP8pFsYczw6bOO1X9yNocqX1OjkYjmA1QxpMgs2OoSHa3qr+jv0IDORoj0yupbqEsfMAiiXYmSpxkI!pLFqjMqKfDU7m5a0iQbjg0AYvDAbO87ngukJhMViJ8h7ZJ0GC98ee+soBW+Dm8Rp+k98c37LGA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25318 Dear Friends See this blog - its regarding converting Jews to our faith. It is very interesting http://jewbahais.blogspot.com From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Sep 24 16:09:22 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 530FD4B05D8 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2008 16:09:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ufTvj-u-Mave for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2008 16:09:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 05DD34B05A4; Wed, 24 Sep 2008 16:09:16 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 15:09:37 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 08:29:40 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: mikeran37@yahoo.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Please let us teach the Faith in Israel Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 05:29:29 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com; posting-host=76.214.135.108; posting-account=M_40MwoAAACezPB6m4wCKE4LAJjMzCeb User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KiTUv-0000bU-1k X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-0.302, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 2.30) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-gI8FiBPylDCg9qGjAnxjpW/HBJ/nwy6QX6Y8iBOpUGc9ZYqzYcO7m8p/YoHM7UmB0VoIAinEs4vD3/z!Q6+aooel3KG2gUVrqqCSKa/pYD/34d65PT0qZicsou2Z8Xy1RG6Uo7CRdedfSNsfXOr2walrMA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25319 On Sep 23, 11:25=A0am, josephratz.r...@gmail.com wrote: > Dear Friends > See this blog - its regarding converting Jews to our faith. It is very > interesting > > http://jewbahais.blogspot.com In general people do not convert to the Baha'i faith, they merely fulfill their heritage by recognizing Baha'u'llah. It would be a mistake to use the word conversion because this implies a turning away from Judaism. Jewish Baha'is have not given up their culture or heritage, just the opposite, they fullfill it. And I think it's a bad idea to throw prostelytizing into the already religiously divided state of Israel. That is why the Guardian has forbidden this. The Jewish community is the last community that needs teaching or our efforts, as a group they already exemplify many of the Baha'i principles. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Sep 24 16:09:42 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF8C64B09E4 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2008 16:09:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lI99ZJnAl0r0 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2008 16:09:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 275D04B09EE; Wed, 24 Sep 2008 16:09:41 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 15:10:22 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 08:31:50 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: mikeran37@yahoo.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai Subject: Re: God's Side? Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 05:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com; posting-host=76.214.135.108; posting-account=M_40MwoAAACezPB6m4wCKE4LAJjMzCeb User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KiTX1-000154-N7 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-0.302, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 2.30) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-sgl/vwarwIdYT5e/XVcnOm0IyQrril9oSFRVCg3wNSV7esJXfSVg5/rUBMdN5txun3SwEn8w04DgRnR!3WAZq6knDrRz3ByXkkqTG02qsAAkXkIY+de59vTXJCwaf2Qb0TACSgJlx9W813Ko2pWr2ioBhQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25320 talk.religion.bahai:118167 alt.religion.bahai:21014 >I look at it like this. Someone comes to your village and forewarns you th at >your irrigation techniques will eventually turn your land to waste and >advises you on how to change. When you ask this person to substantiate >his claim, he says "trust me", or "because God said so"; and if you Not so, Baha'is believe proof is in the word. The truths are self- evident. For example, at a time when the status of women in Iran was little better than cattle, Baha'u'llah proclaims the equality of men and women. >don't take his word for it, declares you an enemy of God - if not >explicitly, then implicitly in the wording of address such as to make a sh ow >of great distrust in you, when it is you asking the questions and he who c laims to >have all the answers. Really, this is why Baha'u'llah adovcated the independent investigation of truth. That we should do away with our ministers and investigate God's revelation for ourselves? The first teaching of Bah=E1'u'll=E1h is the investigation of reality. Man must seek the reality himself, forsaking imitations and adherence to mere hereditary forms. (Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 238) > For example, there is not a single proscription of alcohol in >any culture or religion that specifically prescribes replacements for >digestives such as amaros or alternative anti-oxidant sources such as red >wine. This by itself makes the proscription unethical in the first place >because not only is the proscription negligent and causes measurable harm, >but the proscription also creates a restriction which is not paid for by i ts >replacement with a less harmful liberty that wasn't previously available. >This is especially true in specific types of alcohol consumption (eg. high ly >moderate & especially with regard to use in cooking) that does nothing to >restrict the consumer's ability to think - especially where as much has be en >found to be beneficial to both body and mind (eg. antioxidants improve >circulation which in turn improves intellect in addition to physical >fitness). If through all of that you are advocating that alcohol consumption is somehow beneficial here are a few points to consider: 1. The Baha'i Faith leaves provisions by which a physician may prescribe daily red wine or anything else should it be deemed to benefit our health. But before you go getting soused up consider that a less publicized study implicates grape juice as being equally healthy without the side effect of damaging the liver. "Like wine, grape juice also contains antioxidants such as flavonoids, providing some health benefits. These anti-oxidants have been implicated in many epidemiological studies with a reduction in coronary heart disease and cancer. .....Typically, purple grape juice is made from concord grapes. A recent study published in the Journal of Agriculture and Food Chemistry found that purple grape juice was among the highest in antioxidants among the juices tested. Also high in antioxidant compounds were cloudy apple juice, cranberry juice, and pomegranate juice. [1] All fruit juices analysed in this study were purchased from a local supermarket. The choice of juices was based on the top selling flavours in the 2005 UK sales data. The study was funded by the USA National Grape Co-op of which Welch's is a member." 2. In regards to alcohol in general, 15,000+ people die per year in the US in alcohol related accidents. What about alcohol related, rape, child abuse, and molestation, alcohol induced liver cirrhrosis. Do you have a number? Looking at the big picture if we were to tally up the benefit to cost ratio of alcohol we'd find it to be up there with the plagues of the past. Yeah, the plague may indeed cure you of your headache. "An estimated 254,000 persons were injured in crashes where police reported that alcohol was present =97 an average of one person injured approximately every 2 minutes. There were 16,885 alcohol-related fatalities in 2005 =96 39 percent of the total traffic fatalities for the year. In 2004, the Federal Bureau of Investigation=92s Uniform Crime Reporting Program estimated that over 1.4 million drivers were arrested for driving under the influence of alcohol or narcotics. This is an arrest rate of 1 for every 139 licensed drivers in the United States. (2005 data not yet available.) In 2005, 21 percent of the children age 14 and younger who were killed in motor vehicle crashes were killed in alcohol-related crashes." taken from: http://www.alcoholalert.com/drunk-driving-statistics-2005.html This site just keeps on about the subject, but I think it makes a good point at 200,000 persons injured per year visiting an ER. How much does a single ER visit cost?? "Brief #111 (January 2006) shows average expenses for a visit to the Emergency Room were $560 in 2003. For people ages 45 to 64, the cost was substantially higher on average ($832). If a surgical procedure was performed during the visit, the average payment was $904. Overall range was $42 (10th percentile) to $1246 (90th percentile). " At a minimum of 500$. Let's see 500$ x 200,000 = 100,000,000$ million per year as a very conservative estimate. Forget the deaths, who do you think foots the cost? Of course cost really isn't an issue when it's you or your child that makes up a part of that statistic. To put the death rate in perspective, we invest millions into curing HIV. "Deaths from HIV/AIDS: 15,245 deaths in 2000 (NIAID); 14,802 deaths reported in USA 1999 (NVSR Sep 2001) " I haven't even touched liver disease, but I don't need to. That's your cost/benefit analysis of alcohol for you. I can't imagine being aware of these statistics and still believing that somehow the health benefits of alcohol outweigh its' risks. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Sep 24 16:10:33 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B40584B09E9 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2008 16:10:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bWNHca54AsI5 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2008 16:09:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 7ED314B09F0; Wed, 24 Sep 2008 16:09:46 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 15:10:31 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 08:39:48 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: mikeran37@yahoo.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: God's Side? Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 05:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <5vudnWWnEpEAlU3VnZ2dnUVZ_j-dnZ2d@giganews.com> <3OWdnYTP2Oih-0XVnZ2dnUVZ_jqdnZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com; posting-host=76.214.135.108; posting-account=M_40MwoAAACezPB6m4wCKE4LAJjMzCeb User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KiTeg-0001Wi-Sb X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-0.302, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 2.30) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-Q4Ei16nKFt0tirm1dNK2jTNUojmAc13UYe6yMR63Jx3dlm+fdPQFwm8dozwPFPaS7q26nCXSDEpDY6L!sF8/UjR3PnCPgRlElXtyXdEUcs4dAdkJBDhlvryCcyeQp/Y6gE8G1BDtT25fd2BeBmrCb1dt8g== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25321 >Either you missed my point completely, you are insulting me directly, >or both. My issue is whoever does God's work (basic math)is doing >God's work, no matter what religion they belong to or what name they Kent, I am appreciating your point but I think you've missed mine. I'll take your statement above to mean that you do believe education is necessary. My point: People need to be educated as Baha'is, because while it is true that some spiritually enlightened folks will figure it out on their own, there is no organized group out there teaching the total packaged principles of the Baha'i Faith other than the Baha'i Faith itself. For the very same reason that I send my child to school to learn math, our society needs to learn the Baha'i Faith. Without this education, our society will needlessly suffer. I know my child has the ability to figure math out on his own, but I also know his life will be alot simpler and easier and he will more readily propser if I teach it to him. You are lost in the arguement about whether or not individuals can be Baha'i without even knowing about the Faith, and my arguement is about the societies need for the Baha'i Faith. Not every student you teach will get an A+ in math and not every Baha'i you teach will do Gods' work. But it does little to change the fact in either case, that both need to be taught. Failure to do so is going to result in bad times for everyone. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Sep 24 16:10:55 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1396E4B09E9 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2008 16:10:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CzeGwM9OBMlU for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2008 16:10:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 004BE4B09F8; Wed, 24 Sep 2008 16:10:53 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 15:11:05 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 11:55:45 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Reply-To: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" From: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai References: Subject: Re: God's Side? Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 01:56:03 +1000 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KiWi4-0004Oz-Vn X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-I0Q3LTnGQSfRtu8sstduI6bEp67zIlMcZPkclEPe815faB4hk6TcFcWD2hOGlfDgPyOe53gjWm0inj/!gUVtKKScZ4ltmg5CmkFLbLSnlngC4gJth/TYnYej39v+XMALf9z6T9qVMWYnjlWIGejJj+4FcA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118168 alt.religion.bahai:21015 soc.religion.bahai:25322 "Sock-Puppet'ullah" wrote in message news:JvSdnRxOo4ViZEXVnZ2dnUVZ_rzinZ2d@giganews.com... > Tim, > > All discussions of Spirit and Divinity, God and Godhead, without > recourse to some form of emanationism are tout court nonsense and more > of the same. Abbas Effendi's discussion of "pantheism" is totally > unconvincing and philosophically flawed. It is also unconvincing in > the original Persian because obviously the man had not really digested > the doctrine of the Unity of Being (wahdat al-wujud) in all its > various implications, especially as it was dealt and modified by > Shi'ites such as Mulla Sadra and finally expanded as into something > else by Shaykh Ahmad al-Ahsai. However, note that the doctrine of the > Unity of Being does not entail that everything is monochromatically > divine. Grades and hierarchies inform the construct of all levels of > the Kosmos. The Neoplatonism, the Hermetic tradition and Kabbalah are > places to look into such questions with a bit more rigor. > > In any case, without getting into a long winded theological > discussion, I invite you to look into the writings of Rene Guenon, > especially his *The Multiple States of Being*: > http://www.fonsvitae.com/rene-guenon-multiple.html > > I think for your type of probing metaphysical inquiry, Guenon's pure > metaphysical writings can serve as a valuable springboard to > reconsideration of the more symbolic and philosophically rigorous > aspects of the great question amongst the Traditions themselves. How > Guenon unpacks the issue I think you will find quite interesting. His > *Symbolism of the Cross*, *Metaphysical Principles of Infinitesimal > Calculas*, *The Reign of Quantity and the Sign of the Times* would > also interest you considerably. Look at *Multiple States of Being* and > you will never need the garbled and befuddled pseudo-arguments of > Abbas Effendi ever again. > > W Thank you. Is multiple states of being similar to the ideas of Eckhart Tolle? He suggests that we are neither mind nor thought, heart nor emotion, body nor sensation; but a sum of these and more. How often do we say "I feel" instead of "my heart feels" or how often do we say, "I think" instead of "my mind thinks" when being is so much more than thought or feeling? ____________________________________________________________ Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the number@timothycasey.info to email. Philosophical Essays: http://timothycasey.info Speed Reading: http://speed-reading-comprehension.com Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security. Science & Geology: http://geologist-1011.com; http://geologist-1011.net Technical & Web Design: http://web-design-1011.com -- GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer today! From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Thu Sep 25 01:33:21 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A07CA4B08D7 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2008 01:33:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mP7sgFeLi6IN for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2008 01:33:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id AC2A44B0927; Thu, 25 Sep 2008 01:33:20 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 00:33:48 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 00:05:43 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: "Sock-Puppet'ullah" Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: God's Side? Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 21:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: x16g2000prn.googlegroups.com; posting-host=143.238.144.248; posting-account=nZjLhAoAAABCFfbHY7paKDb-XLERbXG0 User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-GB; rv:1.8.1.17) Gecko/20080829 Firefox/2.0.0.17,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kii6m-0006a3-Pa X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-iTnFfYBS2zaLdcs+317LYn3LJUFVDrJzdQHPIhQPp8uI9Tunk/lVge+qTMciSBWHaXiyCmCrgLTT0CX!8ITlBHZyZAsuy37wfyOAfHMGFzrmOqYh3fKUQGQAZdZIPWaYSNapoZuaaOgv5DqparIHNSFkaQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118191 alt.religion.bahai:21026 soc.religion.bahai:25323 On Sep 25, 1:56 am, "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" wrote: > "Sock-Puppet'ullah" wrote in message > > news:JvSdnRxOo4ViZEXVnZ2dnUVZ_rzinZ2d@giganews.com... > > > > > Tim, > > > All discussions of Spirit and Divinity, God and Godhead, without > > recourse to some form of emanationism are tout court nonsense and more > > of the same. Abbas Effendi's discussion of "pantheism" is totally > > unconvincing and philosophically flawed. It is also unconvincing in > > the original Persian because obviously the man had not really digested > > the doctrine of the Unity of Being (wahdat al-wujud) in all its > > various implications, especially as it was dealt and modified by > > Shi'ites such as Mulla Sadra and finally expanded as into something > > else by Shaykh Ahmad al-Ahsai. However, note that the doctrine of the > > Unity of Being does not entail that everything is monochromatically > > divine. Grades and hierarchies inform the construct of all levels of > > the Kosmos. The Neoplatonism, the Hermetic tradition and Kabbalah are > > places to look into such questions with a bit more rigor. > > > In any case, without getting into a long winded theological > > discussion, I invite you to look into the writings of Rene Guenon, > > especially his *The Multiple States of Being*: > >http://www.fonsvitae.com/rene-guenon-multiple.html > > > I think for your type of probing metaphysical inquiry, Guenon's pure > > metaphysical writings can serve as a valuable springboard to > > reconsideration of the more symbolic and philosophically rigorous > > aspects of the great question amongst the Traditions themselves. How > > Guenon unpacks the issue I think you will find quite interesting. His > > *Symbolism of the Cross*, *Metaphysical Principles of Infinitesimal > > Calculas*, *The Reign of Quantity and the Sign of the Times* would > > also interest you considerably. Look at *Multiple States of Being* and > > you will never need the garbled and befuddled pseudo-arguments of > > Abbas Effendi ever again. > > > W > > Thank you. > > Is multiple states of being similar to the ideas of Eckhart Tolle? You are a serious man, with a serious mind. Eckhart Tolle is popularized, sensationalized platitudinal drivel. Guenon died in 1951, long before Tolle was 'discovered'. Guenon's MULTIPLE STATES OF BEING is a work of pure traditional Metaphysics dealing with serious subjects. About Shaykh Abd'ul-Wahid Yahya Rene Guenon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Gu%C3%A9non >He > suggests that we are neither mind nor thought, heart nor emotion, body nor > sensation; but a sum of these and more. This is the Traditional Hindu teaching regarding the nature of the 'Atman', the traditional Platonic-Hermetic teachings of the World Soul, and the traditional Quranic Islamic teaching regarding the One Soul. W From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Thu Sep 25 16:17:57 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCE034B091F for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2008 16:17:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I0DJYEVqz3lS for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2008 16:17:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 47B844B0920; Thu, 25 Sep 2008 16:17:56 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 15:18:10 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 10:30:51 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=cwJVBDE/Pv1c6qn66IPt7Kn7wxs0Re4fWTp4rJeEIPptb2VchR4v1H3b86+UBnBQyvhNz1Jz7BW+sA+0yNS92ckrR/r5H8sPQ8ftZ52CvuDS52XRQ4xya5qUanOuO/cGff03ym9mPf+akT8r2JgeLo5u7NU/o5YXuVYNstryDwY= ; X-YMail-OSG: eNUGYx0VM1lnLAx_1zF.HqyDpP1Lps4_UBFQeSFj7bOCZZMCrUed0QFyfjavuws4X9AiBXJpZSBxjSUwFbcTEVGGqx4IXkJJnaReagwuBnyY1YfNiUrgEO43LlZ4Ow3Ayiml1UhM98hZd9HUzAPAE.mx1e6UzRx4yKIZb_0NisOjo9ZZKQ-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: God's Side? Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 10:30:34 -0400 References: X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kirrd-0004nw-94 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=0.1, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, DEAR_FRIEND 2.70) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-0dfKea0kxpQv8+zC+LoBWaJ3/eD52K6szLTfEcuRI5DIfV4K5IkGqBn35IlU4nKDw3Af26sy6IIlj4y!Z3UqTwcNAgzN6FExjuvQ4Yj6aD4yWAs+jX0puF3jtjfbJh4isADYPGgVDHThUryG6wFObvtJmA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25324 Dear friend- I hope you don't mind me asking but what does "Sock-Puppet'allah" mean and what is its significance? Just curious, doug On Sep 25, 2008, at 12:05 AM, Sock-Puppet'ullah wrote: > On Sep 25, 1:56 am, "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" > wrote: >> "Sock-Puppet'ullah" wrote in message >> >> news:JvSdnRxOo4ViZEXVnZ2dnUVZ_rzinZ2d@giganews.com... >> >> >> >>> Tim, >> >>> All discussions of Spirit and Divinity, God and Godhead, without >>> recourse to some form of emanationism are tout court nonsense and >>> more >>> of the same. Abbas Effendi's discussion of "pantheism" is totally >>> unconvincing and philosophically flawed. It is also unconvincing in >>> the original Persian because obviously the man had not really >>> digested >>> the doctrine of the Unity of Being (wahdat al-wujud) in all its >>> various implications, especially as it was dealt and modified by >>> Shi'ites such as Mulla Sadra and finally expanded as into something >>> else by Shaykh Ahmad al-Ahsai. However, note that the doctrine of >>> the >>> Unity of Being does not entail that everything is monochromatically >>> divine. Grades and hierarchies inform the construct of all levels of >>> the Kosmos. The Neoplatonism, the Hermetic tradition and Kabbalah >>> are >>> places to look into such questions with a bit more rigor. >> >>> In any case, without getting into a long winded theological >>> discussion, I invite you to look into the writings of Rene Guenon, >>> especially his *The Multiple States of Being*: >>> http://www.fonsvitae.com/rene-guenon-multiple.html >> >>> I think for your type of probing metaphysical inquiry, Guenon's pure >>> metaphysical writings can serve as a valuable springboard to >>> reconsideration of the more symbolic and philosophically rigorous >>> aspects of the great question amongst the Traditions themselves. How >>> Guenon unpacks the issue I think you will find quite interesting. >>> His >>> *Symbolism of the Cross*, *Metaphysical Principles of Infinitesimal >>> Calculas*, *The Reign of Quantity and the Sign of the Times* would >>> also interest you considerably. Look at *Multiple States of Being* >>> and >>> you will never need the garbled and befuddled pseudo-arguments of >>> Abbas Effendi ever again. >> >>> W >> >> Thank you. >> >> Is multiple states of being similar to the ideas of Eckhart Tolle? > > You are a serious man, with a serious mind. Eckhart Tolle is > popularized, sensationalized platitudinal drivel. Guenon died in 1951, > long before Tolle was 'discovered'. Guenon's MULTIPLE STATES OF BEING > is a work of pure traditional Metaphysics dealing with serious > subjects. About Shaykh Abd'ul-Wahid Yahya Rene Guenon: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Gu%C3%A9non > >> He >> suggests that we are neither mind nor thought, heart nor emotion, >> body nor >> sensation; but a sum of these and more. > > This is the Traditional Hindu teaching regarding the nature of the > 'Atman', the traditional Platonic-Hermetic teachings of the World > Soul, and the traditional Quranic Islamic teaching regarding the One > Soul. > > W > > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Fri Sep 26 00:37:30 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 231104B09F7 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2008 00:37:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1aipvZlWohvO for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2008 00:37:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 14A564B0A0F; Fri, 26 Sep 2008 00:37:29 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 23:37:56 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 00:26:42 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Reply-To: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" From: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai References: Subject: Re: God's Side? Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 14:27:24 +1000 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kj4ue-0004qq-7r X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-OMk8AAQpGJrGvcFRO1WZCYLCy3xuOPmvFVzbA4sk4fCHAdCqcuC/FU+ARc8U0+x3LPDxjk1UQtaD+aH!hoTwmcAnYSKZrxGuMBs11x7fT3IIzSNTT8JIptJmGY9AoR/eCKBe5+Db4lqcQeOAS0y4qD807A== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118197 alt.religion.bahai:21031 soc.religion.bahai:25325 wrote in message news:HvOdnXMXPugzA0fVnZ2dnUVZ_srinZ2d@giganews.com... >>I look at it like this. Someone comes to your village and forewarns you th at >>your irrigation techniques will eventually turn your land to waste and >>advises you on how to change. When you ask this person to substantiate >>his claim, he says "trust me", or "because God said so"; and if you >Not so, While I respect that may be your experience, it is not my experience. >Baha'is believe proof is in the word. The truths are self- >evident. For example, at a time when the status of women in Iran was >little better than cattle, Baha'u'llah proclaims the equality of men >and women. And then goes on to use the masculine gender in "Men of the House of Justice" to, according to his "infallible" successor's experience, explicitly exclude women from service on the House of Justice. Now, the argument I elaborate at: http://fieldcraft.biz/topics/bahai/06-equal-rights-of-men-and-women/index.shtml to the effect that the lack of opportunity to serve is outweighed by the opportunity to choose who serves; neglects both the indelibility of self-serving human nature, and the fact that men are simply not qualified to make moral judgements about things beyond the male experience (Eg. pregnancy & abortion). Not only is Baha'u'llah's declaration of sexual equality rendered hollow by the interpretations of his putatively "infallible" successors, but its proof (for nothing is self-explanatory) in the distinctions of male and female experience show that the outcome of that interpretation is incorrect because the basis of religious decision-making is at it's core experiential as much as it is scriptural. >>don't take his word for it, declares you an enemy of God - if not >>explicitly, then implicitly in the wording of address such as to make a sh ow >>of great distrust in you, when it is you asking the questions and he who c laims to >>have all the answers. >Really, this is why Baha'u'llah adovcated the independent >investigation of truth. That we should do away with our ministers and >investigate God's revelation for ourselves? So how does one explain Section 1 of the Kitab-i-Aqdas in light of the *fact* of experiential uniqueness as the basis for human belief? How is it that people who simply don't agree with Baha'u'llah on certain issues come to be called "enemies of the Faith" instead of simply being understood as human beings whose individual experience dictates the indelible uniqueness of their beliefs? >The first teaching of Bahá'u'lláh is the investigation of reality. Man >must seek the reality himself, forsaking imitations and adherence to >mere hereditary forms. >(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 238) And I have to agree with this, but Aqdas Section 1 pressumes that the word of Baha'u'llah cannot be contradicted by human experience by replacing good with the intellectual exercise of recognising something, which by many acounts is based on a number of untenable assumptions. The fact that a "Manifestation of God" is by Baha'i definition possessed of "essential infallibility" disproves the existence of any "Manifestation of God", because essential infallibility simply has neither historical nor contemporary examples; and this makes it about as tenable as the "little folk" of Celtic tradition or the aether-mass creation mechanism invoked to drive the expanding earth model of Yarkovsky (1888). Baha'u'llah, by neglecting to address broad contingencies by which his laws may in some cases cause harm, shows me a lack of qualification much less "essential infallibility", and the very idea that a system of laws may remain unchanged for a thousand years speaks against the advancement of civilisation, also claimed to be an objective of Baha'u'llah's mission, because in serving a consistent objective laws must necessarily adapt to culture and culture evolves with technology, not philosophy or religion. The Lesser Peace was brought about by the ability of the nuclear bomb, a product of scientific not religious endeavour, to bring the consequences of war home to those who lead their armies from behind. The benefits of contraceptives render certain marriage laws obsolete, and the incredible modern divorce rates show that marriage in its current form may suit a minority (possibly confined by temperament) but is otherwise an entirely redundant waste of resources and often a waste of good will in the context of modern culture that acknowledges the equality of numerous human temperament demographics. This exemplifies the tip of the iceberg by way of why the outcome of my investigation does not support Baha'u'llah's claims, or those of any other "Friend of God", "Prophet of God", "Son of God", "Apostle of God", or "Manifestation of God", etc. It all comes back to "essential infallibility" and the fact that as human beings we can *all*, without exception, be quoted in the book of error. Yarkovsky, I. O., 1888, "Hypothese cinetique de la Gravitation universelle et connexion avec la formation des elements chimiques", Moskau ____________________________________________________________ Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the number@timothycasey.info to email. Philosophical Essays: http://timothycasey.info Speed Reading: http://speed-reading-comprehension.com Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security. Science & Geology: http://geologist-1011.com; http://geologist-1011.net Technical & Web Design: http://web-design-1011.com -- GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer today! From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Fri Sep 26 00:37:36 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 344634B0A19 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2008 00:37:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4jvHPp2zDfir for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2008 00:37:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 17F024B0A26; Fri, 26 Sep 2008 00:37:34 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 23:38:04 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 00:26:28 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Reply-To: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" From: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai References: Subject: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 14:27:00 +1000 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kj4uM-0004py-0f X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-Ldu9aZq+p6tLzLBKWkpkxhSGVcBn+/LE6FfnTlkwfpAilZuby5dAb8IeBEPPsph5M1I1EuRkHcNqXEd!JECcQWdJDKPHgnhwDJAnHjTvxgBn1S0XxjKbUNAg30XN5LuGqKat/8mKRjLcVphfXS/qzWRbOw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25326 talk.religion.bahai:118198 alt.religion.bahai:21032 wrote in message news:HvOdnXMXPugzA0fVnZ2dnUVZ_srinZ2d@giganews.com... [SNIP] >> For example, there is not a single proscription of alcohol in >>any culture or religion that specifically prescribes replacements for >>digestives such as amaros or alternative anti-oxidant sources such as red >>wine. This by itself makes the proscription unethical in the first place >>because not only is the proscription negligent and causes measurable harm, >>but the proscription also creates a restriction which is not paid for by i ts >>replacement with a less harmful liberty that wasn't previously available. >>This is especially true in specific types of alcohol consumption (eg. high ly >>moderate & especially with regard to use in cooking) that does nothing to >>restrict the consumer's ability to think - especially where as much has be en >>found to be beneficial to both body and mind (eg. antioxidants improve >>circulation which in turn improves intellect in addition to physical >>fitness). >If through all of that you are advocating that alcohol consumption is >somehow beneficial here are a few points to consider: > 1. The Baha'i Faith leaves provisions by which a physician may >prescribe daily red wine or anything else should it be deemed to >benefit our health. Either the translation is wrong or the Baha'u'llah is making an impossibly tall order here. If you have a serious problem, your doctor or GP will refer you to a specialist. If after many years of going in circles with monthly specialist consultation, you still get nowhere, one of them may refer you to a physician. A Physician is like a specialist but with multiple specialties; an advantage when dealing with diseases that are routinely misdiagnosed and referred to the wrong specialist. Most people never meet a physician in their entire lifetime as they often wind up in teaching, and extremely rare diseases usually kill you long before they are likely to be diagnosed. > But before you go getting soused up consider that >a less publicized study implicates grape juice as being equally >healthy without the side effect of damaging the liver. >From the Wikki on grapes: >"Like wine, grape juice also contains antioxidants such as flavonoids, >providing some health benefits. These anti-oxidants have been >implicated in many epidemiological studies with a reduction in >coronary heart disease and cancer. .....Typically, purple grape juice >is made from concord grapes. >A recent study published in the Journal of Agriculture and Food >Chemistry found that purple grape juice was among the highest in >antioxidants among the juices tested. Also high in antioxidant >compounds were cloudy apple juice, cranberry juice, and pomegranate >juice. [1] All fruit juices analysed in this study were purchased from >a local supermarket. The choice of juices was based on the top selling >flavours in the 2005 UK sales data. The study was funded by the USA >National Grape Co-op of which Welch's is a member." Grapes and grape juice can upset the stomach in cases whereas a red wine in moderation with the food does not; and a little heartburn is a very serious thing. GPs in Australia prescribe heavily subsidised medication because of a link between oesophagitis and GI cancer (which is the number 1 cancer in Australia) > 2. In regards to alcohol in general, 15,000+ people die per year in >the US in alcohol related accidents. What about alcohol related, >rape, child abuse, and molestation, alcohol induced liver cirrhosis. >Do you have a number? Looking at the big picture if we were to tally >up the benefit to cost ratio of alcohol we'd find it to be up there >with the plagues of the past. Yeah, the plague may indeed cure you of >your headache. > taken from: http://www.alcoholalert.com/drunk-driving-statistics-2005.html These statistics only apply to excessive alcohol consumption or alcohol abuse. They apply in no way to the moderate and thoughtful consumption that I endorse. On this point I may add that your microwave oven doesn't come with a fixed notice for you not to use it to dry your baby because presumably, most normal people can figure this out for themselves. Most normal people don't drink excessively because we all know just how harmful ignoring the unwritten instructions can be. Furthermore, blaming the substance and not the choice to abuse it is part of the problem. I can choose to have half a glass of red wine with my meal if circumstances suit, and there is no harm is done. If, however, I go on a red grape diet, eating only red grapes, you can imagine the potential harm can you not? Does this mean we should ban red grapes? Everything in excess is a poison - even water has, in rare circumstances, been ingested to excess. Hitler had 6 million Jews, 5 million people from other unprotected minorities, and a further 60 million people killed on the Eastern Front. Then we have the ethnic cleansing associated with the Androgenisation of God (including the massacre of entire civilisations across the Middle East, throughout Anatolia, and even throughout Greece and all the way to Minoa), the Catholic Inquisition & the Protestant Witch-hunts. More recent depravity comes from the likes of Henry VIII, Cromwell, Mao, Stalin, Mussolini, Pol Pot, Hussein, Milosevic, and then we have the various African atrocities of recent decades. By the same logic, we would ban all forms of leadership and administration because these things have killed more people than anything else, and eventually if we ban food consumption because of the risk of death by morbid obesity, we all finally starve to death and only then will there be peace on earth for the very first time in 10,000 years. While we are at it, why don't we ban God? The call to "God's Side" has been a rallying cry for mass participation in every atrocity our "great leaders" have conspired to perpetrate through their minions. We don't ban God is for the same reason no-one should ban alcohol. It's a question of consumption or abuse which constitutes a choice on the part of the individual that is not dictated by the nature of the substance. >"Deaths from HIV/AIDS: 15,245 deaths in 2000 (NIAID); 14,802 deaths >reported in USA 1999 (NVSR Sep 2001) " What about malaria? The only reason AIDS gets more press is because it affects the rich and famous while malaria does not because the rich and famous can afford the vaccine when they travel. Yet some of the rich are rich only because the malaria vaccine is too expensive for the 2.7 million people killed by malaria every year (Bremen et. al. 2001). Which should we ban? Mosquitoes, malaria, or wealth? What about tobacco? In Australia, one in a thousand people die from tobacco caused illnesses - that was 19,000 every year in 1998. When we compare alcohol at 2831, motor vehicle accidents at 1731, illegal drug use at 863, and murders at 203 in 1998 (http://quitnow.info.au), we must ask how Baha'u'llah could err so grievously as to abrogate the Bab's ban of a substance that even when used properly and in moderation causes several times the mortality of alcohol abuse? Don't tell me! "Alcohol consumeth the mind"? Once again, moderate consumption of red wine does the opposite by improving circulation. The choice to overstep the bounds of moderation is a choice and is not dictated by any attribute of alcohol - so when someone says, alcohol "causeth man to commit acts of absurdity" that person denies the choice to overstep moderation in the first place, not to mention the fact that such "absurdity" had to be in the heart of the man in the first place! Alcoholism is not caused by alcohol. It is caused by the underlying psychological problem that drives the subject to want to "switch off". History has shown that at a societal level, banning alcohol only makes the problem worse because while the pain is exacerbated, the underlying cause is left utterly without treatment. May I add that this fits some definitions of sadism. Such was the infamous prohibition era in America; and if you are wondering how the opium dens became so popular in Persia, look to Mohammed's "brilliant" prohibition idea that offered *nothing* at all to address the real social and psychological problems that caused people to want to switch Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security. Science & Geology: http://geologist-1011.com; http://geologist-1011.net Technical & Web Design: http://web-design-1011.com -- GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer today! From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Fri Sep 26 01:22:50 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D0DB4B08DF for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2008 01:22:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nztSAazX+4v9 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2008 01:22:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id D78744B0A1A; Fri, 26 Sep 2008 01:22:49 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 00:23:03 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 01:20:19 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-2.4.2 (20060627) (Debian) at motzarella.org From: Larry Gusaas Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 23:20:02 -0600 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: X-Auth-Sender: U2FsdGVkX1+zGBGMOyaNsMtJEjdKJ4VjdgzitfVeVMc= Cancel-Lock: sha1:vcryzC80JufQ21vg9ZOhs8Dpc3M= User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Macintosh/20080707) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kj5kU-0000Er-PV X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-nfZ2ztNCe6c4OMDTJcJjFTeKOFLbdfqqsDH9g5aQLglXNclKS57Y4TNexu5lPXHyzMV8ohr1cKh7hVw!HE50reHgzZh1FmqAD/LewCULS3aj0xySyWN3YcG4cuz5mjT+OKyb2Ck7jbaVHp1iNzEUtMkc7w== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25327 Number Eleven - GPEMC!, 2008/09/25 10:27 PM: > wrote in message > news:HvOdnXMXPugzA0fVnZ2dnUVZ_srinZ2d@giganews.com... > >> 1. The Baha'i Faith leaves provisions by which a physician may >> prescribe daily red wine or anything else should it be deemed to >> benefit our health. >> > > Either the translation is wrong or the Baha'u'llah is making an impossibly > tall order here. If you have a serious problem, your doctor or GP will refer > you to a specialist. If after many years of going in circles with monthly > specialist consultation, you still get nowhere, one of them may refer you to > a physician. A Physician is like a specialist but with multiple specialties; > an advantage when dealing with diseases that are routinely misdiagnosed and > referred to the wrong specialist. Most people never meet a physician in > their entire lifetime as they often wind up in teaching, and extremely rare > diseases usually kill you long before they are likely to be diagnosed. > Huh? Maybe in your small part of the world. My GP is a Physician. If I want to look up his phone number in the Yellow pages and look under Doctors, there are no listings. It say see Physicians & Surgeons. From the Oxford dictionary: physician - a person qualified to practice medicine. doctor - 1 a qualified practitioner of medicine; a physician. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the translation. -- Larry I. Gusaas Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Fri Sep 26 17:18:28 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB64A4B08E4 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2008 17:18:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zjD-02YGWq8X for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2008 17:18:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 5B9524B091E; Fri, 26 Sep 2008 17:18:27 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 16:18:26 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 03:35:31 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=Ed9qvJ3y9HLHmx5VQBdvVdHQhpLecrpMui4Rk+DjRVIsJGtNltqv0Qqhf2MwpupESIrQYxi6Zig2SSscebuZYl3obE/nj/J3fmEqD7H+/OYEnX3Nqgn0xJgXtbJhfDvCcD4pRTSm+C/hBj2ohSx8PrOtNL7lSTf/gnXEmdFI93o= ; X-YMail-OSG: oX.l5tQVM1nNR8O29f5.HWx9AEe2uHSHBtvZUHkormEKUq9rBi5Il7.Fnwx8nsvF.6iH2REtXLqfGgYYB6Xz40zmbuz.utFvm6FBRhbofurty5mfXLZYhZfSKIz5Rub.PCzQ0o_RJq1lIyJNURz0mx0Wz_pRctJAIFyy8gNNgAP3cWvhOg-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: "Richard H. Gravelly" References: Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 00:34:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kj7r8-0001ha-5Q X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-wWFXpIxkhI4lh0f3bASLT7ID3A5dbixZ4NIKDBlG+s4rUtI9Syisu03IPP1v99LnPgJrKujbeRyx4l4!Y4azjfJtX2gV15LmYKWYDySY5Aoz/0kwmsMgfy/Rln5HsRquyD2tTTIwI7yOPrh0CjFxLLOcYQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25328 In the U.S. of A, Physician=Medical Doctor (MD) or Osteopath (DO). IN the U. K. and its Commonwealth nations; a doctor is a GP and a physician is a specialist. Also, in the U.S. of A a "doctor" could be anyone from an optometrist, dentist, chiropractor or podiatrist to a Ph.D. Such cannot refer to themselves as physicians. Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Gusaas" Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 10:20 PM Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? > Number Eleven - GPEMC!, 2008/09/25 10:27 PM: > > wrote in message > > news:HvOdnXMXPugzA0fVnZ2dnUVZ_srinZ2d@giganews.com... > > > > >> 1. The Baha'i Faith leaves provisions by which a physician may > >> prescribe daily red wine or anything else should it be deemed to > >> benefit our health. > >> > > > > Either the translation is wrong or the Baha'u'llah is making an impossibly > > tall order here. If you have a serious problem, your doctor or GP will refer > > you to a specialist. If after many years of going in circles with monthly > > specialist consultation, you still get nowhere, one of them may refer you to > > a physician. A Physician is like a specialist but with multiple specialties; > > an advantage when dealing with diseases that are routinely misdiagnosed and > > referred to the wrong specialist. Most people never meet a physician in > > their entire lifetime as they often wind up in teaching, and extremely rare > > diseases usually kill you long before they are likely to be diagnosed. > > > Huh? Maybe in your small part of the world. My GP is a Physician. If I > want to look up his phone number in the Yellow pages and look under > Doctors, there are no listings. It say see Physicians & Surgeons. > > From the Oxford dictionary: > > physician - a person qualified to practice medicine. > doctor - 1 a qualified practitioner of medicine; a physician. > > There is absolutely nothing wrong with the translation. > > -- > > Larry I. Gusaas > Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada > Website: http://larry-gusaas.com > "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Fri Sep 26 17:18:46 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C841B4B0B39 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2008 17:18:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pJP8dB7TA2eM for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2008 17:18:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id E5A5B4B0A06; Fri, 26 Sep 2008 17:18:45 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 16:19:00 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 12:15:14 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: mikeran37@yahoo.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 09:15:00 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com; posting-host=70.229.26.45; posting-account=M_40MwoAAACezPB6m4wCKE4LAJjMzCeb User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.1.3) Gecko/20070323 PCLinuxOS/2.0.0.3-3pclos2007 (2007) Firefox/2.0.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KjFyJ-0007YA-M4 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=0.379, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 2.30, SARE_MONEYTERMS 0.68) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-i6PSVjvXU94dqgWCxMl/MMd7BOpYjZ2TiJsQUDGgkD5IegUd+EFh5wC/YxJXyKAvHutOTQeWxvWE+1A!Tf5SDkOF4MAeK2EFadxsRFNnwY6yr9GumrO6rNZ/E4jutW+NlsbB1K/Im9ei9Ex3oSDtjdPAtw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25329 talk.religion.bahai:118208 alt.religion.bahai:21033 >Either the translation is wrong or the Baha'u'llah is making an impossibly >tall order here. If you have a serious problem, your doctor or GP will refer >you to a specialist. If after many years of going in circles with monthly >specialist consultation, you still get nowhere, one of them may refer you to >a physician. A Physician is like a specialist but with multiple specialties; >an advantage when dealing with diseases that are routinely misdiagnosed and The first premise of your argument that the translation is wrong only reveals either a lack of knowledge of the Baha'i Faith, persian or lack of exposure to the Guardians translations. I can't say which, but only that you need to read for yourself. Because there can be little argument about the provision in the Baha'i Faith that physicians may prescribe most anything to benefit our health. "the use of alcohol is permitted if it is prescribed by a physician for treatment purposes" (Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 350) >referred to the wrong specialist. Most people never meet a physician in >their entire lifetime as they often wind up in teaching, and extremely rare >diseases usually kill you long before they are likely to be diagnosed. The second premise that some may never find physicians or have access to care leads me to two flaws in your position. First, in a society which lacks a physician (of which we do have examples) the average lifespan falls due to many other factors (in particular war related death, sanitation, and famine). These people die long before they can even consider the long term benefits that may be associated with anti-oxidants or any other healthy lifestyle choice other than moving to a more civilized country. Secondly, across the board people do not know in advance who does or who does not have the genetic predisposition to becoming an alcoholic. As cited below: "Unprecendented Study Maps Genes Linked to Alcoholism Could Provide Prevention and Treatment Tools By Buddy T, About.com Updated: September 7, 2006 About.com Health's Disease and Condition content is reviewed by Steven Gans, MD In a genetic study of unprecedented scope, researchers have used new genomic technology to identify human genes in people most at risk for developing alcoholism, which could revolutionize treatment and prevention options. Researchers at the Molecular Neurobiology Branch of the National Institute on Drug Abuse report that their comprehensive scan of the human genome is the first time the new technology has been used to comprehensively identify genes linked to substance abuse. Genetic Variations Many previous studies have linked specific genes to alcoholism, but the NIDA researchers identified clusters of genetic variations in 51 chromosomal regions that they believe play a role in alcohol addiction through cell-to-cell communication, control of protein synthesis, regulation of development, and cell-to-cell interactions." Your second proposition falls short because poor people who lack access to medical care will not be able to know if they are or are not going to be alcoholic. Genetic alcoholics can attain an almost instant addiction to alcohol as a very real drug that will lead to their loss of self control. You can't know if you are not one of these people until you try. And right now this applies to the more wealthy societies as well. >Grapes and grape juice can upset the stomach in cases whereas a red wine in >moderation with the food does not; and a little heartburn is a very serious Sounds like a personal issue to discuss with your physician. Because with my medical knowledge, I can say that if grape juice is upsetting your stomach you may have an H. pylori infection or even worse some type of cancer either way it needs to be checked. >thing. GPs in Australia prescribe heavily subsidized medication because of a >link between oesophagitis and GI cancer (which is the number 1 cancer in >Australia) >These statistics only apply to excessive alcohol consumption or alcohol >abuse. They apply in no way to the moderate and thoughtful consumption that Right and who knows who is going to be the alcoholic that goes driving this week? We are just at the beginning of recognizing that alcohol can have strong chemical drives that make it near irresitible to some. >I endorse. On this point I may add that your microwave oven doesn't come >with a fixed notice for you not to use it to dry your baby because But there isn't a group of people out there who when exposed to microwaves suddenly become irresistibly drawn to it with the need to cook their own head. >Furthermore, blaming the substance and not the choice to abuse it is part of >the problem. I can choose to have half a glass of red wine with my meal if You're presuming that we're all the same. That because you can handle your beer, somehow the other people who can't are weaker than you. You can't know this. And with genetics, the scientific evidence is against you here. >>"Deaths from HIV/AIDS: 15,245 deaths in 2000 (NIAID); 14,802 deaths >>reported in USA 1999 (NVSR Sep 2001) " >What about malaria? The only reason AIDS gets more press is because it >affects the rich and famous while malaria does not because the rich and "Sub-Saharan Africa is more heavily affected by HIV and AIDS than any other region of the world. An estimated 22 million people were living with HIV at the end of 2007 and approximately 1.9 million additional people were infected with HIV during that year. In just the past year, the AIDS epidemic in Africa has claimed the lives of an estimated 1.5 million people in this region. More than eleven million children have been orphaned by AIDS.1 The extent of the AIDS crisis is only now becoming clear in many African countries, as increasing numbers of people with HIV are becoming ill. In the absence of massively expanded prevention, treatment and care efforts, it is expected that the AIDS death toll in sub-Saharan Africa will continue to rise. This means that impact of the AIDS epidemic on these societies will be felt most strongly in the course of the next ten years and beyond. Its social and economic consequences are already widely felt, not only in the health sector but also in education, industry, agriculture, transport, human resources and the economy in general. " http://www.avert.org/aafrica.htm You were saying? You're proposing that AIDs only affects the rich and famous and not the 1.5 million africans who died last year? At this point I fail to see even the need to continue in the discussion. Your facts presented are so far askew that this engagement strikes me more as a waste of time. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Fri Sep 26 17:19:17 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F28A4B0B3A for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2008 17:19:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7Z1wmWmx7R7c for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2008 17:19:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 2FCB24B0B3C; Fri, 26 Sep 2008 17:19:17 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 16:19:56 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 12:17:50 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: mikeran37@yahoo.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: God's Side? Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 09:17:35 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com; posting-host=70.229.26.45; posting-account=M_40MwoAAACezPB6m4wCKE4LAJjMzCeb User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.1.3) Gecko/20070323 PCLinuxOS/2.0.0.3-3pclos2007 (2007) Firefox/2.0.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KjG0q-0007k8-RX X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-0.302, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 2.30) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-qlL6iWw2KM/EhGZ5SSidx+RlUKNXvfcDWUuUrg/gnt/0zM5Z8ya7qt5fZ6T6TQHld+UfusS4iDiCUPi!ULZPTVU9aH3UOMBtem/tKasddw+qP0yGokQCKUKV65p40Mihs3e6CIVtK18uoaqkTIETh3RWWw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25330 >what does "Sock-Puppet'allah" mean I don't know what the author of this title intended but I do know the connotation of the above title and am surprised that the moderators allowed it through. This comes from the paranoid theory that Baha'u'llah was a puppet contrived by the british to disrupt Iran's government and religion. Adding sock to the title just further belittles Baha'u'llah. As the author has demonstrated multiple attacks on the faith with out substantiation, I feel fairly confident in the assumption that this is the intended meaning. 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which has specially.

------------9517852D966759-- From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Fri Sep 26 19:15:22 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FDB64B0045 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2008 19:15:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3fqifs6+Cz1H for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2008 19:15:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 2CBBC4B0093; Fri, 26 Sep 2008 19:15:21 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 18:15:24 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 18:51:07 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: PaulHammond Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 15:50:48 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: d70g2000hsc.googlegroups.com; posting-host=81.109.65.74; posting-account=xYgNZAkAAAAX2Gy_ALiaitufV0ujYcJc User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KjM9P-0000Nv-2e X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-E5faTqq8N4V/H0FPOB/DAMoPgJoq5OX52ACeTagB5gKP+ZSiz8hPo5XzORZDMFUsd9EgqQHTkj75G7D!1/BWrwgNjI2b9vn5NblpGaLFU77UUaxzpvSp6pWSdJLPnFtg7TpLnaBpB6OU0HXsbNd1OKglxA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25331 talk.religion.bahai:118214 alt.religion.bahai:21037 On 26 Sep, 17:15, mikera...@yahoo.com wrote: > > >thing. GPs in Australia prescribe heavily subsidized medication because of a > >link between oesophagitis and GI cancer (which is the number 1 cancer in > >Australia) > >These statistics only apply to excessive alcohol consumption or alcohol > >abuse. They apply in no way to the moderate and thoughtful consumption t hat > > Right and who knows who is going to be the alcoholic that goes driving > this week? We are just at the beginning of recognizing that alcohol > can have strong chemical drives that make it near irresitible to > some. > > >I endorse. On this point I may add that your microwave oven doesn't come > >with a fixed notice for you not to use it to dry your baby because > > But there isn't a group of people out there who when exposed to > microwaves suddenly become irresistibly drawn to it with the need to > cook their own head. > > >Furthermore, blaming the substance and not the choice to abuse it is par t of > >the problem. I can choose to have half a glass of red wine with my meal if > > You're presuming that we're all the same. I think that's precisely NOT what Tim is doing! hasn't the spiritual side of this conversation been predicated on the idea that everybody's experience is DIFFERENT? > That because you can handle > your beer, somehow the other people who can't are weaker than you. You > can't know this. And with genetics, the scientific evidence is against > you here. > Yes - classic straw man arguments - argue against something the other person didn't say. Why are you personalising this into making Tim say "I'm stronger than others because I can take my wine"? What he actually said is that it's a mistake to blame a substance for something that's actually caused by addictive behaviour or personalities. I have a feeling Tim would have a lot of sympathy with what you are pointing out - that it's an interaction between an addictive personality and the fermented grape which causes problems with alcohol, not the substance alone. > >>"Deaths from HIV/AIDS: 15,245 deaths in 2000 (NIAID); 14,802 deaths > >>reported in USA 1999 (NVSR Sep 2001) " > >What about malaria? The only reason AIDS gets more press is because it > >affects the rich and famous while malaria does not because the rich and > > "Sub-Saharan Africa is more heavily affected by HIV and AIDS than any > other region of the world. An estimated 22 million people were living > with HIV at the end of 2007 and approximately 1.9 million additional > people were infected with HIV during that year. In just the past year, > the AIDS epidemic in Africa has claimed the lives of an estimated 1.5 > million people in this region. More than eleven million children have > been orphaned by AIDS.1 > > The extent of the AIDS crisis is only now becoming clear in many > African countries, as increasing numbers of people with HIV are > becoming ill. In the absence of massively expanded prevention, > treatment and care efforts, it is expected that the AIDS death toll in > sub-Saharan Africa will continue to rise. This means that impact of > the AIDS epidemic on these societies will be felt most strongly in the > course of the next ten years and beyond. Its social and economic > consequences are already widely felt, not only in the health sector > but also in education, industry, agriculture, transport, human > resources and the economy in general. " > > http://www.avert.org/aafrica.htm > > You were saying? You're proposing that AIDs only affects the rich and > famous and not the 1.5 million africans who died last year? =A0At this > point I fail to see even the need to continue in the discussion. Your > facts presented are so far askew that this engagement strikes me more > as a waste of time. Again, you are misrepresenting what has been said. > >What about malaria? The only reason AIDS gets more press is because it > >affects the rich and famous while malaria does not because the rich and Tim says AIDS does affect the rich. He hasn't said that AIDS doesn't affect the poor. He said that malaria does NOT affect the rich, which is a reason why the western press doesn't talk about it much. Obviously, AIDS affects the poor even more than it affects the rich - but as I see it Tim was trying to make you think about malaria, and why that is considered a less "sexy" disease than HIV. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Fri Sep 26 19:15:26 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D753D4B0093 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2008 19:15:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ePUXm5gv0X-H for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2008 19:15:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id B98B94B07AA; Fri, 26 Sep 2008 19:15:25 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 18:15:32 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 19:01:43 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 15:58:08 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KjMJf-0001OP-3P X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-VExDEyagoxU5CACHhrl7TgkSrwqhRQv8hX4E5zqBX/fGIbDS8+Q9s2yYRKTfuVyIGNI4HqBhZnbw/1Z!K62KGvfY4/JfGUP5kH/3vdkT8GW9akcYVm7HFZKfpdhJbeiw3rEjoIIQCKmbXJrz7MeiUK2p9g== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118215 alt.religion.bahai:21038 soc.religion.bahai:25332 Hi again, Tim. I am having great difficulty posting here, having tried to post this one several times as well as others. The issue of infallibility has been discussed around here several times in my years reading this forum. I suggest that if you want to seriously discuss the issue further we should start a new thread. But as a Baha'i I have an obligation to understand the usage of the word in relation to the institutions of the Faith and the Central Figures. I have reconciled it myself with an understanding of the purpose of God's revelation, that God works in broad strokes. In Her revelation She has provided a matrix of understanding, the elimination of prejudice, spiritual solution to economic problems, progressive revelation from God, independent investigation... All of Her revelation cannot be empirically verified, but the promise that should we adopt these principles and follow Her proscriptions we will become better people and attract Her confirmations. I believe this is a major covenant between God and humanity, a major connection that can only benefit humanity, and each of us personally. That is infallible. > --Kent > > "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" wrote in > message news:qcqdnaDNhOWVZ0XVnZ2dnUVZ_jidnZ2d@giganews.com... > > "compx2" wrote in message > > news:54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com... > > [SNIP] > > > > Hai Kent, > > > > Thank you. I believe I can imagine that heat. I've weathered a few storms > > of > > my own, and people aren't pretty when they are more interested in > > conformity > > than truthfulness. I think the whole issue of infallibility has some real > > problems. I regard the very idea of infallibility with deep suspicion > > because its function is to avoid accountability and more importantly > > infallibility is a means by which such fraudulent practices as the > > censorship of evidence may be justified. It is a fact that credibility of > > authorship does not guarantee accuracy. I can give many examples of > > howlers > > published by eminent doctors and professors. They are human, but as Christ > > pointed out (in very different words), problems of merchantability are > > bound > > to emerge when one exaggerates one's reliability; especially when God or > > Goddess gets dragged into it. Once again, author credibility, like its > > opposite number the ad hominem attack, is an intellectual sleight of hand > > designed to draw attention away from the evidence (or lack thereof). This > > intellectual sleight of hand makes claims to infallibility, however well > > justified, highly deceptive in nature. For this reason I now blindly > > reject > > all infallibility and argument by infallibility as an attempt to evade > > discussion of evidence. > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the number@timothycasey.info to email. > > Philosophical Essays: http://timothycasey.info > > Speed Reading: http://speed-reading-comprehension.com > > Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security. > > Science & Geology: http://geologist-1011.com; http://geologist-1011.net > > Technical & Web Design: http://web-design-1011.com > > -- > > GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC > > The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. > > If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM > > Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer today! From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Fri Sep 26 19:15:32 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AF624B0093 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2008 19:15:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MvhR3lOibbmu for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2008 19:15:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 47DDC4B09D2; Fri, 26 Sep 2008 19:15:31 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 18:15:41 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 19:08:14 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Panentheism Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 16:08:00 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KjMPy-0001dy-Cw X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-dNNu48ZQuXedp3YTfBcuKpHtVbyNM+RiQimrFlxvs4sLeLPDm3Iy9mhpCeCI+bKUAC4Bg6xKQieZiR7!jFXdESDyT0bBUoTeTFxcpAPkzIdpZLDYjQWiMVtqF20HFLYXnDZH4/cIs7g9IbetrlHmiGIa5w== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25333 Hi Timothy, Having so much trouble posting I decided to re-write this answer to one of your posts as a new discussion. > I do not see the difference between a Creator and Creation that are one and > a Creation and Creator that are separate. I think the Baha'i position as 'Abdu'l-Baha put it in _Some Answered Questions_ might be term "panentheism" or that everything emanates from God. That is how I view the subject, anyway. Should you like to discuss this subject further we can go over the pertinent passages. > ...the other degenerates into > metaphysical pseudo-philosophy about what is "good for God". I certainly understand and appreciate your position. But how do you explain that God does have interests in the development of humanity? She did send Messengers, and continually provides blessings and confirmations on the side of justice, truth, mercy, all the virtues and all the good. She promises rewards for those who gird up the loins of endeavor to aid such causes and teach Her Cause. As I said before, my understanding of the subject is that God's interests are spiritual, the highest achievements of human endeavor, that the development of order and progress of good, virtue, accomplishment and knowledge in the contingent world is the domain or side God has supported and will support eternally. God has no need of such things, but rather supplies and aids those things. and they are the only important aspect of the worlds of God. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Fri Sep 26 22:24:38 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B0534B0BBE for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2008 22:24:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YTSfUkIedhpJ for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2008 22:24:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 7C6684B0BCB; Fri, 26 Sep 2008 22:24:37 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 21:25:12 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 21:20:27 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-2.4.2 (20060627) (Debian) at motzarella.org From: Larry Gusaas Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 19:20:07 -0600 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: X-Auth-Sender: U2FsdGVkX1+E3sYE92B9rWTBE23cX4OU5Dib9Kpj4cc= Cancel-Lock: sha1:FV/GQIejOohlc7WIKlsBdPDu4Cw= User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Macintosh/20080914) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KjOTu-0002hP-9v X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-KKtNrP4UOC3dnSSiSQ+f59H8KNbVxuQfcS232g3e+4o+ley3p8KVH+l60z7OBgbah9PaWDlJPh97TFi!1TCkViRsL2CtDASJOkBeUBjmX4/BHzgPDNiP5vzq6pweT1fSTB6yHBr0jktjbAZvzLHm66epyQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25334 Richard H. Gravelly, 2008/09/26 1:34 AM: > In the U.S. of A, Physician=Medical Doctor (MD) or Osteopath (DO). > > IN the U. K. and its Commonwealth nations; a doctor is a GP and a physician > is a specialist. > Canada is a Commonwealth nation. Here a Physician is a Medical Doctor, not a specialist. Be careful of your generalizations. -- Larry I. Gusaas Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Fri Sep 26 22:25:40 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5521B4B0BF0 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2008 22:25:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8mOl6DJp0max for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2008 22:24:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id D91254B0BEC; Fri, 26 Sep 2008 22:24:51 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 21:25:37 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 22:22:10 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=j3yYlAIt/x/cz2Zj+W+rTMrqzsKPItzFmYmTJnCnEOETW7Gnos0bChLr6tcNbgwKs39W5dI6Xqd49jQ39PfHS5XmEm/UFHh1v8UeuuvYx9BXS7iJsqEMpjCO9obVWU0JmNwZr1+B7LncOQkyKJ46Oqlg5TZ0rU2JwIAa/oo8zZI= ; X-YMail-OSG: m9Xk6ZkVM1n9cFrF1GdPJMhcLkcfCze0T_pIBeKS37AIbgWtgoE565ZUQXRUTGvla5UsZVxnLlTEYp1xLcW_6252Jo_D0SD5WhkacoMnRD3qxxCVJYzHbsZxBjkCc6dtz34- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 22:21:55 -0400 References: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KjPRf-000735-RI X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-oVo5iafnPblBdXtSOefRrG8J0jXKKFkmHZ/yY212BAFCDVZeUhzSz/QbFAQ8IOqQkDKiNObqBgO7WUR!+CNE230tpfIu5FP7aBH8/8SPlyUm6u9heY0zg566/xTRAbsdnDLDMe6Gi15JTqe46w4cMufyag== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25335 Curious. Why do you say "Her" when the Messengers of God always said "He"? doug On Sep 26, 2008, at 6:58 PM, compx2 wrote: > Hi again, Tim. > > I am having great difficulty posting here, having tried to post this > one several times as well as others. > > The issue of infallibility has been discussed around here several > times in my years reading this forum. I suggest that if you want to > seriously discuss the issue further we should start a new thread. > > But as a Baha'i I have an obligation to understand the usage of the > word in relation to the institutions of the Faith and the Central > Figures. I have reconciled it myself with an understanding of the > purpose of God's revelation, that God works in broad strokes. In Her > revelation She has provided a matrix of understanding, the elimination > of prejudice, spiritual solution to economic problems, progressive > revelation from God, independent investigation... All of Her > revelation cannot be empirically verified, but the promise that should > we adopt these principles and follow Her proscriptions we will become > better people and attract Her confirmations. > I believe this is a major covenant between God and humanity, a major > connection that can only benefit humanity, and each of us personally. > > That is infallible. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sat Sep 27 00:47:29 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F53B4B0C13 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2008 00:47:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RU3xBvhaigey for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2008 00:47:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 9D4C14B0C15; Sat, 27 Sep 2008 00:47:28 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 23:48:10 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 00:05:40 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: Romane Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 14:05:13 +1000 Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server References: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Windows/20080914) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KjR3p-0007bp-SF X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-EN1lyOxpK1UoCKr0JC7E/Am2qsRJ6pcDiGgQ2yxaHqmkb6Ci9TjXA1Cg2yRuYd6GXQnQ72ipo4zNEEG!qFQMPEVUyc+0bFLg+JF9/P4jfLaV95OUFDomgY0D2Dvvlh4VlLxFQw+AcEGCwUoew9vg/5YE7A== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25336 Good morning Good question. This is something that seems to suddenly have become "fashionable" of late - have seen this usage in a number of places, and interestingly it seems to be mostly males (at least, that I have seen; someone else's experience may differ) who do this. Psychological? Political correctness? Pacifism? Dunno, don't care, not interested enough to find out, and will refuse to enter into any further discussion over it. Just a personal opinion - in a genderless environment, use of the terms "he" and "she" would represent to me qualities, not sexual manifestation. If this is, by any obscure means, true, then changing the gender frame of reference would imply a different set of qualities, which would put an entirely different set of implications and connotations in place. No matter. I figure the Manifestations use "He" for a reason, and whatever that reason, it is good enough for me. Romane Douglas McAdam wrote: > Curious. Why do you say "Her" when the Messengers of God always said "He"? > > doug > > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sat Sep 27 00:48:20 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA2774B0C13 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2008 00:48:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5dSByb9c9XYc for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2008 00:48:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 2EC334B0C15; Sat, 27 Sep 2008 00:48:20 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 23:48:19 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 00:44:15 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: Romane Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: God's Side? Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 14:43:52 +1000 Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server References: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-f99fZiMmLZJKFjXY+f3d1Ij6pMcyhyBWHhGbwYpaJyI0C46dtZM2KspDI1c9uLpBE6hdlHLOAjdju8b!aoR9q5Fw3z0MAhTJn4HSW6vnEIU3536WqWx5pL46Hrvsihl9fabqBXt+4MyLZNXQQkLsg4I8YA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25337 Good morning Mike Wahid Azal is the name behind the name. He is readily researched via Google, a fact he openly admits at at least one of his blogs, where he refers the reader to Glaysher's website to obtain the "facts". He believes that (quote) "Bahaism is a very dangerous (ultra-rightwing) Stalinist cult with ties to some of the most nefarious (usually reactionary ultra-rightwing) political forces and actors of the past one-hundred odd years." Romane mikeran37@yahoo.com wrote: > > >> what does "Sock-Puppet'allah" mean > > I don't know what the author of this title intended but I do know > the connotation of the above title and am surprised that the > moderators allowed it through. > > This comes from the paranoid theory that Baha'u'llah was a puppet > contrived by the british to disrupt Iran's government and religion. > Adding sock to the title just further belittles Baha'u'llah. As the > author has demonstrated multiple attacks on the faith with out > substantiation, I feel fairly confident in the assumption that this is > the intended meaning. > > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sat Sep 27 12:27:01 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAC884B08D7 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2008 12:27:00 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VeRxMpv+N4ni for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2008 12:27:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 41F304B0913; Sat, 27 Sep 2008 12:27:00 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 11:27:35 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 11:19:02 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=a1sYTeZvLXNj4wN6U/2NtoZaTvz8HZ3WPy1L4vIewKSRLwzKR6lNzfXjuJJ7zFNBEkydFmUzVMFdBU4fAJXY/YRNmMwvDtyhIZgxqwO319fYyWl+Sz6+Nn/6t/MOVai6Pu8pOOs7DZRRG2aRXQljmWrAkJc4ZUwcBtTVBcseuhk= ; X-YMail-OSG: xAqyEowVM1nngla_wBbzcrL9lHaj01TUg2yziQ8y9bpPAZyl936WbOKKH46CW77d4431H3Oz0ukVQOaJMt7WEgsWEUAxk0nTb3HBWzmuWalo0MgVYHSpOE4vyhAV5pOWOTVgHw9eO.H2uQk2QPxmzROnAbAr X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: God's Side? Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 11:18:51 -0400 References: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-CiZrnYupbvD1PvPd+Zi/ChrLcgdD9dHwWZCXI6neTxNSAmN/6DLxo2xN3y26jZ3BMDUEyf/72SG0JYq!IQ2pltWtln2riI/Z7mjnqnCIjcq77IzxekJR2pmxfOLhEdLJPXk1aVsy6eP2i0XIuuR2yUhLpA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25338 Thanks Romane. I sort of suspected something like this because from my experience someone who is a believer in God and practicing a religion would be so imbued with faith in what they believe they would not be needing to run others down. This is the same practice of certain sales people who don't have a good product so they carry a hammer to nail others down. I am a Baha'i of 40 yrs and at first I drove people crazy by collaring everyone I met to teach them and then after learning more I realized teaching is not just some "activity" that we do once in a while it is our way of live, how we live, what we do etc. I lost my desire to "convert" everyone I meet verbally and in some cases with debate an argument much like what goes on with this forum and I realized the best I can do is live the life myself and be sensitive to others and find receptive souls by first making friends and spoon feeding if need be until the right moment comes along but I never ever put down anyone's beliefs in their particular religion because I "just know" my own belief, my own faith is the right one. I truly feel that those who are criticizing the Bahai Faith are not truly having faith, they in a way are playing God and judging others and the strange thing is most of them are obviously well educated academically. What threat is Baha'i if what they say about us is correct? There is nothing to fear but fear itself as they say. I don't hide behind pseudonyms I'm a believer in a full, frank, honest and open discussion as long as it is tempered with courtesy, tact and wisdom and I have no need to hide who I am or what I do. God bless you for offering this information. doug On Sep 27, 2008, at 12:43 AM, Romane wrote: > Good morning Mike > > Wahid Azal is the name behind the name. He is readily researched via > Google, a fact he openly admits at at least one of his blogs, where > he refers the reader to Glaysher's website to obtain the "facts". He > believes that (quote) "Bahaism is a very dangerous (ultra-rightwing) > Stalinist cult with ties to some of the most nefarious (usually > reactionary ultra-rightwing) political forces and actors of the past > one-hundred odd years." > > Romane From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sat Sep 27 12:27:10 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A6C04B08D7 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2008 12:27:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ifogwwBjLqRF for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2008 12:27:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 078134B09DD; Sat, 27 Sep 2008 12:27:09 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 11:27:52 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 11:28:35 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: mikeran37@yahoo.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 08:28:16 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com; posting-host=70.229.26.45; posting-account=M_40MwoAAACezPB6m4wCKE4LAJjMzCeb User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.1.3) Gecko/20070323 PCLinuxOS/2.0.0.3-3pclos2007 (2007) Firefox/2.0.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kjbif-00027U-ML X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-0.302, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 2.30) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-dxNEwqai+5LI7B7GLrczNh695Bk4jtCbE8Z+fe7VyWrSXPZXuv8q62TT4Mc/yBA5wlisAO68J8xOOZO!4KjU2J7dyO0ftrXci6fkcsROP3gdCJ2y9kUYp4t4h1vc0JSt0sWtgUrRgp5PRxQQcvtwZISwgA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25339 talk.religion.bahai:118225 alt.religion.bahai:21042 >Yes - classic straw man arguments - argue against something the other >person didn't say. Yet ironically you do exactly the same thing yourself with me. I never once stated that it wasn't a choice, just a much harder choice for some people. It is a fact that all addictions can be treated and broken. Of course the easiest way to avoid this addiction is to never drink at all. >> You were saying? You're proposing that AIDs only affects the rich and >> famous and not the 1.5 million africans who died last year? At this >> point I fail to see even the need to continue in the discussion. Your >> facts presented are so far askew that this engagement strikes me more >> as a waste of time. >Again, you are misrepresenting what has been said. >He said that malaria does NOT affect the rich, which is a reason why >the western press doesn't talk about it much. Am I misrepresenting? Let's assume your best case as you have presented it: That the major reason HIV receives this recognition is because the powerful rich can also contract it making it a 'sexy' disease. This is a well played out paranoid theory. The reason HIV carriers such weight with the CDC has little to do with the rich and everything to do with the fact that unlike malaria it follows a potentially exponential contagion route. The rate of spread for HIV if left unchecked will far exceed any other disease out there. It represents the legitimate fear of any intelligent medical practitioner to know that HIV can easily become a plague of pandemic proportions. As cited in the abstract below: The first postmodern pandemic: 25 years of HIV/ AIDS L. O. Kallings MD, Professor Emeritus, Clinical Microbiology, Former Secretary- General of the International AIDS Society Correspondence to Prof. Lars O. Kallings MD, PhD, Alev=E4gen 4, SE-182 67 Djursholm, Sweden. J Intern Med 2008; 263: 218=96243. ABSTRACT Abstract Science responded to the challenge of AIDS by rapidly identifying aetiology, describing pathogenesis and transmission routes, and developing diagnostic tests and treatment. However, this did not prevent the global spread of HIV, with 25 million fatal cases so far, another 33 million infected, and disastrous socioeconomic and demographic consequences. In spite of unprecedented political attention and financial resources, the response is falling further behind the growth of the epidemic. This is partly due to the unique characteristics of the virus, such as persistent infection, vertical transmission and a variability that allows it to escape immunity and antiretroviral drugs, and partly due to human characteristics such as a strong procreative instinct, drug use and ostracism. Denial, myths and complacency are major obstacles to rational measures. With no cure or vaccine in sight, scaling up prevention is of paramount importance. To meet the goal of universal access to prevention, treatment and care by 2010 would require a quadrupling of funding to an estimated US$42 billion by 2010, including adequate overall strengthening of healthcare systems, but in any case, the world will have to learn to live with HIV for the foreseeable future." Ignore the fact that HIV alone will kill 1.5 million in Africa this year. Based on its' method of transmission and in particular how it strips our immune system we can expect other plagues from opportunistic bacteria (ie. drug resistant TB) which are allowed to breed and develop resistance in the humans hosts of HIV. Even should this disease be contained at 1.5 million per year in Africa, it an expectation that a major plague affecting us all could emerge from this population of AIDS victims. How could a person be familiar with this subject and claim that the major reason we fund HIV R&D is because a few rich people have it? After 20+ years of R&D this disease still represents a greater risk to all of us than any other out there including malaria. Malaria doesn't carry the likelihood of jumping out of the jungle and killing off large segments of our population. This has nothing to do with sexy. >Obviously, AIDS affects the poor even more than it affects the rich - >but as I see it Tim was trying to make you think about malaria, and >why that is considered a less "sexy" disease than HIV. 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------------26E962449F0A8C-- From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sat Sep 27 19:54:09 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A05D4B078A for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2008 19:54:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id knVc0G1sQWvt for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2008 19:54:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 8543D4B07AD; Sat, 27 Sep 2008 19:54:08 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 18:54:15 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 17:22:48 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 14:20:43 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: 2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KjhFU-0005n8-9F X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: <4N6dnR98hJk6WkPVnZ2dnUVZ_hudnZ2d@giganews.com> X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-wwZM8Eg3CbD5Q6ETHg4QHtPZpaSub5XtTgO/uoT9FkRvLgsFLsw4y23r1vguOcURnH5xdaeHTGS7k8N!5VuyI6iysq0vnXzDDMFS9PaOD3fYK/3HbcZPcv3Au6470lIgv7PfCsxO6AaHTwrIRQpGk2L8Og== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25340 Hi Doug, I was following Tim's lead. It doesn't make a difference to me if God is Masculine of Feminine. Actually God is Both and Neither. Convention in English is the only reason we call God by the masculine pronoun. --Kent On Sep 26, 10:21=A0pm, Douglas McAdam wrote: > Curious. =A0Why do you say "Her" when the Messengers of God always said =A0 > "He"? > > doug > > On Sep 26, 2008, at 6:58 PM, compx2 wrote: > > > > > Hi again, Tim. > > > I am having great difficulty posting here, having tried to post this > > one several times as well as others. > > > The issue of infallibility has been discussed around here several > > times in my years reading this forum. =A0I suggest that if you want to > > seriously discuss the issue further we should start a new thread. > > > But as a Baha'i I have an obligation to understand the usage of the > > word in relation to the institutions of the Faith and the Central > > Figures. =A0I have reconciled it myself with an understanding of the > > purpose of God's revelation, that God works in broad strokes. =A0In Her > > revelation She has provided a matrix of understanding, the elimination > > of prejudice, spiritual solution to economic problems, progressive > > revelation from God, independent investigation... =A0All of Her > > revelation cannot be empirically verified, but the promise that should > > we adopt these principles and follow Her proscriptions we will become > > better people and attract Her confirmations. > > I believe this is a major covenant between God and humanity, a major > > connection that can only benefit humanity, and each of us personally. > > > That is infallible.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sat Sep 27 19:54:20 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30E4A4B07B6 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2008 19:54:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AIAwhHL-Qvgg for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2008 19:54:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 35D714B07E6; Sat, 27 Sep 2008 19:54:19 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 18:54:34 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 19:08:04 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: Romane Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: God's Side? Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 09:07:37 +1000 Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server References: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-s7HCoh1lR+vXPAfWAm8r3aRlqFjOp35Wn7tbFnCFrMtTmXqYHBcUf/xqgD1lCS5Ksr+QLdGJbmnbT40!x8mNeDsSCtvNV4lj08yE/mCBA9qhnWJRZeKnUfM9wq/iPpU8f+bRUMvmtE03cFOLidAZ0KCr2A== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25341 Good morning Two things here - one brief, one that is a little longer. So first... From my own look-see, Wahid has not made any attempt to hide his identity. The name under which he posts here is easily linked to the name Wahid, and vice-versa. His reasons for using this pseudonym here, and in many other places, indicate only a viewpoint and a reinforcement of his words. Over time, he has debated with many good minds, and his history goes back a long ways. In that regard, I give him my respect, even if I disagree with what he says or believes (both of which, in the end, remain between him and God). My second point returns this discussion to the topic of this thread - God's side. For various reasons, I had thought to not become involved in the discussion. Then I read your line "... more I realized teaching is not just some "activity" that we do once in a while it is our way of live, how we live, what we do etc." Quotes come to mind. A small smattering - every person can easily find many many (did I say many?) more : "It is through your deeds that ye can distinguish yourselves from others." (Gleanings, p. 305) "... inasmuch as deeds exert greater influence than words." (Gleanings, p. 57) "Indeed one's righteous deeds testify to the truth of one's words." (Tablets ..., p. 91) "The essence of faith is fewness of words and abundance of deeds; he whose words exceed his deeds, know verily his death is better than his life." (Tablets ..., p. 156) The Sacred Texts state repeatedly the value of words, but they also state unequivocally the absolute requirement for deeds. My personal understanding is that the words should support the deeds, not the other way round. God's side? I'm not interested in dry intellectual discussion that does not lead me forward to acts of service. To me, God's side is the side where people who, regardless of Faith or lack of faith, who, regardless of life's circumstances or health, work diligently for the betterment of the human species. People whose lives reflect that commitment, and whose "failures" serve to educate them in better means and methods of giving that genuine service. This is God's side. Baha'is in this respect are no different, with the addition that we have been granted the incredible bounty of recognising Baha'u'llah, and the responsibilities that accrue from that recognition. My employment gives me the opportunity to teach anywhere from around 100 to 250 people a day on the days I work (I am a suburban bus driver). The key word here is "opportunity" - there are times when, through tiredness, through inattention, or for whatever other reason or excuse, an opportunity slips me by. However, it would be absolutely inappropriate for me to mention the Faith or religion, being, so far as I am concerned, immoral and a breach of the trust of my employer. What is left? Only deeds. On just two occasions, two only, God provided the circumstances where a small Baha'i prayer book was able to be given as a gift. You know, I am having some of the most fun I have had in a long time, and getting paid for it !! (Romane laughs). My bus is a garden, and its day is passed filling and emptying with flowers of many colours, scents and shapes. Most flowers have smooth stems, but just a few have thorns - their beauty can still be appreciated, but one must handle them a little more carefully, and who knows but they may actually be a rare fruit with a spiny outer, that will ripen into a luscious and delectable offering. Try it some time :) I would leave with a quote : "In their homes, in their hours of relaxation and leisure, in the daily contact of business transactions, in the association of their children, whether in their study-classes, their playgrounds, and club-rooms, in short under all possible circumstances, however insignificant they appear, the community of the followers of Baha'u'llah should satisfy themselves that in the eyes of the world at large and in the sight of their vigilant Master they are the living witnesses of those truths which He fondly cherished and tirelessly championed to the very end of His days." (Shoghi Effendi, Baha'i Administration, p. 130) It is worth repeating - "... under all possible circumstances, however insignificant they appear, ..." My warmest greetings Romane Douglas McAdam wrote: > Thanks Romane. > I sort of suspected something like this because from my experience > someone who is a believer in God and practicing a religion would be so > imbued with faith in what they believe they would not be needing to run > others down. This is the same practice of certain sales people who > don't have a good product so they carry a hammer to nail others down. I > am a Baha'i of 40 yrs and at first I drove people crazy by collaring > everyone I met to teach them and then after learning more I realized > teaching is not just some "activity" that we do once in a while it is > our way of live, how we live, what we do etc. I lost my desire to > "convert" everyone I meet verbally and in some cases with debate an > argument much like what goes on with this forum and I realized the best > I can do is live the life myself and be sensitive to others and find > receptive souls by first making friends and spoon feeding if need be > until the right moment comes along but I never ever put down anyone's > beliefs in their particular religion because I "just know" my own > belief, my own faith is the right one. I truly feel that those who are > criticizing the Bahai Faith are not truly having faith, they in a way > are playing God and judging others and the strange thing is most of them > are obviously well educated academically. What threat is Baha'i if what > they say about us is correct? There is nothing to fear but fear itself > as they say. > I don't hide behind pseudonyms I'm a believer in a full, frank, honest > and open discussion as long as it is tempered with courtesy, tact and > wisdom and I have no need to hide who I am or what I do. > > God bless you for offering this information. > > doug From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sat Sep 27 19:54:31 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEC024B07E6 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2008 19:54:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zyzzcG-5l+0t for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2008 19:54:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id F23F24B07E9; Sat, 27 Sep 2008 19:54:29 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 18:54:52 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 19:45:02 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: God's Side? Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 16:44:44 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KjjT5-0007hu-MJ X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.284, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_MILLIONSOF 0.32) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-3iMGObpnyf55uAXfAjdfSoW+9YNPiMWRndN0tiyvnbkTuOVgrnwIkSOGFicwqR6OB1dHAHoj9iaS7Xg!7kNOn05/0iJ6jQrLiKKBxwcv3UWfEUKWLhnlJKMnOoVty8yVva6XGpBJQbHQsg5Puk27SwePag== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25342 Hi Doug, Perhaps I can help you see something. > ...a believer in God and practicing a religion would be so > imbued with faith in what they believe ... the best I can do is live the life myself and be sensitive to > others ... my own faith is the right one ... What threat > is Baha'i Or Christian? or Islam? or Buddhist? or Universalist? I guarantee you there are millions of members of other religions who share your exact sentiment, Doug. Exact. I have spent my life looking up to Baha'is, thinking Baha'i was the highest, the best, the brightest. But I was wrong. Only the highest is the highest, by whatever name it is called. Our Writings call us to virtue to deeds, to sacrifice. There is a world out there of virtue and deeds and sacrifice that is not named "Baha'i" and God has asked us "Have ye shut out yourselves from Me by reason of My Name?" (Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 9) > ...find receptive souls by first making friends and spoon > feeding if need be until the right moment comes along And pounce like a cat? Or explain how wrong they have been? If a soul is receptive the soul is looking to fill a hole. If someone is looking for advice to spiritualize their life the answer is prayer and sacrifice, not necessarily the Baha'i Faith. --Kent On Sep 27, 11:18=A0am, Douglas McAdam wrote: > Thanks Romane. > I sort of suspected something like this because from my experience =A0 > someone who is a believer in God and practicing a religion would be so =A0 > imbued with faith in what they believe they would not be needing to =A0 > run others down. =A0This is the same practice of certain sales people =A0 > who don't have a good product so they carry a hammer to nail others =A0 > down. =A0I am a Baha'i of 40 yrs and at first I drove people crazy by =A0 > collaring everyone I met to teach them and then after learning more I =A0 > realized teaching is not just some "activity" that we do once in a =A0 > while it is our way of live, how we live, what we do etc. =A0I lost my =A0 > desire to "convert" everyone I meet =A0verbally and in some cases with =A0 > debate an argument much like what goes on with this forum and I =A0 > realized the best I can do is live the life myself and be sensitive to =A0 > others and find receptive souls by first making friends and spoon =A0 > feeding if need be until the right moment comes along but I never ever =A0 > put down anyone's beliefs in their particular religion because I "just =A0 > know" my own belief, my own faith is the right one. =A0I truly feel that =A0 > those who are criticizing the Bahai Faith are not truly having faith, =A0 > they in a way are playing God and judging others and the strange thing =A0 > is most of them are obviously well educated academically. =A0What threat =A0 > is Baha'i if what they say about us is correct? =A0There is nothing to =A0 > fear but fear itself as they say. > I don't hide behind pseudonyms I'm a believer in a full, frank, honest =A0 > and open discussion as long as it is tempered with courtesy, tact and =A0 > wisdom and I have no need to hide who I am or what I do. > > God bless you for offering this information. > > doug > On Sep 27, 2008, at 12:43 AM, Romane wrote: > > > > > Good morning Mike > > > Wahid Azal is the name behind the name. He is readily researched via =A0 > > Google, a fact he openly admits at at least one of his blogs, where =A0 > > he refers the reader to Glaysher's website to obtain the "facts". He =A0 > > believes that (quote) "Bahaism is a very dangerous (ultra-rightwing) =A0 > > Stalinist cult with ties to some of the most nefarious (usually =A0 > > reactionary ultra-rightwing) political forces and actors of the past =A0 > > one-hundred odd years." > > > Romane- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sat Sep 27 20:06:40 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D35F4B070D for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2008 20:06:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6Svrumm7+q0o for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2008 20:06:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 7799D4B07E9; Sat, 27 Sep 2008 20:06:39 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 19:06:53 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 20:01:42 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=h8Od3G2nncley8Li221HVyx92iFrAA53RIOKZfNVluLXariHFpUCiezfPHlYLxL5bXllWOyCfPn9RQlSsXsDyP7ryzzumbYw+vpFzfC/Y/AG8lu0exd1ibEjEfdtk6+9HnU+GjU+/4fXNzU6KOFaOYj+NkP2gDfJatsyK5YJEbk= ; X-YMail-OSG: qgkGGacVM1nc98BjKGz3Gk_89xptm7yMcUrpXlCmFOTZaRnr0sjArPhsAN1GvnfpgPdQl6DTIeTwjH2K1Q0lPJVQwx1FKR04kwACpvsmzox_0S9FJvI7V6zshZMnp80Kw2s- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: <4N6dnR98hJk6WkPVnZ2dnUVZ_hudnZ2d@giganews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 20:01:28 -0400 References: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> <4N6dnR98hJk6WkPVnZ2dnUVZ_hudnZ2d@giganews.com> X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KjjjI-0000il-1k X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: <6N-dnaWo7JoDV0PVnZ2dnUVZ_j6dnZ2d@giganews.com> X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-aJE1nOlhp8loJdH0vJmN5eM5LWXqiT8vHpFj1U/P8lQYilcXbUKptgm/GEySjqZi9nE+EP08AIb3Lsq!HqdX9lDBuO7E4DhS+izGwOrGCnZjdaCovIMCoBjuo8ODmANVZ02SsjsFFEM6z/SdXkk8GSjsjw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 X-Original-Bytes: 3227 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25343 I don't believe it is convention. Baha'u'llah is God's Manifestation and He used the term "He" and since He was only revealing what God willed then I believe we should use the term "He" and not "she" but in reality God is not limited to either term I would agree with you on that. doug On Sep 27, 2008, at 5:20 PM, compx2 wrote: > Hi Doug, > > I was following Tim's lead. It doesn't make a difference to me if God > is Masculine of Feminine. Actually God is Both and Neither. > > Convention in English is the only reason we call God by the masculine > pronoun. > > --Kent From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sat Sep 27 20:06:58 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFAC64B07E9 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2008 20:06:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sgAyUFxfv4bA for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2008 20:06:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 8BA714B07F0; Sat, 27 Sep 2008 20:06:57 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 19:07:25 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 20:04:03 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=rVauYV35OQ7FXblRW/OtB/OwpuQHJ2dHTttbj+AhYHUwpJ/O7GOQ2ycpY2ucTfjBrF53OI3JYHHEEwZRveiMOwl+uI1akr46yXLeB3ElmwxYf0M2Oim9jV4/+870bHs0MVZezyFvmZs0+JPriwkjIUalsJzTf36kaoC/Tre7CJE= ; X-YMail-OSG: JB3CHwUVM1mKnhXI6TeQI0TvYtFCd7mE7BOFSkhpdqbEoWDQs0QuMFyp.l.jrOfQkX2uzUULOw9OcnRFaADCH2apkM.7O7rE4AhbqbU8WE3NXK.Q7aQmb5XuHOwhA6_KCWw- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: God's Side? Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 20:03:41 -0400 References: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-Pyv2OUsIAETtD67U315vVris9fhKBkDhnJomh8VtIm3WAs6IxPlWrCKg2pRuSXg0D9eLepUL+Pn99cW!ApHdY6ryjIHXViKHNDziB6nLm9cgvfFmJi+PLODj5ooH561ME8s+pZ1AGM46lWrsaZePjqD5vw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25344 Good for you my friend and God bless you. doug On Sep 27, 2008, at 7:07 PM, Romane wrote: > Good morning > > Two things here - one brief, one that is a little longer. > > So first... From my own look-see, Wahid has not made any attempt to > hide his identity. The name under which he posts here is easily > linked to the name Wahid, and vice-versa. His reasons for using this > pseudonym here, and in many other places, indicate only a viewpoint > and a reinforcement of his words. Over time, he has debated with > many good minds, and his history goes back a long ways. In that > regard, I give him my respect, even if I disagree with what he says > or believes (both of which, in the end, remain between him and God). > > My second point returns this discussion to the topic of this thread > - God's side. For various reasons, I had thought to not become > involved in the discussion. Then I read your line "... more I > realized teaching is not just some "activity" that we do once in a > while it is our way of live, how we live, what we do etc." > > Quotes come to mind. A small smattering - every person can easily > find many many (did I say many?) more : > > "It is through your deeds that ye can distinguish yourselves from > others." (Gleanings, p. 305) > "... inasmuch as deeds exert greater influence than > words." (Gleanings, p. 57) > "Indeed one's righteous deeds testify to the truth of one's > words." (Tablets ..., p. 91) > "The essence of faith is fewness of words and abundance of deeds; he > whose words exceed his deeds, know verily his death is better than > his life." (Tablets ..., p. 156) > > The Sacred Texts state repeatedly the value of words, but they also > state unequivocally the absolute requirement for deeds. My personal > understanding is that the words should support the deeds, not the > other way round. > > God's side? I'm not interested in dry intellectual discussion that > does not lead me forward to acts of service. To me, God's side is > the side where people who, regardless of Faith or lack of faith, > who, regardless of life's circumstances or health, work diligently > for the betterment of the human species. People whose lives reflect > that commitment, and whose "failures" serve to educate them in > better means and methods of giving that genuine service. This is > God's side. Baha'is in this respect are no different, with the > addition that we have been granted the incredible bounty of > recognising Baha'u'llah, and the responsibilities that accrue from > that recognition. > > My employment gives me the opportunity to teach anywhere from around > 100 to 250 people a day on the days I work (I am a suburban bus > driver). The key word here is "opportunity" - there are times when, > through tiredness, through inattention, or for whatever other reason > or excuse, an opportunity slips me by. However, it would be > absolutely inappropriate for me to mention the Faith or religion, > being, so far as I am concerned, immoral and a breach of the trust > of my employer. What is left? Only deeds. On just two occasions, two > only, God provided the circumstances where a small Baha'i prayer > book was able to be given as a gift. You know, I am having some of > the most fun I have had in a long time, and getting paid for it !! > (Romane laughs). My bus is a garden, and its day is passed filling > and emptying with flowers of many colours, scents and shapes. Most > flowers have smooth stems, but just a few have thorns - their beauty > can still be appreciated, but one must handle them a little more > carefully, and who knows but they may actually be a rare fruit with > a spiny outer, that will ripen into a luscious and delectable > offering. > > Try it some time :) > > I would leave with a quote : > > "In their homes, in their hours of relaxation and leisure, in the > daily contact of business transactions, in the association of their > children, whether in their study-classes, their playgrounds, and > club-rooms, in short under all possible circumstances, however > insignificant they appear, the community of the followers of > Baha'u'llah should satisfy themselves that in the eyes of the world > at large and in the sight of their vigilant Master they are the > living witnesses of those truths which He fondly cherished and > tirelessly championed to the very end of His days." (Shoghi Effendi, > Baha'i Administration, p. 130) > > It is worth repeating - "... under all possible circumstances, > however insignificant they appear, ..." > > My warmest greetings > > Romane > > > Douglas McAdam wrote: >> Thanks Romane. >> I sort of suspected something like this because from my experience >> someone who is a believer in God and practicing a religion would be >> so imbued with faith in what they believe they would not be needing >> to run others down. This is the same practice of certain sales >> people who don't have a good product so they carry a hammer to nail >> others down. I am a Baha'i of 40 yrs and at first I drove people >> crazy by collaring everyone I met to teach them and then after >> learning more I realized teaching is not just some "activity" that >> we do once in a while it is our way of live, how we live, what we >> do etc. I lost my desire to "convert" everyone I meet verbally >> and in some cases with debate an argument much like what goes on >> with this forum and I realized the best I can do is live the life >> myself and be sensitive to others and find receptive souls by first >> making friends and spoon feeding if need be until the right moment >> comes along but I never ever put down anyone's beliefs in their >> particular religion because I "just know" my own belief, my own >> faith is the right one. I truly feel that those who are >> criticizing the Bahai Faith are not truly having faith, they in a >> way are playing God and judging others and the strange thing is >> most of them are obviously well educated academically. What threat >> is Baha'i if what they say about us is correct? There is nothing >> to fear but fear itself as they say. >> I don't hide behind pseudonyms I'm a believer in a full, frank, >> honest and open discussion as long as it is tempered with courtesy, >> tact and wisdom and I have no need to hide who I am or what I do. >> God bless you for offering this information. >> doug > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Sep 28 15:39:41 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FADF4B05F4 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2008 15:39:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TG7eXS7JAyiw for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2008 15:39:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id D5AEB4B066C; Sun, 28 Sep 2008 15:39:40 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 14:40:10 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 20:15:19 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: Susan Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Please let us teach the Faith in Israel Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 17:15:07 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com; posting-host=76.107.89.62; posting-account=gtZNrgoAAADgBahMtWCWhGggkEcamn6r User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 6.0; SLCC1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; Media Center PC 5.0; .NET CLR 3.0.04506),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KjjwR-0001dl-Ix X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: <18OdnUufLJcGQELVnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@giganews.com> X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-Rulug5H8I/yvuz6AFdS8DPOZT/B2BLPQi6Vib/td3dbmF+9Vf1RoqxyepbohvqqJfwFUALFyfZyxCzS!fNGo96WtOFrXt756bmK3l5HZgj2jEJwOfEO08gh05LWOreO7lxSF/Yn3Irt8A1dQb/lQPXtXNw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25345 >> =A0 In general people do not convert to the Baha'i faith, they merely > fulfill their heritage by recognizing Baha'u'llah. It would be a > mistake to use the word conversion because this implies a turning away > from Judaism. Jewish Baha'is have not given up their culture or > heritage, just the opposite, they fullfill it. Dear Mike, That of course is true of whoever becomes a Baha'i from whatever religious background. I took a look at this blog and something seems quite off about it. My guess is that someone is trying to stir up trouble. I checked out the posting on the blog about the New York City meeting of Baha'is from Jewish background and no such meeting has been planned, let alone institutionally endorsed. All in all this blog seems very suspect to me and probably is the work of a detractor > =A0And I think it's a bad idea to throw prostelytizing into the already > religiously divided state of Israel. That is why the Guardian has > forbidden this. The prohibition against teaching the Faith in Palestine goes all the way back to Baha'u'llah, long before the European Jews began immigrating there. The Jewish community is the last community that needs > teaching or our efforts, as a group they already exemplify many of the > Baha'i principles. I think everyone needs the healing message of Baha'u'llah, but there are plenty of Jews outside of Israel, if we want to teach them. warmest, Susan From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Sep 28 15:39:56 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6BD94B066C for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2008 15:39:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hJkN+5Xgkwd9 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2008 15:39:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 3EC9B4B0716; Sun, 28 Sep 2008 15:39:56 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 14:40:37 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 20:29:05 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 17:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> <4N6dnR98hJk6WkPVnZ2dnUVZ_hudnZ2d@giganews.com> <6N-dnaWo7JoDV0PVnZ2dnUVZ_j6dnZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kjk9i-0002Qa-0d X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-iOAI8L8LtiZeF0ByP+VevQ2UrdLuCXQqHcYBEkUm8/qP8rfBKUcI6frt2wOMJsm7KfQK001q++7Sjp6!EdOb8sXc7lS167C/QXY+idElj5fbQDhTZSAkhV+UZ7OeYDAu7F+GVs9aYJpMDviSrWyDik1tWw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25346 Not that it makes a difference, since you agree God is not limited by gender, but the words Baha'u'llah used in Persian and Arabic were translated as "He" by Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice. I was not quoting, but rather using my own words, my own understanding. And you share, to some extent, that understanding, that God is not limited by gender. --Kent On Sep 27, 8:01=A0pm, Douglas McAdam wrote: > I don't believe it is convention. =A0Baha'u'llah =A0is God's Manifestatio n =A0 > and He used the term "He" and since He was only revealing what God =A0 > willed then I believe we should use the term "He" and not "she" but in =A0 > reality God is not limited to either term I would agree with you on =A0 > that. > > doug > On Sep 27, 2008, at 5:20 PM, compx2 wrote: > > > > > Hi Doug, > > > I was following Tim's lead. =A0It doesn't make a difference to me if Go d > > is Masculine of Feminine. =A0Actually God is Both and Neither. > > > Convention in English is the only reason we call God by the masculine > > pronoun. > > > --Kent- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Sep 28 15:40:55 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD1284B0716 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2008 15:40:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a5XVoxtutdRW for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2008 15:40:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 612F44B07E9; Sun, 28 Sep 2008 15:40:55 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 14:41:00 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 21:51:04 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-2.4.2 (20060627) (Debian) at motzarella.org From: Larry Gusaas Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 19:50:43 -0600 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider References: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> <4N6dnR98hJk6WkPVnZ2dnUVZ_hudnZ2d@giganews.com> <6N-dnaWo7JoDV0PVnZ2dnUVZ_j6dnZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <6N-dnaWo7JoDV0PVnZ2dnUVZ_j6dnZ2d@giganews.com> X-Auth-Sender: U2FsdGVkX1+30qBk6Y5EHyl3v4ulikXPfTu8tuvkwWE= Cancel-Lock: sha1:As3ihj+2sr/qVyZ6pw+GIxILAmU= User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Macintosh/20080914) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KjlR8-0007yW-Dg X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-BZBbdzj5ybL2fM5pshgXBdhnfmzI71vBqhdGeRGBsi21Und/Qu9GhfOvV9gHz9XVPrVBm6RAG0BRCcX!DSCksKaaplpXAdh3YCQhIyQkjm55pi6FXMY5E/w6jEyDNRACSqjtVhYIlumdIMA8alfLwNo8ww== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25347 Douglas McAdam, 2008/09/27 6:01 PM: > I don't believe it is convention. Baha'u'llah is God's Manifestation > and He used the term "He" and since He was only revealing what God > willed then I believe we should use the term "He" and not "she" but in > reality God is not limited to either term I would agree with you on that. Baha'u'llah did not use "He". "He" is an English word. Baha'u'llah did not write in English. -- Larry I. Gusaas Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Sep 28 17:49:58 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 761FD4B091F for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2008 17:49:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8-4IaC+70D3x for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2008 17:49:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xqhearb.arcor-ip.net (dslb-088-071-203-016.pools.arcor-ip.net [88.71.203.16]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8EE644B0907 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2008 17:49:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 21:51:55 +0000 From: "Grudem Vilar" X-Mailer: The Bat! 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------------D256972C678D04-- From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Sep 28 20:18:22 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C2D44B0A06 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2008 20:18:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r7+jo4Q-U4VH for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2008 20:18:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id ABC874B0A07; Sun, 28 Sep 2008 20:18:21 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 19:18:39 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 17:25:56 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=OR/XCU9BZZI2ajAUO8TTJ1UiKSxrSrbd2dGcvpa/FLdOHlm0gkqJUczM74f4StuqLylChgmql10QzMXczYYq0xv1WGjVaI9rZBuvg1fTdwlZeys72HVl3iZQiNE8lh65ewlnYHCY7jqFZScSrPhDCicYrB3Zqq1t830b6tXJihc= ; X-YMail-OSG: S5MrK1EVM1lrrdDyXXe022HhfZlljAI756eDuVcqHOAnL0oX20BWO09ffMPCnIJa9nJHs2zlnvwiKwgblx78WaFzQh0gpSzjPQUNh2fdleQLX5PgMy9CUBv_4I2ivE9qpA8- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: <18OdnUufLJcGQELVnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@giganews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Please let us teach the Faith in Israel Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 17:25:41 -0400 References: <18OdnUufLJcGQELVnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@giganews.com> X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kk3m3-0005Zg-8n X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: <6fadnaNcWdtCg33VnZ2dnUVZ_uCdnZ2d@giganews.com> X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-H7kZUAY1gaz+XCvlrygqiNMNiv60vAUCgZzfaVQZAtNu1TzLlSdfIHb6dB3yxE77rVwSr5eser/DxvL!ij0bNZTtc7lxnJ/0ADvFkqySR0F2dC7heudJ2DzPhM787oez1uHs8hQeveb7CqQRaW1Lvw/f5Q== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25348 I looked up the word in a search engine and found several hits such as God Passes By, DawnBreakers and Baha'i World where it was used to describe new believers to the Faith. I don't see any definition stating that conversion to a new religion means turning away from a previous religion. But I do believe that a person truly becomes fulfilled in the Baha'i Faith. I felt like I became a fulfilled Christian when I declared in the Baha'i Faith and yet I also gave up certain things that were not truly Christian but yet was what I was taught in Church. I see a difference between Christianity and what I call Churchianity. What about a sect who claim to be Christian but who practice things like KKK? If they became Baha'i wouldn't it be good they gave up their previous beliefs and ways of living? So I'm wondering what definition you are using Mike. regards, doug >>> In general people do not convert to the Baha'i faith, they merely >> fulfill their heritage by recognizing Baha'u'llah. It would be a >> mistake to use the word conversion because this implies a turning >> away >> from Judaism. Jewish Baha'is have not given up their culture or >> heritage, just the opposite, they fullfill it. > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Sep 28 20:18:33 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20BE14B0A07 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2008 20:18:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bdZ-DN7clShd for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2008 20:18:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 7C6C94B0A0C; Sun, 28 Sep 2008 20:18:32 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 19:18:59 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 17:28:11 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=1RV4Psl2+HXeGV5pmYDaiTyPqYK7skSpD8mxRnIxWstkuZy3mGkery6V6y6SvSmL8NVfZ/btWLfaRJDcrWcb5o5O8AG6k0zAwrSpDyJw/Fc/eq6gRFPoEQ4zxrc3nXekFWY30ejGKKiEZnQBpNr9f4bc6dSrolnk/k/zpEiET/g= ; X-YMail-OSG: e1Z.A5EVM1nai0NqtQE9B6p3Amu6T1VMs6846msR0JmcP_Tb8OxxEyNYmnQO7UFVR916mCd2b9DuzyDpWbDLfTHiR58mY9BdeHBinIC2X953yy9B4yLgK5QjSqBIdxzRbPG1PIO6ViextzkYai6mxjTfBo_bl75XL_4EI.vk5zt5Mto2qQ-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 17:27:56 -0400 References: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> <4N6dnR98hJk6WkPVnZ2dnUVZ_hudnZ2d@giganews.com> <6N-dnaWo7JoDV0PVnZ2dnUVZ_j6dnZ2d@giganews.com> X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kk3oD-0005fU-R7 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-sBC7ncUDEjpZIhKVCZnuqqpY3hgo6XmkTf8Gy7N0RMf2GcaKgDEhOuYqn5GyTsvV3hHEY2gsl3k4TsP!8iVhJfHymAOSE+4b9s3c+WA4etjoCZC5ad/MBb5szULqazd2BzJ7I6rz834bBcMHmNTVkwpXNQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25349 That is a good point Larry. So what was the original word and why is it translated as "He" in English by the Guardian? Indeed don't all religious Scriptures use the term "He", from whatever language was the original? regards, doug On Sep 27, 2008, at 9:50 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote: > Douglas McAdam, 2008/09/27 6:01 PM: >> I don't believe it is convention. Baha'u'llah is God's >> Manifestation and He used the term "He" and since He was only >> revealing what God willed then I believe we should use the term >> "He" and not "she" but in reality God is not limited to either term >> I would agree with you on that. > > Baha'u'llah did not use "He". "He" is an English word. Baha'u'llah > did not write in English. > > -- > > Larry I. Gusaas > Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada > Website: http://larry-gusaas.com > "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind > theirs." - Edgard Varese > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Sep 28 21:43:08 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C9634B0A10 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2008 21:43:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kVAI4tfnkJSK for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2008 21:43:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id B50BD4B0A14; Sun, 28 Sep 2008 21:43:07 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 20:43:32 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 20:42:16 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=QvrEWG1bObx7+Jm32e0x4XRoA1ZL+YbSSJUca209efA=; b=DEAwYI520RPkT3OLKuuJeDevN0h4kb1zG93y5WsZqLkpok/wFelxQSJV5ZvyJmPRO0 2C732rEh2KrY3ETWlVacE5IkcMbbMhx9KuVRr+uxq7ztClE1OAFG1sPZ+iCQyd0kPHpR 2YzOo00FRygv6HFc29sQKjXofMvdAsDXqYbo0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=qKLIn6fjkRc2Hf58zxAFxkGeQcMBAiIyy2Ocn+lVj/JthBhggg+tfAa0oeT4zK7vmH uG8VxG3DH3s7TdH+ftBlolzs91W0DMS7hqK1ZK4bscXI/pR1/M4+G7mAJq2ntNAnFJkr B1evxKYfGK5FSdJI8a1JwMWFIB8Sue22iJmP4= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 20:39:03 -0400 From: "Gilberto Simpson" Subject: Re: Please let us teach the Faith in Israel In-Reply-To: <18OdnUufLJcGQELVnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@giganews.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <18OdnUufLJcGQELVnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@giganews.com> X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kk6q4-0001Q4-J8 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: <-LOdnQiiB8BZr33VnZ2dnUVZ_o3inZ2d@giganews.com> X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-PIM3G7GlivcPSEIHNDTn6BUZ7Oz8JyzvRMYxH3UbCHWgwHJDKNrXR5YGpw9x8dddTOexP8uTbz1JGnj!kKgPX1UixtqQZTFNqr0rlh3JtTJV4sBSw4fz4E5LWSOmilXfQrLrhK7qOP3X3B7d9PjbwkVZ/Q== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25350 On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 8:15 PM, Susan wrote: > I took a look at this blog and something seems quite off about it. > My > guess is that someone is trying to stir up trouble. I checked out the > posting on the blog about the New York City meeting of Baha'is from > Jewish > background and no such meeting has been planned, let alone > institutionally > endorsed. Since the blog pretty obviously announces this meeting with a time and date, doesn't that mean the meeting has been "planned"? What would even be the purpose of announcing an "unplanned" meeting? From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Mon Sep 29 22:20:18 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 484E04B0044 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2008 22:20:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id poEVpnDlBUED for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2008 22:20:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 39B734B005A; Mon, 29 Sep 2008 22:20:17 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 21:20:29 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 19:32:24 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: PaulHammond Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 16:32:10 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com; posting-host=81.109.65.74; posting-account=xYgNZAkAAAAX2Gy_ALiaitufV0ujYcJc User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KkSE0-0003pb-AZ X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-N39bmbGMHlIBrGoUpDbdqwjX6cnaRUU8+vgR1IzH+J/aBWa93/pYG2kWz1Y1eVoaM7B58BQLCOzAJdW!1ldZuTHgTrOdXeJVYdyk2GlDbQRh3WIuSLG7v9JuIXwbjlpV2nKOxkuxTeNZ013uvQ+mKFcRPA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25351 talk.religion.bahai:118291 alt.religion.bahai:21058 On 27 Sep, 16:28, mikera...@yahoo.com wrote: > >Yes - classic straw man arguments - argue against something the other > >person didn't say. > > Yet ironically you do exactly the same thing yourself with me. I never > once stated that it wasn't a choice, just a much harder choice for > some people. It is a fact that all addictions can be treated and > broken. Of course the easiest way to avoid this addiction is to never > drink at all. > But, you propose this solution to everyone - which sounds like a sledgehammer to crack a nut to me. Besides the fact that I personally like a drop or two of whiskey, and a pint or two of beer from time to time. Your puritanism is not an appealing solution, imo. And I think avoiding the fact that I pointed out your attempt to personalise this argument "Just because YOU can take your beer doesn't mean that everyone can" to try to point at the motes in MY eye speaks of bad faith here. > >> You were saying? You're proposing that AIDs only affects the rich and > >> famous and not the 1.5 million africans who died last year? =A0At this > >> point I fail to see even the need to continue in the discussion. Your > >> facts presented are so far askew that this engagement strikes me more > >> as a waste of time. > >Again, you are misrepresenting what has been said. > >He said that malaria does NOT affect the rich, which is a reason why > >the western press doesn't talk about it much. > > Am I misrepresenting? Let's assume your best case as you have > presented it: That the major reason HIV receives this recognition is > because the powerful rich can also contract it making it a 'sexy' > disease. This is a well played out paranoid theory. > Are you trying to suggest that because I seem to have understood what Tim was getting at, while you went off at a tangent assuming that because Tim hadn't mentioned the fact that AIDS also affects poor people it meant that he was unaware of the large number of deaths due to AIDS in Africa, and foaming at the mouth about it too, that it makes ME paranoid? You appear to be projecting a lot here. > The reason HIV carriers such weight with the CDC has little to do with > the rich and everything to do with the fact that unlike malaria it > follows a potentially exponential contagion route. The rate of spread > for HIV if left unchecked will far exceed any other disease out there. > It represents the legitimate fear of any intelligent medical > practitioner to know that HIV can easily become a plague of pandemic > proportions. =A0 So your argument is that it's perfectly okay to ignore malaria? You're not interested in thinking about it? I don't know what the "CDC" is, by the way. As cited in the abstract below: > > The first postmodern pandemic: 25 years of HIV/ AIDS > L. O. Kallings > MD, Professor Emeritus, Clinical Microbiology, Former Secretary- > General of the International AIDS Society > Correspondence to Prof. Lars O. Kallings MD, PhD, Alev=E4gen 4, SE-182 > 67 Djursholm, Sweden. > > =A0J Intern Med 2008; 263: 218=96243. > ABSTRACT > =A0Abstract > > Science responded to the challenge of AIDS by rapidly identifying > aetiology, describing pathogenesis and transmission routes, and > developing diagnostic tests and treatment. However, this did not > prevent the global spread of HIV, with 25 million fatal cases so far, > another 33 million infected, and disastrous socioeconomic and > demographic consequences. In spite of unprecedented political > attention and financial resources, the response is falling further > behind the growth of the epidemic. This is partly due to the unique > characteristics of the virus, such as persistent infection, vertical > transmission and a variability that allows it to escape immunity and > antiretroviral drugs, and partly due to human characteristics such as > a strong procreative instinct, drug use and ostracism. Denial, myths > and complacency are major obstacles to rational measures. With no cure > or vaccine in sight, scaling up prevention is of paramount importance. > To meet the goal of universal access to prevention, treatment and care > by 2010 would require a quadrupling of funding to an estimated US$42 > billion by 2010, including adequate overall strengthening of > healthcare systems, but in any case, the world will have to learn to > live with HIV for the foreseeable future." > > Ignore the fact that HIV alone will kill 1.5 million in Africa this > year. Based on its' method of transmission and in particular how it > strips our immune system we can expect other plagues from > opportunistic bacteria (ie. drug resistant TB) which are allowed to > breed and develop resistance in the humans hosts of HIV. > Even should this disease be contained at 1.5 million per year in > Africa, it an expectation that a major plague affecting us all could > emerge from this population of AIDS victims. > I don't see this assertion in the abstract you quote. Kalings appears to make an estimate of how much it would cost to come up with an effective prevention campaign, and then on the basis of that estimate (and it's likelihood of being a priority) says that "we will have to live with AIDS for the forseeable future" - I don't see how anyone could argue with that. Since no cure or vaccine has been found yet, and people are becoming increasingly complacent about treatment and transmission in the west, or liable to go into denial, or believe old wive's tales (like the one that sex with a virgin can cure!) in the South, I don't see any quick solutions, do you? Nor do I see it's relevance to your tendency to a foaming-at-the-mouth reaction to something that Tim DIDN'T say in his post. > How could a person be familiar with this subject and claim that the > major reason we fund HIV R&D is because a few rich people have it? Again, not a claim I've seen coming from Tim here. > After 20+ years of R&D this disease still represents a greater risk to > all of us than any other out there including malaria. Malaria doesn't > carry the likelihood of jumping out of the jungle and killing off > large segments of our population. This has nothing to do with sexy. > Erm - Prof Kalings of the international AIDS foundation doesn't seem to be panicking about AIDS here. So why are you? > > > >Obviously, AIDS affects the poor even more than it affects the rich - > >but as I see it Tim was trying to make you think about malaria, and > >why that is considered a less "sexy" disease than HIV.- From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Mon Sep 29 22:20:26 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 209B74B0705 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2008 22:20:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jnDlvYUxm9q9 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2008 22:20:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 9E9364B091F; Mon, 29 Sep 2008 22:20:25 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 21:20:41 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 21:20:58 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Please let us teach the Faith in Israel Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 18:18:13 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <18OdnUufLJcGQELVnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@giganews.com> <-LOdnQiiB8BZr33VnZ2dnUVZ_o3inZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: u65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KkTv6-0004DD-72 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-bcENTK5BD0C2rwwcKpru9Csjumj7pddeb4wuIjMKhtWUdcSGVFZkewhBOUun8bb9hs5i82SodUmNitz!ZWd+rXADAh3hezoASlp7OQyql1cowVpFRAHBCVGX5MST1F6ZjJcqg22CQHl7OW7lG3Zr7HCaQg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25352 Hi Gilberto, I would have thought someone answered you by now. Anyway, there is nothing listed for events at the NYC Baha'i Center for that day. But you ask why someone would announce a meeting that is not scheduled? That would be speculation as to that person's motives. At this point I can hope that the person has a good reason, but I can think of no good that can come from that blog or such a meeting. As a Baha'i I disagree with teaching in Israel at this time. My reasons for disagreement are different from the reasons I have heard here, but, well, it is not time yet. When it is time it won't be because people force the issue with a blog or a forced meeting. --Kent On Sep 28, 8:39=A0pm, "Gilberto Simpson" wrote: > On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 8:15 PM, Susan wrote: > > I took a look at this blog and something seems quite off about it. > > My > > guess is that someone is trying to stir up trouble. =A0I checked out th e > > posting on the blog about the New York City meeting of Baha'is from > > Jewish > > background and no such meeting has been planned, let alone > > institutionally > > endorsed. > > Since the blog pretty obviously announces this meeting with a time and > date, doesn't that mean the meeting has been "planned"? > What would even be the purpose of announcing an "unplanned" meeting? From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Sep 30 01:43:26 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D3CE4B0A3E for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2008 01:43:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L7mbgzWpFgGr for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2008 01:43:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 6B61D4B0A3C; Tue, 30 Sep 2008 01:43:25 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 00:43:31 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 23:47:23 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=AOYmwZWtlx4dzTC2HShEc95Z3uxusziJ3bUk4s1+3A2zmmjrwZq78quspqzoGa2CyOPiqS9hZ1lzabse/Csx1hbDPvh7jp80GMYoZJA59z2s/CerJTX9kWP2eRKIORSGHkKpyVjmcVrJbXvZo0VnoJQ4N9U7K+Kby5hL0ooe3dU=; X-YMail-OSG: bnxLf2wVM1l3DQGBmeVSdwhPX0H1SuWJo.uPqotYqRdbiVQcKG4szsVrVLWtIT5zn53nPVNEuSRsi5g1HMcGOaXaMunrwoNE5FmtvOtkfspIBYtwgkmNfkIct3SVEv9tLzyDIxW2pEazOUbUVz4LrvTh Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 03:44:09 +0000 (GMT) From: Sizwe Cawe Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KkWCk-0007Tg-9d X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-kF4guhOQ+mf6zjnmmtPihKiWnOenpctE8JaesinjfAYsrq9AZG/URGgz6X/MwGH5/35Dgn1wM44xbA9!x34j5png8paxscsgbIFMKaOV4/Risxr/QRM2gXhFyZxFFG50XCI1gIqfyA+5uOT6Oku+21bDWQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25353 Dear Mr McAdam ng God as "He"=A0(or "She") seems to be a quirk of Indo-Germanic languages. -- cca.org Baha'i Writings? nal word and why is=A0 Indeed don't all religious Scriptures use the term "He", from whatever =A0 t 9:50 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote: >> I don't believe it is convention.=A0 Baha'u'llah=A0 is God's=A0 Manifestation and He used the term "He" and since He was only=A0 ealing what God willed then I believe we should use the term=A0 and not "she" but in reality God is not limited to either term=A0 ould agree with you on that. an English word. Baha'u'llah=A0 > tp://larry-gusaas.com ople are far behind=A0 From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Sep 30 02:09:45 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 201424B0768 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2008 02:09:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v4U2mvr7bGE5 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2008 02:09:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 809F94B07EE; Tue, 30 Sep 2008 02:09:43 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 01:10:22 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 02:06:02 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-2.4.2 (20060627) (Debian) at motzarella.org From: Larry Gusaas Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 00:05:43 -0600 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: X-Auth-Sender: U2FsdGVkX1/xT1q2PpscdR/RB1QMdGEOBCQOWZbyEMY= Cancel-Lock: sha1:bPoiq5kDergny9RtyvE9GlTaGeQ= User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Macintosh/20080914) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KkYMu-0008Op-4K X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-VFnE+QQhT378yGuc2W7hIzQ7HmxGRDHSHnW0Rv9eGrCvDMW2J4jgAGE4M1sP9t/Wl4Qh06OVyWZwrmM!YW9ZyzCODA1+rq0gM4nfr662ZMEU456ICYoF/LQtuQKVtgzjOoeD2cya4XweCVGdZ3/8B3wZCg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25354 Sizwe Cawe, 2008/09/29 9:44 PM: > Dear Mr McAdam > ng God as "He" (or "She") seems to be a quirk of Indo-Germanic languages. > > -- > cca.org > Baha'i Writings? > nal word and why is > Indeed don't all religious Scriptures use the term "He", from whatever > > t 9:50 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote: > > Please be more careful of what you clip. The statement that I clipped after "9:50 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:" was not written by me. I do not like it when other people's statements are attributed to me. >:o -- Larry I. Gusaas Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Sep 30 14:53:31 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7161E4B0014 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2008 14:53:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XxsuOO+vctSG for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2008 14:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 034144B001E; Tue, 30 Sep 2008 14:53:30 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 13:54:01 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 11:47:06 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=HmZriK418OH9HvH0WAKSrytFfDU9N23wXPzTXn0216cm5RsLNtrQWbw1X5oiKTdIbwwUdf3S1RxKq+xsvfEovk/FhsWQgqZzlcIfc/NTAvfMd87cnOlxO3hNSzt5F0XBD1Iohanoe5esDItOP/goj+BWZTKcDCK37hNeub7sSrw= ; X-YMail-OSG: FK7B8RAVM1kmsNjRU3G1rspFUihq31zbLNa0XU.hIMRmqLgiOjSYnlrsz2M0krkRh_qkExXsPiGKi6XzyMz0fxogHqcNNKgqXEDGa_4gpbHFDomqVdWtnSCoOGDI5TZluEU- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 11:46:44 -0400 References: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-shGaQvQ8STjF+bYWr/UhfEjqUYVzCo+UIKW13Jxn+1fwYGli+y7pqHHLtv1bspSkdEfvmDOK5xxow3t!Uld8MVYxB+QaNmTFfpzx1W7Fc6h5R7GLd/LqiuzbWEDb0GXNxO+Z1adEGMaLjWYelvPsO7GoUA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25355 On Sep 29, 2008, at 7:32 PM, PaulHammond wrote: > Besides the fact that I personally like a drop or two of whiskey, and > a pint or two of beer from time to time. People can say this to just about anything they want to enjoy. We alway rationalize our likes and dislikes. No offense Paul but as a person who deals with addictions and rehabilitation in a County Jail I hear this kind of sentiment a lot from citizens with whom I often discuss problems of crime which are 70% related to alcohol and drugs. I think the evidence in society speaks for itself in that more problems than good are caused by the use of these chemicals. What maybe we need to think about is making decisions based on proper knowledge and information not just because we like the feeling of something. I believe in God and I believe He sent us Baha'u'llah and Baha'u'llah has issued a law that we avoid alcohol unless prescribed by a Physician. So I obey and I strongly believe that if more people would do this we would not be having so many problems. Since one of our Teachings is the harmony of science and religion then we need to take into consideration there must be a good reason scientifically as well as spiritually and socially to avoid alcohol. Even if I was not a Baha'i, because of the problems I see with these chemicals, I would be careful about casting any dollar votes towards their continuance and so I try to avoid even restaurants that serve alcohol. Along this line I'm wondering if our problems today with making alcohol legal are worse or better than when it was not legal. regards, doug From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Sep 30 14:53:36 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 581294B0A19 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2008 14:53:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IpbLojcKfUp6 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2008 14:53:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 0B0404B0A1C; Tue, 30 Sep 2008 14:53:36 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 13:54:10 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 11:50:02 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=I7GlPXn7DymILOtxe6hn47F8NAlM/m96LZ6i0MUg22w47qgszeyzqzlKfwNul8OVQZulkvpSi5V+kANwvC7poiGqjtA24cdE5a6YI14MfpXnuynoZLJkSgepicfxyC5PO2C6PKK9nDcOiaELj0orNOysdrLwdO0S+ZQQPxfGn18= ; X-YMail-OSG: eSq5NO0VM1m2KZdSEye2OVWsJRyolaKc9FR092QbEB8drYyh4cwYEf9oE28gGMfAWFlZREcJTr.C4lJABnP_IDoxnTLUPdGqmbNxeYVMqak6AZqEZS3_Jpc9EcIuD67_g5Tlg0SFxwz1bXJpNxTDTYVZ4tcK X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 11:49:39 -0400 References: X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KkhU4-0000V8-3Y X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-XUGm5tl/gFx/G3kmR+YTGYdZ3J3PvXmnXXE8Jx9lbWAsYe/BujgqaJm00PAlU7t57i81SE1Nzd0ea6f!n0bM5MprDhoFJ+Vx2vlwCOpoOTnYDmcpD/oFOwPLozCRwqhhY4IPOJ78gk3FcCgLGzXOdFdFZw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25356 Hi Sizwe- What is the word in the original source language that Baha'u'llah used? Why did the Master or Guardian translate and interpret it as "He" since they are supposed to be infallible in matters such as this? regards, doug On Sep 29, 2008, at 11:44 PM, Sizwe Cawe wrote: > Dear Mr McAdam > ng God as "He" (or "She") seems to be a quirk of Indo-Germanic > languages. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Sep 30 14:55:18 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53D3E4B001E for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2008 14:55:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e+QYtACH-r2o for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2008 14:55:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id D41404B0A0B; Tue, 30 Sep 2008 14:55:17 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 13:55:49 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 14:29:10 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=uX/D2PoSFZd3asN9zMHPR981deu8EZ7Fa9ka+dNG/FfkRNwmE9Ui+FonTdwOZos7xHOnm/SbXgAMIIN6Uw3ZY+D4VbvvkaA5qrs56MJ1jiYAUHXZOhx7bPpM8qIp+P2Kig5LoY16uSavLv6bXt4qymgY5YA5FEY48Ydq5A+Pj3E=; X-YMail-OSG: GYemkPsVM1kKJY5RxlIHulXT8KYxli70YgvhI3K9sUxOzwZmJAS5iY08q7FPPMo4mK0GpM04xHMOwJ.kiHtLFhouX_stMzEudGMINNFjmp7lggbl5D1iz5Lo8vi2FihL69L37qWmE7ryMdL_Ox8bwhms Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 18:26:20 +0000 (GMT) From: Sizwe Cawe Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kkjy5-0004TZ-Re X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-cYRTXSk9bZipGTiEL5f0kpMtKgHVeliXCPZQsJq/SHc6OChs2SnSKFZec+68p8E1Pw/BJHzU35t5lnL!4wbgg6AMAd3SnNQ2dQcCXL26ca6+qm3PPKjTYMt0oOdprdQhQZ0NLrR0+Vmdgp64a85PFSLThA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25357 [Messages posted exactly as they are received. - mod] Dear Moderators ete and seems to have given the wrong impression. Are you in a position to rectify this? Cawe ptember, 2008 5:44:09 McAdam languages. Indeed don't all religious Scriptures use the term "He", from whatever =A0 =A0 Baha'u'llah=A0 is God's=A0 d since He was only=A0 e the term=A0 erm=A0 tp://larry-gusaas.com From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Sep 30 17:55:58 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB6114B0A3B for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2008 17:55:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YcMpUM1NXclP for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2008 17:55:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 66AF74B0A39; Tue, 30 Sep 2008 17:55:58 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 16:56:41 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 17:03:35 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: mikeran37@yahoo.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Please let us teach the Faith in Israel Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 14:03:24 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <18OdnUufLJcGQELVnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@giganews.com> <6fadnaNcWdtCg33VnZ2dnUVZ_uCdnZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com; posting-host=76.214.135.108; posting-account=M_40MwoAAACezPB6m4wCKE4LAJjMzCeb User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KkmNa-0000ZR-3o X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-0.302, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 2.30) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-xq67wwmm0rstahpjoQ/sgMS/q9iyMlIHc/Vt6Rv073EM2/fTGzopfNIctx1V3kH1xk6vwRLswe/4R+F!GZS2Z/f0uLigWGcqa43jjU/N76PYQffMZpkqy+cLMcw3FYu6RazBRXpVe+CB59p6mY7g75OH1w== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25358 On Sep 28, 4:25=A0pm, Douglas McAdam wrote: > I looked up the word in a search engine and found several hits such as =A0 > God Passes By, DawnBreakers and Baha'i World where it was used to =A0 > describe new believers to the Faith. =A0I don't see any definition =A0 > stating that conversion to a new religion means turning away from a =A0 > previous religion. =A0But I do believe that a person truly becomes =A0 > fulfilled in the Baha'i Faith. =A0I felt like I became a fulfilled =A0 > Christian when I declared in the Baha'i Faith and yet I also gave up =A0 > certain things that were not truly Christian but yet was what I was =A0 > taught in Church. =A0I see a difference between Christianity and what I =A0 > call Churchianity. =A0What about a sect who claim to be Christian but =A0 > who practice things like KKK? =A0If they became Baha'i wouldn't it be =A0 > good they gave up their previous beliefs and ways of living? > So I'm wondering what definition you are using Mike. > > regards, > doug > With regards to the KKK or any other like organization my answer is of course they should relinquish their old ways. But splinter groups do not represent a cohesive culture. In regards to conversion, christian missionaries back in the day all too often used the word convert to stamp out existing cultures, ie. Aztec, American Indians, Aboriginals..etc. It is this connotation associated with the word conversion which I think Baha'is should avoid. Mike From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Sep 30 17:56:53 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F6C04B0A39 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2008 17:56:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uyH8wbU8n2fI for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2008 17:56:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id A6A0C4B0A3B; Tue, 30 Sep 2008 17:56:52 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 16:56:55 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 17:11:27 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: mikeran37@yahoo.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 14:11:13 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: q9g2000hsb.googlegroups.com; posting-host=76.214.135.108; posting-account=M_40MwoAAACezPB6m4wCKE4LAJjMzCeb User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KkmV8-00022O-6n X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-0.302, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 2.30) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-Pgnl50HeC79HVj2+chSbhpMFcYBp9NIrTRfGoR7jDZwXN+IwtU27YGMs3f62kMikF5vUUJtNU0oCzAG!IVQzDLyoq2YuWjHRU6NP5Clm0o7kZGS3yUCIfIpb8Ro7WCnrcGpzwmPvkoSM8h6zvZ+U5JbrvQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25359 talk.religion.bahai:118305 alt.religion.bahai:21065 >But, you propose this solution to everyone - which sounds like a >sledgehammer to crack a nut to me. >Besides the fact that I personally like a drop or two of whiskey, and >a pint or two of beer from time to time. >Your puritanism is not an appealing solution, imo. Label it as unappealing, that is your prerogative. But you just conceded that it is a solution all the same. Which is a far cry from Tims original position. And appealing or not, the original premise that Baha'u'llah prescribed a course of action that is somehow harmful is negated by your own concession and the facts that be. >Are you trying to suggest that because I seem to have understood what >Tim was getting at, while you went off at a tangent assuming that >because Tim hadn't mentioned the fact that AIDS also affects poor >people it meant that he was unaware of the large number of deaths due >to AIDS in Africa, and foaming at the mouth about it too, that it >makes ME paranoid? Actually yes. It's paranoid to assume or defend a person making the assumption: > that malaria does NOT affect the rich, which is a reason why >the western press doesn't talk about it much. Here's what was originally stated: >What about malaria? The only reason AIDS gets more press is because it >affects the rich and famous while malaria does not By the way, it was you who introduced the term, "Western press". Now that we're talking paranoia, why should it matter whether they're western or eastern press? He's at least unaware that the media is not pandering to the rich by publicizing it. Doesn't using a phrase like, "foaming at the mouth" seem to personalize things a bit? Actually my Jaw is on the floor and here is why: >I don't know what the "CDC" is, by the way. Center for Disease control. I'll explain it on your terms: That's the government organization where the western press go to get their info on AIDs to publicize it for the rich people who want to exploit the africans by making money off of their all too expensive malaria vaccines. I'm just paraphrasing, isn't this what was said? >Yet some of the rich are rich only because the malaria vaccine is too expe nsive for the 2.7 >million people killed by malaria every year (Bremen et. al. 2001). By virtue of your silence on the matter and your vigilance with respect to me I'll assume that you agree with him. "The Malaria Vaccine Initiative (MVI) was established by Program for Appropriate Technology in Health (PATH) through a US$50 million seed grant from the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. MVI seeks to accelerate the development of promising malaria vaccines and ensure their availability for the developing world. For further information about MVI and PATH, visit the Web sites at www.MalariaVaccine.org and www.path.org." Is that the rich person you're talking about. Is that the person who donated 50 million? He certainly must be making money off that vaccine. Do a good deed and look at how people act?!? >> Even should this disease be contained at 1.5 million per year in >> Africa, it an expectation that a major plague affecting us all could >> emerge from this population of AIDS victims. >I don't see this assertion in the abstract you quote. "AIDS-Related Opportunistic Infections :: epidemiology Przegl Epidemiol. 2008 ;62 (1):113-21 18536233 (P,S,G,E,B) [Tuberculosis in Europe and Poland--new molecular families and new resistance patterns] At present despite methods of fast recognition of the disease and efficient antituberculosis drugs not only we cannot contain the epidemic but we can see an increase in new cases of tuberculosis including its drug resistant variety. Causes of aggravation of the situation are varied and ought to be examined separately in case of any particular region. One of the major ones are bad programmes of fighting against the disease or their inadequate realization, ignoring a problem of tuberculosis in developed countries, lack of money for treatment in developing countries and coincidence with HIV virus. " This is one citation of many, but it makes my point. HIV in poorer countries serves as a breeding ground for TB and drug resistant TB giving it a springboard from which to infect the entire population (that's you, me and the rich people the western media are pandering to), not just AIDs patients. >Erm - Prof Kalings of the international AIDS foundation doesn't seem >to be panicking about AIDS here. So why are you? "The first postmodern pandemic: 25 years of HIV/ AIDS " Maybe it has something to do with the word pandemic in title of the paper? Here's a Wiki quote: "A pandemic is an epidemic of infectious disease that spreads through human populations across a large region; for instance a continent, or even worldwide. AIDS is now a pandemic.[4] In 2007, an estimated 33.2 million people lived with the disease worldwide, and it killed an estimated 2.1 million people, including 330,000 children.[5] Over three-quarters of these deaths occurred in sub-Saharan Africa,[5] retarding economic growth and destroying human capital.[6] According to the World Health Organization (WHO), a pandemic can start when three conditions have been met: the emergence of a disease new to the population. the agent infects humans, causing serious illness. the agent spreads easily and sustainably among humans" Am I teaching a C.E. course now? (That's continuing education) I think my point was made three postings back, so I plan to drop this. Drink up if you must. Nobody will ever force you to be a Baha'i. Or if you want to be Baha'i and still think drinking is to your benefit, consult with your physician and make the prudent choice. Call us puritanical and in some areas I'll take it as a compliment. But don't deceive yourself, no amount of intellectual discourse will ever decide if Baha'u'llah is or isn't a divine person. "The story is told of a mystic knower, who went on a journey with a learned grammarian as his companion. They came to the shore of the Sea of Grandeur. The knower straightway flung himself into the waves, but the grammarian stood lost in his reasonings, which were as words that are written on water. The knower called out to him, "Why dost thou not follow?" The grammarian answered, "O Brother, I dare not advance. I must needs go back again." Then the knower cried, "Forget what thou didst read in the books of Sibavayh and Qawlavayh, of Ibn-i-Hajib and Ibn-i-Malik, [1] and cross the water." [1 Famed writers on grammar and rhetoric.] =A052=A0 The death of self is needed here, not rhetoric: Be nothing, then, and walk upon the waves. [1]" (Baha'u'llah, The Four Valleys, p. 51) From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Sep 30 17:57:07 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A46A34B0A3F for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2008 17:57:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h3fL-7etSy+p for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2008 17:57:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 13EAB4B0A40; Tue, 30 Sep 2008 17:57:07 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 16:57:21 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 17:42:53 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=R7XdYZ9CHrP1S5E/0DOjVxzqplvqnoBuum4pwxc8CI3dypBjbENtN7xVEg3dpC485nQK6VlciLVGQ9tHY+WjzV8tJYhLjWjWiFWihArUg17goIhBV8QAB+9ufyKuCgN59pU+Amg7Q3/y9YcjEcJlz8NvtCN+3xfSYaNJj1F9s1M= ; X-YMail-OSG: r5YVNCIVM1kHhYM9TmNAeKYHfnY1ph0xLoFHs6l4oEeKp28t5h0lwS1KTk8K6i9pgmVoVjNhJVRPz9j3n1V_.QS6AoXhrXzDG1.Rdo.NNo_93h.oHp4PVn7zN7p669SlWpep7siGYGmjfqf7fCyk4TalEJunejP7UGUx1iWsN5K_z7nmjQ-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 17:42:35 -0400 References: X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KkmzV-00051e-Me X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-uOINdPd2C5DjgJ/YIFRpq9hzIHUkMdbBggHT9hHWqjr8eF7u0oI8MCQFGHNx/7VZEFAnwvqjGdKi9wi!zVUWVX78kkrgaBEo3yky3asXz5XVkN5gcoo2BnERhwK7fkSxKk4utRC8Ozutgx37orNnN6A3LQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25360 Dear Sizwe- Why are your messages and the quotes from others being cut off at the beginning like what is shown below? Who is giving the wrong impression and why do you think this? doug On Sep 30, 2008, at 2:26 PM, Sizwe Cawe wrote: > [Messages posted exactly as they are received. - mod] > > Dear Moderators > ete and seems to have given the wrong impression. Are you in a > position to > rectify this? > Cawe > ptember, 2008 5:44:09 > McAdam > languages. > Indeed don't all religious Scriptures use the term "He", from whatever > > Baha'u'llah is God's > d since He was only > e the term > erm > tp://larry-gusaas.com > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Sep 30 19:05:09 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0887C4B0A47 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2008 19:05:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aBtV19uDrCQv for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2008 19:05:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 4C1E24B0A44; Tue, 30 Sep 2008 19:05:08 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 18:05:31 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 18:26:54 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.4.0.080122 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 11:26:32 -1100 Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? From: Bill Hyman Thread-Topic: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Thread-Index: AckjS5cF1UxitI8+Ed2bKQAwZXfiJg== In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at blueskynet.as X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kkng9-0008Id-JI X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-4fsCet6lvruQOoCFWx7pRAQqDUM2+YpXRjKz5yv8CEs5bRuxM2GgLAvXuqaBBcmDcI1o/7rT4S6W9Qd!IPOODtjuJb/jcyI2JUmheG8BBXaj0CiXmO8JI/2oZpzjoyT/Wdqwsic7KmfbpCtPZGaHHnsdNw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25361 Hi Doug: It took me 6 months to quit my beer after I became a Baha'i. Nowadays I run the only FCC approved television station South of the equator and could get rich if I advertised alcoholic products because there is so much funding for beer advertising, especially in sports advertising. As a consequence of my not pushing this drug most distributors will not advertise any of their other products with me, so my station (K11UU Pago Pago) runs on a shoe string, but I am happy, and Baha'u'llah's name is well known, and respected. Bill On 9/30/08 4:46 AM, "Douglas McAdam" wrote: > > On Sep 29, 2008, at 7:32 PM, PaulHammond wrote: > >> Besides the fact that I personally like a drop or two of whiskey, and >> a pint or two of beer from time to time. > > People can say this to just about anything they want to enjoy. We > alway rationalize our likes and dislikes. > No offense Paul but as a person who deals with addictions and > rehabilitation in a County Jail I hear this kind of sentiment a lot > from citizens with whom I often discuss problems of crime which are > 70% related to alcohol and drugs. I think the evidence in society > speaks for itself in that more problems than good are caused by the > use of these chemicals. > > What maybe we need to think about is making decisions based on proper > knowledge and information not just because we like the feeling of > something. > > I believe in God and I believe He sent us Baha'u'llah and Baha'u'llah > has issued a law that we avoid alcohol unless prescribed by a > Physician. So I obey and I strongly believe that if more people would > do this we would not be having so many problems. Since one of our > Teachings is the harmony of science and religion then we need to take > into consideration there must be a good reason scientifically as well > as spiritually and socially to avoid alcohol. > > Even if I was not a Baha'i, because of the problems I see with these > chemicals, I would be careful about casting any dollar votes towards > their continuance and so I try to avoid even restaurants that serve > alcohol. Along this line I'm wondering if our problems today with > making alcohol legal are worse or better than when it was not legal. > > regards, > doug > > > > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Sep 30 19:43:15 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0DAE4B09F6 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2008 19:43:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vTzNZlTuYE9h for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2008 19:43:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 2CF674B0A27; Tue, 30 Sep 2008 19:43:14 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 18:43:25 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 19:39:45 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: mikeran37@yahoo.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 16:39:30 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com; posting-host=70.229.26.45; posting-account=M_40MwoAAACezPB6m4wCKE4LAJjMzCeb User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.1.3) Gecko/20070323 PCLinuxOS/2.0.0.3-3pclos2007 (2007) Firefox/2.0.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kkoof-000505-7b X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-0.302, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 2.30) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-yWdDhmjOuD3CSkvXABYZ5lBbT/S52r89nVofdYu4YsR+zQwBKLDbY949eSih1L9ns8SkALOy02ogmTt!gA0KvnlRqPjjStw+bRlepyxqH47FNtsZWRK5h2ELE4NiYlLQYhS3EPG4M8s0dF3u9bCSPhepEg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25362 > alcohol. Along this line I'm wondering if our problems today with > making alcohol legal are worse or better than when it was not legal. > > regards, > doug I think it should be kept legal. The better approach might be to use the same methods applied to smoking cessation. Those +white-lies+ commercials are really having an impact. When children are raised to perceive the true evils associated with smoking or drinking you can count on most of them making the right call. Over time people will just come resent the companies which produce alcohol and it will be seen as nothing less than an exploitive evil. Mike From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 1 17:55:55 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C877B4B060C for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:55:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UnnSd5mrboHE for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:55:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 452314B0648; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:55:55 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 16:56:34 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 08:02:58 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 05:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: u57g2000hsf.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.2.209; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kl0Pw-00013t-CI X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: <39qdnZ6VSI6Pb37VnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-0DphUt5fUIopmZ0qF6TGnN7ERYy4gMa4CPKiIzwNUTZ7rlFeKGHD8xUu1O/iqUUVd4jQQHwoRTiNyT5!ruWh9gkn4jKGeKZX5QfIqpukSMTuuTDj/Db/7GcrWqHhATvvH2vTQoUF/ikxhP/1buAa1+Bepw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25363 Hi Doug, Devout Muslims drink alcohol. My wife grew up Baha'i, and often as a youth she would explain sex before marriage was against her religion. That's okay, its against every religion. The ones who rationalize are those of us who say that something bad will happen if we don't make a personal moral commitment to the virtues we have chosen to develop within ourselves. Nothing bad will happen. The point is that if we commit to such a path, to virtue, chastity God's law, any one of us, good things will happen. Not today, not tomorrow, but in the long run, God has promised those confirmations and rewards for His faithful. Making a thing legal or illegal will not solve any problem. Personal commitment and rational endeavor can help any problem. Wearing seatbelts is the law. But if we had zero tolerance for those who broke the law, and mandatory prison terms for violators, we would have dead cops from those who could not abide the law, and could not go back to prison. The law sounds good, but its unintended effects might be catastrophic. Our prisons are filled with addicts. Is that the best way to handle them? The worst that could happen from Paul drinking alcohol is that he might get arrested, and he might waste his life. One choice is society's, the other is Paul's. --Kent On Sep 30, 11:46=A0am, Douglas McAdam wrote: > On Sep 29, 2008, at 7:32 PM, PaulHammond wrote: > > > Besides the fact that I personally like a drop or two of whiskey, and > > a pint or two of beer from time to time. > > People can say this to just about anything they want to enjoy. =A0We =A0 > alway rationalize our likes and dislikes. > No offense Paul but as a person who deals with addictions and =A0 > rehabilitation in a County Jail I hear this kind of sentiment a lot =A0 > from citizens with whom I often discuss problems of crime which are =A0 > 70% related to alcohol and drugs. I think the evidence in society =A0 > speaks for itself in that more problems than good =A0are caused by the =A0 > use of these chemicals. > > What maybe we need to think about is making decisions based on proper =A0 > knowledge and information not just because we like the feeling of =A0 > something. > > I believe in God and I believe He sent us Baha'u'llah and Baha'u'llah =A0 > has issued a law that we avoid alcohol unless prescribed by a =A0 > Physician. =A0So I obey and I strongly believe that if more people would =A0 > do this we would not be having so many problems. =A0 Since one of our =A0 > Teachings is the harmony of science and religion then we need to take =A0 > into consideration there must be a good reason scientifically as well =A0 > as spiritually and socially to avoid alcohol. > > Even if I was not a Baha'i, because of the problems I see with these =A0 > chemicals, I would be careful about casting any dollar votes towards =A0 > their continuance and so I try to avoid even restaurants that serve =A0 > alcohol. =A0Along this line I'm wondering if our problems today with =A0 > making alcohol legal are worse or better than when it was not legal. > > regards, > doug From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 1 17:55:58 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 470604B0A94 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:55:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ogJthmOKdbyO for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:55:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id CA69A4B0AA3; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:55:57 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 16:56:41 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 10:41:30 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: ajv Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 07:41:09 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: d31g2000hsg.googlegroups.com; posting-host=67.61.22.76; posting-account=5hiaogoAAACPzYWz4wIuUrvX7FKDFdQ1 User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US) AppleWebKit/525.13 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/0.2.149.30 Safari/525.13,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kl2tJ-0005vm-94 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-0mwKeT0WGRi4obYZBubCl3ruCdpJjxdwhEXr4hdIYPYwJsZnXaTEocfHKSMYhz9sq8psQA+Zz1ibW18!DUBpiqi1qMZcIkbI0hCGalCZW4PWinnRruNK5+kMCgOV1UHL6+CT/ZczQthISfiDCafVfuajLA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25364 To me it's immaterial what the original language was. I use English and 'Abdu'l-Baha saw to it that Shoghi Effendi was well trained in English. Most of the writings were translated by him. Irrespective of his competence, he was unerring in interpreting the essence of the Message in his writings. Thus the question becomes, why would anyone want to second guess the meaning by going back to the original language without the benefit of being protected from error in re- translation? Regards, Albert ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Douglas McAdam Date: Sep 30, 10:49=A0am Subject: What are Baha'i Writings? Hi Sizwe- What is the word in the original source language that Baha'u'llah used? Why did the Master or Guardian translate and interpret it as "He" =A0 since they are supposed to be infallible in matters such as this? regards, doug On Sep 29, 2008, at 11:44 PM, Sizwe Cawe wrote: > Dear Mr McAdam > ng God as "He" (or "She") seems to be a quirk of Indo-Germanic =A0 > languages. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 1 17:56:49 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46F104B063B for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:56:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vMCtkVs6MWq2 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:56:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id EC1494B06F4; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:56:48 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 16:56:48 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 10:59:50 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: ajv Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Please let us teach the Faith in Israel Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 07:59:33 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: v28g2000hsv.googlegroups.com; posting-host=67.61.22.76; posting-account=5hiaogoAAACPzYWz4wIuUrvX7FKDFdQ1 User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US) AppleWebKit/525.13 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/0.2.149.30 Safari/525.13,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kl3B1-0007To-Hi X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-BpF1zXJ38iod5RHlHYhch1vflwptvXcMaV74ugoSYY3aLGDs5bLLfLRboPlZxYaoDpMxBnja6Y5cCkv!hI1c56HPwDaGVHSEbevmJnB5k0LasTZ8aDXj3xov0fE61vZICdV2WfxaViAUBHKjyTi7aLgTEg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25365 On Sep 23, 11:25=A0am, josephratz.r...@gmail.com wrote: > Dear Friends > See this blog - its regarding converting Jews to our faith. It is very > interesting > > http://jewbahais.blogspot.com Unless the Universal House of Justice approves, we are doing harm to the Faith by proceeding on our own. And thus I am strongly opposed to teaching the Jewish people in Israel. Regards, Albert From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 1 17:56:52 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C97F4B0AA3 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:56:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5QTdeFIc7z3c for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:56:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id CB2B34B0AA7; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:56:51 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 16:56:54 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 12:02:06 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: Susan Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 09:01:54 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: e17g2000hsg.googlegroups.com; posting-host=76.107.89.62; posting-account=gtZNrgoAAADgBahMtWCWhGggkEcamn6r User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 6.0; SLCC1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; Media Center PC 5.0; .NET CLR 3.0.04506),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kl49K-0004lk-3n X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-Yx0t7I11JEyPZ1k7/7Y5JLyWkAzgMgzDzBjYICIyi0ZtSz9ag2NqCNWphF9aOjd1L1HjNeiFOkrK/1L!E7xB0d/BYoGt/cjHKHJBBVyk5jjyz1dhcN+I43dXpiI/bsUF+k/KDa0NRTThzFjrV8tzwP9gWg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25366 > No matter. I figure the Manifestations use "He" for a reason, and > whatever that reason, it is good enough for me. > Dear Romane, When They were writing in Persian They did not use "He" as Persian has no gender. warmest, Susan From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 1 17:57:02 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 913CC4B0AA3 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:57:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rDcniiuubH1q for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:57:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 3B90C4B0AA4; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:57:02 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 16:57:11 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 12:04:10 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: Susan Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 09:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> <4N6dnR98hJk6WkPVnZ2dnUVZ_hudnZ2d@giganews.com> <6N-dnaWo7JoDV0PVnZ2dnUVZ_j6dnZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: v15g2000hsa.googlegroups.com; posting-host=76.107.89.62; posting-account=gtZNrgoAAADgBahMtWCWhGggkEcamn6r User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 6.0; SLCC1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; Media Center PC 5.0; .NET CLR 3.0.04506),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kl4BK-0004sp-Oy X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-LLdnNg9kz+MQ0dKwBe/PGUUn2kM+c5uz1O55KHdgpbRg1qHsVqAr+c5jaYnDBe2zSQ6/uL3RwsrU761!CP86E8Yl6nA5SkylVvlgNq7H7tByLnINJw8t7mZtAX4QysfrRLagFqoA0FLWCE2XA6ONLMWu4Q== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25367 On Sep 27, 7:26=A0pm, compx2 wrote: > Not that it makes a difference, since you agree God is not limited by > gender, but the words Baha'u'llah used in Persian and Arabic were > translated as "He" by Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of > Justice. Personal pronouns in Arabic, like English require gender so when Baha'u'llah was writing in Arabic He called God "He." Not so in Persian which has no gender. Then it is the translator's choice. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 1 17:57:19 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70DC14B0AAF for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:57:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CcaK2FZGAxqg for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:57:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 1F06C4B0AB1; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:57:19 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 16:57:42 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 12:07:17 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: Susan Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 09:07:05 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> <4N6dnR98hJk6WkPVnZ2dnUVZ_hudnZ2d@giganews.com> <6N-dnaWo7JoDV0PVnZ2dnUVZ_j6dnZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: h60g2000hsg.googlegroups.com; posting-host=76.107.89.62; posting-account=gtZNrgoAAADgBahMtWCWhGggkEcamn6r User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 6.0; SLCC1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; Media Center PC 5.0; .NET CLR 3.0.04506),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kl4EK-00054O-8o X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-wdLrhK0GmqU/1vXukx/VVaC4wXVZRMIHjVjwH+DtZRuuLtlTvmFAh8fL0rCGOsGSEMRV9yJEtXCiQ9c!aZF3ehznpeWM7DNi36fQdIWkM591PPEwPcemYFTsAfzkOeGP2iHp63Ot6TPtMgkqbUNSASpKUw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25368 On Sep 28, 4:27=A0pm, Douglas McAdam wrote: > That is a good point Larry. =A0So what was the original word Dear Doug, The Arabic word is Hu'a which definitely carries the male gender. The Persian word is "oo" which can be translated as "he" or "she." and why is =A0 > it translated as "He" in English by the Guardian? What else was he going to do? At the time the male form was the default in English. > Indeed don't all religious Scriptures use the term "He", from whatever =A0 > language was the original? If they are talking about gods rather than goddesses. warmest, Susan From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 1 17:57:23 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94BF44B0AB1 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:57:23 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uUq5AheMEO28 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:57:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 3CE014B0AB4; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:57:23 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 16:57:49 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 12:10:16 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: Susan Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 09:10:03 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com; posting-host=76.107.89.62; posting-account=gtZNrgoAAADgBahMtWCWhGggkEcamn6r User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 6.0; SLCC1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; Media Center PC 5.0; .NET CLR 3.0.04506),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kl4HD-0005M0-4s X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-UktBPNrzAIgrH5j2e0G9ws/ieNYMj7uUYV6hwWk8sJxADh1EsPbDtUv+/AoP2NYJHwMiYwwnvYoLZYa!IAVaoJfw35sXHimlQVl1Apn7bkR22wZwfBiKc2U+/YwIWmY0t9Nf+DFAxE1ELjBZqqzOT/lqkQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25369 On Sep 29, 10:44=A0pm, Sizwe Cawe wrote: > Dear Mr McAdam > ng God as "He"=A0(or "She") seems to be a quirk of Indo-Germanic language s. Not really. Persian is an Indo-European language, yet it has no gender. Semitic languages like Arabic, however, require them. English (a Germanic language) requires less gender identification than Romance languages like Spanish. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 1 17:57:36 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A95724B0AB1 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:57:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S+k7Ocz245he for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:57:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 4B1134B0AB2; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:57:36 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 16:58:12 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 12:52:39 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=OJYsoXgM8SsrnPQhMgeY5ZN7xjoW/ikEPoDCoAcQ4WpKuNGw0hjFMzHcwurFzsJWrDT6yFdqpm88kvgOTIfuY/Z4yQCs02WL1OeVJp0FADyW57ORh8WuZttoKwNQ21EctRSNIlVoDEgQcL/whsCJXr/RRSX969pumMJ48KITI0I= ; X-YMail-OSG: IPmYCu4VM1mxTLr8jDYvVAGwCHYJYk9q60CqNSGxkmgtLTIrz.Ygk5Bu8K7xAKtGycHefMJ9icbqQVzMwbAM1rCKs.CabiswDBGSkpgDPDAMB1Ti_6JZwMlPbFyC187FbPk- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 12:52:22 -0400 References: X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kl4wA-0000Sb-KA X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-Wvbp+bSGLWpcYFv9ybi5/biPgKruDK/ovt1bERbeNnDGHJCZvJA4K7BWbz2SThO3klv4d6nniHFQw42!cNKALHwwhsAD+vMrnZxzB4djszqIUr+PuBgtZfhbNmXics7RP/X7K7MZFGqzG66IxuoV8Ef8XQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25370 God bless you Bill. Nice to hear from you again. As I said, I have been clean for 40 yrs but it took me a long, long time to get over the bad thinking and damage to my body. It took proper nutrition, a lot of therapy from application of the Writings in a special process which we now use in our SED project for Troubled Youth and Adult Offenders and the result of the combination of study, application and teaching. You example is something to consider because our society so values these harmful products that they will support a radio station that promotes them but not one that is promoting good physical, mental and spiritual health. Keep up the good work, doug On Sep 30, 2008, at 6:26 PM, Bill Hyman wrote: > Hi Doug: > > It took me 6 months to quit my beer after I became a Baha'i. > > Nowadays I run the only FCC approved television station South of the > equator > and could get rich if I advertised alcoholic products because there > is so > much funding for beer advertising, especially in sports advertising. > As a > consequence of my not pushing this drug most distributors will not > advertise > any of their other products with me, so my station (K11UU Pago Pago) > runs on > a shoe string, but I am happy, and Baha'u'llah's name is well known, > and > respected. > > Bill From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 1 17:57:44 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FAAD4B0ABD for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:57:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g9ukaRvGjo5k for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:57:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 847F24B0AB2; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:57:43 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 16:58:25 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 13:00:29 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=AZibJTjIgq7dQzL9NEd1jJah/L8rl26PLBxnu3cqHpmibAioNH9hRjIyNoCvQZXpPKuh6ldJF2+iu0/ogDrM2vXkFazwZA43zNz8QMEAFRsbvc6M85hjXt0X5EPq1rjY/NHrTiFmrsCH3l5O2HvYcp+jbtKHdlj2LbZyB343aaA= ; X-YMail-OSG: j5ABYssVM1lBqxOE2s.08GBy5e_YJcIcUM20DVqoZvNtHPUcA3lq13Vk3VKi8n9JYSo2CcDqxyPRHqzvLa2YRexsDseBXZABtAxuk5ts9HgMgarz.3PFD5l8shxW3l9wFuKt7lFp3jOt5cTuwBRT7OUd X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 13:00:12 -0400 References: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-mxx+8BErt7Ln/TWP8Z2gRBBv82fTGVP8ObrnYuAnsXs88B5UYKLp+7EV70kVtVUHa1WW45V1RVN/RQH!2UodMrU2rJGqf7vkayVRwPCeReSvOAORjnt490zn8Qlus8VcJcZRiGhirTK4wxSx1tgJxP7CkQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25371 Hi Mike- I would agree in a way but yet to me if God has forbidden something then civil law should do likewise. From my perspective the harmful effects of alcohol and drugs, including tobacco is not being manifested by example in our media and society. Look at the alcohol and drug commercials. I believe America has become a drug culture both legal and illegal. On the other hand I don't think one can legalize morality. In other words making laws is not the answer either. The answer to me is to learn how to face and deal intelligently with reality in a holistic sense, i.e. body, mind and spirit and our present education system and examples by adults is doing the opposite. To give you an example the program we use in our Social and Economic Development project treats body, mind and spirit but it is not religious in the strict sense of trying to impose a religion on others and yet the various "powers that be" from our traditional thinking society oppose us because it can and does interfere with their political and profit making practices. regards, doug On Sep 30, 2008, at 7:39 PM, mikeran37@yahoo.com wrote: >> >> alcohol. Along this line I'm wondering if our problems today with >> making alcohol legal are worse or better than when it was not legal. >> >> regards, >> doug > > I think it should be kept legal. The better approach might be to > use the same methods applied to smoking cessation. Those +white-lies+ > commercials are really having an impact. When children are raised to > perceive the true evils associated with smoking or drinking you can > count on most of them making the right call. Over time people will > just come resent the companies which produce alcohol and it will be > seen as nothing less than an exploitive evil. > > Mike From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 1 17:58:35 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD4A84B0AB4 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:58:35 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0-AF0YJDrHUi for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:58:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 298084B0ABD; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:58:35 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 16:58:35 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 13:16:49 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=U/VFMaMKSh6zRPrdVaeDl1wL82qQwCoy6Foq3OoLtWu1CGwMb7g9M7Qrt6uxb/ueo2Getl3bm8JaiCS5y2dnmPvwdgmZYuiH4kiA2iP563FDSNLQxcWV6DfcUEJUddcA6XfvtfSNSdIF2vIvZO4pu46tDsD+i8LIgLaymFnW8bQ= ; X-YMail-OSG: 3dyeiLIVM1m9sA8ZZZdqZHndpaCbGw0E4OWkH3NKEHxTRB2BT9Edbic3dDxCBUHgHyzr7aMLk9oR_I2yjny1qpw9JRPYu1MqEelGDx9e6SPcHFoHUzi0lQSYKaUtdc8eVifrjxFvq0O5xUcEz7AvpX4oxFh5l162x7tgMg2.UEh9Jtsxog-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Please let us teach the Faith in Israel Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 13:16:07 -0400 References: <18OdnUufLJcGQELVnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@giganews.com> <6fadnaNcWdtCg33VnZ2dnUVZ_uCdnZ2d@giganews.com> X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kl5Ja-0002gY-1M X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-YjoRJA4FOtNyr298c+9ks3tgf55IxdmT68PyDusiCosrCe/E0EcPGw2fm8mCPk01q+uV36WdNI2phq4!ZvcbryGTSFsA3kB0BUDqFq/TvWhdL7IkpaN8qEqQ4chm68iy3O/91vDvpG97WNLOI0MNLOOVng== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25372 Hi Mike- The only time I have heard or read Baha'is using the term "conversion" or "converts" has been amongst ourselves and it is always a positive thing. As far as main stream Christianity, Muslims, etc. I think they do need to convert from their old ways. For example take the subject of gender, race and religious equality, isn 't it of benefit believers of the past change the old ways of seeing and acting? There are many church doctrines of the past that need to be dropped because they cause disunity. The Jail in which I do our SED project is mostly a Baptist facility, meaning the Sheriff, most Admin. and Guards are all Baptists or in some way identifying with traditional "churchianity" and they say I'm anti-Christian because I am a Baha'i and not a member of their churches. A civic leader here from whom we were hoping to get support told us we were nice guys but our program will not succeed here because of our religion. Far as I'm concerned our present culture ought to be stamped out and replaced with a new. But it is a long process, one accomplished by proper ways not by the sword like the old days. regards, doug On Sep 30, 2008, at 5:03 PM, mikeran37@yahoo.com wrote: > With regards to the KKK or any other like organization my answer is of > course they should relinquish their old ways. But splinter groups do > not represent a cohesive culture. In regards to conversion, christian > missionaries back in the day all too often used the word convert to > stamp out existing cultures, ie. Aztec, American Indians, > Aboriginals..etc. It is this connotation associated with the word > conversion which I think Baha'is should avoid. > > Mike From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 1 19:08:04 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 235544B0A94 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 19:08:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8nFBqEDWqBjV for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 19:08:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 47B414B0AB4; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 19:08:03 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 18:08:23 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 18:51:03 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=47VeFBBPDgUAO15ZqMNl18dd9S4EAFZ41293y6tPuSoZwrpTB69n+RLYzLrOnGkIE4GcIUe824nSHlSWFNEM0tGFlHsAoPxoBmpoJDeyyKygOU1RN37LaWCM8rL/feg3/eUgQfZgaR30MhUMQX21TViBjjHVr3WshopDo83/Un0= ; X-YMail-OSG: 86PbanIVM1lJaredF4.ORE48ezwfQYRwCMGoX3ehWs_PScFuxglymChgwChtluMKvlohtjvMnvYKkET3oWAtuJ9qyp5RU.kOYCAdRj1UKBNFEhKEjTkcQVRl_qd9WpOAzWvJpRW5_BLvvxvaqHuIZGV8pTcZ.pGZ9.AGVmJ7gpwQI7q0Fw-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: <39qdnZ6VSI6Pb37VnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 18:50:47 -0400 References: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-nByp4SZAUb35KgQo+JpdWYXwATMrpxLJH55kurJVz5KJLNtgzE5OhOHbAYjVtPXJ4os2INnGHAGKS5m!dMooFed5kl3X13KIfn1zCJT8sGca4LmgQkDSwi6VB69FkhGC/A/EffGerkIxss2fBVcpqBPw4w== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25373 Kent, I am lost when trying to understand your opinion here. You say nothing bad will happen if we don't make a moral commitment to the virtues we have chosen to develop and then later you said good things will happen, not today, not tomorrow but in the long run . If a person choses today t be honest isn't that better than being dishonest? If he or she choses not to do drugs and alcohol, isn't that going to be better than destroying ones brain and body? I agree that making things legal or illegal will not solve the problem but yet when we become conscious of God's Law and strive to obey it will make things better won't it? If not then why did God gives us those laws? I agree that prison is not the answer. However the purpose of jails and prisons is to protect the society. Does it protect society to allow a criminal to be released because he has money and can provide bail? Does it protect society to incarcerate a lawbreaker and not provide proper detox, rehab, re-entry and aftercare? Not only will Paul waste his life but it will hurt society by losing his capacity or if a family man his family will suffer. From my perspective and experience there is nothing good about using alcohol and drugs. I'm old enough to recall how I rationalized their use and then experienced addiction and I also saw many people claim they are social drinkers, only drinking once in a while but then something would happen, they became in need of increased amounts and something bad would happen to them to cause them to use more and more. regards, doug On Oct 1, 2008, at 8:01 AM, compx2 wrote: > Hi Doug, > > Devout Muslims drink alcohol. My wife grew up Baha'i, and often as a > youth she would explain sex before marriage was against her religion. > That's okay, its against every religion. The ones who rationalize are > those of us who say that something bad will happen if we don't make a > personal moral commitment to the virtues we have chosen to develop > within ourselves. > > Nothing bad will happen. > > The point is that if we commit to such a path, to virtue, chastity > God's law, any one of us, good things will happen. Not today, not > tomorrow, but in the long run, God has promised those confirmations > and rewards for His faithful. > > Making a thing legal or illegal will not solve any problem. Personal > commitment and rational endeavor can help any problem. > > Wearing seatbelts is the law. But if we had zero tolerance for those > who broke the law, and mandatory prison terms for violators, we would > have dead cops from those who could not abide the law, and could not > go back to prison. The law sounds good, but its unintended effects > might be catastrophic. > > Our prisons are filled with addicts. Is that the best way to handle > them? > > The worst that could happen from Paul drinking alcohol is that he > might get arrested, and he might waste his life. One choice is > society's, the other is Paul's. > > --Kent > > > > On Sep 30, 11:46 am, Douglas McAdam > wrote: >> On Sep 29, 2008, at 7:32 PM, PaulHammond wrote: >> >>> Besides the fact that I personally like a drop or two of whiskey, >>> and >>> a pint or two of beer from time to time. >> >> People can say this to just about anything they want to enjoy. We >> alway rationalize our likes and dislikes. >> No offense Paul but as a person who deals with addictions and >> rehabilitation in a County Jail I hear this kind of sentiment a lot >> from citizens with whom I often discuss problems of crime which are >> 70% related to alcohol and drugs. I think the evidence in society >> speaks for itself in that more problems than good are caused by the > >> use of these chemicals. >> >> What maybe we need to think about is making decisions based on proper >> knowledge and information not just because we like the feeling of >> something. >> >> I believe in God and I believe He sent us Baha'u'llah and Baha'u'llah >> has issued a law that we avoid alcohol unless prescribed by a >> Physician. So I obey and I strongly believe that if more people >> would > >> do this we would not be having so many problems. Since one of our >> Teachings is the harmony of science and religion then we need to take >> into consideration there must be a good reason scientifically as well >> as spiritually and socially to avoid alcohol. >> >> Even if I was not a Baha'i, because of the problems I see with these >> chemicals, I would be careful about casting any dollar votes towards >> their continuance and so I try to avoid even restaurants that serve >> alcohol. Along this line I'm wondering if our problems today with >> making alcohol legal are worse or better than when it was not legal. >> >> regards, >> doug > > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 1 19:08:11 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA9C84B0AB1 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 19:08:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZeugnVmsZv+S for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 19:08:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 3B6064B0AB3; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 19:08:11 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 18:08:34 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 18:57:17 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=FzFNZTi+ewFTZ7Pwc3GRppMevE1Irx9QKr49S8vgIeDN94z0soJTvd1F4xUb6hCgkpLU28TC1r9kR9QddeJ3JQxVbDzW3wcnN182MbyLjP0o8w438OyNXywbxC6J1triagbh6aH91FYeKw9qj8s50ZfiWpgJ38dBlJgBFsEcNJw= ; X-YMail-OSG: eP8V.kgVM1l02x9jeappv6GK9R5zh3_kqZziL_JqKUYbdDfmjfPIvsmAqi0Fd9QcwOsNL.08MpTImibdMyYglyt8PqMpOxmxAMrP.MyhgnZpxUL2X702SDnU0L2m96xBA8FGCeQQsPREx74nTWB2t0AC5hxQ2YmXfYQsikqXQeutJj5t8w-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 18:57:06 -0400 References: X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KlAd9-0006gc-HE X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-GKPT2ETAnIwkpl5yWSGykYZEZYOFo6AsXGhP8qTaNy4LVIoScwMJxp2vQ/ajXVfC/LZ/A5tPK25vufH!0USl0KEMPe2qThyoMfBRZxmJjnfmUrmCucAeS58XLpwDkkXlRdxEuSWF+r7YfTUN/Z9d+M6EGw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25374 If Baha'u'llah used "He" when revealing in Arabic, then He would mean the same thing in Persian if there was a gender equivalent wouldn't He? Why didn't He say "She" in Arabic? doug On Oct 1, 2008, at 12:10 PM, Susan wrote: > On Sep 29, 10:44 pm, Sizwe Cawe wrote: >> Dear Mr McAdam >> ng God as "He" (or "She") seems to be a quirk of Indo-Germanic >> language > s. > > Not really. Persian is an Indo-European language, yet it has no > gender. Semitic languages like Arabic, however, require them. English > (a Germanic language) requires less gender identification than Romance > languages like Spanish. > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 1 19:08:20 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0CF74B0AB3 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 19:08:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xQahg6Z+n61a for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 19:08:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 7AF7D4B0ABD; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 19:08:19 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 18:08:46 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 18:59:37 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=x6i+vr2+2WEPFYHC+WWOmhOmmJnYXptlf5TxxDcTwiyXEvrXIKu+e/OQZJELXja5MoHmb0RD0A7CDNwmBNQQ8H6Zf0MSfbq88Ef9mqPxYmF+115zz8SSi3z+10clfnuOL9/3MJ3GKAwFZGs/MaMAqB55LQ0kbcdgme6Ht764cLg= ; X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Please let us teach the Faith in Israel Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 18:59:26 -0400 References: X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KlAfP-0006n3-1e X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-Sz7lstqFrih44L7g7MJNTEESPWUkbyvu+IO6YtYE8aB8piWQQZYx+bY9d715Xldh2DYGst/XTJibrV1!bgIEeUmog7xI8T0KpHzU9SmFTZJYqF8diWpkx4QheRJFHsXROBizV0TniWxr/HmE7I3UlMVuyg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25375 I agree Albert and yet I must ask what do they (House) mean by "teaching"? I think they mean "verbalizing" for the House would surely not want us to not live the life of a Baha'i. regards, doug On Oct 1, 2008, at 10:59 AM, ajv wrote: > On Sep 23, 11:25 am, josephratz.r...@gmail.com wrote: >> Dear Friends >> See this blog - its regarding converting Jews to our faith. It is >> very >> interesting >> >> http://jewbahais.blogspot.com > > Unless the Universal House of Justice approves, we are doing harm to > the Faith by proceeding on our own. And thus I am strongly opposed to > teaching the Jewish people in Israel. > > Regards, > > Albert > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 1 19:28:57 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 028944B0AC7 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 19:28:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SS6+zl4ae3nk for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 19:28:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 81D644B0ACB; Wed, 1 Oct 2008 19:28:56 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 18:29:27 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 19:22:54 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=q5vwocDBnblOihq1Npv3xNeBVExVtY0udWddCGCNmaIwUXjLCif2SI3NgazUVsykcGbDSZvMqND12s2v2T6Z+Bh3GWJqXzJtHlWEA+ndrWh/N18gvc42mcKC9QKpd6ZMNB+cGWC6mzYTyc5od/3Ki0qOYkvP04M+q1u/zg7KnEc= ; X-YMail-OSG: OI77CvoVM1lJgvExd43_k_wEoHMvXa89T7G4Ra5N5LGIdJF3i5mUX8qsBWH7Beoq7hvhgavXulp9x33CE1k.9irGfdGmTV2otqP7nv9ZW0RrohXOutAZeS2hkA7u8iveDY2PCCcIMQN8x_6bng9KwJTxUjSXpIU.xH4lOaCUDyIBU8yCUQ-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 19:22:43 -0400 References: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> <4N6dnR98hJk6WkPVnZ2dnUVZ_hudnZ2d@giganews.com> <6N-dnaWo7JoDV0PVnZ2dnUVZ_j6dnZ2d@giganews.com> X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KlB1w-0000GA-K5 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: <75WdnZnUjs9KmnnVnZ2dnUVZ_g6dnZ2d@giganews.com> X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-4EeRKgqZfzNQi+3b+PUOObN7LJEBkCkWGdWt8be/gIFWsZXB9GBlP9LmPD8pcZAn08BROBwvZ8aPNkR!uc+RFddUPHvGmtwntbYruM08yAlleb+8Pm7oDCsFRbr+2Rg6AjpFsw6igc6NFQSAYMhBExqyLw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25376 Hi Susan- You said it was the translators choice. However the fact is that Baha'u'llah chose the word "He" from the Arabic and thus the translator would have no choice but to agree with Him would he/she? regards, doug On Oct 1, 2008, at 12:03 PM, Susan wrote: > On Sep 27, 7:26 pm, compx2 wrote: >> Not that it makes a difference, since you agree God is not limited by >> gender, but the words Baha'u'llah used in Persian and Arabic were >> translated as "He" by Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of >> Justice. > > Personal pronouns in Arabic, like English require gender so when > Baha'u'llah was writing in Arabic He called God "He." Not so in > Persian which has no gender. Then it is the translator's choice. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Thu Oct 2 10:34:35 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44E8D4B0AED for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 10:34:35 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h8E2o6CPkY84 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 10:34:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 6107D4B0A20; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 10:34:34 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 09:35:07 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 06:35:05 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org X-Authentication-Warning: serv4.gc.ams.giganews.com: news set sender to poster@giganews.com using -f From: "Finnegan's Wake" References: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-0uu9aEnuRrcvbkX4fQHystNhxmp2/OagNW630U/y5Lkds0rkOXJK7Mzv5yH2OIOvE3I5YvAyRggOVoU!VObp9s4dzscOQ5saRzEOMhiN8b4H184pmzCRu0fYMQfNNrv0/Tp66/HdKv5PfXVtE26d0jVf9w== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25377 talk.religion.bahai:118380 alt.religion.bahai:21090 wrote in message news:cuidnU4zc8A6PX_VnZ2dnUVZ_tPinZ2d@giganews.com... >But, you propose this solution to everyone - which sounds like a >sledgehammer to crack a nut to me. >Besides the fact that I personally like a drop or two of whiskey, and >a pint or two of beer from time to time. >Your puritanism is not an appealing solution, imo. Label it as unappealing, that is your prerogative. But you just conceded that it is a solution all the same. Which is a far cry from Tims original position. And appealing or not, the original premise that Baha'u'llah prescribed a course of action that is somehow harmful is negated by your own concession and the facts that be. FW writes: - You seem to assume that everybody who drinks alcohol is addicted to the stuff, cannot live without it and is thereby morally decrepit. That's not an uncommon sentiment among the killjoys and those who have a morbid fear of the devil's buttermilk. The man who can take or leave his drink has considerably more intestitinal fortitude and moral sway than those who, never having tasted a drop of the pure, sanctimoniously sit back, preening their own virtues whist, inwardly, aware that they are chicken-shit feared of succumbing to conviviality. I drink alcohol from time to time. My brain is not addled and I'm not addicted to the stuff. Fact is that I enjoy it and that it does me a power of good as well as contributing to longevity - a matter commented upon to me, many years ago, by a guy in the life assurance business who said that insurance companies prefer moderate regular drinkers to the tee-totallers as they live longer. Let us also not forget the social aspects of the demon drink - I posted, elsewhere, a link to a video of the Chieftains and friends playing at a pub in Westport. I can assure you that the black liquid in the glasses on the tables is not lemonade; that the playing of music in pubs is an inherent part of the island's culture and that, therefore the fiddler is well worth his dram. One of the players BTW is the local Church of Ireland rector - you can spot the dog collar. Here's the link again: - http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rxgQGJ8vKlQ&feature=related Do note that these are among Ireland's and therefore the world's finest musicians - could it possibly be that the "black liquidation with the froth on top" actually has a positive cultural and social input, if not a spiritual one. The founder of your faith in all likelihood never tasted a drop of the crather and therefore spoke of that with which he was entirely unacquainted ... whereas a wise man once observed that music was the solace of the soul. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Thu Oct 2 10:35:47 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7FEB4B0A59 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 10:35:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kl9R09aRtDJ0 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 10:35:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 65EC24B0AED; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 10:35:46 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 09:35:59 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 08:03:59 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 05:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.2.209; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KlMuM-0005Re-VM X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-1sTeOXZkEfo/Q6zMIzdrKfkc/KvvUt25VNy7zZqu/ffTPkFZOAb88m8v8MhqZgjrV4n77ETsoM0ou2S!vt4A3npW9JOhZKQuH0oQj3fRprklYBvl0+nuBQrOrvfmFVZJ6ZyOG9oQVcnWhUZ9BDw7ujUwoA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25378 Hi Doug, There is no conflict within what I said. Nothing bad will happen if we commit morally neutral actions, like an occassional drink as Paul said he liked to do. I am sure Paul will admit that he does not drink in order to aid humanity, he does it because he wants to, and I submit that he should, he has a right, and no Baha'i should criticize or hold him in lesser esteem for his choice. Just because Baha'is have taken a vow to a higher standard does not mean that bad things will happen to those who don't take such a vow. When we fulfil Baha'u'llah's teachings to change our lives, to act on the Teachings, to live the life prescribed in the Writings, to be the Baha'i that 'Abdu'l-Baha asks us to be, repeatedly, we are promised rewards, confirmations, scattering angels, and much more. On the other hand, those who decide not to take the vows we have taken, and those who do not cut their hair as prescribed in the Aqdas, are not promised eternal damnation or a horrible, conflicted life. You seem to be proscribing a future Baha'i society where Baha'is will tell Paul he can't drink, and I don't think that will or should happen. I would hope that those who want to better their lives through the spirit of God would do so without being forced to by code of law. And that those who have taken that spiritual mantle would not try to force on others behavior they have voluntarily chosen for themselves. You: " ... why did God gives us those laws?" So we would voluntarily follow them, and understand through our own eyes the spiritual value of the deeds we perform. Otherwise we have God as judge and the Baha'i Faith as police force, and no one investigating for themselves. If a person chooses to lie to his or her mother, perhaps that person should be marked for life, put in prison, whether that person is 50 or 5 years old, but I don't think so. Certainly we should not lie, but the truth is, we cannot and therefore should not try to force everyone to be truthful all the time. Such is impossible, and therefore futile, so why do it? A law won't help whether it comes from society or God. We still choose for ourselves. If there are consequences for our lying they should come from society. But if there are benefits for not lying they should come from our own, personal, spiritual, internal systems of reinforcement, self knowledge, respect, virtue and nobility. > Not only will Paul waste his life but it will hurt society by losing > his capacity or if a family man his family will suffer. I doubt seriously if you meant to say that. But if you did, well, I would prefer to spend time with the likes of Paul than the likes of those who would uphold a statement like you make above. I will cast my lot (am I gambling? Will I be arrested by the Baha'i Police, or will my life now go to heck?) with those who willingly choose their life and life style than with those who would force others to change through laws or ridicule or overgeneralization and exaggeration. Paul is just fine in my opinion, and I bristle at the suggestion that his occassional drink makes him a less than fine human being. However a holier than thou attitude on the part of people denouncing Paul's behavior would indicate a problem of character, in my considered opinion. --Kent On Oct 1, 6:50=A0pm, Douglas McAdam wrote: > Kent, I am lost when trying to understand your opinion here. > You say nothing bad will happen if we don't make a moral commitment to =A0 > the virtues we have chosen to develop and then later you said good =A0 > things will happen, not today, not tomorrow but in the long run . =A0 If =A0 > a person choses today t be honest isn't that better than being =A0 > dishonest? =A0If he or she choses not to do drugs and alcohol, isn't =A0 > that going to be better than destroying ones brain and body? > > I agree that making things legal or illegal will not solve the problem =A0 > but yet when we become conscious of God's Law and strive to obey it =A0 > will make things better won't it? =A0If not then why did God gives us =A0 > those laws? > > I agree that prison is not the answer. =A0However the purpose of jails =A0 > and prisons is to protect the society. =A0Does it protect society to =A0 > allow a criminal to be released because he has money and can provide =A0 > bail? =A0Does it protect society to incarcerate a lawbreaker and not =A0 > provide proper detox, rehab, re-entry and aftercare? > > Not only will Paul waste his life but it will hurt society by losing =A0 > his capacity or if a family man his family will suffer. =A0From my =A0 > perspective and experience there is nothing good about using alcohol =A0 > and drugs. =A0I'm old enough to recall how I rationalized their use and =A0 > then experienced addiction and I also saw many people claim they are =A0 > social drinkers, only drinking once in a while but then something =A0 > would happen, they became in need of increased amounts and something =A0 > bad would happen to them to cause them to use more and more. > > regards, > doug > > On Oct 1, 2008, at 8:01 AM, compx2 wrote: > > > > > Hi Doug, > > > Devout Muslims drink alcohol. =A0My wife grew up Baha'i, and often as a > > youth she would explain sex before marriage was against her religion. > > That's okay, its against every religion. =A0The ones who rationalize ar e > > those of us who say that something bad will happen if we don't make a > > personal moral commitment to the virtues we have chosen to develop > > within ourselves. > > > Nothing bad will happen. > > > The point is that if we commit to such a path, to virtue, chastity > > God's law, any one of us, good things will happen. =A0Not today, not > > tomorrow, but in the long run, God has promised those confirmations > > and rewards for His faithful. > > > Making a thing legal or illegal will not solve any problem. =A0Personal > > commitment and rational endeavor can help any problem. > > > Wearing seatbelts is the law. =A0But if we had zero tolerance for those > > who broke the law, and mandatory prison terms for violators, we would > > have dead cops from those who could not abide the law, and could not > > go back to prison. =A0The law sounds good, but its unintended effects > > might be catastrophic. > > > Our prisons are filled with addicts. =A0Is that the best way to handle > > them? > > > The worst that could happen from Paul drinking alcohol is that he > > might get arrested, and he might waste his life. =A0One choice is > > society's, the other is Paul's. > > > --Kent > > > On Sep 30, 11:46 am, Douglas McAdam > > wrote: > >> On Sep 29, 2008, at 7:32 PM, PaulHammond wrote: > > >>> Besides the fact that I personally like a drop or two of whiskey, =A0 > >>> and > >>> a pint or two of beer from time to time. > > >> People can say this to just about anything they want to enjoy. =A0We > >> alway rationalize our likes and dislikes. > >> No offense Paul but as a person who deals with addictions and > >> rehabilitation in a County Jail I hear this kind of sentiment a lot > >> from citizens with whom I often discuss problems of crime which are > >> 70% related to alcohol and drugs. I think the evidence in society > >> speaks for itself in that more problems than good =A0are caused by the > > >> use of these chemicals. > > >> What maybe we need to think about is making decisions based on proper > >> knowledge and information not just because we like the feeling of > >> something. > > >> I believe in God and I believe He sent us Baha'u'llah and Baha'u'llah > >> has issued a law that we avoid alcohol unless prescribed by a > >> Physician. =A0So I obey and I strongly believe that if more people =A0 > >> would > > >> do this we would not be having so many problems. =A0 Since one of our > >> Teachings is the harmony of science and religion then we need to take > >> into consideration there must be a good reason scientifically as well > >> as spiritually and socially to avoid alcohol. > > >> Even if I was not a Baha'i, because of the problems I see with these > >> chemicals, I would be careful about casting any dollar votes towards > >> their continuance and so I try to avoid even restaurants that serve > >> alcohol. =A0Along this line I'm wondering if our problems today with > >> making alcohol legal are worse or better than when it was not legal. > > >> regards, > >> doug- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Thu Oct 2 16:27:09 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1AFC4B0AFD for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 16:27:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OTwh-eg2NlUO for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 16:27:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 9A5F54B0B01; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 16:27:08 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 15:27:08 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 11:42:35 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=z8Du2Q49qKRjuG7YJow7QENYhfCmxTh4LHwLor8EuOF6fS1FWjmdrLP973nJqK0pHQQc6Y/5vjF3L73ZvzoQf4IzxOK69C7F5ubGIfLAd2vSO4Eh5a/HvLRs/BieA11HkVwu2FkAycFFu0vLsUGmT26V8FRtMu8AZsCFVHl5sQI= ; X-YMail-OSG: a4yP2nEVM1kL_mjFceAxxDVJ_N6BnAxamoWUUcKel1nEj3gAf_yu7xqxS.MXl0KCsp6uuZ9Q3Hwa.C9zwfXaSOHp2JmhfbUfTIo6x5agBpA9RL5R6cpAZYlFsK6Oz4Dvsbvyg1GcSMz.CCqG4cZHGtje X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 11:42:18 -0400 References: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-L0XgKdL2cErjgjvbuXTv2YQnqybtGm/M9bZwrIDj7Dm4oijXOsPcJYRjrs5fH7o4JJm+W+D6sMWYh23!G480mnN12CsucF6pUipawDZz1+qwtqPXrEF0G+Te3ViIhZXlwxG12fCo1RI+58zWKCq9+uHCyQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25379 On Oct 2, 2008, at 8:02 AM, compx2 wrote: > Hi Doug, > > There is no conflict within what I said. > > Nothing bad will happen if we commit morally neutral actions, like an > occassional drink as Paul said he liked to do. I am sure Paul will > admit that he does not drink in order to aid humanity, he does it > because he wants to, and I submit that he should, he has a right, and > no Baha'i should criticize or hold him in lesser esteem for his > choice. Kent- First of all I am not criticizing Paul or anyone else I am only sharing what I understand to be what our Writings say about laws from God. Don't forget the Writings also tell us there is a reward and punishment contained in these laws whether we believe in them or not. > > > Just because Baha'is have taken a vow to a higher standard does not > mean that bad things will happen to those who don't take such a vow. I think society's present materialistic condition is proof enough of what happens when God's Laws are not adhered to. Have you not read of the Guardian's analysis of the conditions in America? > > > When we fulfil Baha'u'llah's teachings to change our lives, to act on > the Teachings, to live the life prescribed in the Writings, to be the > Baha'i that 'Abdu'l-Baha asks us to be, repeatedly, we are promised > rewards, confirmations, scattering angels, and much more. Yes. > > > On the other hand, those who decide not to take the vows we have > taken, and those who do not cut their hair as prescribed in the Aqdas, > are not promised eternal damnation or a horrible, conflicted life. Nobody is talking about eternal damnation Kent. Do you recall the twin duties imposed on mankind? Think of it this way. God has forbidden theft. But there are people who commit thievery. Their acts cause them to be incarcerated, having to go to Court, maybe prison, etc. That is a cost to taxpayers. So we all suffer from someone breaking God's Laws whether we believe in them or not. > > > You seem to be proscribing a future Baha'i society where Baha'is will > tell Paul he can't drink, and I don't think that will or should > happen. I would hope that those who want to better their lives > through the spirit of God would do so without being forced to by code > of law. And that those who have taken that spiritual mantle would not > try to force on others behavior they have voluntarily chosen for > themselves. No I know of no such thing Kent. I know of only what the Writings say about the future, that we are establishing God's Kingdom on Earth in fulfillment of the promise of Jesus the Christ and in our Teachings it says that no Baha'i has the right to judge others. > > > You: " ... why did God gives us those laws?" > > So we would voluntarily follow them, and understand through our own > eyes the spiritual value of the deeds we perform. Otherwise we have > God as judge and the Baha'i Faith as police force, and no one > investigating for themselves. Or is it because God knows what we need for our spiritual development and so He gives us Laws to follow? We need love and unity in the world and God gives us all the directions we need. We ourselves make rules in various ways to insure order and organization. > > If a person chooses to lie to his or her mother, perhaps that person > should be marked for life, put in prison, whether that person is 50 or > 5 years old, but I don't think so. Certainly we should not lie, but > the truth is, we cannot and therefore should not try to force everyone > to be truthful all the time. Such is impossible, and therefore > futile, so why do it? Who is talking about forcing everyone to be truthful? I'm not and I don't know of any Baha'i who does this. Our parents gave us rules and one was to not lie and if we did we were punished to help us get back on track. > > > A law won't help whether it comes from society or God. We still > choose for ourselves. If there are consequences for our lying they > should come from society. But if there are benefits for not lying > they should come from our own, personal, spiritual, internal systems > of reinforcement, self knowledge, respect, virtue and nobility. Then why have laws if they won't be of help? The consequences from lying can come from parents, from an organization that expects us to be truthful, but in reality it all comes from God who gave us laws in which reward and punishment are inherent. > >> Not only will Paul waste his life but it will hurt society by losing >> his capacity or if a family man his family will suffer. > > I doubt seriously if you meant to say that. But if you did, well, I > would prefer to spend time with the likes of Paul than the likes of > those who would uphold a statement like you make above. I will cast > my lot (am I gambling? Will I be arrested by the Baha'i Police, or > will my life now go to heck?) with those who willingly choose their > life and life style than with those who would force others to change > through laws or ridicule or overgeneralization and exaggeration. Please look at my comments in context. I am speaking of addictions. Paul said he likes to drink once in a while and is putting up a sort of rationalization for this habit, a rationalization I used myself when drinking and using drugs 40 yrs ago and what I constantly here from many, many people and in my view they are casting votes, dollar votes too for the entire alcohol industry and the consequences of addiction and the cost to society which in turn come back to hurt them in many ways. God did not say it was OK to drink or use drugs once in a while or socially, He forbid it except under a doctor's prescription. We can readily see the punishment inflicted on society, on all of us for disobedience. We are one family and so I will do what I can to help family members. Do you tell your children it is OK if they wish to take a drink or smoke some crack once in a while? > > > Paul is just fine in my opinion, and I bristle at the suggestion that > his occassional drink makes him a less than fine human being. However > a holier than thou attitude on the part of people denouncing Paul's > behavior would indicate a problem of character, in my considered > opinion. > I think he is fine too but nobody is saying he is less than a fine human being. We are simply discussing alcohol and its harmful effects on society because by and large society is not obeying God's Laws. Please don't suggest such things for that is not my intention at all and for sure I know of no Baha'i who would say such a thing. We need to separate behavior from the human being and my belief is that we are all living souls in seed form, striving as best we can to live a good life. But laws are laws and disrespect and disobedience to them have consequences that hurt us all which is why I care to help my close family and the family of humankind. doug > --Kent > > On Oct 1, 6:50 pm, Douglas McAdam wrote: >> Kent, I am lost when trying to understand your opinion here. >> You say nothing bad will happen if we don't make a moral commitment >> to > >> the virtues we have chosen to develop and then later you said good >> things will happen, not today, not tomorrow but in the long run . >> If > >> a person choses today t be honest isn't that better than being >> dishonest? If he or she choses not to do drugs and alcohol, isn't >> that going to be better than destroying ones brain and body? >> >> I agree that making things legal or illegal will not solve the >> problem > >> but yet when we become conscious of God's Law and strive to obey it >> will make things better won't it? If not then why did God gives us >> those laws? >> >> I agree that prison is not the answer. However the purpose of jails > >> and prisons is to protect the society. Does it protect society to >> allow a criminal to be released because he has money and can provide >> bail? Does it protect society to incarcerate a lawbreaker and not >> provide proper detox, rehab, re-entry and aftercare? >> >> Not only will Paul waste his life but it will hurt society by losing >> his capacity or if a family man his family will suffer. From my >> perspective and experience there is nothing good about using alcohol >> and drugs. I'm old enough to recall how I rationalized their use and > >> then experienced addiction and I also saw many people claim they are >> social drinkers, only drinking once in a while but then something >> would happen, they became in need of increased amounts and something >> bad would happen to them to cause them to use more and more. >> >> regards, >> doug >> >> On Oct 1, 2008, at 8:01 AM, compx2 wrote: >>> them? >> >>> The worst that could happen from Paul drinking alcohol is that he >>> might get arrested, and he might waste his life. One choice is >>> society's, the other is Paul's. >> >>> --Kent >> >>> On Sep 30, 11:46 am, Douglas McAdam >>> wrote: >>>> On Sep 29, 2008, at 7:32 PM, PaulHammond wrote: >> >>>>> Besides the fact that I personally like a drop or two of whiskey, >>>>> and >>>>> a pint or two of beer from time to time. >> >>>> People can say this to just about anything they want to enjoy. We >>>> alway rationalize our likes and dislikes. >>>> No offense Paul but as a person who deals with addictions and >>>> rehabilitation in a County Jail I hear this kind of sentiment a lot >>>> from citizens with whom I often discuss problems of crime which are >>>> 70% related to alcohol and drugs. I think the evidence in society >>>> speaks for itself in that more problems than good are caused by >>>> the >> >>>> use of these chemicals. >> >>>> What maybe we need to think about is making decisions based on >>>> proper >>>> knowledge and information not just because we like the feeling of >>>> something. >> >>>> I believe in God and I believe He sent us Baha'u'llah and >>>> Baha'u'llah >>>> has issued a law that we avoid alcohol unless prescribed by a >>>> Physician. So I obey and I strongly believe that if more people >>>> would >> >>>> do this we would not be having so many problems. Since one of our >>>> Teachings is the harmony of science and religion then we need to >>>> take >>>> into consideration there must be a good reason scientifically as >>>> well >>>> as spiritually and socially to avoid alcohol. >> >>>> Even if I was not a Baha'i, because of the problems I see with >>>> these >>>> chemicals, I would be careful about casting any dollar votes >>>> towards >>>> their continuance and so I try to avoid even restaurants that serve >>>> alcohol. Along this line I'm wondering if our problems today with >>>> making alcohol legal are worse or better than when it was not >>>> legal. >> >>>> regards, >>>> doug- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Thu Oct 2 16:27:28 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23ED84B0B01 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 16:27:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 63VORGxWGnAk for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 16:27:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 602424B0B03; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 16:27:27 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? From: PaulHammond Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 13:20:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: References: Organization: http://groups.google.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai X-Trace: sv3-0QuwQSTL/K8fM+Ip2S9eCZclZZqRA960M5+6vn/ZGySWZSGt4d7AQjg84DcOGtJoN+OjscY/PvKuSwp!0LPavDe4T1J0ucAwejH17sl50EsuizAJsfyu9fGGInJzhxgCKV0YKtSpfrLROGvz4ipH5NcErA== NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 15:27:39 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 16:21:19 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com; posting-host=81.109.65.74; posting-account=xYgNZAkAAAAX2Gy_ALiaitufV0ujYcJc User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KlUfh-0003Ha-2C X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.598, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60, WHOIS_NETSOLPR 0.00) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 X-Original-Bytes: 5986 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25380 talk.religion.bahai:118384 alt.religion.bahai:21091 Finnegan's Wake wrote: > wrote in message > news:cuidnU4zc8A6PX_VnZ2dnUVZ_tPinZ2d@giganews.com... > > >But, you propose this solution to everyone - which sounds like a > >sledgehammer to crack a nut to me. > >Besides the fact that I personally like a drop or two of whiskey, and > >a pint or two of beer from time to time. > >Your puritanism is not an appealing solution, imo. > > Label it as unappealing, that is your prerogative. But you just > conceded that it is a solution all the same. Which is a far cry from > Tims original position. > > And appealing or not, the original premise that Baha'u'llah prescribed > a course of action that is somehow harmful is negated by your own > concession and the facts that be. > Point of information - these words are my words, Dermod. Something seems to have gone a bit off with the attribution here. I wasn't following the conversation that closely earlier, but from what I gather, Tim was talking about how it's not really right to blame the substance for all the problems that humans have in dealing with it, while Mike was pushing the "total abstinence is the only way to make sure that no-one ever succumbs to alcoholism" line. I'm not sure if that's because Mike is Baha'i. > FW writes: - > > You seem to assume that everybody who drinks alcohol is addicted to the > stuff, cannot live without it and is thereby morally decrepit. That's not > an uncommon sentiment among the killjoys and those who have a morbid fear of > the devil's buttermilk. The man who can take or leave his drink has > considerably more intestitinal fortitude and moral sway than those who, > never having tasted a drop of the pure, sanctimoniously sit back, preening > their own virtues whist, inwardly, aware that they are chicken-shit feared > of succumbing to conviviality. > > I drink alcohol from time to time. My brain is not addled and I'm not > addicted to the stuff. Fact is that I enjoy it and that it does me a power > of good as well as contributing to longevity - a matter commented upon to > me, many years ago, by a guy in the life assurance business who said that > insurance companies prefer moderate regular drinkers to the tee-totallers as > they live longer. > > Let us also not forget the social aspects of the demon drink - I posted, > elsewhere, a link to a video of the Chieftains and friends playing at a pub > in Westport. I can assure you that the black liquid in the glasses on the > tables is not lemonade; that the playing of music in pubs is an inherent > part of the island's culture and that, therefore the fiddler is well worth > his dram. One of the players BTW is the local Church of Ireland rector - > you can spot the dog collar. Here's the link again: - > > http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rxgQGJ8vKlQ&feature=related > > Do note that these are among Ireland's and therefore the world's finest > musicians - could it possibly be that the "black liquidation with the froth > on top" actually has a positive cultural and social input, if not a > spiritual one. The founder of your faith in all likelihood never tasted a > drop of the crather and therefore spoke of that with which he was entirely > unacquainted ... whereas a wise man once observed that music was the solace > of the soul. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Thu Oct 2 16:43:20 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 948314B0B0A for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 16:43:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0J+PQOL5CBbw for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 16:43:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 4BFC24B0B08; Thu, 2 Oct 2008 16:43:19 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 15:43:43 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 16:38:53 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: PaulHammond Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 13:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com; posting-host=81.109.65.74; posting-account=xYgNZAkAAAAX2Gy_ALiaitufV0ujYcJc User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KlUwj-0004jS-Hn X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: <2cCdnTYfCffir3jVnZ2dnUVZ_rXinZ2d@giganews.com> X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-zgAfDcgzLtjS2MP9BwvH26vxLqHp46VG+rEv8D9xgDGVQF996hcGjGUiUdtEyrlLPdXkPxFrdOYjVHy!125SBBZXvKKsLLNmbcFpSb4gGGiqXi2xs/p4FEbeHnHu3Nir7ZEbnzKC9zUzEoIGZLvnmnfyuw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25381 talk.religion.bahai:118387 alt.religion.bahai:21093 On 30 Sep, 22:11, mikera...@yahoo.com wrote: > >But, you propose this solution to everyone - which sounds like a > >sledgehammer to crack a nut to me. > >Besides the fact that I personally like a drop or two of whiskey, and > >a pint or two of beer from time to time. > >Your puritanism is not an appealing solution, imo. > > =A0Label it as unappealing, that is your prerogative. But you just > conceded that it is a solution all the same. Which is a far cry from > Tims original position. > > And appealing or not, the original premise that Baha'u'llah prescribed > a course of action that is somehow harmful is negated by your own > concession and the facts that be. > > >Are you trying to suggest that because I seem to have understood what > >Tim was getting at, while you went off at a tangent assuming that > >because Tim hadn't mentioned the fact that AIDS also affects poor > >people it meant that he was unaware of the large number of deaths due > >to AIDS in Africa, and foaming at the mouth about it too, that it > >makes ME paranoid? > > =A0Actually yes. It's paranoid to assume or defend a person making the > assumption: > Er - no. My ability to understand Tim's post comes from my superior reading ability, and my anger comes from the fact that you're trying to put words in his mouth. Calling me paranoid just sounds like a gratuitous insult to me. > > that malaria does NOT affect the rich, which is a reason why > >the western press doesn't talk about it much. > > Here's what was originally stated: > > >What about malaria? The only reason AIDS gets more press is because it > >affects the rich and famous while malaria does not > > =A0By the way, it was you who introduced the term, "Western press". Now > that we're talking paranoia, why should it matter whether they're > western or eastern press? > We're only talking paranoia because you thought it was a good idea to start calling me names! > He's at least unaware that the media is not pandering to the rich by > publicizing it. > > =A0Doesn't using a phrase like, "foaming at the mouth" seem to > personalize things a bit? Actually my Jaw is on the floor and here is > why: > > >I don't know what the "CDC" is, by the way. > > Center for Disease control. Sorry. Your jaw is on the flaw because I don't happen to know the acronym of an organisation you mentioned? I'll explain it on your terms: > Your sarcasm is noted. > =A0That's the government organization where the western press go to get > their info on AIDs to publicize it for the rich people who want to > exploit the africans by making money off of their all too expensive > malaria vaccines. > > I'm just paraphrasing, isn't this what was said? > No - you are still being sarcastic. > >Yet some of the rich are rich only because the malaria vaccine is too ex pe > > nsive for the 2.7 >million people killed by malaria every year (Bremen et .. > al. 2001). > > By virtue of your silence on the matter and your vigilance with > respect to me I'll assume that you agree with him. > I haven't a clue what you mean by this. > "The Malaria Vaccine Initiative (MVI) was established by Program for > Appropriate Technology in Health (PATH) through a US$50 million seed > grant from the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. MVI seeks to > accelerate the development of promising malaria vaccines and ensure > their availability for the developing world. For further information > about MVI and PATH, visit the Web sites atwww.MalariaVaccine.organdwww.pa th.org." > > Is that the rich person you're talking about. Is that the person who > donated 50 million? He certainly must be making money off that > vaccine. Do a good deed and look at how people act?!? > Why are we talking about whether or not rich people make money out of making donations to malaria charities? > >> Even should this disease be contained at 1.5 million per year in > >> Africa, it an expectation that a major plague affecting us all could > >> emerge from this population of AIDS victims. > >I don't see this assertion in the abstract you quote. > > "AIDS-Related Opportunistic Infections :: epidemiology > > Przegl Epidemiol. 2008 ;62 (1):113-21 18536233 (P,S,G,E,B) > [Tuberculosis in Europe and Poland--new molecular families and new > resistance patterns] > > At present despite methods of fast recognition of the disease and > efficient antituberculosis drugs not only we cannot contain the > epidemic but we can see an increase in new cases of tuberculosis > including its drug resistant variety. Causes of aggravation of the > situation are varied and ought to be examined separately in case of > any particular region. One of the major ones are bad programmes of > fighting against the disease or their inadequate realization, ignoring > a problem of tuberculosis in developed countries, lack of money for > treatment in developing countries and coincidence with HIV virus. > " > > This is one citation of many, but it makes my point. HIV in poorer > countries serves as a breeding ground for TB and drug resistant TB > giving it a springboard from which to infect the entire population > (that's you, me and the rich people the western media are pandering > to), not just AIDs patients. > So by "major plague" you meant TB? Is it usual to call TB a "plague"? I notice that in answer to my saying that the assertion you made isn't backed up by the abstract you quoted, you have in facted quoted a different abstract. > >Erm - Prof Kalings of the international AIDS foundation doesn't seem > >to be panicking about AIDS here. So why are you? > > "The first postmodern pandemic: 25 years of HIV/ AIDS " > > =A0Maybe it has something to do with the word pandemic in title of the > paper? > I read the whole abstract and based my reaction on my understanding of that. I guess, even scientists like to have attention grabbing headlines - and I imagine that there is a scientific definition of "pandemic" that doesn't necessarily match the "Arrgh - we're all gonna DIE!" connotations of the popular understanding of the term. > Here's a Wiki quote: > > "A pandemic is an epidemic of infectious disease that spreads through > human populations across a large region; for instance a continent, or > even worldwide. > Yes - that was what I thought the word meant. I still say that on reading the abstract you provided, it doesn't seem to me that Prof. Kalings is panicking about this. > AIDS is now a pandemic.[4] In 2007, an estimated 33.2 million people > lived with the disease worldwide, and it killed an estimated 2.1 > million people, including 330,000 children.[5] Over three-quarters of > these deaths occurred in sub-Saharan Africa,[5] retarding economic > growth and destroying human capital.[6] > > According to the World Health Organization (WHO), a pandemic can start > when three conditions have been met: > > the emergence of a disease new to the population. > the agent infects humans, causing serious illness. > the agent spreads easily and sustainably among humans" > Considering that the world contains 6 billion people, I'm still not panicking. > =A0Am I teaching a C.E. course now? (That's continuing education) Were you this sarcastic to your students? > I > think my point was made three postings back, so I plan to drop this. > Well, thank you for a conversation that has more content than most of the ones I have at trb - but I was planning to drop this too. > Drink up if you must. Nobody will ever force you to be a Baha'i. Or if > you want to be Baha'i and still think drinking is to your benefit, > consult with your physician and make the prudent choice. > > Call us puritanical and in some areas I'll take it as a compliment. > But don't deceive yourself, no amount of intellectual discourse will > ever decide if Baha'u'llah is or isn't a divine person. > > "The story is told of a mystic knower, who went on a journey with a > learned grammarian as his companion. They came to the shore of the Sea > of Grandeur. The knower straightway flung himself into the waves, but > the grammarian stood lost in his reasonings, which were as words that > are written on water. The knower called out to him, "Why dost thou not > follow?" The grammarian answered, "O Brother, I dare not advance. I > must needs go back again." Then the knower cried, "Forget what thou > didst read in the books of Sibavayh and Qawlavayh, of Ibn-i-Hajib and > Ibn-i-Malik, [1] and cross the water." > [1 Famed writers on grammar and rhetoric.] =A052=A0 > > The death of self is needed here, not rhetoric: > > Be nothing, then, and walk upon the waves. [1]" > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 (Baha'u'llah, The Four Valleys, p. 51) From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Fri Oct 3 00:10:07 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B0EF4B0AC3 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 00:10:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ocixwEzVKnhM for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 00:10:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 5FE2A4B0ADA; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 00:10:06 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 23:10:29 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 19:34:55 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org X-Authentication-Warning: serv3.gc.ams.giganews.com: news set sender to poster@giganews.com using -f From: "Finnegan's Wake" References: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-qs0L/8OQSdp/1H2XgHvqZuUROjYYu5KPMlTXYN+1dxDvhbPaJxjXJnelX2GfBOgi/zZA+RX2OsglZom!zGDZgRsB5sXBZs819cLOKyQ1G8q89JcHo519bDXE6wZjkQEEmbhrrxZNSTqtGowGd1mXx3Y7lg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118395 alt.religion.bahai:21098 soc.religion.bahai:25382 "PaulHammond" wrote in message news:jNSdnV50q5oms3jVnZ2dnUVZ_jidnZ2d@giganews.com... > > > Finnegan's Wake wrote: > >> wrote in message >> news:cuidnU4zc8A6PX_VnZ2dnUVZ_tPinZ2d@giganews.com... >> >> >But, you propose this solution to everyone - which sounds like a >> >sledgehammer to crack a nut to me. >> >Besides the fact that I personally like a drop or two of whiskey, and >> >a pint or two of beer from time to time. >> >Your puritanism is not an appealing solution, imo. >> >> Label it as unappealing, that is your prerogative. But you just >> conceded that it is a solution all the same. Which is a far cry from >> Tims original position. >> >> And appealing or not, the original premise that Baha'u'llah prescribed >> a course of action that is somehow harmful is negated by your own >> concession and the facts that be. >> > > Point of information - these words are my words, Dermod. Something > seems to have gone a bit off with the attribution here. Like you, I wasn't following this thread too closely but these words - whoever wrote them struck a chord. Puritanism or Prohibition is not the solution to alcohol or other abuse. Why deprive others of the right to imbibe purely because some abuse it - on that premise you can ban everything from cars (driven too fast) to Ipods (high volumes damage hearing). I prefer to manage rather than avoid risk .. and since, like yourself, I'm partial to a drop of itself, I'll run the risk of becoming alcoholic. Having been acquainted with the pure for a few decades now, I reckon the risk is fairly low. > I wasn't following the conversation that closely earlier, but from > what I gather, Tim was talking about how it's not really right to > blame the substance for all the problems that humans have in dealing > with it, while Mike was pushing the "total abstinence is the only way > to make sure that no-one ever succumbs to alcoholism" line. I'm not > sure if that's because Mike is Baha'i. Tim is right ... no matter how good a thing is it can be abused and no matter how evil something appears to be it has a beneficial use somewhere. The substance is neutral - its benefit or abuse lies in the domain of the humans who use or abuse it. You can bet your credit crunch that Mikey is singing the party tune - I've heard it many times before from members of his party and their counterparts in Ireland, the Pioneer Total Abstinence Society. Though, as you probably have guessed, I've a liking for Irish Traditional Music, I avoid party tunes like the plague ... and, the Good Lord knows, we have an abundance of, usually atrocious, party tunes in this land. BTW if you watch the linked video to the end you'll see the Reverend Gentleman reach out for his glass of the black stuff ... nothing better to moisten the throttle after a fine tune or three. And if it's good enough for the Protestants sure it must be better for the rest of us. >> FW writes: - >> >> You seem to assume that everybody who drinks alcohol is addicted to the >> stuff, cannot live without it and is thereby morally decrepit. That's >> not >> an uncommon sentiment among the killjoys and those who have a morbid fear >> of >> the devil's buttermilk. The man who can take or leave his drink has >> considerably more intestitinal fortitude and moral sway than those who, >> never having tasted a drop of the pure, sanctimoniously sit back, >> preening >> their own virtues whist, inwardly, aware that they are chicken-shit >> feared >> of succumbing to conviviality. >> >> I drink alcohol from time to time. My brain is not addled and I'm not >> addicted to the stuff. Fact is that I enjoy it and that it does me a >> power >> of good as well as contributing to longevity - a matter commented upon to >> me, many years ago, by a guy in the life assurance business who said that >> insurance companies prefer moderate regular drinkers to the tee-totallers >> as >> they live longer. >> >> Let us also not forget the social aspects of the demon drink - I posted, >> elsewhere, a link to a video of the Chieftains and friends playing at a >> pub >> in Westport. I can assure you that the black liquid in the glasses on >> the >> tables is not lemonade; that the playing of music in pubs is an inherent >> part of the island's culture and that, therefore the fiddler is well >> worth >> his dram. One of the players BTW is the local Church of Ireland rector - >> you can spot the dog collar. Here's the link again: - >> >> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rxgQGJ8vKlQ&feature=related >> >> Do note that these are among Ireland's and therefore the world's finest >> musicians - could it possibly be that the "black liquidation with the >> froth >> on top" actually has a positive cultural and social input, if not a >> spiritual one. The founder of your faith in all likelihood never tasted >> a >> drop of the crather and therefore spoke of that with which he was >> entirely >> unacquainted ... whereas a wise man once observed that music was the >> solace >> of the soul. > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Fri Oct 3 00:10:16 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 112C14B0AE9 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 00:10:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pkM3ngbMnszs for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 00:10:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 8C1864B0AEE; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 00:10:14 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 23:10:42 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 22:15:03 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 19:13:03 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: u28g2000hsc.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KlaC2-0006Gq-Gu X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-avtPUeR8C4ka8X2plQ7+aei93AvlooLqmpoTxDRH5H1B+rXzW3Zpb5+JDnDnDZXu+/mkEiMP4qEBaLK!R4K+ZOD/r8mA/F5LmNjWrXb69APetGvlgSUlJXz7gFsIqWTM55337VxkE/PHOdK4t//VTIiRsg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25383 Hi Doug, > Don't forget the Writings also tell us there is a reward and > punishment contained in these laws whether we believe in them or not. And what I said was there is no punishment in store for morally neutral behavior, like Paul's occassional drink, or hair length not in line with the proscription in the Aqdas. If you believe there is punishment in store for non-Baha'is, or for any who refuse to follow Baha'i laws, well, I differ. Actually, more. I am offended. My religion does not believe in such punishment, and it will take extraordinary tolerance, forebearance and grace to accept that those beliefs exist within my religion. I believe the Baha'i Faith is tolerance, acceptance and unity. Luckily I will accept your right to be wrong gracefully and not assert that your misunderstanding of universal Order will pe punished. It's fine, really. There is reward and punishment, but that does not mean that Paul's drinking will be punished. In fact, I would like to take this opportunity to offer a prayer on Paul's behalf, that he might truly enjoy his refreshments, and that those refreshments should revitalize Paul and re-enable him to renew his efforts toward those things Paul finds valuable. And it is my fervent prayer with all the potency of every Baha'i ideal that I command that Paul should not be punished for his refreshments. I pray that the punishments in store for Paul should rather find me instead. > I think society's present materialistic condition is proof enough of > what happens when God's Laws are not adhered to. Society's? How about yours and mine? Perhaps we should renounce our earthly belongings, donate our retirement funds to the poor? Perhaps society is being punished for our neglect? > Have you not read of > the Guardian's analysis of the conditions in America? "All we can reasonably venture to attempt is to strive to obtain a glimpse of the first streaks of the promised Dawn that must, in the fullness of time, chase away the gloom that has encircled humanity. All we can do is to point out, in their broadest outlines, what appear to us to be the guiding principles underlying the World Order of Bah=E1'u'll=E1h, as amplified and enunciated by 'Abdu'l-Bah=E1, the Center of His Covenant with all mankind and the appointed Interpreter and Expounder of His Word." (Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 34) I say let's chase away the gloom, and deny the punishments from God for anything other than intentionally hurting others. Rewards, on the other hand, are in store for anyone who sacrifices for others. > Who is talking about forcing everyone to be truthful? You talk about God the Punisher. Is it not a Baha'i law to be truthful? You were talking about all that. How could I have misread you so badly? That is exactly what I thought you were saying. > So we all suffer from > someone breaking God's Laws whether we believe in them or not. Does this mean we should not force people? We should just suck it up? All you liars out there are hurting everyone, but that's okay. We don't want to force you to stop. Right? I have a fundamentally different view. God is not the punisher, but in many cases religion is. I say religion is what religion does. To paraphrase a popular quote: good people will to good things, bad people will do bad things, but it takes religion to make good people do bad things. When we say that God is going to punish people for their choice of refreshment it becomes a short step to enforcing God's laws with self appointed, religiously motivated, police. I am for tolerance. If God made the law, let God enforce it, and pray that He is just. It would not be just to punish someone for an occassional alcoholic drink and more than any other morally neutral behavior, like vain hair care or flashy clothes. > Do you recall the > twin duties imposed on mankind? I recall twin duties of Baha'is. Please enlighten me. > Then why have laws if they won't be of help? I am the one arguing against the laws. Now you ask me why we have the things I don't want us to have. Because I am powerless to stop people like you who want useless, unenforceable laws. > Do you tell your children it is OK > if they wish to take a drink or smoke some crack once in a while? I taught my children by example, and apparently that was good enough. I didn't have to imprison them, indoctrinate them, brainwash them. I gave them respect and allowed them to make their own choices. The three of them drink occassionally, a lot less than I did at their ages. I am very proud of them, and I hope there is no God laying in wait to punish their behavior. I believe God is unconcerned with our refreshments but rather He sees our deeds, our intentions, our lives. Alcohol can be harmful, can contribute to excess of passion, health concerns, waste of time. All of those things can be harmful, but those things would not disappear from earth if alcohol disappeared from earth. > We are simply discussing alcohol and its harmful effects > on society because by and large society is not obeying God's Laws. Alcohol contributes to behavior excesses. It is against Baha'i law. I disagree that God punishes those who use alcohol. He does not. Those who practice behavioral excesses shoulder the consequences of their actions, and you are welcomed to look upon that as God the Punisher if you like, but He does not punish behavior that does not harm anyone. To say that He does means He is not fair, He is irrational. --Kent On Oct 2, 11:42=A0am, Douglas McAdam wrote: > On Oct 2, 2008, at 8:02 AM, compx2 wrote: > > > Hi Doug, > > > There is no conflict within what I said. > > > Nothing bad will happen if we commit morally neutral actions, like an > > occassional drink as Paul said he liked to do. =A0I am sure Paul will > > admit that he does not drink in order to aid humanity, he does it > > because he wants to, and I submit that he should, he has a right, and > > no Baha'i should criticize or hold him in lesser esteem for his > > choice. > > Kent- > First of all I am not criticizing Paul or anyone else I am only =A0 > sharing what I understand to be what our Writings say about laws from =A0 > God. =A0Don't forget the Writings also tell us there is a reward and =A0 > punishment contained in these laws whether we believe in them or not. > > > > > Just because Baha'is have taken a vow to a higher standard does not > > mean that bad things will happen to those who don't take such a vow. > > I think society's present materialistic condition is proof enough of =A0 > what happens when God's Laws are not adhered to. =A0Have you not read of =A0 > the Guardian's analysis of the conditions in America? > > > > > When we fulfil Baha'u'llah's teachings to change our lives, to act on > > the Teachings, to live the life prescribed in the Writings, to be the > > Baha'i that 'Abdu'l-Baha asks us to be, repeatedly, we are promised > > rewards, confirmations, scattering angels, and much more. > > Yes. > > > > > On the other hand, those who decide not to take the vows we have > > taken, and those who do not cut their hair as prescribed in the Aqdas, > > are not promised eternal damnation or a horrible, conflicted life. > > Nobody is talking about eternal damnation Kent. =A0Do you recall the =A0 > twin duties imposed on mankind? =A0 Think of it this way. =A0God has =A0 > forbidden theft. =A0But there are people who commit thievery. =A0Their =A0 > acts cause them to be incarcerated, having to go to Court, maybe =A0 > prison, etc. =A0That is a cost to taxpayers. =A0So we all suffer from =A0 > someone breaking God's Laws whether we believe in them or not. > > > > > You seem to be proscribing a future Baha'i society where Baha'is will > > tell Paul he can't drink, and I don't think that will or should > > happen. =A0I would hope that those who want to better their lives > > through the spirit of God would do so without being forced to by code > > of law. =A0And that those who have taken that spiritual mantle would no t > > try to force on others behavior they have voluntarily chosen for > > themselves. > > No I know of no such thing Kent. =A0I know of only what the Writings say =A0 > about the future, that we are establishing God's Kingdom on Earth in =A0 > fulfillment of the promise of Jesus the Christ and in our Teachings it =A0 > says that no Baha'i has the right to judge others. > > > > > You: " ... why did God gives us =A0those laws?" > > > So we would voluntarily follow them, and understand through our own > > eyes the spiritual value of the deeds we perform. =A0Otherwise we have > > God as judge and the Baha'i Faith as police force, and no one > > investigating for themselves. > > Or is it because God knows what we need for our spiritual development =A0 > and so He gives us Laws to follow? =A0We need love and unity in the =A0 > world and God gives us all the directions we need. =A0We ourselves make =A0 > rules in various ways to insure order and organization. > > > > > If a person chooses to lie to his or her mother, perhaps that person > > should be marked for life, put in prison, whether that person is 50 or > > 5 years old, but I don't think so. =A0Certainly we should not lie, but > > the truth is, we cannot and therefore should not try to force everyone > > to be truthful all the time. =A0Such is impossible, and therefore > > futile, so why do it? > > Who is talking about forcing everyone to be truthful? =A0I'm not and I =A0 > don't know of any Baha'i who does this. =A0Our parents gave us rules and =A0 > one was to not lie and if we did we were punished to help us get back =A0 > on track. > > > > > A law won't help whether it comes from society or God. =A0We still > > choose for ourselves. =A0If there are consequences for our lying they > > should come from society. =A0But if there are benefits for not lying > > they should come from our own, personal, spiritual, internal systems > > of reinforcement, self knowledge, respect, virtue and nobility. > > Then why have laws if they won't be of help? > The consequences from lying can come from parents, from an =A0 > organization that expects us to be truthful, but in reality it all =A0 > comes from God who gave us laws in which reward and punishment are =A0 > inherent. > > > > >> Not only will Paul waste his life but it will hurt society by losing > >> his capacity or if a family man his family will suffer. > > > I doubt seriously if you meant to say that. =A0But if you did, well, I > > would prefer to spend time with the likes of Paul than the likes of > > those who would uphold a statement like you make above. =A0I will cast > > my lot (am I gambling? =A0Will I be arrested by the Baha'i Police, or > > will my life now go to heck?) with those who willingly choose their > > life and life style than with those who would force others to change > > through laws or ridicule or overgeneralization and exaggeration. > > Please look at my comments in context. =A0I am speaking of addictions. =A0 > Paul said he likes to drink once in a while and is putting up a sort =A0 > of rationalization for this habit, a rationalization I used myself =A0 > when drinking and using drugs 40 yrs ago and what I constantly here =A0 > from many, many people and in my view they are casting votes, dollar =A0 > votes too for the entire alcohol industry and the consequences of =A0 > addiction and the cost to society which in turn come back to hurt them =A0 > in many ways. =A0God did not say it was OK to drink or use drugs once in =A0 > a while or socially, He forbid it except under a doctor's =A0 > prescription. =A0We can readily see the punishment inflicted on society, =A0 > on all of us for disobedience. =A0We are one family and so I will do =A0 > what I can to help family members. =A0Do you tell your children it is OK =A0 > if they wish to take a drink or smoke some crack once in a while? > > > Paul is just fine in my opinion, and I bristle at the suggestion that > > his occassional drink makes him a less than fine human being. =A0Howeve r > > a holier than thou attitude on the part of people denouncing Paul's > > behavior would indicate a problem of character, in my considered > > opinion. > > I think he is fine too but nobody is saying he is less than a fine =A0 > human being. =A0We are simply discussing alcohol and its harmful effects =A0 > on society because by and large society is not obeying God's Laws. =A0 > Please don't suggest such things for that is not my intention at all =A0 > and for sure I know of no Baha'i who would say such a thing. =A0We need =A0 > to separate behavior from the human being and my belief is that we are =A0 > all living souls in seed form, striving as best we can to live a good =A0 > life. =A0But laws are laws and disrespect and disobedience to them have =A0 > consequences that hurt us all which is why I care to help my close =A0 > family and the family of humankind. > > doug From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Fri Oct 3 21:20:43 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03C094B0A59 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 21:20:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fmvyy0ZE2pBF for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 21:20:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 692FA4B0A81; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 21:20:39 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 20:21:04 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 21:13:12 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=VC8NDnEF9bJdJExLn1a2m2gekeCsWH58mRgTUg7OxkjwgAM0jASZs2YhMavMfCV293TbCX7f6B4I5JbtT81qM8v2qL+hkS9uvAXXEvzxgsqe3vQPEFPjQ1mf9cLrnPnV+mStRJfU3Sa0arX4zAC5qhFFXBJ7BR9w6xyxMzinEQ0= ; X-YMail-OSG: GQnXLsgVM1kLhpTqmUgAbBGLjILWrHqaOXabHFeLvsRIaf6MVtn0TOXb3y7nBoOywVs18HpXP2f_906g4toMhApPwkcY.ThvtllGszYoRh6juo.CB0hn8CVS86rd1wUyZayRARm0wGYDO3gli5aPbfWxcjFxK.zbcK_ddIOkbQ0U8RUHHg-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 21:12:55 -0400 References: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-fiQXdVIqKQuLQsFAwliPbj8UdG8R8tLSEA8SbtD0gbynTuYGL01msEPQHgi/YH2Mvea1BXV/tv4y7sw!2oKnfOk1lLCii5JoB8fyzyGqkSkeO5JwAcxPTlG0lTuRB36GrDsOcLrLUAIWHvwAzLKZ+6mryg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25384 Hi Kent- I think there is a communication problem here. Please seem my comments below. On Oct 2, 2008, at 10:13 PM, compx2 wrote: > Hi Doug, > >> Don't forget the Writings also tell us there is a reward and >> punishment contained in these laws whether we believe in them or not. > > And what I said was there is no punishment in store for morally > neutral behavior, like Paul's occassional drink, or hair length not in > line with the proscription in the Aqdas. Can you give me an idea of a morally neutral behavior? Behavior is either moral or immoral when we talk about drugs, alcohol, disobedience to laws etc. A person can be ignorant of a law but violation still may cause that person to experience punishment. You gave an example of occasional drink or hair length well there are laws about both and so if we are a believer in God and those revealed laws then there is bound to be some sort of punishment and reward for obedience or disobedience. We can see how ignorance of the law of gravity can cause physical damage, even death to a baby who has no knowledge of such a law. > > > If you believe there is punishment in store for non-Baha'is, or for > any who refuse to follow Baha'i laws, well, I differ. Actually, > more. I am offended. My religion does not believe in such > punishment, and it will take extraordinary tolerance, forebearance and > grace to accept that those beliefs exist within my religion. I > believe the Baha'i Faith is tolerance, acceptance and unity. Luckily > I will accept your right to be wrong gracefully and not assert that > your misunderstanding of universal Order will pe punished. It's fine, > really. I don't know why you should feel offended for I am only sharing my understanding of the entire process of God creating this Creation, giving us laws and the capacity to obey which contains reward and punishment whether we believe in Him and His laws or not. I do not judge Paul, you or anyone for your behaviors, I am only sharing what I have learned from my own search. There is no way we can consult unless we share full, frank, open and honest opinions, tempered with courtesy, tact and wisdom. I mean no offense but I cannot be responsible for how you interpret my actions and motives. > > > There is reward and punishment, but that does not mean that Paul's > drinking will be punished. In fact, I would like to take this > opportunity to offer a prayer on Paul's behalf, that he might truly > enjoy his refreshments, and that those refreshments should revitalize > Paul and re-enable him to renew his efforts toward those things Paul > finds valuable. And it is my fervent prayer with all the potency of > every Baha'i ideal that I command that Paul should not be punished for > his refreshments. I pray that the punishments in store for Paul > should rather find me instead. I pray also. However science has already proven the harm from drinking even one drink. The problem is the harm is not that noticeable until we overdo it. If he wishes to harm his brain and body that is his right but at the same time he is hurting society by diminishing his powers. We need his brain and his heart as much as we need yours. I would caution my children from doing things that could harm them and why not Paul. The difference is that Paul is an adult and I don't judge him but I can judge the behavior because it is a law of God that we do not use alcohol and that law applies to all mankind, similar to the law of gravity. Spiritual laws effect all Creation and Creatures. This is what I have learned over my 40 years of study of the Baha'i Writings. > > >> I think society's present materialistic condition is proof enough of >> what happens when God's Laws are not adhered to. > > Society's? How about yours and mine? Perhaps we should renounce our > earthly belongings, donate our retirement funds to the poor? I am. I devote my entire life to service in my SED project which also is in obedience to the House of Justice Plan. I am doing all I can and still not enough. Like I said Kent I am not judging Paul, I am not dealing here with personalities I am trying to be objective and focusing on the issues. > > > Perhaps society is being punished for our neglect? I think that is true because look at what we have to offer and what are the results? I don't want to get into a long discussion about teaching but one must ask oneself, how many souls have I helped bring into the Faith? Why are we so few? What is our responsibility and why are we not doing it? > > >> Have you not read of >> the Guardian's analysis of the conditions in America? > > "All we can reasonably venture to attempt is to strive to obtain a > glimpse of the first streaks of the promised Dawn that must, in the > fullness of time, chase away the gloom that has encircled humanity. > All we can do is to point out, in their broadest outlines, what appear > to us to be the guiding principles underlying the World Order of > Bah=E1'u'll=E1h, as amplified and enunciated by 'Abdu'l-Bah=E1, the Center > of His Covenant with all mankind and the appointed Interpreter and > Expounder of His Word." (Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of > Baha'u'llah, p. 34) > > I say let's chase away the gloom, and deny the punishments from God > for anything other than intentionally hurting others. Rewards, on the > other hand, are in store for anyone who sacrifices for others. Kent, I am speaking of Shoghi Effendis analysis of the world and the American condition. How can we deny the punishments from God when we read the Writings and see how it is so clear that we must obey His laws and the results of disobedience is before us each day. Wars, crime, violence, adultery, abusive behaviors, etc., etc. is abounding all over the globe and some diseases are pandemic and epidemic. Like I said one may be ignorant of a law of God but disobedience still brings punishment. > > >> Who is talking about forcing everyone to be truthful? > > You talk about God the Punisher. Is it not a Baha'i law to be > truthful? You were talking about all that. How could I have misread > you so badly? That is exactly what I thought you were saying. I am not talking about God the Punisher, I am talking about God's divine system which contains laws what bring reward and punishment to ourselves by obedience and disobedience. We punish ourselves. > > >> So we all suffer from >> someone breaking God's Laws whether we believe in them or not. > > Does this mean we should not force people? We should just suck it > up? All you liars out there are hurting everyone, but that's okay. We > don't want to force you to stop. Right? Huh? I have no idea what you are talking about and how you could deduce this from my comments. I am not trying to force anyone to do anything, I am striving at my best to obey God's Covenant and my behavior effects others all over the globe. Just by inhaling and exhaling molecules we affect others. > > > I have a fundamentally different view. God is not the punisher, but > in many cases religion is. I say religion is what religion does. To > paraphrase a popular quote: good people will to good things, bad > people will do bad things, but it takes religion to make good people > do bad things. When we say that God is going to punish people for > their choice of refreshment it becomes a short step to enforcing God's > laws with self appointed, religiously motivated, police. I am for > tolerance. If God made the law, let God enforce it, and pray that He > is just. It would not be just to punish someone for an occassional > alcoholic drink and more than any other morally neutral behavior, like > vain hair care or flashy clothes. Like I said God has created a divine system for mankind and we best obey or else we suffer from the laws and principles He has put into effect if we disobey. When I taught my children and also in doing mgmt. and staff training I taught the rules and what would happen if they were disobeyed. When they were disobeyed I simple said something t the effect of, "well you have chosen your punishment, right?" There is the divinely revealed Religion which will not harm anyone. On the contrary it will most effectively release human potential. But the religion (small r) that we create from our limited understanding of that Divine Religion (capital R) is what can cause harm. I'm not talking about your religion or mine Kent, meaning our personal interpretation of the Divine Religion I am talking about Divine Teachings readily available in the Baha'i Religion. > > >> Do you recall the >> twin duties imposed on mankind? > > I recall twin duties of Baha'is. Please enlighten me. Here is the quote and there are others- IN THE NAME OF HIM WHO IS THE SUPREME RULEROVER ALL THAT HATH BEEN AND ALL THAT IS TO BE The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 16) >> Then why have laws if they won't be of help? > > I am the one arguing against the laws. Now you ask me why we have the > things I don't want us to have. Because I am powerless to stop people > like you who want useless, unenforceable laws. And once again you are misunderstanding and misinterpreting my comments. God makes the Laws not me. Sure we have some useless laws that man has concocted and we can do something about them by voting or taking some kind of positive action to change them but disobedience of them is also not something Baha'is are supposed to do. I do not want useless, unenforceable laws. Just because you don't agree with something I said does not make me wrong, does it? > > >> Do you tell your children it is OK >> if they wish to take a drink or smoke some crack once in a while? > > I taught my children by example, and apparently that was good enough. > I didn't have to imprison them, indoctrinate them, brainwash them. I > gave them respect and allowed them to make their own choices. The > three of them drink occassionally, a lot less than I did at their > ages. I am very proud of them, and I hope there is no God laying in > wait to punish their behavior. I believe God is unconcerned with our > refreshments but rather He sees our deeds, our intentions, our lives. > Alcohol can be harmful, can contribute to excess of passion, health > concerns, waste of time. All of those things can be harmful, but > those things would not disappear from earth if alcohol disappeared > from earth. I taught my children the same way but they also were influenced by society at large and especially their peer group and when of legal age all four experiment with alcohol and marijuana and they all agreed the Baha'i Writing we right and they stopped using. Kent, you use the word "refreshments" and others often say "social drinking" and other say "recreational drugs" and for me all these terms are unrealistic. There is nothing refreshing, social or recreational (recreating) about drugs and alcohol. God gave us the laws of prohibition and we now know from science the harm they can do to our brain and body. > > >> We are simply discussing alcohol and its harmful effects >> on society because by and large society is not obeying God's Laws. > > Alcohol contributes to behavior excesses. It is against Baha'i law. > I disagree that God punishes those who use alcohol. He does not. > Those who practice behavioral excesses shoulder the consequences of > their actions, and you are welcomed to look upon that as God the > Punisher if you like, but He does not punish behavior that does not > harm anyone. To say that He does means He is not fair, He is > irrational. It all depends on what point of view we see things. From a systems and overall view of things I see it quite different. Society is a system. A family is a system. Corporations, religions and other collectives are system. Each system has three components, i.e., Human Resources, Material Resources and Communication (how we perceive these resources) Our perceptions are the result of conditioning by discovery, experience and revelation, the three ways we learn. How we apply these resources is determined by our type, degree and quality of our education and here I mean body, mind and spirit education, not just academics. For the system to be effective its member parts must focus on and take actions to realize the overall goal of love and unity. We need all our assets, all our resources in prime condition to be at their highest effectiveness. All our problems are related to unsatisfied, needs, wants and desires. People want and desire harmful things even at the expense of their needs. Our physical, intellectual and spiritual needs all must be satisfied and in harmony to be able to create sciences and religions that are in harmony which in turn helps humanity achieve its overall purpose of love and unity. Any damage, minimal or major will have an effect on all resources. We are all existing in a state or condition of servitude to God and humanity and to release our potential we are told to be obedient to God's Covenant. He gives us Laws to help us release our potential to become truly spiritual servants. There are all kinds of punishments, types, degrees etc. and some may not appear to be all that noticeable and others are. A person getting drunk or high in their own home, out of sight of their neighbors etc. may think they are doing no harm but considering their condition of servitude being dependent on the development and proper application of their God given capacity and talents they may not really be aware of how much harm they are doing, nor may we. Maybe my feelings and attitudes about all this are somewhat colored by my 29 years of dealing with the harmful effects of these chemicals and I'm now dealing with third generation addicts but still I see the wisdom in both science and religion of avoiding them. These addicts I deal with come in all sizes, types, etc. and they all have tried to rationalize their habits and many tell me how they had parents who were only casual drinkers or smokers of pot etc. One thing all this has taught me and that is that I am not going to cast any positive votes for anyone who produces and uses such drugs, no matter to what degree. But I am speaking of behavior and not the soul for only God can judge the soul so please don't attribute any negative criticism to me. regards, doug > > > --Kent > > > On Oct 2, 11:42 am, Douglas McAdam > wrote: >> On Oct 2, 2008, at 8:02 AM, compx2 wrote: >> >>> Hi Doug, >> >>> There is no conflict within what I said. >> >>> Nothing bad will happen if we commit morally neutral actions, like >>> an >>> occassional drink as Paul said he liked to do. I am sure Paul will >>> admit that he does not drink in order to aid humanity, he does it >>> because he wants to, and I submit that he should, he has a right, >>> and >>> no Baha'i should criticize or hold him in lesser esteem for his >>> choice. >> >> Kent- >> First of all I am not criticizing Paul or anyone else I am only >> sharing what I understand to be what our Writings say about laws from >> God. Don't forget the Writings also tell us there is a reward and >> punishment contained in these laws whether we believe in them or not. >> >> >> >>> Just because Baha'is have taken a vow to a higher standard does not >>> mean that bad things will happen to those who don't take such a vow. >> >> I think society's present materialistic condition is proof enough of >> what happens when God's Laws are not adhered to. Have you not read >> of > >> the Guardian's analysis of the conditions in America? >> >> >> >>> When we fulfil Baha'u'llah's teachings to change our lives, to act >>> on >>> the Teachings, to live the life prescribed in the Writings, to be >>> the >>> Baha'i that 'Abdu'l-Baha asks us to be, repeatedly, we are promised >>> rewards, confirmations, scattering angels, and much more. >> >> Yes. >> >> >> >>> On the other hand, those who decide not to take the vows we have >>> taken, and those who do not cut their hair as prescribed in the >>> Aqdas, >>> are not promised eternal damnation or a horrible, conflicted life. >> >> Nobody is talking about eternal damnation Kent. Do you recall the >> twin duties imposed on mankind? Think of it this way. God has >> forbidden theft. But there are people who commit thievery. Their > >> acts cause them to be incarcerated, having to go to Court, maybe >> prison, etc. That is a cost to taxpayers. So we all suffer from >> someone breaking God's Laws whether we believe in them or not. >> >> >> >>> You seem to be proscribing a future Baha'i society where Baha'is >>> will >>> tell Paul he can't drink, and I don't think that will or should >>> happen. I would hope that those who want to better their lives >>> through the spirit of God would do so without being forced to by >>> code >>> of law. And that those who have taken that spiritual mantle would >>> no > t >>> try to force on others behavior they have voluntarily chosen for >>> themselves. >> >> No I know of no such thing Kent. I know of only what the Writings >> say > >> about the future, that we are establishing God's Kingdom on Earth in >> fulfillment of the promise of Jesus the Christ and in our Teachings >> it > >> says that no Baha'i has the right to judge others. >> >> >> >>> You: " ... why did God gives us those laws?" >> >>> So we would voluntarily follow them, and understand through our own >>> eyes the spiritual value of the deeds we perform. Otherwise we have >>> God as judge and the Baha'i Faith as police force, and no one >>> investigating for themselves. >> >> Or is it because God knows what we need for our spiritual development >> and so He gives us Laws to follow? We need love and unity in the >> world and God gives us all the directions we need. We ourselves make > >> rules in various ways to insure order and organization. >> >> >> >>> If a person chooses to lie to his or her mother, perhaps that person >>> should be marked for life, put in prison, whether that person is >>> 50 or >>> 5 years old, but I don't think so. Certainly we should not lie, but >>> the truth is, we cannot and therefore should not try to force >>> everyone >>> to be truthful all the time. Such is impossible, and therefore >>> futile, so why do it? >> >> Who is talking about forcing everyone to be truthful? I'm not and I > >> don't know of any Baha'i who does this. Our parents gave us rules >> and > >> one was to not lie and if we did we were punished to help us get back >> on track. >> >> >> >>> A law won't help whether it comes from society or God. We still >>> choose for ourselves. If there are consequences for our lying they >>> should come from society. But if there are benefits for not lying >>> they should come from our own, personal, spiritual, internal systems >>> of reinforcement, self knowledge, respect, virtue and nobility. >> >> Then why have laws if they won't be of help? >> The consequences from lying can come from parents, from an >> organization that expects us to be truthful, but in reality it all >> comes from God who gave us laws in which reward and punishment are >> inherent. >> >> >> >>>> Not only will Paul waste his life but it will hurt society by >>>> losing >>>> his capacity or if a family man his family will suffer. >> >>> I doubt seriously if you meant to say that. But if you did, well, I >>> would prefer to spend time with the likes of Paul than the likes of >>> those who would uphold a statement like you make above. I will cast >>> my lot (am I gambling? Will I be arrested by the Baha'i Police, or >>> will my life now go to heck?) with those who willingly choose their >>> life and life style than with those who would force others to change >>> through laws or ridicule or overgeneralization and exaggeration. >> >> Please look at my comments in context. I am speaking of addictions. > >> Paul said he likes to drink once in a while and is putting up a sort >> of rationalization for this habit, a rationalization I used myself >> when drinking and using drugs 40 yrs ago and what I constantly here >> from many, many people and in my view they are casting votes, dollar >> votes too for the entire alcohol industry and the consequences of >> addiction and the cost to society which in turn come back to hurt >> them > >> in many ways. God did not say it was OK to drink or use drugs once >> in > >> a while or socially, He forbid it except under a doctor's >> prescription. We can readily see the punishment inflicted on >> society, > >> on all of us for disobedience. We are one family and so I will do >> what I can to help family members. Do you tell your children it is >> OK > >> if they wish to take a drink or smoke some crack once in a while? >> >>> Paul is just fine in my opinion, and I bristle at the suggestion >>> that >>> his occassional drink makes him a less than fine human being. >>> Howeve > r >>> a holier than thou attitude on the part of people denouncing Paul's >>> behavior would indicate a problem of character, in my considered >>> opinion. >> >> I think he is fine too but nobody is saying he is less than a fine >> human being. We are simply discussing alcohol and its harmful >> effects > >> on society because by and large society is not obeying God's Laws. >> Please don't suggest such things for that is not my intention at all >> and for sure I know of no Baha'i who would say such a thing. We need > >> to separate behavior from the human being and my belief is that we >> are > >> all living souls in seed form, striving as best we can to live a good >> life. But laws are laws and disrespect and disobedience to them have > >> consequences that hurt us all which is why I care to help my close >> family and the family of humankind. >> >> doug > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Fri Oct 3 23:29:29 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDDBC4B0AAA for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 23:29:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dqTnJEJGzeLP for ; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 23:29:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 841944B0AC0; Fri, 3 Oct 2008 23:29:28 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 22:29:37 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 23:00:06 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Religious Tolerance Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 19:55:50 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: d70g2000hsc.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KlxNE-0005Ts-60 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-fUuByC1HU3/VQh850zjEd9db1riKzxiZ3HuxxrjXSGucsx3A9SAUDxPQ+sbJ8IhaWyt/AUiV/i2Tszt!De2+Nm6hSdFi+DKhGueGwvfu5gYPWUjXf+xnEUzgEWJX5OsiMc+hdDAY9p3R+8AE/UYmvwVoIg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25385 Hi Doug, As I said in a previous message, your idea of God as Punisher of the casual consumer of alcohol is offensive to me as a Baha'i. I think the Baha'i Faith is about tolerance, love, justice, mercy, and virtue. > We can see how ignorance of the law of gravity can cause physical damage, even death to a baby who has no knowledge of such a law. I will tolerate that people with your belief system exist in my religion, but disagree, point by point, with that belief system, being absolutely clear about my objections. Good people do good things. Bad people do bad things. And with a belief system like you have it is possible to convince good people to do bad things. I have a big problem with a lot of Baha'is who believe in a simplistic version of what "Manifestions" are, what "God's Law" is, what a "revelation from God" means. I find in many cases that if I did not have my own, very different interpretation of what these words and phrases mean I would not be Baha'i. I have to take a step back, and breath deeply, and calm myself. It is tolerance. I can allow you to believe this evident error and remain a Baha'i. The question is: Can you allow me the same consideration? Can you believe that there are Baha'is who do not share your intolerance toward the secular use of alcohol? Can you understand that I don't care if Paul drinks. Nay, more that I hope he enjoys his drinks. Can you tolerate my view? Can you stand side by side with the likes of me in an Assembly who will, one day, try to sanction non-Baha'is for their drinking? Will you understand us when we grieve and cry that your position robs people of the freedom God gave them to choose their spiritual paths? If a non-Baha'i wants to practice partisan politics, preach national protectionism, learn 42 languages, not contribute to charity... our concern should be their happiness, their spiritual path, their choices to better themselves and their neighbors. Wish them luck and joy as they grow toward God. Any other way of dealing with others is not worthy. > Behavior is either moral or immoral when we talk about drugs, alcohol, > disobedience to laws etc. I don't need to justify myself, you are just wrong about that. But because you don't appear to understand I will try to explain to you there is no line between the moral use of drugs and the immoral use of drugs. There is a vast gray area. The moral use would be take a drug that will allow us to somehow better serve humanity. Immoral drug use directly harms an innocent person. I would bet all of us have used drugs for selfish purposes, so that pain is lessened, for example, or so we breath easier. How is that good for humanity? Most drug use is neither clearly moral nor clearly immoral. People take drugs to feel better, whether it is morphine after surgery, benadryl for allergies, or wine with a fine dinner. >I don't know why you should feel offended < My religion is about tolerance, and your version of my religion is plainly intolerant. Further, you invoke God as a punisher for what you portray as universally harmful (alcohol) for no other reason than it might be potentially harmful, sometimes, under some extreme situations. > However science has already proven the harm from drinking even one drink. Absolutely false. No one has proven anything of the sort. I am reminded of Mullahs who teach that those who eat pork will turn into pigs. You: > Don't forget the Writings also tell us there is a reward and punishment > contained in these laws whether we believe in them or not. and > I think society's present materialistic condition is proof enough of what > happens when God's Laws are not adhered to. and > If he wishes to harm his brain and body that is his right but at the same > time he is hurting society by diminishing his powers. It sounds to me as though you are saying we need to force people to follow God's Law for the good of society. I certainly hope that isn't what you are saying. If that is not what you are saying then let's be sure you are aware and don't progress to the point where you think it might be a good idea, someday, to force secular adherence to Baha'i law. That kind of thinking makes religions evil, turns good people bad. --Kent From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sat Oct 4 02:51:08 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69F1A4B0B07 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 2008 02:51:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BhWUAkiCLbOI for ; Sat, 4 Oct 2008 02:51:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id E0EDE4B0B0A; Sat, 4 Oct 2008 02:51:07 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 01:51:53 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 02:28:19 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.4.0.080122 Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 19:27:55 -1100 Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance From: Bill Hyman Thread-Topic: Religious Tolerance Thread-Index: Ackl6lXelFkALpHdEd2aMQAwZXfiJg== In-Reply-To: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at blueskynet.as X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Km0cj-0003zl-4Y X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-hGAftUkKKLeHFNVPS5/QC2K4vdXdOMZim8w2HXCFGKWCdkyzKWvxJ+2a+FF8TNwFetLUudWR1met2Zq!ShGAEn+O+4KbgiJ9Flm8VkHIzY8F3TQMQgjpkVW/lxQxAdU9oYgjPbdfWyWm4k2vxu9jIUYCuw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25386 Kent wrote: On 10/3/08 3:55 PM, "compx2" wrote: > My religion is about tolerance, and your version of my religion is > plainly intolerant. I am a supporter of Doug's views expressed on this thread. There are Divine Laws revealed by Baha'u'llah and Baha'is need to abide by them. One who is ignorant of those laws obviously cannot abide by them, but that still does not protect society from repercussions of that ignorance. Baha'is need to live those laws and set the example to eventually attract the masses into the Baha'i era. I think there is a difference between Baha'i tolerance and Baha'i rationalizations to ignore Baha'i laws. Bill From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sat Oct 4 11:23:56 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F9F14B05D7 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 2008 11:23:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nzwuIQqcZCqw for ; Sat, 4 Oct 2008 11:23:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id B1E3B4B0A67; Sat, 4 Oct 2008 11:23:55 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 10:24:26 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 11:12:28 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=Fobf6ORAril/EmSeY7cRV/sYuDSWGUVS0D98es1CxHfkuFGfMvoMRqNotEJO9bB+aJSix5iu6ihwI6sen9ICoarELZxYtN3NYrHwFJUPUTwZlHpUrxORyRBuaAxseSAtQze6TXsilXYDWKBOykjMgQr/fMdomVkEPRwwBtSjdzI= ; X-YMail-OSG: p87P_5UVM1nb2_kGSZhaJmmVbVrIIrd5rviYLdQdzHT_idhBdbywx6AhMqQ.nnhUcmWcs5ktkVl8xYRKj5gEJwmU3nsYmll6x6aizWq2Ao2BZxOb6Axxfa59aBPLjD2LWeMO49aQA7ORyhi5.x50d.hj X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 11:12:12 -0400 References: X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Km8nw-0005nw-7M X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: <-sSdnb7Tars2F3rVnZ2dnUVZ_tLinZ2d@giganews.com> X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-mlM2rjgxMiGk8ypi8mnM0VZVbL/IGoJPaS4+H6SDWzV1yrZhrLioaHUnibzy5BJWWjkjM07YRNISJze!9NW+TQMCPa0bEGu0efSxgtrs5rLS4YZYaUIqJfaHs+L32IL9E3XV9u2Lvhy9HNYcwaUrRKhZ4w== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25387 Thank you Bill for you have expressed with greater clarity and summarily what I was trying to get across. I chalk up a lot of our communication problems to the medium of emails and our lack of using the principle of consultation and effective communication. God bless, doug On Oct 4, 2008, at 2:27 AM, Bill Hyman wrote: > Kent wrote: > > On 10/3/08 3:55 PM, "compx2" wrote: > >> My religion is about tolerance, and your version of my religion is >> plainly intolerant. > > I am a supporter of Doug's views expressed on this thread. There are > Divine > Laws revealed by Baha'u'llah and Baha'is need to abide by them. One > who is > ignorant of those laws obviously cannot abide by them, but that > still does > not protect society from repercussions of that ignorance. Baha'is > need to > live those laws and set the example to eventually attract the masses > into > the Baha'i era. > > I think there is a difference between Baha'i tolerance and Baha'i > rationalizations to ignore Baha'i laws. > > Bill > > > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sat Oct 4 11:41:16 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAD0B4B07F4 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 2008 11:41:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hIeeNUSsV-zj for ; Sat, 4 Oct 2008 11:41:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 87A894B08F2; Sat, 4 Oct 2008 11:41:16 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 10:41:27 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 11:31:41 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org X-Authentication-Warning: serv3.gc.dca.giganews.com: news set sender to poster@giganews.com using -f Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 10:31:21 -0500 From: Poststructuralist Reply-To: drfosternotfromgloucester@nospamgmail.com User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Windows/20080914) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DF-Seen-By: ms X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Km96X-0007Sh-CQ X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-0.38, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, TVD_SPACE_RATIO 2.22) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-OzDN1ZrD73KCxnYetaLJEVV5J+aLDcAw/cHeUP0gPWglefdf3GVvFPDAupeZVLA5TM+dI/SZjp4rNLh!eZcKWCQqi9w322FqbeECCvjjiGQsl1JD6rkjkL5B9iak3WV5/lEXewuUo8ioqLP3+f6kfRIRQg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25388 From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Oct 5 12:28:55 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2E124B0A10 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 2008 12:28:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id URK-zIAEnNae for ; Sun, 5 Oct 2008 12:28:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 16F1D4B0A1E; Sun, 5 Oct 2008 12:28:55 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 11:29:17 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 12:20:15 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=pNvhOurI50KGYDX2muihcbBVPFfKLN2yiwEiOzKl1OOHzL8csNJX4q9gIyHIznNPPZ5mJmG3vC8KwdcviDv7VmnJeGm4ddL3dxQg4oUvjpulOk5olWnuDHagvfrZOBAiwPOsRIfPuIOaw2t/65dFTHgLhq70SwpmXsmyP2NyVfk= ; X-YMail-OSG: .864GvgVM1lxGrBa8_xLROJyAOkahWuWLbqJblMS3qT9ShLCu6jnuZnnCx.F3oUp4Iy16HjRXJbYgjL2BZpEHu8TVtESQOLpRZ4cFWwIPGp6F9KMTOaRD5p23151g3In6jNef4eAySdGfPYHafl5555a X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: God's Side? Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 12:19:59 -0400 References: <5vudnWWnEpEAlU3VnZ2dnUVZ_j-dnZ2d@giganews.com> <3OWdnYTP2Oih-0XVnZ2dnUVZ_jqdnZ2d@giganews.com> X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KmWL2-0003rj-BM X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-H9Ldw/TJyYuRgahli2OMgpvE90abpErNu4OkBlj0XI6f7N5CMJe5gjmUoa/hPRni4mtuthafn/SlSCb!XGAUino4e5y72RqBN5KaiSleqaddLkAYQfSpja+5TNlo3K/2h3JL5HbU3CGLCqsZBnGsbnwScg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25389 How does one know if another is doing God's work? How about those who are Creationists who believe the earth was created in six 24 hr days and the Creator rested on the seventh? Or the Intelligent Designers, or those who believe their religion is the only way to heaven and all others are doomed to hell? I know many nice people who have these kinds of beliefs. Are they doing God's work. How about people who are nice folks but upon hearing of Baha'u'llah they reject Him saying there are no more Prophets or Messengers after Muhammad. What about people who did not accept Jesus? Exactly what criteria does on use to determine who is doing God's work? regards, doug On Sep 24, 2008, at 8:39 AM, mikeran37@yahoo.com wrote: >> Either you missed my point completely, you are insulting me directly, >> or both. My issue is whoever does God's work (basic math)is doing >> God's work, no matter what religion they belong to or what name they > > Kent, I am appreciating your point but I think you've missed mine. > > I'll take your statement above to mean that you do believe education > is necessary. > My point: People need to be educated as Baha'is, because while it is > true that some spiritually enlightened folks will figure it out on > their own, there is no organized group out there teaching the total > packaged principles of the Baha'i Faith other than the Baha'i Faith > itself. > > For the very same reason that I send my child to school to learn > math, our society needs to learn the Baha'i Faith. Without this > education, our society will needlessly suffer. I know my child has the > ability to figure math out on his own, but I also know his life will > be alot simpler and easier and he will more readily propser if I teach > it to him. > > You are lost in the arguement about whether or not individuals can be > Baha'i without even knowing about the Faith, and my arguement is about > the societies need for the Baha'i Faith. > > Not every student you teach will get an A+ in math and not every > Baha'i you teach will do Gods' work. But it does little to change the > fact in either case, that both need to be taught. Failure to do so is > going to result in bad times for everyone. > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Oct 5 20:18:46 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E7724B08C0 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 2008 20:18:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S7TPGtmqk1wI for ; Sun, 5 Oct 2008 20:18:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 8DB744B0938; Sun, 5 Oct 2008 20:18:45 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance From: compx2 Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 16:51:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: References: Organization: http://groups.google.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai X-Trace: sv3-ki6EX/wQejMMj9d9NAMLItnV8hy6h6XusUSjurK3fT0Tb73bn9YZli6+TSRLrt52GjhJgjAN1ceh0RZ!jHujw5zmfBSyhkCG11OhZjICorIOY8/sm+PjGpfv+gAAhPYIkXQF09rGc9g5rjBTEpynfoCBBg== NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 19:18:40 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 19:55:19 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: m74g2000hsh.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KmdRT-0001Je-Ix X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 X-Original-Bytes: 3254 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25390 Hi Bill, More strange things are happening when I try to post to the SRB. Suffice it to say, Bill, that I hear you express your disagreement with my words, and your agreement with Doug's. I do not understand how it is possible, and you were not specific enough in your short message for me to understand. But I have said my peace and Doug has said his. --Kent On Oct 4, 2:27=A0am, Bill Hyman wrote: > Kent wrote: > > On 10/3/08 3:55 PM, "compx2" wrote: > > > My religion is about tolerance, and your version of my religion is > > plainly intolerant. > > I am a supporter of Doug's views expressed on this thread. There are Divi ne > Laws revealed by Baha'u'llah and Baha'is need to abide by them. One who i s > ignorant of those laws obviously cannot abide by them, but that still doe s > not protect society from repercussions of that ignorance. Baha'is need to > live those laws and set the example to eventually attract the masses into > the Baha'i era. > > I think there is a difference between Baha'i tolerance and Baha'i > rationalizations to ignore Baha'i laws. > > Bill From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Oct 5 22:16:56 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A57EE4B07F4 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 2008 22:16:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WP4O1kp7q9P4 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 2008 22:16:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id B74094B0921; Sun, 5 Oct 2008 22:16:55 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 21:17:05 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 20:21:22 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Reply-To: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" From: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai References: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 11:18:38 +1000 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kmdqf-0003Dp-5a X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-r0gtR4ZYkq5YAr3I8I2t/Oln37SpUHD6vLcf93QoXPTbJAP/LwYD+PwZEqz+kJUik9XNbrsmyYK7onR!adg2j5D0qJjJt9loijLGpo0JMT1y7smATwDGYuvNBe6zfNFNMdWnSysEPC52J4awfMTB7jeWUQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118468 alt.religion.bahai:21128 soc.religion.bahai:25391 "compx2" wrote in message news:LZOdnf3eiuGJ8EDVnZ2dnUVZ_oPinZ2d@giganews.com... > Hi again, Tim. > > I am having great difficulty posting here, having tried to post this > one several times as well as others. > > The issue of infallibility has been discussed around here several > times in my years reading this forum. I suggest that if you want to > seriously discuss the issue further we should start a new thread. > > But as a Baha'i I have an obligation to understand the usage of the > word in relation to the institutions of the Faith and the Central > Figures. I have reconciled it myself with an understanding of the > purpose of God's revelation, that God works in broad strokes. In Her > revelation She has provided a matrix of understanding, the elimination > of prejudice, spiritual solution to economic problems, progressive > revelation from God, independent investigation... All of Her > revelation cannot be empirically verified, but the promise that should > we adopt these principles and follow Her proscriptions we will become > better people and attract Her confirmations. > I believe this is a major covenant between God and humanity, a major > connection that can only benefit humanity, and each of us personally. > > That is infallible. > > > --Kent [SNIP] I think that's beautiful Kent. Although my experience leads me to somewhat different beliefs, I have always agreed with the major principles of the Baha'i Faith - such as those you have mentioned. However, I am particularly cautious of arbitrary proscription because every human being already knows how to correctly derive a just proscription. We can all put ourselves in the shoes of others an empathise with them, and we all know how to find out which expectations are universal and which are the product of culture or temperament. I think that the key here is good will, consultation, and due diligence. Very simple compared to a code of laws - even if it is intended only for consumption as "a choice wine". We also have a rich enough culture to know how to prevent schism - As far as I can tell, the Royal Society was the first to achieve this by abolishing the role of doctrinal authority and rejecting concepts such as infallibility. ____________________________________________________________ Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the number@timothycasey.info to email. Philosophical Essays: http://timothycasey.info Speed Reading: http://speed-reading-comprehension.com Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security. Science & Geology: http://geologist-1011.com; http://geologist-1011.net Technical & Web Design: http://web-design-1011.com -- GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer today! From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Oct 5 22:17:10 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F16F14B0921 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 2008 22:17:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PgT7mTrgzt4e for ; Sun, 5 Oct 2008 22:17:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id C8A784B0A1C; Sun, 5 Oct 2008 22:17:08 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 21:17:28 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 21:36:45 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Reply-To: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" From: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai References: Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 12:36:13 +1000 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kmf1e-00084W-Q2 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-69WhmTSNDuLmmYeKXvuu6TKDWVm4eYEHt7Y4XRqlw/LlmFEUxjkhmy9AmjJlNcUUB72mRz90ZjcYjfr!OB6lVKYTCNIAdtcZG9kiicRR3Pw63yo462UE2s9zc64Z+873pISHI6O/jsDklKaoNku7yZuZdg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25392 talk.religion.bahai:118469 alt.religion.bahai:21129 wrote in message news:qNWdnbZE5b1ZzEDVnZ2dnUVZ_sbinZ2d@giganews.com... > > > >Either the translation is wrong or the Baha'u'llah is making an impossibly > >tall order here. If you have a serious problem, your doctor or GP will refer > >you to a specialist. If after many years of going in circles with monthly > >specialist consultation, you still get nowhere, one of them may refer you to > >a physician. A Physician is like a specialist but with multiple specialties; > >an advantage when dealing with diseases that are routinely misdiagnosed and > > The first premise of your argument that the translation is wrong only Not a premise but a contingency. > reveals either a lack of knowledge of the Baha'i Faith, persian or > lack of exposure to the Guardians translations.[SNIP] This still doesn't answer the dilemma - but if you only look at things one contingency at a time, you miss the dilemma. By the way, my exposure to the Guardian's translations is sufficient to know that they are riddled with errors. For example, "divers" is a plural noun, while the adjective is, "diverse". You don't need any Persian to pick mistakes like this, nor do you need any Persian to know the difference between a doctor and a physician. > "the use of alcohol is permitted if it is prescribed by a physician > for treatment purposes" > (Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 350) The Guardian uses the word, "physician", and none of: General Practitioner Medical Practitioner [Medical] Specialist [Medical] Doctor > >referred to the wrong specialist. Most people never meet a physician in > >their entire lifetime as they often wind up in teaching, and extremely rare > >diseases usually kill you long before they are likely to be diagnosed. > > The second premise that some may never find physicians or have > access to care leads me to two flaws in your position. > > First, in a society which lacks a physician (of which we do have > examples) the average lifespan falls due to many other factors (in > particular war related death, sanitation, and famine). [SNIP] Firstly, a doctor, GP or medical practitioner is not a physician. Remember what I said about multiple specialties? > >If you have a serious problem, your doctor or GP will refer > >you to a specialist. If after many years of going in circles with monthly > >specialist consultation, you still get nowhere, one of them may refer you to > >a physician. A Physician is like a specialist but with multiple specialties; People see medical doctors for treatment, and not physicians. If Baha'u'llah/Effendi wanted to make a medical prescription for alcohol accessible to those who needed it, he/they would have simply said "medical practitioner" and not have limited choice of doctor to someone with multiple specialites (IE a physician) that only the head of a medical school would probably be able to refer. > Secondly, across the board people do not know in advance who does or > who does not have the genetic predisposition to becoming an alcoholic. [SNIP] That's because alcoholism is a psychological disorder where the gene only sets the initial psychological parameters. As confirmed by engineering studies of neural networks, the human brain generally overlays or alters apsects of its neurological structure according to repetition as it occurs in reinforcement by experience. [SNIP] > >Furthermore, blaming the substance and not the choice to abuse it is part of > >the problem. I can choose to have half a glass of red wine with my meal if > > You're presuming that we're all the same. No, I'm not. I'm presuming what Jung and numerous neural network engineers have found; we are the sum of our experiences - and this ultimately rewrites the psychology set by our original genetic blueprint. This is why twins, no matter how idententical in physiology, are always psychologically distinct, and often display different temperament. It is also why the "irresistable" urge to abuse alcohol is a sham. I've seen depressant addicts up close. They'd drink sewage if they thought it would put them to sleep. It's not a gene, it's a reluctance to accept reality. > That because you can handle > your beer, somehow the other people who can't are weaker than you. You > can't know this. And with genetics, the scientific evidence is against > you here. I don't buy the "weaker" vs "stronger" argument. That's how Eugenics was justified, and it is completely contradicted by what we have learned about neural networks. The genetic "predisposition" is based on a statistical correlation that does nothing to confirm cause. Statistical correlations do not establish cause. Thus the scientific evidence does not support any cause at the present time. The link between temperament and genetics is unclear. Half of the Myer-Briggs scales show a distribution that is identical to genetic distribution of dominant/recessive alleles. Yet, many people who score at one end of the scale, have made themselves quite comfortable living at the other end of the scale. This speaks to the power of neural networks to rebuild themselves after their own design. Cigarette smoking has several times the fatality of alcohol abuse, yet it is neglected. Why? [SNIP] > >What about malaria? The only reason AIDS gets more press is because it > >affects the rich and famous while malaria does not because the rich and [SNIP] > You're proposing that AIDs only affects the rich and > famous and not the 1.5 million africans who died last year? [SNIP] Where exactly did I say that AIDS does not affect the poor? ____________________________________________________________ Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the number@timothycasey.info to email. Philosophical Essays: http://timothycasey.info Speed Reading: http://speed-reading-comprehension.com Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security. Science & Geology: http://geologist-1011.com; http://geologist-1011.net Technical & Web Design: http://web-design-1011.com -- GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer today! From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Oct 5 22:17:19 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96A4D4B0B1D for ; Sun, 5 Oct 2008 22:17:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dxxEzRAJQD9M for ; Sun, 5 Oct 2008 22:17:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id A01554B0B18; Sun, 5 Oct 2008 22:17:17 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 21:17:42 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 21:53:40 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Reply-To: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" From: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai References: Subject: Medicos WAS:Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 12:53:04 +1000 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KmfI1-0000iE-DE X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-vF39TkC4aQd4CecBg4TG3LYFASG9ozJmgp7qIceUO2Y/nx5pvHh0USc8UzXzS5xTy6lcH7Wg8IhaJNv!kiQSARUyHp0rUn4pUp1NdTyeYwjVcCEozCZQG1Uw2KHEFEJkT2G7YCj8Asx2h4AlHhmJGMUYIg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25393 talk.religion.bahai:118470 alt.religion.bahai:21130 "Larry Gusaas" wrote in message news:sdadnaD4zakq7EHVnZ2dnUVZ_sPinZ2d@giganews.com... > Number Eleven - GPEMC!, 2008/09/25 10:27 PM: > > wrote in message > > news:HvOdnXMXPugzA0fVnZ2dnUVZ_srinZ2d@giganews.com... > > > > >> 1. The Baha'i Faith leaves provisions by which a physician may > >> prescribe daily red wine or anything else should it be deemed to > >> benefit our health. > >> > > > > Either the translation is wrong or the Baha'u'llah is making an impossibly > > tall order here. If you have a serious problem, your doctor or GP will refer > > you to a specialist. If after many years of going in circles with monthly > > specialist consultation, you still get nowhere, one of them may refer you to > > a physician. A Physician is like a specialist but with multiple specialties; > > an advantage when dealing with diseases that are routinely misdiagnosed and > > referred to the wrong specialist. Most people never meet a physician in > > their entire lifetime as they often wind up in teaching, and extremely rare > > diseases usually kill you long before they are likely to be diagnosed. > > > Huh? Maybe in your small part of the world. My GP is a Physician. If I > want to look up his phone number in the Yellow pages and look under > Doctors, there are no listings. It say see Physicians & Surgeons. Not every country of the world is one of the United States of America. In Australia, if you want to find a physician - good luck! Doctors on the other hand are so common here that there's one in every other strip mall. But if you have a rare disease such as the one that expresses Graves disease and lecithin allergy as symptoms, God help you! Does your "physician" know the disease that expresses both Graves disease and lecithin allergy as symptoms? If he doesn't, I'd suggest he is most certainly *not* a physician. ____________________________________________________________ Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the number@timothycasey.info to email. Philosophical Essays: http://timothycasey.info Speed Reading: http://speed-reading-comprehension.com Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security. Science & Geology: http://geologist-1011.com; http://geologist-1011.net Technical & Web Design: http://web-design-1011.com -- GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer today! From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Oct 5 22:50:55 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35DF04B0754 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 2008 22:50:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id beeWxZD7mru5 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 2008 22:50:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vbahr.telecomitalia.it (host27-77-static.106-82-b.business.telecomitalia.it [82.106.77.27]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 699BE4B05D1 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 2008 22:50:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 02:51:42 +0000 From: "Kiely Swetnam" X-Mailer: The Bat! (3.61.03) Professional Reply-To: Kiely Swetnam X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <8116030147.20081006024714@bcgnetwork.com> To: Subject: You have 1 neww message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------6B547EED397C79" ------------6B547EED397C79 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable New casiiino http://0tpz0w.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pMb6n6f3py9QNGF2bT-9fUMqD2G7tg6KJb0Ju= V6ymZPQgx4FPbaHOox0sHVrsrFwhBQM42Ea8EZ5f5htGTjmFug/ue3mwfb4ycr.html =20 =20 Lines he makes it clear that he knew of the wanderings could never have reached the quick of his nature could get a meal down on canal street for a quarterunderstand mysteries. so then the athenians were the first me, and i watched him, our one faint hope of salvation,. ------------6B547EED397C79 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =09 =09 =20 =09=09

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so then the atheni= ans were the first me, and i watched him,
our one faint hope of salva= tion,.

------------6B547EED397C79-- From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Oct 5 23:22:53 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8537E4B0A4E for ; Sun, 5 Oct 2008 23:22:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aiyKShgepjxI for ; Sun, 5 Oct 2008 23:22:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id D71A54B0A58; Sun, 5 Oct 2008 23:22:52 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 22:23:26 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 23:02:10 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-2.4.2 (20060627) (Debian) at motzarella.org From: Larry Gusaas Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Medicos WAS:Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 21:01:52 -0600 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: X-Auth-Sender: U2FsdGVkX1/gnwyGdtEWHNww5Fc+tRP1zciioJFRZ4Y= Cancel-Lock: sha1:wTOY6k9EsHEEAnTus5uoiN6vKLo= User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Macintosh/20080914) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KmgMI-0006BO-Pb X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-cUS3wlx+KI1E0a/6caU1aa60ZyxNHeBl+8ZmQJwdnvZcdtXCT4fdr/VX94ftCnVcYPzNe3lerBPVmLe!hA0GTBxuh/Mn6dudMFQ+X4MsqywpY6ySrTesCaGs2szh6e+4Z+r+WwYwKciw+NXIuES6/R4epA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25394 Number Eleven - GPEMC!, 2008/10/05 8:53 PM: > "Larry Gusaas" wrote in message > >> Huh? Maybe in your small part of the world. My GP is a Physician. If I >> want to look up his phone number in the Yellow pages and look under >> Doctors, there are no listings. It say see Physicians & Surgeons. >> > > Not every country of the world is one of the United States of America. In > Australia, if you want to find a physician - good luck! Doctors on the other > hand are so common here that there's one in every other strip mall. But if > you have a rare disease such as the one that expresses Graves disease and > lecithin allergy as symptoms, God help you! My country is not part of the United States of America. Your difficulty in finding a physician in Australia has nothing to do with the accuracy of the translation. -- Larry I. Gusaas Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Mon Oct 6 17:59:00 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 737C04B08D6 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 17:59:00 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vlUMG218luT7 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 17:58:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id B73534B08E7; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 17:58:59 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 16:58:58 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 07:26:32 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 04:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: 64g2000hsu.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.2.209; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KmoEJ-0001Xk-9U X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-wO5eAWty/5WwdA9g3awhXwVxbkcLUHmT7I9ojF1D0fDOjjCaxOWiJcm4Q79XiIFse4bwQYQri1HxQ9Z!vxPKf6e+VfsmC0vSC7+8hY2OTwcen1z11fFaGmcSgz2BMWrF13+bt7Sdu5sXzZwzpfqhTNhg2g== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118482 alt.religion.bahai:21135 soc.religion.bahai:25395 Hi Timothy. You say it is beautiful, and in my opinion it is. But part of its beauty is its reasonable nature, its inherent truth. "...cautious of arbitrary proscription" Me too. Why do you bring that up? > ...rejecting concepts such as > infallibility. I thought we just went through this. Where was the problem? --Kent On Oct 5, 9:18=A0pm, "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" wrote: > "compx2" wrote in message > > news:LZOdnf3eiuGJ8EDVnZ2dnUVZ_oPinZ2d@giganews.com... > > > > > Hi again, Tim. > > > I am having great difficulty posting here, having tried to post this > > one several times as well as others. > > > The issue of infallibility has been discussed around here several > > times in my years reading this forum. =A0I suggest that if you want to > > seriously discuss the issue further we should start a new thread. > > > But as a Baha'i I have an obligation to understand the usage of the > > word in relation to the institutions of the Faith and the Central > > Figures. =A0I have reconciled it myself with an understanding of the > > purpose of God's revelation, that God works in broad strokes. =A0In Her > > revelation She has provided a matrix of understanding, the elimination > > of prejudice, spiritual solution to economic problems, progressive > > revelation from God, independent investigation... =A0All of Her > > revelation cannot be empirically verified, but the promise that should > > we adopt these principles and follow Her proscriptions we will become > > better people and attract Her confirmations. > > I believe this is a major covenant between God and humanity, a major > > connection that can only benefit humanity, and each of us personally. > > > That is infallible. > > > > --Kent > > [SNIP] > > I think that's beautiful Kent. Although my experience leads me to somewha t > different beliefs, I have always agreed with the major principles of the > Baha'i Faith - such as those you have mentioned. > > However, I am particularly because every > human being already knows how to correctly derive a just proscription. We > can all put ourselves in the shoes of others an empathise with them, and we > all know how to find out which expectations are universal and which are t he > product of culture or temperament. I think that the key here is good will , > consultation, and due diligence. Very simple compared to a code of laws - > even if it is intended only for consumption as "a choice wine". > > We also have a rich enough culture to know how to prevent schism - As far as > I can tell, the Royal Society was the first to achieve this by abolishing > the role of doctrinal authority and rejecting concepts such as > infallibility. > > ____________________________________________________________ > Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the num...@timothycasey.info to email. > Philosophical Essays:http://timothycasey.info > Speed Reading:http://speed-reading-comprehension.com > Software:http://fieldcraft.biz;Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security. > Science & Geology:http://geologist-1011.com;http://geologist-1011.net > Technical & Web Design:http://web-design-1011.com > -- > GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. Seewww.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC > The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. > If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM > Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer today!- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Mon Oct 6 17:59:06 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51D374B08D6 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 17:59:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mokxivxiy-7B for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 17:59:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 3493C4B0C44; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 17:59:05 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 16:59:06 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 07:36:57 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: "Enty Ell" Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai References: Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Organization: virginmedia.com Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 12:36:29 +0100 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KmoOU-0002Lv-Ah X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-BESMGJzuJIcGa/9AzB08/jaPI1VsYsd8Wbbm0rzCkEpMcpCWf7jwqQNf//CDMqU0jI9VwFMBGLcmPwa!6VlEK+HLNhxN5Ob3/XoZAxAKMv80fuDpOr8lMNljzQMEHw8sVi+QRirg9M4WcmC7Wz3SXLziHA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25396 talk.religion.bahai:118483 alt.religion.bahai:21136 "divers" - archaic adjective meaning many and different! Also a plural noun in modern use. Cheers Mike "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" wrote in message news:YridnTa_G9Sl6HTVnZ2dnUVZ_s3inZ2d@giganews.com... > wrote in message > news:qNWdnbZE5b1ZzEDVnZ2dnUVZ_sbinZ2d@giganews.com... >> >> >> >Either the translation is wrong or the Baha'u'llah is making an > impossibly >> >tall order here. If you have a serious problem, your doctor or GP will > refer >> >you to a specialist. If after many years of going in circles with >> >monthly >> >specialist consultation, you still get nowhere, one of them may refer >> >you > to >> >a physician. A Physician is like a specialist but with multiple > specialties; >> >an advantage when dealing with diseases that are routinely misdiagnosed > and >> >> The first premise of your argument that the translation is wrong only > > Not a premise but a contingency. > >> reveals either a lack of knowledge of the Baha'i Faith, persian or >> lack of exposure to the Guardians translations.[SNIP] > > This still doesn't answer the dilemma - but if you only look at things one > contingency at a time, you miss the dilemma. By the way, my exposure to > the > Guardian's translations is sufficient to know that they are riddled with > errors. For example, "divers" is a plural noun, while the adjective is, > "diverse". You don't need any Persian to pick mistakes like this, nor do > you > need any Persian to know the difference between a doctor and a physician. > >> "the use of alcohol is permitted if it is prescribed by a physician >> for treatment purposes" >> (Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 350) > > The Guardian uses the word, "physician", and none of: > > General Practitioner > Medical Practitioner > [Medical] Specialist > [Medical] Doctor > >> >referred to the wrong specialist. Most people never meet a physician in >> >their entire lifetime as they often wind up in teaching, and extremely > rare >> >diseases usually kill you long before they are likely to be diagnosed. >> >> The second premise that some may never find physicians or have >> access to care leads me to two flaws in your position. >> >> First, in a society which lacks a physician (of which we do have >> examples) the average lifespan falls due to many other factors (in >> particular war related death, sanitation, and famine). > [SNIP] > > Firstly, a doctor, GP or medical practitioner is not a physician. Remember > what I said about multiple specialties? > >> >If you have a serious problem, your doctor or GP will refer >> >you to a specialist. If after many years of going in circles with >> >monthly >> >specialist consultation, you still get nowhere, one of them may refer >> >you > to >> >a physician. A Physician is like a specialist but with multiple > specialties; > > People see medical doctors for treatment, and not physicians. If > Baha'u'llah/Effendi wanted to make a medical prescription for alcohol > accessible to those who needed it, he/they would have simply said "medical > practitioner" and not have limited choice of doctor to someone with > multiple > specialites (IE a physician) that only the head of a medical school would > probably be able to refer. > >> Secondly, across the board people do not know in advance who does or >> who does not have the genetic predisposition to becoming an alcoholic. > > [SNIP] > > That's because alcoholism is a psychological disorder where the gene only > sets the initial psychological parameters. As confirmed by engineering > studies of neural networks, the human brain generally overlays or alters > apsects of its neurological structure according to repetition as it occurs > in reinforcement by experience. > > [SNIP] > >> >Furthermore, blaming the substance and not the choice to abuse it is >> >part > of >> >the problem. I can choose to have half a glass of red wine with my meal > if >> >> You're presuming that we're all the same. > > No, I'm not. I'm presuming what Jung and numerous neural network engineers > have found; we are the sum of our experiences - and this ultimately > rewrites > the psychology set by our original genetic blueprint. This is why twins, > no > matter how idententical in physiology, are always psychologically > distinct, > and often display different temperament. It is also why the "irresistable" > urge to abuse alcohol is a sham. I've seen depressant addicts up close. > They'd drink sewage if they thought it would put them to sleep. It's not a > gene, it's a reluctance to accept reality. > >> That because you can handle >> your beer, somehow the other people who can't are weaker than you. You >> can't know this. And with genetics, the scientific evidence is against >> you here. > > I don't buy the "weaker" vs "stronger" argument. That's how Eugenics was > justified, and it is completely contradicted by what we have learned about > neural networks. The genetic "predisposition" is based on a statistical > correlation that does nothing to confirm cause. Statistical correlations > do > not establish cause. Thus the scientific evidence does not support any > cause > at the present time. > > The link between temperament and genetics is unclear. Half of the > Myer-Briggs scales show a distribution that is identical to genetic > distribution of dominant/recessive alleles. Yet, many people who score at > one end of the scale, have made themselves quite comfortable living at the > other end of the scale. This speaks to the power of neural networks to > rebuild themselves after their own design. > > Cigarette smoking has several times the fatality of alcohol abuse, yet it > is > neglected. Why? > > [SNIP] >> >What about malaria? The only reason AIDS gets more press is because it >> >affects the rich and famous while malaria does not because the rich and > [SNIP] >> You're proposing that AIDs only affects the rich and >> famous and not the 1.5 million africans who died last year? > [SNIP] > > Where exactly did I say that AIDS does not affect the poor? > > > ____________________________________________________________ > Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the number@timothycasey.info to email. > Philosophical Essays: http://timothycasey.info > Speed Reading: http://speed-reading-comprehension.com > Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security. > Science & Geology: http://geologist-1011.com; http://geologist-1011.net > Technical & Web Design: http://web-design-1011.com > -- > GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC > The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. > If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM > Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer today! > > > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Mon Oct 6 17:59:32 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 533C34B0C46 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 17:59:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FNkdbL6nfmtE for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 17:59:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 8A5114B0C4B; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 17:59:31 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 16:59:48 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 12:13:57 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Cc:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=lcwCP6goRy8yhBexzOSD4YzWUUSLcVkO23oYGp4lfk+J/+KoDnC+Juu5x7pSTbvdEJvmGsbyy7vvCDwlTyNiAD3soGPchoZGJ/Pg31fSqm9aUDAlbr2vvDGmd5kCzyt3mZ76wD6yzKE6EhpDEJA8jmz+nbucezo9b38aWAQ9LzI= ; X-YMail-OSG: IHWfgmQVM1kanzTtlZhNnm80f7BnipDKdsmybIsj.QvRcvGQX_M7UABmAY_NJKGQhHwMIQdCQwlu1xsri_HcfVQLEv08iK.o.7P.CTziXhFU.INuxIcD0ybivy9t7Xszs.MiityyAVbPGAtUMHQ9ZllXsvNq8PNldI8tWwa0EMs6mc7hqw-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 Cc: bahai-faith@bcca.org From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 12:13:35 -0400 References: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KmsiW-0001wm-CS X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.084, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, RDNS_NONE 0.10, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-OD5IpwPFFdJNRr8uV/s+t8mU+WK6/wgLrLbTuiDeTtpfNOgrkU4/OY2ZLGfbAPjBSsoKRKNfnt9nbUi!BBqnhH4jHtUMyAQvqnkKLaUuR4b1YmInPg3cHFt9vlKJYxcsDmtxvLZtog/y+m1RAoiGUvVJ1w== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25397 Hi Tim and Kent- I am wondering about something. My understanding from the Writings and from what I have read from those scholars who have fluency in the original source languages say that the Manifestation has essential infallibility and He has conferred infallibility upon the Master who in turn conferred infallibility upon the Guardian and House of Justice. The Beloved Master gave us some knowledge about all this in several places. He explained essential infallibility and how certain holy souls are capable of acquiring this condition of conferred infallibility and are not subject to error. The argument you mention that has happened on discussions appeared to be about how the Master, Guardian and House of Justice are not inerrant but that the original word for infallibility actually meant "protection" or "sinlessness" I think. What I would like to know is what is the original word for "essential" and what is the original word for "infallibility". I'm somewhat confused by all this and also wondered about how English is translated back into the original sources languages. For example how is the word infallible in relation to the Master, Guardian and House of Justice translated back into Arabic or Persian? It strikes me strange that we can attribute total essential infallibility to the Manifestation who is without error and then when He appoints the Master and confers infallibility upon him that some will attribute an error to the Master or the Guardian. To me that would mean the Manifestation (God speaking to us) made an error in conferring infallibility upon the Master,etc. We are fallible and we then judge the Central Figures and that does not seem to me to be reasonable nor spiritual. Also Kent, where in the Writings, either in the source language or in any other language is the Manifestation referred to as "She"? I know that God is genderless but yet if the Manifestation said "He" then who are we to change it? regards, doug On Oct 5, 2008, at 9:18 PM, Number Eleven - GPEMC! wrote: > > "compx2" wrote in message > news:LZOdnf3eiuGJ8EDVnZ2dnUVZ_oPinZ2d@giganews.com... >> Hi again, Tim. >> >> I am having great difficulty posting here, having tried to post this >> one several times as well as others. >> >> The issue of infallibility has been discussed around here several >> times in my years reading this forum. I suggest that if you want to >> seriously discuss the issue further we should start a new thread. >> >> But as a Baha'i I have an obligation to understand the usage of the >> word in relation to the institutions of the Faith and the Central >> Figures. I have reconciled it myself with an understanding of the >> purpose of God's revelation, that God works in broad strokes. In Her >> revelation She has provided a matrix of understanding, the >> elimination >> of prejudice, spiritual solution to economic problems, progressive >> revelation from God, independent investigation... All of Her >> revelation cannot be empirically verified, but the promise that >> should >> we adopt these principles and follow Her proscriptions we will become >> better people and attract Her confirmations. >> I believe this is a major covenant between God and humanity, a major >> connection that can only benefit humanity, and each of us personally. >> >> That is infallible. >> >>> --Kent > [SNIP] > > I think that's beautiful Kent. Although my experience leads me to > somewhat > different beliefs, I have always agreed with the major principles of > the > Baha'i Faith - such as those you have mentioned. > > However, I am particularly cautious of arbitrary proscription > because every > human being already knows how to correctly derive a just > proscription. We > can all put ourselves in the shoes of others an empathise with them, > and we > all know how to find out which expectations are universal and which > are the > product of culture or temperament. I think that the key here is good > will, > consultation, and due diligence. Very simple compared to a code of > laws - > even if it is intended only for consumption as "a choice wine". > > We also have a rich enough culture to know how to prevent schism - > As far as > I can tell, the Royal Society was the first to achieve this by > abolishing > the role of doctrinal authority and rejecting concepts such as > infallibility. > > > ____________________________________________________________ > Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the number@timothycasey.info to email. > Philosophical Essays: http://timothycasey.info > Speed Reading: http://speed-reading-comprehension.com > Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, > Security. > Science & Geology: http://geologist-1011.com; http:// > geologist-1011.net > Technical & Web Design: http://web-design-1011.com > -- > GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC > The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. > If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM > Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer > today! > > > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Mon Oct 6 18:01:27 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DB804B0C9B for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 18:01:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id el-zv+KX4mk9 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 18:01:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id A0CA64B0C46; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 18:01:16 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 17:01:33 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 15:50:35 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: mikeran37@yahoo.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 12:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: k7g2000hsd.googlegroups.com; posting-host=76.214.135.108; posting-account=M_40MwoAAACezPB6m4wCKE4LAJjMzCeb User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kmw5z-0005oY-QW X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-0.302, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 2.30) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-Uu16Rqyxfm9x7fJ6ePiR7nZ4lCHq+do435SA3wZu/Z6nBsQmgcufc1Jj4iOk93j19KGrUo08kUX64nq!qLN+Mlvq6ymGLP1sU/UtT/aYrNKrHQzH6maZEbIOWAikqGTuYq30yB9+M1NjMcWJcdyJBenKuQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25398 By and large I agree with Doug. There may be some more minor issues which diverge with my viewpoint but really He's on the mark. People who espouse extreme tolerance and absolute love at all costs are often doing the most harm. True love and tolerance is submitting to God's will. I liken this to the pinnochio story where he figures out that parental rules and guides are there to protect you. >My religion is about tolerance, and your version of my religion is >plainly intolerant. Further, you invoke God as a punisher for what you >portray as universally harmful (alcohol) for no other reason than it >might be potentially harmful, sometimes, under some extreme >situations. See, now I don't see Doug's position that way. Not at all. You're marginalizing his position as extreme, when it's not. Doug: However science has already proven the harm from drinking even one drink. Kent: Absolutely false. No one has proven anything of the sort. I am reminded of Mullahs who teach that those who eat pork will turn into pigs. I'll refer you to my post in 'God's side.' But alcohol is officially classed as a carcinogen. That's not a Baha'i making this up, it's the science of our times. And I suggest you familiarize yourself with it before pairing Doug with a mullah. Mike From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Mon Oct 6 18:02:22 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 697044B005D for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 18:02:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zAaFRvw+GMUP for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 18:02:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 018E64B0C64; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 18:02:19 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 17:02:30 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 12:26:16 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=1Cb463CY8fSseKddJcXjp/3KmdWY4XL8KKvuNhQS4APsfvtrtKQW9/0oxSpqlcWWQHkxnOmU14l7H9IA0ymU3G5+JcBzessX5CD0uJDkCt1Q+y/Ru4ewaxsrKNSl6L3t7PpCUUHfucgahFVLQATuvhTOZWxVOuIs/IGPHnXHzPY= ; X-YMail-OSG: IYvrRZgVM1kmGO9GlRwOb.O.32MubNvxKanRFk1fTPukPpHRJgZaYnYu_0nX_wd35JDmNGIL_RXaPc4EUNegSmLWKgeHyCcJjUQRxE3k3U5i39FwgnSzd.s9DYRug61WRu4- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-4-189926207 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 12:24:21 -0400 References: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-l8iO+IRnwnEmgB+9mC97yLuvQwayo9qR2ETsBinG2ikv4M40dzjylhjMmTbBiPydbv4N3FI6IWsQdhI!k7Gi064mP7mEUOFb3dpEzlHV4hoEmYKRuo82alGI0lHo3dlCT0smpclSO33ueljZGkTj5DLDOw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25399 --Apple-Mail-4-189926207 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I ran this alcohol issue by a few other friends and here is one =20 response (in blue) I received that makes sense to me- >> So called social drinking still causes damage. >> These days there is research which claims that there is some =20 >> benefit to low level "social" drinking, say 1 or 2 standard drinks =20= >> per week particularly in relation to heart disease. Red wine in =20 >> particular is claimed to be of benefit as preventing heart disease =20= >> due to minor components of the red wine. >> However, research with respect to driving skills shows impaired =20 >> judgment and response times even after one standard drink. > The young adults believe it is wrong to arrest someone for > breaking an alcohol law when they are drinking or smoking pot in their > own home and not hurting anyone. >> Ask them what rates as not hurting anyone? >> The expenditure on drugs and alcohol means it does not get spent on =20= >> good nutrition, clothes for children/spouse, education of children. > The young also believe we should not > have laws about adultery, social drinking and use of drugs, or > restricting driving and alcohol and other things to those under 21. > They believe the only laws we should have are laws about things that > harm others but not if we harm ourselves. > Firstly, adultery involves more than oneself. There are the members =20= > of the existing family, the members of the new partner's family, any =20= > child produced. Humans require so much support during the early =20 > years which parents provide. New research is just discovering how =20 > important, not only the parents but also the extended family, are in =20= > raising children. > Secondly, the basis of restricting the driving age and alcohol is =20 > that the last part of the "brain" to develop are those involving =20 > rational thinking, judgment of right or wrong. Alcohol damages the =20 > development of new connections in the brain and some may never form. Here is another response-- There is a lot of information about how alcohol is bad for SOCIETY =20 whether it is legal or not. If one is arguing about freedom vs. laws, =20= then the statement by the Universal House of Justice is a good =20 resource. In Ocean, search for =93rights=94 and =93freedoms=94. = You=92ll find =20 it under =93Letters=94: 1988 Dec 29 Individual Rights and Freedoms. If the issue is whether alcohol is bad for society, however, look for =20= statistics at the website of Mothers Against Drunk Driving. Another =20 source is Alcoholics Anonymous. It is true that science is providing =20= information about physical harm to individuals but I think the =20 evidence is overwhelming that alcohol and drugs of any kind are =20 destructive to society. Marriages have been ruined, families torn =20 apart, abuse has been conducted and death has occurred all because =20 people want to drink or take illegal drugs. The evidence is not only =20= in statistics. It can be seen at any bar, in any home where drinking =20= has occurred, in movies, on TV (both fictional and non-fictional =20 accounts), in homeless shelters and in other places. So, I would say that forcing a law on people doesn=92t work=85that=92s =20= partly why they repealed the Prohibition Amendment. The amendment was =20= passed in 1919 and became law in 1920. It was repealed in 1933 during =20= the Great Depression when people in the city were more inclined to =20 drink. Islam countries typically prohibit alcohol consumption. It is illogical to expect that people will obey a Bah=E1'=ED law when = they =20 don=92t believe in Bah=E1'u'll=E1h but it might be possible to get them = to =20 see the harm that is done when one does make that choice. =46rom my understanding of problematic behavior it would seem that all =20= our problems are caused by unsatisfied needs, wants and desires. My =20 psychologist friend once explained to me the difference between these =20= three a "we need shelter, want a home and desire a castle" I also realize that we have physical, mental, emotional and spiritual =20= needs, all of which must be satisfied or we will have problems. In addition I contemplate the idea of purpose of our lives, such as =20 acquiring virtues so we can realize the overall purpose of knowing and =20= loving God, creating an ever-advancing civilization and establishing =20 love and unity in the world. Any behavior not related to this overall =20= purpose to me is wrong behavior. The use of alcohol and drugs, not =20 matter at what degree does not appear to me to be something helping us =20= realize that purpose because even if a doctor prescribes alcohol =20 there are other chemicals or methods that work as well or better =20 without creating any harmful effects. =46rom whatever view I look at this I simply cannot see any reason to =20= justify the use of these chemicals for pleasure, recreation or even =20 medicinally. regards, doug --Apple-Mail-4-189926207 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I ran this alcohol issue by a = few other friends and here is one response (in blue) I received that = makes sense to me-

So called social drinking still causes damage.
These = days there is research which claims that there is some benefit to low = level "social" drinking, say 1 or 2 standard drinks per week = particularly in relation to heart disease. Red wine in particular is = claimed to be of benefit as preventing heart disease due to minor = components of the red wine.
However, research with respect to driving = skills shows impaired judgment and response times even after one = standard drink.

 The young adults believe it is wrong to arrest = someone for 
breaking an alcohol law when they are drinking or = smoking pot in their 
own home and not hurting = anyone. 

Ask them what rates as not hurting anyone?
The = expenditure on drugs and alcohol means it does not get spent on good = nutrition, clothes for children/spouse, education of = children.

The = young also believe we should not 
have laws about adultery, = social drinking and use of drugs, or 
restricting driving and = alcohol and other things to those under 21. 
They believe the = only laws we should have are laws about things that 
harm others = but not if we harm ourselves.

Firstly, adultery involves more than oneself. There are = the members of the existing family, the members of the new partner's = family, any child produced. Humans require so much support during the = early years which parents provide. New research is just discovering how = important, not only the parents but also the extended family, are in = raising children.
Secondly, the basis of restricting the driving age = and alcohol is that the last part of the "brain" to develop are those = involving rational thinking, judgment of right or wrong. Alcohol damages = the development of new connections in the brain and some may never = form.

Here is another response--
There is a = lot of information about how alcohol is bad for SOCIETY whether it is = legal or not.  If one is arguing about freedom vs. laws, then the = statement by the Universal House of Justice is a good resource.  =  In Ocean, search for =93rights=94 and =93freedoms=94.  You=92ll= find it under =93Letters=94: 1988 Dec 29 Individual Rights and = Freedoms.

If the issue is whether alcohol is bad for society, = however, look for statistics at the website of Mothers Against Drunk = overall purpose of knowing and loving God, creating an ever-advancing = civilization and establishing love and unity in the world.  Any = behavior not related to this overall purpose to me is wrong behavior. =  The use of alcohol and drugs, not matter at what degree does not = appear to me to be something helping us realize that purpose because = even if a doctor  prescribes alcohol there are other chemicals or = methods that work as well or better without creating any harmful = effects.

=46rom whatever view I look at this I = simply cannot see any reason to justify the use of these chemicals for = pleasure, recreation or even = medicinally.

regards,
doug

= --Apple-Mail-4-189926207-- From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Mon Oct 6 18:02:28 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD7BD4B0906 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 18:02:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sK25X92u-yYt for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 18:02:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id EF93F4B0BAB; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 18:02:27 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? From: mikeran37@yahoo.com Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 12:19:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5e6dnRa2YfKZFnfVnZ2dnUVZ_rHinZ2d@giganews.com> References: Organization: http://groups.google.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai X-Trace: sv3-flOODzdxbPcQMqEAbLS44LbfGOEK9C8CftgefgFscOqjiNDirl064ukkCMOxR90t4N3KQpL8GigPBuP!3PMQkGwKAOIhEZD/baX3n63siGRhnALiQ1bbOKViQAVTy8asi9HdLdnjsttdLnJdIdTBEIdb0w== NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 17:02:43 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 15:25:12 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: q5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com; posting-host=76.214.135.108; posting-account=M_40MwoAAACezPB6m4wCKE4LAJjMzCeb User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KmvhZ-0003X7-Hl X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=1.993, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, BODY_ENHANCEMENT 0.31, FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 2.30, IMPOTENCE 1.89, RDNS_NONE 0.10) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamScore: s X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 X-Original-Bytes: 9556 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25400 talk.religion.bahai:118485 alt.religion.bahai:21137 Tim, there's nothing new in your latest post, and you still haven't established any level of credibility with me. I keep trying to drop this subject but it still calls out to me. Why argue with Baha'is about somthing which the other 6 million Baha'is take as fact? A physician, doctor, medical doctor..etc. can prescribe alchohol to a Baha'i. There is nothing against this in our faith. Since we're on the subject of Alcohol and it's health benefits, I'd like to point out a few of it's deleterious effects as well. 1. Alcohol and Cancer The International Agency for Research on Cancer (Centre International de Recherche sur le Cancer) of the World Health Organization has classified alcohol as a Group 1 carcinogen. Its evaluation states, "There is sufficient evidence for the carcinogenicity of alcoholic beverages in humans.=85 Alcoholic beverages are carcinogenic to humans (Group 1)."[5] The NIAAA states that "Although epidemiologic studies have found a clear association between alcohol consumption and development of certain types of cancer, study findings are often inconsistent and may vary by country and by type of cancer."[3] 2. Head and neck cancer Head and neck cancers, as used in this article, mean cancers of the mouth, esophagus, pharynx and larynx. The U.S. National Cancer Institute states "Drinking alcohol increases the risk of cancers of the mouth, esophagus, pharynx, larynx, and liver in men and women, =85 In general, these risks increase after about one daily drink for women and two daily drinks for men. (A drink is defined as 12 ounces of regular beer, 5 ounces of wine, or 1.5 ounces of 80-proof liquor.) =85 Also, using alcohol with tobacco is riskier than using either one alone, because it further increases the chances of getting cancers of the mouth, throat, and esophagus."[23] 3. Breast cancer The Committee on Carcinogenicity of Chemicals in Food, Consumer Products concludes, "The new research estimates that a woman drinking an average of two units of alcohol per day has a lifetime risk of developing breast cancer 8% higher than a woman who drinks an average of one unit of alcohol per day. The risk of breast cancer further increases with each additional drink consumed per day. =85 The research also concludes that approximately 6% (between 3.2% and 8.8%) of breast cancers reported in the UK each year could be prevented if drinking was reduced to a very low level (i.e. less than 1 unit/week)."[42] 4. Presumed mechanism of action Alcohol and cancer.Boffetta P, Hashibe M. International Agency for Research on Cancer, Lyon, France. boffetta@iarc.fr A causal association has been established between alcohol consumption and cancers of the oral cavity, pharynx, larynx, oesophagus, liver, colon, rectum, and, in women, breast; an association is suspected for cancers of the pancreas and lung. Evidence suggests that the effect of alcohol is modulated by polymorphisms in genes encoding enzymes for ethanol metabolism (eg, alcohol dehydrogenases, aldehyde dehydrogenases, and cytochrome P450 2E1), folate metabolism, and DNA repair. The mechanisms by which alcohol consumption exerts its carcinogenic effect have not been defined fully, although plausible events include: a genotoxic effect of acetaldehyde, the main metabolite of ethanol; increased oestrogen concentration, which is important for breast carcinogenesis; a role as solvent for tobacco carcinogens; production of reactive oxygen species and nitrogen species; and changes in folate metabolism. Alcohol consumption is increasing in many countries and is an important cause of cancer worldwide. PMID: 16455479 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] I find it interesting that the same recommendations for obtaining a beneficial effect on the heart also may lead to some very nasty cancers. Putting aside the genetic issues. Do the benefits outweigh the risks? The answer is that there is no cookie cutter recommendation. If you're a smoker, for sure, you don't want to be drinking as well. Perhaps you work in a factory that kicks out small dust particles, in which case you'd be an idiot to drink. Only your doctor knows your medical history and between the two of you, you can decide is drinking right or wrong. Universally heavy drinking is noted to have bad effects accross the board and when you average it out, I think many people who don't see theirselves as heavy drinkers fall into this category. For the same reason that people have a weight issue and don't appreciate how much we actually eat, drinkers rarely give you an accurate number. Here is testimony to that fact. "Knowing Risk Factors Can Help Identify Elderly Alcoholics for Treatment Press Release - June 27, 2003 University Park, Pa. --- Less than half of alcoholics over 65 are diagnosed, a Penn State study has shown, because often the telltale signs of alcohol dependence are masked by patient denial and seeming good health. "Denial may be especially problematic for other groups, including those with incomes greater than 200 percent of poverty and those aged 75 and older," she adds. "In each of these groups, the diagnosed rate is higher than the self-reported rate." Shea notes, "The number of alcoholic elderly can be expected to increase due to the sheer number of baby boomers entering old age. To compound the problem, this generation has higher rates of substance abuse than any previous generation. The costs of alcoholism and its consequences in the elderly have the potential to create an enormous financial burden for the Medicare program. It's imperative that both health care providers and policy makers understand which elder groups are at risk and may be under-diagnosed and therefore prime screening targets." The study was supported by the Penn State program, Interdisciplinary Training in Gerontology, which is funded by the National Institute on Aging." Are you going to hell if you drink? Certainly not. Physical punishment for non-prescribed alcohol use comes in many forms, be it cancer, addiction, domestic violence, liver disease, erectile dysfunction, cost..etc. Just because you can find one or two good things about a substance doesn't make it acceptable in every day use. There are plenty of beneficial effects to alot of toxins and poisons that are used to treat cancer. It doesn't mean that we employ these to benefit our everyday health. The daily wine argument fails in the light of two considerations: 1. you risk cancer, and liver disease because you don't know your specific tolerance for alcohol, 2. Grape juice will do the same thing without the same risks. But I like to believe that a sane person who has full knowledge of the ills associated with drinking will find alternative methods of relaxation. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Mon Oct 6 18:02:36 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 204A64B0C64 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 18:02:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wjqqkrer8XYS for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 18:02:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id E40D64B0C65; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 18:02:35 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance From: mikeran37@yahoo.com Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 12:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> Organization: http://groups.google.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai X-Trace: sv3-X4odTG5pfCIi4QtUoHhRUTIZlAYsFU71har+HIzlyFq/iddTOHSbkcyks4knrN5uKAZY3UnKwpMw/Dg!uVt5jBCqwoFJBnqyFgVi7wNMktususijP3mgc339z58cp6li/NQIUJ9Y+MY7+XUcYUQgawkQ3A== NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 17:02:55 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 15:50:35 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: k7g2000hsd.googlegroups.com; posting-host=76.214.135.108; posting-account=M_40MwoAAACezPB6m4wCKE4LAJjMzCeb User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kmw5z-0005oY-QW X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-0.302, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 2.30) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 X-Original-Bytes: 3284 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25401 By and large I agree with Doug. There may be some more minor issues which diverge with my viewpoint but really He's on the mark. People who espouse extreme tolerance and absolute love at all costs are often doing the most harm. True love and tolerance is submitting to God's will. I liken this to the pinnochio story where he figures out that parental rules and guides are there to protect you. >My religion is about tolerance, and your version of my religion is >plainly intolerant. Further, you invoke God as a punisher for what you >portray as universally harmful (alcohol) for no other reason than it >might be potentially harmful, sometimes, under some extreme >situations. See, now I don't see Doug's position that way. Not at all. You're marginalizing his position as extreme, when it's not. Doug: However science has already proven the harm from drinking even one drink. Kent: Absolutely false. No one has proven anything of the sort. I am reminded of Mullahs who teach that those who eat pork will turn into pigs. I'll refer you to my post in 'God's side.' But alcohol is officially classed as a carcinogen. That's not a Baha'i making this up, it's the science of our times. And I suggest you familiarize yourself with it before pairing Doug with a mullah. Mike From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Mon Oct 6 20:14:21 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 756934B0B0C for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 20:14:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZKBoZOtnPY6o for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 20:14:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 02F094B0B44; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 20:14:21 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:14:52 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:13:59 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-2.4.2 (20060627) (Debian) at motzarella.org From: Larry Gusaas Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:13:29 -0600 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider References: X-Auth-Sender: U2FsdGVkX191BKvUEd6PXC7+h3bAHIPtU9pely7W5FU= Cancel-Lock: sha1:wMFHlIfJxirMKnDjsZrRqN6bkSA= User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Macintosh/20080914) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kn0D5-00020Y-CQ X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-U8rRhzfPEi1ihX1kP7BnyO4n7zxocqOq+QpTotgwhSbXONb3H+3uHvX6GHa/Qh7aPuPEOfQHTEa1Uwo!ZFDDEmdaTkjWzxSJWE2vwTarLJ8zL15K7VM1xEw4PktTW5xEPgdArpYIhldvNlqpUNzv0CPZkg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25402 Enty Ell, 2008/10/06 5:36 AM: > "divers" - archaic adjective meaning many and different! > > Also a plural noun in modern use. > Definition 2 from Websters (posted below) is not archaic. From a post that I made which hasn't appeared on the list: The Guardian correctly uses "divers" as an adjective. Here is the definition from the dictionary: Main Entry: 1di=C2=B7vers Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English divers, diverse -- more at DIVERSE 1 obsolete : different in kind or species : DIVERSE 2 : more than one but indefinite in number : SEVERAL, VARIOUS, SUNDRY "divers." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Mon Oct 6 21:16:40 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B94D34B0ADE for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 21:16:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ECsb-iq+rqh7 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 21:16:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id D68C64B0A14; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 21:16:37 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:16:34 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:10:20 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 18:06:56 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kn15c-0006B4-Pr X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-jrVJHfwkTHRo+lSGzaeM0ilKzkSBZHHwZzWzciArZHcgUCF+g6/NU0wiaE0lMqSvNtpcOnuXjjoaHBW!9u4AS9IkisPgFKhSc1TpgrYCNEYeRp2tHUQxg42lzOsjQU3IoLEnQ1pmQmur6GhGmpS6GHLH0A== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25403 Hi Doug. The reason I referred to God as "She" was to accomodate someone else. If you look at the message to which I was responding when I wrote it you will see that. This is the second time I have told you this. > My understanding from the Writings and from what I have read from > those scholars who have fluency in the original source languages ... The understanding I have is from my own independent investigation of truth. Whose truth do you think I will accept, my own investigation, or the truth you report from others that you respect? I would not respect myself, Doug, if I accepted your reported experts without investigating. So, for me, I would like to see what issues and points they make, not their conclusions. I can make my own conclusions if you can give me the verifiable facts. So I find your reasoning that, since Baha'u'llah was infallible anyone He says is infallible is therefore infallible, less than convincing. I would go into again, but I don't think you read what I write. If you are interested, I recently wrote something to Tim that he found "beautiful" that explained a little of my view of infallibility. If you would like to discuss it with me further, please let's start there. I know your view, you do not know mine. --Kent On Oct 6, 12:13=A0pm, Douglas McAdam wrote: > Hi Tim and Kent- > I am wondering about something. > My understanding from the Writings and from what I have read from =A0 > those scholars who have fluency in the original source languages say =A0 > that the Manifestation has essential infallibility and He has =A0 > conferred infallibility upon the Master who in turn conferred =A0 > infallibility upon the Guardian and House of Justice. =A0 The Beloved =A0 > Master gave us some knowledge about all this in several places. =A0He =A0 > explained essential infallibility and how certain holy souls are =A0 > capable of acquiring this condition of conferred infallibility and are =A0 > not subject to error. =A0The argument you mention that has happened on =A0 > discussions appeared to be about how the Master, Guardian and House of =A0 > Justice are not inerrant but that the original word for infallibility =A0 > actually meant "protection" or "sinlessness" I think. > > What I would like to know is what is the original word for "essential" =A0 > and what is the original word for "infallibility". > I'm somewhat confused by all this and also wondered about how English =A0 > is translated back into the original sources languages. =A0For example =A0 > how is the word infallible in relation to the Master, Guardian and =A0 > House of Justice translated back into Arabic or Persian? > > It strikes me strange that we can attribute total essential =A0 > infallibility to the Manifestation who is without error and then when =A0 > He appoints the Master and confers infallibility upon him that some =A0 > will attribute an error to the Master or the Guardian. =A0To me that =A0 > would mean the Manifestation (God speaking to us) made an error in =A0 > conferring infallibility upon the Master,etc. > > We are fallible and we then judge the Central Figures and that does =A0 > not seem to me to be reasonable nor spiritual. > > Also Kent, where in the Writings, either in the source language or in =A0 > any other language is the Manifestation referred to as "She"? =A0 I know =A0 > that God is genderless but yet if the Manifestation said "He" then who =A0 > are we to change it? > > regards, > doug > > On Oct 5, 2008, at 9:18 PM, Number Eleven - GPEMC! wrote: > > > > > > > "compx2" wrote in message > >news:LZOdnf3eiuGJ8EDVnZ2dnUVZ_oPinZ2d@giganews.com... > >> Hi again, Tim. > > >> I am having great difficulty posting here, having tried to post this > >> one several times as well as others. > > >> The issue of infallibility has been discussed around here several > >> times in my years reading this forum. =A0I suggest that if you want to > >> seriously discuss the issue further we should start a new thread. > > >> But as a Baha'i I have an obligation to understand the usage of the > >> word in relation to the institutions of the Faith and the Central > >> Figures. =A0I have reconciled it myself with an understanding of the > >> purpose of God's revelation, that God works in broad strokes. =A0In He r > >> revelation She has provided a matrix of understanding, the =A0 > >> elimination > >> of prejudice, spiritual solution to economic problems, progressive > >> revelation from God, independent investigation... =A0All of Her > >> revelation cannot be empirically verified, but the promise that =A0 > >> should > >> we adopt these principles and follow Her proscriptions we will become > >> better people and attract Her confirmations. > >> I believe this is a major covenant between God and humanity, a major > >> connection that can only benefit humanity, and each of us personally. > > >> That is infallible. > > >>> --Kent > > [SNIP] > > > I think that's beautiful Kent. Although my experience leads me to =A0 > > somewhat > > different beliefs, I have always agreed with the major principles of =A0 > > the > > Baha'i Faith - such as those you have mentioned. > > > However, I am particularly cautious of arbitrary proscription =A0 > > because every > > human being already knows how to correctly derive a just =A0 > > proscription. We > > can all put ourselves in the shoes of others an empathise with them, =A0 > > and we > > all know how to find out which expectations are universal and which =A0 > > are the > > product of culture or temperament. I think that the key here is good =A0 > > will, > > consultation, and due diligence. Very simple compared to a code of =A0 > > laws - > > even if it is intended only for consumption as "a choice wine". > > > We also have a rich enough culture to know how to prevent schism - =A0 > > As far as > > I can tell, the Royal Society was the first to achieve this by =A0 > > abolishing > > the role of doctrinal authority and rejecting concepts such as > > infallibility. > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the num...@timothycasey.info to email. > > Philosophical Essays:http://timothycasey.info > > Speed Reading:http://speed-reading-comprehension.com > > Software:http://fieldcraft.biz;Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, =A0 > > Security. > > Science & Geology:http://geologist-1011.com;http:// > > geologist-1011.net > > Technical & Web Design:http://web-design-1011.com > > -- > > GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. Seewww.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC > > The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. > > If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM > > Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer =A0 > > today!- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Mon Oct 6 21:16:46 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFDFF4B0A14 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 21:16:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p-NePzHs2eDr for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 21:16:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 50B394B0ADE; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 21:16:46 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:16:44 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:15:53 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 18:15:43 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kn1B1-0006d8-DB X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-u4C5HSAgvwRpAJWaHrdffy3PmCbfdd/MsRVbniSexmTkz5hGb+NYHQrdc9/RGWLYqQ3z4aB+BV0YPS3!Z+faC2+zJsd5Ag9TwYmghvemOM1npRbymDabKRfveocQBzsMjY6l5H5WNXmwkN3zpKLCESazNg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25404 Hi Mike, > I'll refer you to my post in 'God's side.' But alcohol is officially > classed as a carcinogen. Would I be marginalizing your position if I asked if you intend to outlaw every carcinogen? My point is about tolerance of non-Baha'is who do not follow Baha'i laws. What marginalizes Doug and you is your justifications for your intolerant position. I will read your other post now. --Kent On Oct 6, 3:50=A0pm, mikera...@yahoo.com wrote: > By and large I agree with Doug. There may be some more minor issues > which diverge with my viewpoint but really He's on the mark. > > =A0People who espouse extreme tolerance and absolute love at all costs > are often doing the most harm. True love and tolerance is submitting > to God's will. I liken this to the pinnochio story where he figures > out that parental rules and guides are there to protect you. > > >My religion is about tolerance, and your version of my religion is > >plainly intolerant. Further, you invoke God as a punisher for what you > >portray as universally harmful (alcohol) for no other reason than it > >might be potentially harmful, sometimes, under some extreme > >situations. > > =A0See, now I don't see Doug's position that way. Not at all. You're > marginalizing his position as extreme, when it's not. > > Doug: However science has already proven the harm from =A0drinking even > one drink. > > Kent: Absolutely false. =A0No one has proven anything of the sort. =A0I > am > reminded of Mullahs who teach that those who eat pork will turn into > pigs. > > I'll refer you to my post in 'God's side.' But alcohol is officially > classed as a carcinogen. That's not a Baha'i making this up, it's the > science of our times. And I suggest you familiarize yourself with it > before pairing Doug with a mullah. > > =A0Mike From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Mon Oct 6 21:43:21 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 799014B0A49 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 21:43:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d61Tt60ez29V for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 21:43:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 4A07F4B0B44; Mon, 6 Oct 2008 21:43:20 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:43:32 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:41:07 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 18:39:09 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <5e6dnRa2YfKZFnfVnZ2dnUVZ_rHinZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kn1ZQ-0008Hs-9R X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-BOqTTOemQEvUCxWldJAmNgJEu0XGxCUuNz/qQcdKQXIgI7U6Mq+jSGsLITTUxQjshu2MDWdqXELZsi6!PEbnA7XCrk3nFZP2ycxpqMsZ5VrABg3WbTqYPyzsjWGLQM05x/BxzEGBEGQQpJNRPynqmrZzBQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25405 talk.religion.bahai:118491 alt.religion.bahai:21139 Hi Mike, There is nothing in your post that convinces me that alcohol should be illegal. But then, it wouldn't bother me if it were illegal. I have not had an alcoholic drink since I declared myself a Baha'i some 20 years ago. The issue I have is that it should not be illegal or prohibited on the basis of the fact that those who voluntarily join the Baha'i Faith have vowed not to drink alcohol. If you want to urge Prohibition in the 21st century that is a political, not a religious, issue. --Kent On Oct 6, 3:19=A0pm, mikera...@yahoo.com wrote: > Tim, there's nothing new in your latest post, and you still haven't > established any level of credibility with me. I keep trying to drop > this subject but it still calls out to me. Why argue with Baha'is > about somthing which the other 6 million Baha'is take as fact? A > physician, doctor, medical doctor..etc. can prescribe alchohol to a > Baha'i. There is nothing against this in our faith. > > Since we're on the subject of Alcohol and it's health benefits, I'd > like to point out a few of it's deleterious effects as well. > > 1. Alcohol and Cancer > > The International Agency for Research on Cancer (Centre International > de Recherche sur le Cancer) of the World Health Organization has > classified alcohol as a Group 1 carcinogen. Its evaluation states, > "There is sufficient evidence for the carcinogenicity of alcoholic > beverages in humans.=85 Alcoholic beverages are carcinogenic to humans > (Group 1)."[5] > > The NIAAA states that "Although epidemiologic studies have found a > clear association between alcohol consumption and development of > certain types of cancer, study findings are often inconsistent and may > vary by country and by type of cancer."[3] > > 2. Head and neck cancer > > Head and neck cancers, as used in this article, mean cancers of the > mouth, esophagus, pharynx and larynx. The U.S. National Cancer > Institute states "Drinking alcohol increases the risk of cancers of > the mouth, esophagus, pharynx, larynx, and liver in men and women, =85 > In general, these risks increase after about one daily drink for women > and two daily drinks for men. (A drink is defined as 12 ounces of > regular beer, 5 ounces of wine, or 1.5 ounces of 80-proof liquor.) =85 > Also, using alcohol with tobacco is riskier than using either one > alone, because it further increases the chances of getting cancers of > the mouth, throat, and esophagus."[23] > > 3. Breast cancer > > The Committee on Carcinogenicity of Chemicals in Food, Consumer > Products concludes, "The new research estimates that a woman drinking > an average of two units of alcohol per day has a lifetime risk of > developing breast cancer 8% higher than a woman who drinks an average > of one unit of alcohol per day. The risk of breast cancer further > increases with each additional drink consumed per day. =85 The research > also concludes that approximately 6% (between 3.2% and 8.8%) of breast > cancers reported in the UK each year could be prevented if drinking > was reduced to a very low level (i.e. less than 1 unit/week)."[42] > > 4. Presumed mechanism of action > > Alcohol and cancer.Boffetta P, Hashibe M. > International Agency for Research on Cancer, Lyon, France. > boffe...@iarc.fr > > A causal association has been established between alcohol consumption > and cancers of the oral cavity, pharynx, larynx, oesophagus, liver, > colon, rectum, and, in women, breast; an association is suspected for > cancers of the pancreas and lung. Evidence suggests that the effect of > alcohol is modulated by polymorphisms in genes encoding enzymes for > ethanol metabolism (eg, alcohol dehydrogenases, aldehyde > dehydrogenases, and cytochrome P450 2E1), folate metabolism, and DNA > repair. The mechanisms by which alcohol consumption exerts its > carcinogenic effect have not been defined fully, although plausible > events include: a genotoxic effect of acetaldehyde, the main > metabolite of ethanol; increased oestrogen concentration, which is > important for breast carcinogenesis; a role as solvent for tobacco > carcinogens; production of reactive oxygen species and nitrogen > species; and changes in folate metabolism. Alcohol consumption is > increasing in many countries and is an important cause of cancer > worldwide. > > PMID: 16455479 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] > > I find it interesting that the same recommendations for obtaining a > beneficial effect on the heart also may lead to some very nasty > cancers. Putting aside the genetic issues. Do the benefits outweigh > the risks? The answer is that there is no cookie cutter > recommendation. If you're a smoker, for sure, you don't want to be > drinking as well. Perhaps you work in a factory that kicks out small > dust particles, in which case you'd be an idiot to drink. Only your > doctor knows your medical history and between the two of you, you can > decide is drinking right or wrong. > > Universally heavy drinking is noted to have bad effects accross the > board and when you average it out, I think many people who don't see > theirselves as heavy drinkers fall into this category. For the same > reason that people have a weight issue and don't appreciate how much > we actually eat, drinkers rarely give you an accurate number. Here is > testimony to that fact. > > "Knowing Risk Factors Can Help Identify Elderly Alcoholics for > Treatment > > Press Release - June 27, 2003 > > University Park, Pa. --- Less than half of alcoholics over 65 are > diagnosed, a Penn State study has shown, because often the telltale > signs of alcohol dependence are masked by patient denial and seeming > good health. > > "Denial may be especially problematic for other groups, including > those with incomes greater than 200 percent of poverty and those aged > 75 and older," she adds. "In each of these groups, the diagnosed rate > is higher than the self-reported rate." > Shea notes, "The number of alcoholic elderly can be expected to > increase due to the sheer number of baby boomers entering old age. To > compound the problem, this generation has higher rates of substance > abuse than any previous generation. The costs of alcoholism and its > consequences in the elderly have the potential to create an enormous > financial burden for the Medicare program. It's imperative that both > health care providers and policy makers understand which elder groups > are at risk and may be under-diagnosed and therefore prime screening > targets." > The study was supported by the Penn State program, Interdisciplinary > Training in Gerontology, which is funded by the National Institute on > Aging." > > =A0Are you going to hell if you drink? Certainly not. Physical > punishment for non-prescribed alcohol use comes in many forms, be it > cancer, addiction, domestic violence, liver disease, erectile > dysfunction, cost..etc. Just because you can find one or two good > things about a substance doesn't make it acceptable in every day use. > There are plenty of beneficial effects to alot of toxins and poisons > that are used to treat cancer. It doesn't mean that we employ these to > benefit our everyday health. The daily wine argument fails in the > light of two considerations: 1. you risk cancer, and liver disease > because you don't know your specific tolerance for alcohol, 2. Grape > juice will do the same thing without the same risks. > > But I like to believe that a sane person who has full knowledge of the > ills associated with drinking will find alternative methods of > relaxation. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Oct 7 14:20:34 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70DCE4B0B46 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 14:20:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eWZjZO8Um6dH for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 14:20:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id B21A94B0747; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 14:20:33 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 13:20:55 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 10:04:02 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: mikeran37@yahoo.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 07:03:49 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: 25g2000hsk.googlegroups.com; posting-host=76.214.135.108; posting-account=M_40MwoAAACezPB6m4wCKE4LAJjMzCeb User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KnDAK-0006wW-07 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=1.584, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 2.30, IMPOTENCE 1.89) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamScore: s X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-vSwaw/CadzXseeV00+SrIxSUEsapxhE+zhKDviyE5HYSf11K/iCemGlI/HuM612Ao2NfN3Nz2kdG7Np!EjDo9x/XpCp3RYWytzqZY9LSPKlHFBMbTK30I6uEMzQZWloJUbZPruQWZ8c0vj8ydYF7DYSPEg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25406 On Oct 6, 8:15=A0pm, compx2 wrote: > Hi Mike, > > > I'll refer you to my post in 'God's side.' But alcohol is officially > > classed as a carcinogen. > > Would I be marginalizing your position if I asked if you intend to > outlaw every carcinogen? > Before we go too far with this, let me be clear about my position. I have no intention of arguing that alcohol should be illegal. I do argue in favor of programs to discredit alcohol and regulations to limit where alcohol can be consumed. Like with smoking, I don't like the idea of sharing a resturant with people who are drinking, not because I think they're going to hell or anything else like that. But because I have all too often witnessed people becomming belligerant, loud and obnoxious. I don't want it around me, and as a family man, I don't want it around my children. What comes across as casually acceptable to you, is offensive and ruinous of the atmosphere to me. I don't want to deal with it on the roads should I have the misfortune of being out late on a friday. Why should I tolerate it in my life? I don't and beyond the near misses on the road and bad resturaunts it has little bearing on me. What I don't want is my child being indoctrinated by a culture and television ads that paint alcohol as the manly thing or presented as the drug of longevity. These are patent lies. Our science says otherwise, it says that alcohol consumed in sufficient amounts lead to erectile dysfunction, hardly a manly thing, It says that at the levels of 1-2 drinks a day it can be a carcinogen. If you want longevity drink grape juice. But the alcohol industry isn't going to push that message. Will I tolerate it? So long as it doesn't impose on my rights. People are just now waking up to the lies behind smoking and I think it wont be long before they wake up to the evils of alcohol. I don't see Baha'is as oppressing the drinkers out there, but I do see them using the same tactics that were used with smoking. Here's something to chew on. "Extent of the Alcohol-Violence Association Based on published studies, Roizen (3) summarized the percentages of violent offenders who were drinking at the time of the offense as follows: up to 86 percent of homicide offenders, 37 percent of assault offenders, 60 percent of sexual offenders, up to 57 percent of men and 27 percent of women involved in marital violence, and 13 percent of child abusers. These figures are the upper limits of a wide range of estimates. In a community-based study, Pernanen (4) found that 42 percent of violent crimes reported to the police involved alcohol, although 51 percent of the victims interviewed believed that their assailants had been drinking." http://www.athealth.com/consumer/disorders/angeralcohol.html Those are some pretty damning stats. One or two drinks may not make you homicidal. But you have to wonder, does it make you an aggressive driver? Does it make you prone towards violence? From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Oct 7 14:21:36 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0A3B4B0BAA for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 14:21:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VDC2QEOIyvZT for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 14:21:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 031A24B0BB9; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 14:21:35 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 13:21:58 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 12:28:28 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=2RwTWBCy/ADFTSmum6mo+NHK4d0xxFeAwBb9aQw35kqlwlo+0FM8Cng7Ohg42VQcIpec/kRXEsZZwa9J2isvERemXTkutAsKbK0Dzex6ngfwjU6cEA/GdSqwVyr3KK3BIKcLQY/yc+9VRN/g3/TCaQvbgIirhcGbj+nBCwFnF1U= ; X-YMail-OSG: 1EkJ8J4VM1k53W.glBSohh7KeEevm.SxvyjzkSEPp6Dpb.jcZrZfA9rHN0Khel2lnxLS7nuFjcld72KoK8Y3E1BkHqGVvBbc.XniA.evJOSUuv4ZMKCQ_JzLqu7hhfudX6kSvriJ.CatbZBzrmjDxten X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 12:27:54 -0400 References: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KnFQ7-0002r6-NP X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-bxh/Jkg++Itp+3gCBwkNpDmMg+Nq6CES7SCZZtWKuV1ZpbrhscWGjPJf3zGUOyla2x26Bjr3sZv6TvL!uSPSyWU3nGM2qbgcWxgpH/tAaEMJ0pTAebBJPC6GMm7YBIUq6YiYpqD2ISzo67Hf+Hig3wz72w== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25407 On Oct 6, 2008, at 9:06 PM, compx2 wrote: > Hi Doug. > > The reason I referred to God as "She" was to accomodate someone else. > If you look at the message to which I was responding when I wrote it > you will see that. This is the second time I have told you this. And Kent, this is the second or maybe third time I have said that if the Manifestation uses the term "He" then shouldn't we also? Why reinforce someones' use of a term that is not being used by the Manifestation? > > >> My understanding from the Writings and from what I have read from >> those scholars who have fluency in the original source languages ... > > The understanding I have is from my own independent investigation of > truth. Whose truth do you think I will accept, my own investigation, > or the truth you report from others that you respect? And my understanding is from my own independent investigation which includes science and what scholar fluent in the original languages say. I think you should accept what is derived from the harmony of reason and faith or science and religion. > > > I would not respect myself, Doug, if I accepted your reported experts > without investigating. So, for me, I would like to see what issues > and points they make, not their conclusions. I can make my own > conclusions if you can give me the verifiable facts. Who is asking you to accept what experts say Kent? Not me, for sure. In the matter of use of the term "She" I gave you the facts. The Manifestation did not use the term "She" in reference to God and so I go by Him and not by experts. > > > So I find your reasoning that, since Baha'u'llah was infallible anyone > He says is infallible is therefore infallible, less than convincing. > I would go into again, but I don't think you read what I write. If > you are interested, I recently wrote something to Tim that he found > "beautiful" that explained a little of my view of infallibility. If > you would like to discuss it with me further, please let's start > there. I know your view, you do not know mine. Are you saying the Beloved Master, Guardian and House of Justice are not infallible? I do not understand why you are even disputing this. doug > > > --Kent > > On Oct 6, 12:13 pm, Douglas McAdam > wrote: >> Hi Tim and Kent- >> I am wondering about something. >> My understanding from the Writings and from what I have read from >> those scholars who have fluency in the original source languages say >> that the Manifestation has essential infallibility and He has >> conferred infallibility upon the Master who in turn conferred >> infallibility upon the Guardian and House of Justice. The Beloved >> Master gave us some knowledge about all this in several places. He >> explained essential infallibility and how certain holy souls are >> capable of acquiring this condition of conferred infallibility and >> are > >> not subject to error. The argument you mention that has happened on > >> discussions appeared to be about how the Master, Guardian and House >> of > >> Justice are not inerrant but that the original word for infallibility >> actually meant "protection" or "sinlessness" I think. >> >> What I would like to know is what is the original word for >> "essential" > >> and what is the original word for "infallibility". >> I'm somewhat confused by all this and also wondered about how English >> is translated back into the original sources languages. For example > >> how is the word infallible in relation to the Master, Guardian and >> House of Justice translated back into Arabic or Persian? >> >> It strikes me strange that we can attribute total essential >> infallibility to the Manifestation who is without error and then when >> He appoints the Master and confers infallibility upon him that some >> will attribute an error to the Master or the Guardian. To me that >> would mean the Manifestation (God speaking to us) made an error in >> conferring infallibility upon the Master,etc. >> >> We are fallible and we then judge the Central Figures and that does >> not seem to me to be reasonable nor spiritual. >> >> Also Kent, where in the Writings, either in the source language or in >> any other language is the Manifestation referred to as "She"? I >> know > >> that God is genderless but yet if the Manifestation said "He" then >> who > >> are we to change it? >> >> regards, >> doug >> >> On Oct 5, 2008, at 9:18 PM, Number Eleven - GPEMC! wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>> "compx2" wrote in message >>> news:LZOdnf3eiuGJ8EDVnZ2dnUVZ_oPinZ2d@giganews.com... >>>> Hi again, Tim. >> >>>> I am having great difficulty posting here, having tried to post >>>> this >>>> one several times as well as others. >> >>>> The issue of infallibility has been discussed around here several >>>> times in my years reading this forum. I suggest that if you want >>>> to >>>> seriously discuss the issue further we should start a new thread. >> >>>> But as a Baha'i I have an obligation to understand the usage of the >>>> word in relation to the institutions of the Faith and the Central >>>> Figures. I have reconciled it myself with an understanding of the >>>> purpose of God's revelation, that God works in broad strokes. In >>>> He > r >>>> revelation She has provided a matrix of understanding, the >>>> elimination >>>> of prejudice, spiritual solution to economic problems, progressive >>>> revelation from God, independent investigation... All of Her >>>> revelation cannot be empirically verified, but the promise that >>>> should >>>> we adopt these principles and follow Her proscriptions we will >>>> become >>>> better people and attract Her confirmations. >>>> I believe this is a major covenant between God and humanity, a >>>> major >>>> connection that can only benefit humanity, and each of us >>>> personally. >> >>>> That is infallible. >> >>>>> --Kent >>> [SNIP] >> >>> I think that's beautiful Kent. Although my experience leads me to >>> somewhat >>> different beliefs, I have always agreed with the major principles of > >>> the >>> Baha'i Faith - such as those you have mentioned. >> >>> However, I am particularly cautious of arbitrary proscription >>> because every >>> human being already knows how to correctly derive a just >>> proscription. We >>> can all put ourselves in the shoes of others an empathise with them, > >>> and we >>> all know how to find out which expectations are universal and which >>> are the >>> product of culture or temperament. I think that the key here is good > >>> will, >>> consultation, and due diligence. Very simple compared to a code of >>> laws - >>> even if it is intended only for consumption as "a choice wine". >> >>> We also have a rich enough culture to know how to prevent schism - >>> As far as >>> I can tell, the Royal Society was the first to achieve this by >>> abolishing >>> the role of doctrinal authority and rejecting concepts such as >>> infallibility. >> >>> ____________________________________________________________ >>> Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the num...@timothycasey.info to >>> email. >>> Philosophical Essays:http://timothycasey.info >>> Speed Reading:http://speed-reading-comprehension.com >>> Software:http://fieldcraft.biz;Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, >>> Security. >>> Science & Geology:http://geologist-1011.com;http:// >>> geologist-1011.net >>> Technical & Web Design:http://web-design-1011.com >>> -- >>> GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. Seewww.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC >>> The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. >>> If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end >>> SPAM >>> Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer >>> today!- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Oct 7 14:21:50 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65E9F4B0BB9 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 14:21:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1BVCGDjKFVnL for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 14:21:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 6FBD94B0BDA; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 14:21:49 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 13:22:20 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 12:34:18 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=MrrAx0niifLHnVvqVhRuuWIwJZudN1ujwpmIxiFc5m+4xF3IoEP+MG7O18ZgsHXFiJavm04ddnT47iYunABEG+4csC/4z3ivniBkQ8qiknA+skBvq59ZPFFTCCyd1bwd+TfAic8SPvfBDouHlUtySnn7TKSe0bTqGVvYEL4vqnw= ; X-YMail-OSG: BRpiDXkVM1moMHccT1mMRNattAjrHTHnRDVaI6eTlPoNCBM58URA8qyQsy5LdUSgc79vXpsV9Ou2q6wSmZKwVss66BTOITQXKdXg1u9eiLrY8NuSFVyTuvErt.9KrV5MVsc- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 12:34:06 -0400 References: <5e6 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KnFVn-0003Vb-GP X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-me6GrtI5eCAP93cO7UdybMTitnsx4DBG22ojeq2H5XQ7bADFRuTZ8hM+pi7U54kB5PjOGEtm/18L3mF!ByMw2fTyfaGsp1kzLufaIOeI78fjgIovVn4+WiG7P4lrAA5DzY+G0dnDIkpb7rJzK/eEFHd0SA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25408 On Oct 6, 2008, at 9:39 PM, compx2 wrote: > The issue I have is that it should not be illegal or prohibited on the > basis of the fact that those who voluntarily join the Baha'i Faith > have vowed not to drink alcohol. > > If you want to urge Prohibition in the 21st century that is a > political, not a religious, issue. I cannot understand why you think that Baha'is are wanting to ban alcohol on this basis. I have not read any Baha'i post here saying this. The bottom line is Baha'u'llah has prohibited alcohol period. He said nothing about having a drink once in a while, or having social and recreational drinks, He prohibited all uses except if a doctor prescribed it. It is a law of God and freedom is gained by obedience to His Laws not in disobedience. regards, doug From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Oct 7 18:08:02 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C15D4B0B57 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 18:08:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RmMbGI0I4tr5 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 18:08:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id CB2244B0B95; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 18:08:01 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 17:07:57 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 14:34:16 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: "celestial.tree.of.love@gmail.com" Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: thousand years as one day, but why Christianity and Islam are only 621 yeas apart? Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 11:34:02 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: c22g2000prc.googlegroups.com; posting-host=70.6.82.161; posting-account=h0z4eQoAAAAcvd6lLKDp8HRTVlQEzWYk User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.0.3) Gecko/2008092417 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KnHNq-0006xP-TF X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-F1yBafbztsCDOwv2jJY3mq43KZdskQU38yp9Ij/Ol1/8+bv1rKVmuut3enyG0L+mPZsUCtrfC4/LPGv!emVGsIA46i81UtE/CuRzFg04547ScjyN4RgJh+hY8hjLQfQ/l3N/toHnq7fAaeKVl2GC0ivgFw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25409 Recently a question was brought up and I don't know the answer for it: it has been revealed in Quran : 32:5: that the cause of god is returned in a day. a day that is thousand years. But the duration of Christianity is only 621 years? Thanks in advance for your time. Omid From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Oct 7 18:08:33 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B40474B0B95 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 18:08:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sN4oMcs8c2xQ for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 18:08:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 0B2C04B0BC2; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 18:08:33 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 17:08:28 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 17:45:51 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=hT7BZLyA91gMVdIPL5aAtzMtOsl4HNVGDnV5V9NU0jIoGYTtevKvC4hjQ3eWl9xCn1LrMogN8wPc3y9imCa4uGkbwLQOz0V+I7Ww7cDvl5thejM6r/1X4Y9WN5lO/ZIhLhCJ9net5u3X6LydzpK5IEfqRAdAj+GAa9GsPqiPPxQ= ; X-YMail-OSG: B9BcVN8VM1n5EC8XeM6FrcnU0BQ3DHGTG1L6jOXNhk6YyZVgUZRQHFaAmUAoMYMrVqutuBclans3Vh2JCMYk9DxfPx2uxKze8fFjUy5.CZSOqPAOjHT1iisk1fTUcq_VCR91DWhQvsyZgBFZBhlDQPZGjJ3pq575KXRh8BeNXDc8i9mkkQ-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 17:45:39 -0400 References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KnKNJ-0005nI-H3 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-0.713, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, IMPOTENCE 1.89) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-S66efhHaeBzqevDrHSng9/C7Lt63dY521B4lVSgx2uv+c7KVZtL1QZ7ZPRD2o9WmT6tq1OcPUdKRBRZ!xQMxJJeV34RCfqZPtTiHqw39AWpfnIY3mC9T6O3lll5JipHoW8N7wLe/Vk8+LM4s4+9RR/h6IA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25410 Good post my friend. Thanks so much for the quote of the studies. I find in my classes at the Jail that 70% of all crime is related to alcohol and drugs. And I would say that probably the same percentage or maybe more are addicts. I now have third and fourth generation addicts in my class. Regarding this statement of yours - > Before we go too far with this, let me be clear about my position. I > have no intention of arguing that alcohol should be illegal. I'm wondering about something. Many of our laws today are based on the Ten Commandments yet no all mankind are Jewish or Christian. Wouldn't it be realistic to predict that in the future our civil laws will be based on the Baha'i Revelation ? regards, doug On Oct 7, 2008, at 10:03 AM, mikeran37@yahoo.com wrote: > On Oct 6, 8:15 pm, compx2 wrote: >> Hi Mike, >> >>> I'll refer you to my post in 'God's side.' But alcohol is officially >>> classed as a carcinogen. >> >> Would I be marginalizing your position if I asked if you intend to >> outlaw every carcinogen? >> > > Before we go too far with this, let me be clear about my position. I > have no intention of arguing that alcohol should be illegal. I do > argue in favor of programs to discredit alcohol and regulations to > limit where alcohol can be consumed. Like with smoking, I don't like > the idea of sharing a resturant with people who are drinking, not > because I think they're going to hell or anything else like that. But > because I have all too often witnessed people becomming belligerant, > loud and obnoxious. I don't want it around me, and as a family man, I > don't want it around my children. What comes across as casually > acceptable to you, is offensive and ruinous of the atmosphere to me. I > don't want to deal with it on the roads should I have the misfortune > of being out late on a friday. > > Why should I tolerate it in my life? I don't and beyond the near > misses on the road and bad resturaunts it has little bearing on me. > What I don't want is my child being indoctrinated by a culture and > television ads that paint alcohol as the manly thing or presented as > the drug of longevity. These are patent lies. Our science says > otherwise, it says that alcohol consumed in sufficient amounts lead to > erectile dysfunction, hardly a manly thing, It says that at the levels > of 1-2 drinks a day it can be a carcinogen. If you want longevity > drink grape juice. But the alcohol industry isn't going to push that > message. > > Will I tolerate it? So long as it doesn't impose on my rights. People > are just now waking up to the lies behind smoking and I think it wont > be long before they wake up to the evils of alcohol. I don't see > Baha'is as oppressing the drinkers out there, but I do see them using > the same tactics that were used with smoking. > > Here's something to chew on. > > "Extent of the Alcohol-Violence Association > > Based on published studies, Roizen (3) summarized the percentages of > violent offenders who were drinking at the time of the offense as > follows: up to 86 percent of homicide offenders, 37 percent of assault > offenders, 60 percent of sexual offenders, up to 57 percent of men and > 27 percent of women involved in marital violence, and 13 percent of > child abusers. These figures are the upper limits of a wide range of > estimates. In a community-based study, Pernanen (4) found that 42 > percent of violent crimes reported to the police involved alcohol, > although 51 percent of the victims interviewed believed that their > assailants had been drinking." > http://www.athealth.com/consumer/disorders/angeralcohol.html > > Those are some pretty damning stats. One or two drinks may not make > you homicidal. But you have to wonder, does it make you an aggressive > driver? Does it make you prone towards violence? > > > > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Oct 7 18:08:42 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 150734B07F0 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 18:08:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zo2YKIQ5vzXh for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 18:08:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 192274B0A2F; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 18:08:41 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 17:08:42 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 17:52:19 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 14:48:46 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <5e6 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: g25g2000prf.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.2.209; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KnKTZ-0006Gl-GD X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-Xl3ysPvIkvcoVn0qUkPiDDpy/SgOz8pc6DLFlW+ksQgwVbSFqdgSkpyZ/TbK6QrcXzySkyxk0J+7p07!TSVOX5JnHZUdqXmqcArb2YK7UL2KErAsWOPDIoKYQIr+1IJxP+fztRSixY0CMXladpZC9af9EA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25411 Hi Doug, You: "> I cannot understand why you think that Baha'is are wanting to ban > alcohol You talk about God's Laws, God's punishment, that all your friends say alcohol is bad. You said that you are" "speaking of addictions. Paul said he likes to drink once in a while and is putting up a sort of rationalization for this habit, a rationalization I used myself when drinking and using drugs 40 yrs ago and what I constantly here from many, many people and in my view they are casting votes, dollar votes too for the entire alcohol industry and the consequences of addiction and the cost to society which in turn come back to hurt them in many ways. God did not say it was OK to drink or use drugs once in a while or socially, He forbid it except under a doctor's prescription. We can readily see the punishment inflicted on society, on all of us for disobedience. We are one family and so I will do what I can to help family members." Now you say that I am misinterpreting you. You do not want to forbid the secular use of alcohol. Am I correct? Obviously you are condeming Paul when you say he is employing "a rationalization" you used yourself. It appears to me that you believe Paul is rationalizing when he said he enjoys drinking. I don't think he is. I think he enjoys drinking. I see no reason he should not enjoy drinking, just as I see no reason for him to stop smoking or stop hitting himself in the head, if he were to enjoy doing those things. I see no reason not to brainwash and employ counter educational methods like the ones used against smoking and for environmental control. I am in favor of error on the side of caution. But those who independently investigate and wish to drink alcohol or bury a lead battery in a dry spot on their property, or smoke cigars, well, they are entitled so far as I am concerned. I call it tolerance, and I believe in it as a part of my religion. > He prohibited all uses except if a doctor > prescribed it. It is a law of God and freedom is gained by obedience > to His Laws not in disobedience. He prohibited drinking alcohol for Baha'is, not for humanity. -- Kent On Oct 7, 12:34=A0pm, Douglas McAdam wrote: > On Oct 6, 2008, at 9:39 PM, compx2 wrote: > > > The issue I have is that it should not be illegal or prohibited on the > > basis of the fact that those who voluntarily join the Baha'i Faith > > have vowed not to drink alcohol. > > > If you want to urge Prohibition in the 21st century that is a > > political, not a religious, issue. > > I cannot understand why you think that Baha'is are wanting to ban =A0 > alcohol on this basis. =A0I have not read any Baha'i post here saying =A0 > this. =A0The bottom line is Baha'u'llah has prohibited alcohol period. =A0 > He said nothing about having a drink once in a while, or having social =A0 > and recreational drinks, He prohibited all uses except if a doctor =A0 > prescribed it. =A0It is a law of God and freedom is gained by obedience =A0 > to His Laws not in disobedience. > > regards, > doug From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Oct 7 20:45:47 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C62E84B0BE7 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 20:45:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M3KRTy85-1BX for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 20:45:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id BFE054B0BF7; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 20:45:45 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 19:45:42 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 19:40:06 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=RPCvwWuVR95neX44D8WZSE/YQkaJrg+ke+iE5sN0zw79ob++3YdEA29n7QsqNdkYWPp09/sVGnCeI9plEp4ipoKuz2Qq5HP/NP0hKGPRm7aIm5YGeVqtzZaSdeQwdaedclvC2eoUM9oiR2hEfTzl6ljOVyN/k4QHO9XDaVAtA8o= ; X-YMail-OSG: KShLfsYVM1n5Bcjy.L1b4rg.lPy3.8t5.SRk7uk7Qe2un1bCeV784yT_9kovbt3bBpZs3FwTXaUXK_sEPUBm7PMUJnZYurUOw_hmbkwDi7SDjpOXKmWc5ctVAXpXQQYcm2g93K1ghzdkZdQB2kIhpDlhMQOrC4qpCUy_OUY1_TsN9Df7_A-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 19:39:50 -0400 References: <5e6 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KnM9o-0006KX-2T X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-hjA/aHNlfXYUkfLUdDUEtX1XpWZzqvp1synsaVsOAD4UaB8iCb4tTote9g2nesVmxq08nf/5FMPFs3f!AZ8aohruKWQ3BIq6CDu9P2+vVIMSmmaVLznOtkOFigYIElTF40DFzGAGPkqJHPqxSnBi+OOssg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25412 On Oct 7, 2008, at 5:48 PM, compx2 wrote: > Hi Doug, > > You: "> I cannot understand why you think that Baha'is are wanting to > ban >> alcohol > > You talk about God's Laws, God's punishment, that all your friends say > alcohol is bad. You said that you are" > > "speaking of addictions. Paul said he likes to drink once in a > while and is putting up a sort of rationalization for this habit, a > rationalization I used myself when drinking and using drugs 40 yrs > ago and what I constantly here from many, many people and in my view > they are casting votes, dollar votes too for the entire alcohol > industry and the consequences of addiction and the cost to society > which in turn come back to hurt them in many ways. God did not say > it was OK to drink or use drugs once in a while or socially, He > forbid it except under a doctor's prescription. We can readily see > the punishment inflicted on society, on all of us for disobedience. > We are one family and so I will do what I can to help family > members." > > Now you say that I am misinterpreting you. You do not want to forbid > the secular use of alcohol. Am I correct? > > Obviously you are condeming Paul when you say he is employing "a > rationalization" you used yourself. It appears to me that you believe > Paul is rationalizing when he said he enjoys drinking. I don't think > he is. I think he enjoys drinking. I see no reason he should not > enjoy drinking, just as I see no reason for him to stop smoking or > stop hitting himself in the head, if he were to enjoy doing those > things. Hi Kent- I am not condemning Paul, I am simply saying that if God has banned alcohol and he or anyone knows it and still tries to justify their drinking then it is a rationalization. I separate behavior from the individual and so I can say the behavior is wrong but that does not condemn the person for I also know we are living souls in seed form. > > > I see no reason not to brainwash and employ counter educational > methods like the ones used against smoking and for environmental > control. I am in favor of error on the side of caution. But those > who independently investigate and wish to drink alcohol or bury a lead > battery in a dry spot on their property, or smoke cigars, well, they > are entitled so far as I am concerned. I call it tolerance, and I > believe in it as a part of my religion. I do not know what you mean by tolerance. How can we tolerate a behavior that is harmful to all mankind? Have you not read all the stats, the scientific information, the Baha'i Law and the many references in the Writings about the harm of alcohol. How can anyone know all this and tolerate its use is beyond me but that does not mean I do not love and respect those who rationalize their habits. > > >> He prohibited all uses except if a doctor >> prescribed it. It is a law of God and freedom is gained by obedience >> to His Laws not in disobedience. > > He prohibited drinking alcohol for Baha'is, not for humanity. Not in my view Kent. Baha'u'llah came to cure the ills of all mankind, not just those who accept Him. Are the Ten Commandments only for Christian's? The Manifestations Revelation recreates and endows Creation with a new potential. To remain back in the previous Revelation or society would be like going back to the early grades of education in my thinking. regards, doug > > > -- Kent > > > > > > On Oct 7, 12:34 pm, Douglas McAdam > wrote: >> On Oct 6, 2008, at 9:39 PM, compx2 wrote: >> >>> The issue I have is that it should not be illegal or prohibited on >>> the >>> basis of the fact that those who voluntarily join the Baha'i Faith >>> have vowed not to drink alcohol. >> >>> If you want to urge Prohibition in the 21st century that is a >>> political, not a religious, issue. >> >> I cannot understand why you think that Baha'is are wanting to ban >> alcohol on this basis. I have not read any Baha'i post here saying >> this. The bottom line is Baha'u'llah has prohibited alcohol period. > >> He said nothing about having a drink once in a while, or having >> social > >> and recreational drinks, He prohibited all uses except if a doctor >> prescribed it. It is a law of God and freedom is gained by obedience > >> to His Laws not in disobedience. >> >> regards, >> doug > > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Oct 7 20:46:25 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FCAE4B0BC8 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 20:46:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id khoUyqOxceHD for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 20:46:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id EAFAB4B0757; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 20:46:23 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 19:46:21 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 19:59:25 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 16:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: p59g2000hsd.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KnMSZ-00083Y-Mh X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-0.713, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, IMPOTENCE 1.89) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-85fWVZzlhKUKTo8Vk8bhdc8Z2+Tz6G1F6MPwlLTvRbFd2T8URd57cO+JW81dpljVT0sgTrLxUlfZ+/+!EYO/y4ujU5acSXHvs+0EUQikNHHzU9Dq2Tk31f9LkktJXsskYMLkNL0s2JCijQ9N1bi+v9sUOQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25413 Hi Mark, > I > have no intention of arguing that alcohol should be illegal. I do > argue in favor of programs to discredit alcohol and regulations to > limit where alcohol can be consumed. I don't get it. You say you agree with Doug, who says " Many of our laws today are based on the Ten Commandments yet no all mankind are Jewish or Christian. Wouldn't it be realistic to predict that in the future our civil laws will be based on the Baha'i Revelation ?" You both deny you think alcohol should be illegal while arguing that alcohol should be illegal. I don't understand the point of your intolerance to people who drink alcohol if you think they have a right to drink alcohol. If this intolerance were racism it would be like saying blacks are equal with us whites, it is just that they are dirty and stupid and you don't want them in your neighborhood. If you tolerated alcohol you would say that you choose not to drink, but anyone else should enjoy it if they wish. You might as well tell me some of your best friends drink alcohol. Maybe I am about to discover some deep, hidden truth about Baha'is. It seems Baha'is think God is going to enforce His law and perform all the deeds that Baha'is don't want to perform. Maybe Baha'is think they don't have to act, that God will make alcohol illegal and bring peace and take rich people's money and give it to the poor. Maybe Baha'is generally don't realize that their views are Baha'i views, that they represent Baha'u'llah, that when Baha'is side with Palestine or Prohibition 2k+ or socialism or Arctic drilling they are putting those partisan topics on my religion. > What comes across as casually > acceptable to you, is offensive and ruinous of the atmosphere to me. And that comes across as intolerant to me. I have seen obnoxious people who have not been drinking, and if someone who is obnoxious has been drinking I am not likely to blame the alcohol. And if they themselves say that their words were from the drink, well that is to acknowledge a problem with alcohol. So alcohol is a problem for them, but that does not mean it is a problem for me or Paul or anyone else. I spend time with drinkers at an open bar twice a month. I usually just leave early. I don't think less of them and they don't think less of me, to my knowledge. > But you have to wonder, does it make you an aggressive > driver? Does it make you prone towards violence? Agressive driving and violence are bad. Alcohol in and of itself is not. --Kent On Oct 7, 10:03=A0am, mikera...@yahoo.com wrote: > On Oct 6, 8:15=A0pm, compx2 wrote: > > > Hi Mike, > > > > I'll refer you to my post in 'God's side.' But alcohol is officially > > > classed as a carcinogen. > > > Would I be marginalizing your position if I asked if you intend to > > outlaw every carcinogen? > > =A0Before we go too far with this, let me be clear about my position. I > have no intention of arguing that =A0alcohol should be illegal. I do > argue in favor of programs to discredit alcohol and regulations to > limit where alcohol can be consumed. Like with smoking, I don't like > the idea of sharing a resturant with people who are drinking, not > because I think they're going to hell or anything else like that. But > because I have all too often witnessed people becomming belligerant, > loud and obnoxious. I don't want it around me, and as a family man, I > don't want it around my children. What comes across as casually > acceptable to you, is offensive and ruinous of the atmosphere to me. I > don't want to deal with it on the roads should I have the misfortune > of being out late on a friday. > > =A0Why should I tolerate it in my life? I don't and beyond the near > misses on the road and bad resturaunts it has little bearing on me. > What I don't want is my child being indoctrinated by a culture and > television ads that paint alcohol as the manly thing or presented as > the drug of longevity. These are patent lies. Our science says > otherwise, it says that alcohol consumed in sufficient amounts lead to > erectile dysfunction, hardly a manly thing, It says that at the levels > of 1-2 drinks a day it can be a carcinogen. If you want longevity > drink grape juice. But the alcohol industry isn't going to push that > message. > > =A0Will I tolerate it? So long as it doesn't impose on my rights. People > are just now waking up to the lies behind smoking and I think it wont > be long before they wake up to the evils of alcohol. I don't see > Baha'is as oppressing the drinkers out there, but I do see them using > the same tactics that were used with smoking. > > =A0Here's something to chew on. > > "Extent of the Alcohol-Violence Association > > Based on published studies, Roizen (3) summarized the percentages of > violent offenders who were drinking at the time of the offense as > follows: up to 86 percent of homicide offenders, 37 percent of assault > offenders, 60 percent of sexual offenders, up to 57 percent of men and > 27 percent of women involved in marital violence, and 13 percent of > child abusers. These figures are the upper limits of a wide range of > estimates. In a community-based study, Pernanen (4) found that 42 > percent of violent crimes reported to the police involved alcohol, > although 51 percent of the victims interviewed believed that their > assailants had been drinking."http://www.athealth.com/consumer/disorders/ angeralcohol.html > > =A0Those are some pretty damning stats. One or two drinks may not make > you homicidal. But you have to wonder, does it make you an aggressive > driver? Does it make you prone towards violence? From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Oct 7 20:46:32 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D2C34B0BA8 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 20:46:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1yDIFmZ3-GVY for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 20:46:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 451454B0BC8; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 20:46:32 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 19:46:29 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 19:59:27 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 16:59:10 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: b2g2000prf.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KnMSa-00083f-RJ X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-TrAtKOFKxSJ5TCzmobdGymlj6Q6ojcMKCa5J0H2R/uuTRPl/wt4Ork15nK5RooGwNZf8GnjOWSKMk/i!/ZVS2zq2Hw6RnCMtVT1/WzXK3y6CW2P2D/tiQa9jgGq2OwOU8cNPmidiQk6mWWe9T+HFb1bPuA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25414 Hi Doug, > I find in my classes at > the Jail that 70% of all crime is related to alcohol and drugs. It seems to me that 100% of all relation with illegal drugs is a crime. I don't think you are talking about legal drugs, so the statistic of 70% seems quite low. If a drug is involved it is a crime. --Kent On Oct 7, 5:45=A0pm, Douglas McAdam wrote: > Good post my friend. > Thanks so much for the quote of the studies. =A0I find in my classes at =A0 > the Jail that 7021777521f all crime is related to alcohol and drugs. =A0And I =A0 > would say that probably the same percentage or maybe more are =A0 > addicts. =A0I now have third and fourth generation addicts in my class. > > Regarding this statement of yours -> Before we go too far with this, let me be clear about my position. I > > have no intention of arguing that =A0alcohol should be illegal. > > I'm wondering about something. =A0Many of our laws today are based on =A0 > the Ten Commandments yet no all mankind are Jewish or Christian. =A0 > Wouldn't it be realistic to predict that in the future our civil laws =A0 > will be based on the Baha'i Revelation ? > > regards, > doug From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Oct 7 20:46:51 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89A344B0BC8 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 20:46:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SgK4dLt05xFs for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 20:46:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 740964B0BCB; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 20:46:49 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 19:46:46 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 20:30:40 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 17:30:25 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: w39g2000prb.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KnMwn-0002nC-Nl X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-XPSVvjVQgWonL0uIw+BHnl6WKGstqdkOE1oRM5tIJpajdgYPmLGvj0BwUE9l7+7EzBZ6UoyoY8pwBgs!XeDQadt27z/P34p3HvJ3aULuZyVx2hqPmCbyI9Xtd/sWrPG9nmj4qcy1GyoG5RvvQ7/R/rNs9A== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25415 Hi Doug, I am reminded of the Taliban and Wahhabi style Islam. You say "if the Manifestation uses the term "He" then shouldn't we also?" Should we call women "handmaiden"? Is the sun really better called the "dayspring"? Should we all live as Baha'u'llah lived and eschew all modern conveniences? > I think you should accept what is derived from the harmony of > reason and faith or science and religion. I think you should accept that I will accept what I accept, just as I accept that you accept what you accept. I don't see your points as reasonable, but I understand what you are saying. On the other hand you do not understand what I am saying. > Are you saying the Beloved Master, Guardian and House of Justice are > not infallible? I do not understand why you are even disputing this. I think disputing is the wrong word. But it is clear that you have not read the message, perhaps distracted by the female pronouns. Since you keep bringing it up, I will give you another opportunity to read it. After you have read it, then please ask me about it if you want. I have removed the female references so as to distract you less from the point. > But as a Baha'i I have an obligation to understand the usage of the word (infallible) in relation to the institutions of the Faith and the Central F igures. I have reconciled it myself with an understanding of the purpose of God's revelation, that God works in broad strokes. In His revelation He has provided a matrix of understanding, the elimination of prejudice, spir itual solution to economic problems, progressive revelation from God, indep endent investigation... All of His revelation cannot be empirically verifi ed, but the promise that should we adopt these principles and follow His pr oscriptions we will become better people and attract His confirmations. I believe this is a major covenant between God and humanity, a major connecti on that can only benefit humanity, and each of us personally. >That is infallible. On Oct 7, 12:27=A0pm, Douglas McAdam wrote: > On Oct 6, 2008, at 9:06 PM, compx2 wrote: > > > Hi Doug. > > > The reason I referred to God as "She" was to accomodate someone else. > > If you look at the message to which I was responding when I wrote it > > you will see that. =A0This is the second time I have told you this. > > And Kent, this is the second or maybe third time I have said that if =A0 > the Manifestation uses the term "He" then shouldn't we also? =A0Why =A0 > reinforce someones' use of a term that is not being used by the =A0 > Manifestation? > > > > >> My understanding from the Writings and from what I have read from > >> those scholars who have fluency in the original source languages ... > > > The understanding I have is from my own independent investigation of > > truth. =A0Whose truth do you think I will accept, my own investigation, > > or the truth you report from others that you respect? > > And my understanding is from my own independent investigation which =A0 > includes science and what scholar fluent in the original languages =A0 > say. =A0I think you should accept what is derived from the harmony of =A0 > reason and faith or science and religion. > > > > > I would not respect myself, Doug, if I accepted your reported experts > > without investigating. =A0So, for me, I would like to see what issues > > and points they make, not their conclusions. =A0I can make my own > > conclusions if you can give me the verifiable facts. > > Who is asking you to accept what experts say Kent? =A0Not me, for sure. > In the matter of use of the term "She" I gave you the facts. =A0The =A0 > Manifestation did not use the term "She" in reference to God and so I =A0 > go by Him and not by experts. > > > > > So I find your reasoning that, since Baha'u'llah was infallible anyone > > He says is infallible is therefore infallible, less than convincing. > > I would go into again, but I don't think you read what I write. =A0If > > you are interested, I recently wrote something to Tim that he found > > "beautiful" that explained a little of my view of infallibility. =A0If > > you would like to discuss it with me further, please let's start > > there. =A0I know your view, you do not know mine. > > Are you saying the Beloved Master, Guardian and House of Justice are =A0 > not infallible? =A0I do not understand why you are even disputing this. > > doug > > > > > > > --Kent > > > On Oct 6, 12:13 pm, Douglas McAdam > > wrote: > >> Hi Tim and Kent- > >> I am wondering about something. > >> My understanding from the Writings and from what I have read from > >> those scholars who have fluency in the original source languages say > >> that the Manifestation has essential infallibility and He has > >> conferred infallibility upon the Master who in turn conferred > >> infallibility upon the Guardian and House of Justice. =A0 The Beloved > >> Master gave us some knowledge about all this in several places. =A0He > >> explained essential infallibility and how certain holy souls are > >> capable of acquiring this condition of conferred infallibility and =A0 > >> are > > >> not subject to error. =A0The argument you mention that has happened on > > >> discussions appeared to be about how the Master, Guardian and House =A0 > >> of > > >> Justice are not inerrant but that the original word for infallibility > >> actually meant "protection" or "sinlessness" I think. > > >> What I would like to know is what is the original word for =A0 > >> "essential" > > >> and what is the original word for "infallibility". > >> I'm somewhat confused by all this and also wondered about how English > >> is translated back into the original sources languages. =A0For example > > >> how is the word infallible in relation to the Master, Guardian and > >> House of Justice translated back into Arabic or Persian? > > >> It strikes me strange that we can attribute total essential > >> infallibility to the Manifestation who is without error and then when > >> He appoints the Master and confers infallibility upon him that some > >> will attribute an error to the Master or the Guardian. =A0To me that > >> would mean the Manifestation (God speaking to us) made an error in > >> conferring infallibility upon the Master,etc. > > >> We are fallible and we then judge the Central Figures and that does > >> not seem to me to be reasonable nor spiritual. > > >> Also Kent, where in the Writings, either in the source language or in > >> any other language is the Manifestation referred to as "She"? =A0 I =A0 > >> know > > >> that God is genderless but yet if the Manifestation said "He" then =A0 > >> who > > >> are we to change it? > > >> regards, > >> doug > > >> On Oct 5, 2008, at 9:18 PM, Number Eleven - GPEMC! wrote: > > >>> "compx2" wrote in message > >>>news:LZOdnf3eiuGJ8EDVnZ2dnUVZ_oPinZ2d@giganews.com... > >>>> Hi again, Tim. > > >>>> I am having great difficulty posting here, having tried to post =A0 > >>>> this > >>>> one several times as well as others. > > >>>> The issue of infallibility has been discussed around here several > >>>> times in my years reading this forum. =A0I suggest that if you want =A0 > >>>> to > >>>> seriously discuss the issue further we should start a new thread. > > >>>> But as a Baha'i I have an obligation to understand the usage of the > >>>> word in relation to the institutions of the Faith and the Central > >>>> Figures. =A0I have reconciled it myself with an understanding of the > >>>> purpose of God's revelation, that God works in broad strokes. =A0In =A0 > >>>> He > > r > >>>> revelation She has provided a matrix of understanding, the > >>>> elimination > >>>> of prejudice, spiritual solution to economic problems, progressive > >>>> revelation from God, independent investigation... =A0All of Her > >>>> revelation cannot be empirically verified, but the promise that > >>>> should > >>>> we adopt these principles and follow Her proscriptions we will =A0 > >>>> become > >>>> better people and attract Her confirmations. > >>>> I believe this is a major covenant between God and humanity, a =A0 > >>>> major > >>>> connection that can only benefit humanity, and each of us =A0 > >>>> personally. > > >>>> That is infallible. > > >>>>> --Kent > >>> [SNIP] > > >>> I think that's beautiful Kent. Although my experience leads me to > >>> somewhat > >>> different beliefs, I have always agreed with the major principles of > > >>> the > >>> Baha'i Faith - such as those you have mentioned. > > >>> However, I am particularly cautious of arbitrary proscription > >>> because every > >>> human being already knows how to correctly derive a just > >>> proscription. We > >>> can all put ourselves in the shoes of others an empathise with them, > > >>> and we > >>> all know how to find out which expectations are universal and which > >>> are the > >>> product of culture or temperament. I think that the key here is good > > >>> will, > >>> consultation, and due diligence. Very simple compared to a code of > >>> laws - > >>> even if it is intended only for consumption as "a choice wine". > > >>> We also have a rich enough culture to know how to prevent schism - > >>> As far as > >>> I can tell, the Royal Society was the first to achieve this by > >>> abolishing > >>> the role of doctrinal authority and rejecting concepts such as > >>> infallibility. > > >>> ____________________________________________________________ > >>> Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the num...@timothycasey.info to =A0 > >>> email. > >>> Philosophical Essays:http://timothycasey.info > >>> Speed Reading:http://speed-reading-comprehension.com > >>> Software:http://fieldcraft.biz;ScientificIQ Test, Web Menus, > >>> Security. > >>> Science & Geology:http://geologist-1011.com;http:// > >>> geologist-1011.net > >>> Technical & Web Design:http://web-design-1011.com > >>> -- > >>> GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. Seewww.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC > >>> The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. > >>> If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end =A0 > >>> SPAM > >>> Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer > >>> today!- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 8 10:44:14 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 724FF4B0C40 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 10:44:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x--QTGXeNPKh for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 10:44:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id BC1CB4B0C3E; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 10:44:12 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 09:44:28 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 23:11:59 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=x9sk2ph+5fyuf9FdOp6UeA9pLOebxxWFsyaI9yQLgLXVWtz2l8eb1zA1yWJMT8EwEkRG86wjtI5ZtSnsRbPEhsSFkfXVI+pYUfrIURG6FAC5K/5RgW/qncbu3FM6ZEOthm3G96CJCByVqgPhRClRYICgof/PrNuWOzb8nwvKVkU= ; X-YMail-OSG: GT1kNogVM1l5Hph3f.CadfqtmCcPHFD_CTOtkv1fCd07TumbKp4fbgFigwtzwGMjVYi5srViCYEj2b3BG8Qw12cK3auCX7cQ89uTuxQf8ByZzL06Uj6xBQ0NWHW9uRFkYyzApiHkwInVhuQg5ezONtto5qxizuh6Om3p19Pl X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 23:11:47 -0400 References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KnPSq-0006Pl-SN X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-QHiAnOhyUOWq+hbd/CUwKmRV8oQsHD3xWSXFVLoDxE+moOY+WKH7BV/SLsYxHn7L/ipoxH80VgYKFQV!FemMwFzTd5UE05Czl2UwoxhRIdrQr1Xo/wUP9S5TV4ptUhq6oCGMVnT0VTsIBRnE7svAtXGJ/Q== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25416 You are misunderstanding what I said. Maybe you need read some of the crime stats. Alcohol and drugs, legal and illegal are related to all crimes such as burglary, robbery, rape, violent crimes, auto theft, etc., etc. etc. The Inmates in our Jail are charged with all these crimes and more and if you were to question them you would find that alcohol and drugs are the reason they committed the crimes. It has nothing to do with whether alcohol and drugs are legal or illegal it has to do with these chemicals are the chief cause of those crimes. doug On Oct 7, 2008, at 7:59 PM, compx2 wrote: > Hi Doug, > >> I find in my classes at >> the Jail that 70% of all crime is related to alcohol and drugs. > > It seems to me that 100% of all relation with illegal drugs is a > crime. I don't think you are talking about legal drugs, so the > statistic of 70% seems quite low. If a drug is involved it is a > crime. > > --Kent From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 8 10:44:42 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D3B64B0941 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 10:44:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p68DL0bZboGZ for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 10:44:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 034DD4B0C4B; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 10:44:40 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 09:45:13 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 23:20:20 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=FRX3LJEDqUq+2WNE3Q2Xqj1PHc26Q9hxImuv6U55p05WUB1fySVloEVJGCpJbm+1Fk24xcClU2SCKhC9vU1sNao8s1fBdzT4mUf7Rtd1ve4UuKpOKVBs2xYCmw3yzK7s89UljVKKyDx0s0AnfJR0+pk7MYPjffz9zNQCtG7n6yc= ; X-YMail-OSG: drpY6LAVM1kx77xwnosUxMfQmsK4V1lL1PetHljKyEEWfoPOBYCpuT6ZqMukEm6jm.7G69bJ0I5tfk1hgUyfNIwoTtNtLnbTb33Lnuc_EzZnX_y3HDpU65A50mHQfjHtBFVZpnrlfDT8jSeiNXNJo0lX X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 23:20:11 -0400 References: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KnPaz-00074n-DO X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-tZs9yR+3q+ZjIydjuEDXbtCzIkilOJQaj54+XLbsf1dikNGFNHNwKRLv9eRZfzrj2LBYmQFrPU0IWza!5fj5U0ZTwXxGvHEcDAxaKVexMxjlFyzYl6qFR2jM+kDHlMJK0fncob15Og2b45VxapOkExxTSA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25417 I have read the message Kent, the use of the terms "she" or "he" did not distract me. I was addressing why you used these terms. The rest of the message I am unclear about. What does the term infallible mean to you when referenced to the Master, Guardian and House of Justice. Also you say we cannot verify all of His Revelation and then you give an example of how the Revelation will have positive effects on us if we follow it. That seems to me to be effects that we can verify. Also it could be that in our current methodologies we are unable to prove many aspects of the Revelation but that does not mean we won't be able to in the future. In fact the House issued a statement saying our current methodologies are not capable of understanding the Writings (not sure of the exact wording but something to that effect). It seems they want us to develop a new methodology. I'm not sure how this thread got started or why. regards, doug On Oct 7, 2008, at 8:30 PM, compx2 wrote: > Hi Doug, > > I am reminded of the Taliban and Wahhabi style Islam. You say "if > the Manifestation uses the term "He" then shouldn't we also?" > > Should we call women "handmaiden"? Is the sun really better called > the "dayspring"? Should we all live as Baha'u'llah lived and eschew > all modern conveniences? > >> I think you should accept what is derived from the harmony of >> reason and faith or science and religion. > > I think you should accept that I will accept what I accept, just as I > accept that you accept what you accept. I don't see your points as > reasonable, but I understand what you are saying. On the other hand > you do not understand what I am saying. > >> Are you saying the Beloved Master, Guardian and House of Justice are >> not infallible? I do not understand why you are even disputing this. > > I think disputing is the wrong word. But it is clear that you have > not read the message, perhaps distracted by the female pronouns. > Since you keep bringing it up, I will give you another opportunity to > read it. After you have read it, then please ask me about it if you > want. I have removed the female references so as to distract you less > from the point. > >> But as a Baha'i I have an obligation to understand the usage of the >> word > (infallible) in relation to the institutions of the Faith and the > Central F > igures. I have reconciled it myself with an understanding of the > purpose > of God's revelation, that God works in broad strokes. In His > revelation He > has provided a matrix of understanding, the elimination of > prejudice, spir > itual solution to economic problems, progressive revelation from > God, indep > endent investigation... All of His revelation cannot be empirically > verifi > ed, but the promise that should we adopt these principles and follow > His pr > oscriptions we will become better people and attract His > confirmations. I > believe this is a major covenant between God and humanity, a major > connecti > on that can only benefit humanity, and each of us personally. > >> That is infallible. > > > > > > > On Oct 7, 12:27 pm, Douglas McAdam > wrote: >> On Oct 6, 2008, at 9:06 PM, compx2 wrote: >> >>> Hi Doug. >> >>> The reason I referred to God as "She" was to accomodate someone >>> else. >>> If you look at the message to which I was responding when I wrote it >>> you will see that. This is the second time I have told you this. >> >> And Kent, this is the second or maybe third time I have said that if >> the Manifestation uses the term "He" then shouldn't we also? Why >> reinforce someones' use of a term that is not being used by the >> Manifestation? >> >> >> >>>> My understanding from the Writings and from what I have read from >>>> those scholars who have fluency in the original source >>>> languages ... >> >>> The understanding I have is from my own independent investigation of >>> truth. Whose truth do you think I will accept, my own >>> investigation, >>> or the truth you report from others that you respect? >> >> And my understanding is from my own independent investigation which >> includes science and what scholar fluent in the original languages >> say. I think you should accept what is derived from the harmony of >> reason and faith or science and religion. >> >> >> >>> I would not respect myself, Doug, if I accepted your reported >>> experts >>> without investigating. So, for me, I would like to see what issues >>> and points they make, not their conclusions. I can make my own >>> conclusions if you can give me the verifiable facts. >> >> Who is asking you to accept what experts say Kent? Not me, for sure. >> In the matter of use of the term "She" I gave you the facts. The >> Manifestation did not use the term "She" in reference to God and so I >> go by Him and not by experts. >> >> >> >>> So I find your reasoning that, since Baha'u'llah was infallible >>> anyone >>> He says is infallible is therefore infallible, less than convincing. >>> I would go into again, but I don't think you read what I write. If >>> you are interested, I recently wrote something to Tim that he found >>> "beautiful" that explained a little of my view of infallibility. If >>> you would like to discuss it with me further, please let's start >>> there. I know your view, you do not know mine. >> >> Are you saying the Beloved Master, Guardian and House of Justice are >> not infallible? I do not understand why you are even disputing this. >> >> doug >> >> >> >> >> >>> --Kent >> >>> On Oct 6, 12:13 pm, Douglas McAdam >>> wrote: >>>> Hi Tim and Kent- >>>> I am wondering about something. >>>> My understanding from the Writings and from what I have read from >>>> those scholars who have fluency in the original source languages >>>> say >>>> that the Manifestation has essential infallibility and He has >>>> conferred infallibility upon the Master who in turn conferred >>>> infallibility upon the Guardian and House of Justice. The Beloved >>>> Master gave us some knowledge about all this in several places. He >>>> explained essential infallibility and how certain holy souls are >>>> capable of acquiring this condition of conferred infallibility and >>>> are >> >>>> not subject to error. The argument you mention that has happened >>>> on >> >>>> discussions appeared to be about how the Master, Guardian and House > >>>> of >> >>>> Justice are not inerrant but that the original word for >>>> infallibility >>>> actually meant "protection" or "sinlessness" I think. >> >>>> What I would like to know is what is the original word for >>>> "essential" >> >>>> and what is the original word for "infallibility". >>>> I'm somewhat confused by all this and also wondered about how >>>> English >>>> is translated back into the original sources languages. For >>>> example >> >>>> how is the word infallible in relation to the Master, Guardian and >>>> House of Justice translated back into Arabic or Persian? >> >>>> It strikes me strange that we can attribute total essential >>>> infallibility to the Manifestation who is without error and then >>>> when >>>> He appoints the Master and confers infallibility upon him that some >>>> will attribute an error to the Master or the Guardian. To me that >>>> would mean the Manifestation (God speaking to us) made an error in >>>> conferring infallibility upon the Master,etc. >> >>>> We are fallible and we then judge the Central Figures and that does >>>> not seem to me to be reasonable nor spiritual. >> >>>> Also Kent, where in the Writings, either in the source language >>>> or in >>>> any other language is the Manifestation referred to as "She"? I > >>>> know >> >>>> that God is genderless but yet if the Manifestation said "He" then >>>> who >> >>>> are we to change it? >> >>>> regards, >>>> doug >> >>>> On Oct 5, 2008, at 9:18 PM, Number Eleven - GPEMC! wrote: >> >>>>> "compx2" wrote in message >>>>> news:LZOdnf3eiuGJ8EDVnZ2dnUVZ_oPinZ2d@giganews.com... >>>>>> Hi again, Tim. >> >>>>>> I am having great difficulty posting here, having tried to post >>>>>> this >>>>>> one several times as well as others. >> >>>>>> The issue of infallibility has been discussed around here several >>>>>> times in my years reading this forum. I suggest that if you want > >>>>>> to >>>>>> seriously discuss the issue further we should start a new thread. >> >>>>>> But as a Baha'i I have an obligation to understand the usage of >>>>>> the >>>>>> word in relation to the institutions of the Faith and the Central >>>>>> Figures. I have reconciled it myself with an understanding of >>>>>> the >>>>>> purpose of God's revelation, that God works in broad strokes. In > >>>>>> He >>> r >>>>>> revelation She has provided a matrix of understanding, the >>>>>> elimination >>>>>> of prejudice, spiritual solution to economic problems, >>>>>> progressive >>>>>> revelation from God, independent investigation... All of Her >>>>>> revelation cannot be empirically verified, but the promise that >>>>>> should >>>>>> we adopt these principles and follow Her proscriptions we will >>>>>> become >>>>>> better people and attract Her confirmations. >>>>>> I believe this is a major covenant between God and humanity, a >>>>>> major >>>>>> connection that can only benefit humanity, and each of us >>>>>> personally. >> >>>>>> That is infallible. >> >>>>>>> --Kent >>>>> [SNIP] >> >>>>> I think that's beautiful Kent. Although my experience leads me to >>>>> somewhat >>>>> different beliefs, I have always agreed with the major >>>>> principles of >> >>>>> the >>>>> Baha'i Faith - such as those you have mentioned. >> >>>>> However, I am particularly cautious of arbitrary proscription >>>>> because every >>>>> human being already knows how to correctly derive a just >>>>> proscription. We >>>>> can all put ourselves in the shoes of others an empathise with >>>>> them, >> >>>>> and we >>>>> all know how to find out which expectations are universal and >>>>> which >>>>> are the >>>>> product of culture or temperament. I think that the key here is >>>>> good >> >>>>> will, >>>>> consultation, and due diligence. Very simple compared to a code of >>>>> laws - >>>>> even if it is intended only for consumption as "a choice wine". >> >>>>> We also have a rich enough culture to know how to prevent schism - >>>>> As far as >>>>> I can tell, the Royal Society was the first to achieve this by >>>>> abolishing >>>>> the role of doctrinal authority and rejecting concepts such as >>>>> infallibility. >> >>>>> ____________________________________________________________ >>>>> Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the num...@timothycasey.info to >>>>> email. >>>>> Philosophical Essays:http://timothycasey.info >>>>> Speed Reading:http://speed-reading-comprehension.com >>>>> Software:http://fieldcraft.biz;ScientificIQ Test, Web Menus, >>>>> Security. >>>>> Science & Geology:http://geologist-1011.com;http:// >>>>> geologist-1011.net >>>>> Technical & Web Design:http://web-design-1011.com >>>>> -- >>>>> GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. Seewww.fieldcraft.biz/ >>>>> GPEMC >>>>> The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public >>>>> use. >>>>> If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end >>>>> SPAM >>>>> Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer >>>>> today!- Hide quoted text - >> >>>> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 8 10:45:25 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECE344B0C46 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 10:45:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iYk7XvgL0Zol for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 10:45:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 973804B0C4B; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 10:45:24 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 09:45:26 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 03:37:47 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.4.0.080122 Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 20:37:20 -1100 Subject: Prohibition From: Bill Hyman Thread-Topic: Prohibition Thread-Index: AckpGLIO8HvlmJULEd2HGQAwZXfiJg== In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at blueskynet.as X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KnTc7-0006nT-Ea X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-Ep6RKVqX6XbtYU24bjiaY/p1r91JUuThBBTZKTGQlkDYNw5h2WYmm5ny9nL+Dq3EXXejkRL68EWF8gN!EcLiyhPramk5PM5u1Y2qh1X/7rcij4hDd0Q2IieUtoBcjTXekkumKF9mmOuPwJWTmAzC0HUL5w== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25418 I would like to see prohibition laws return, but I would like to see them enforced properly. In the USA there were too many police protected speak easies during the last round. Sure organized crime increased, and there was some violent crime, but a lot of it was gangsters killing each other - not a great social loss. There is a much greater social loss now when alcohol is legal, including many deaths and disablements from increased traffic accidents. The social cost is tremendous. Alcohol causes far more trauma than marijuana, which is illegal, and more than all the illegal drugs combined. It is a major curse to humanity. The Lord of the Age has banned its use and the sooner the majority accepts Baha'u'llah's revelation the better off the world will be. Maybe we cannot legislate morality, but we could improve it by passing enforceable prohibition laws. Maybe the spiritual standards of society are too low to have them enforceable at this time, but we have to start somewhere. Bring back prohibition! Bill From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 8 10:45:33 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F6EF4B0C51 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 10:45:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XPuh8C5y+4W0 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 10:45:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 7E2084B0C50; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 10:45:32 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 09:45:40 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 03:49:51 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.4.0.080122 Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 20:49:34 -1100 Subject: Re: thousand years as one day, but why Christianity and Islam are only 621 yeas apart? From: Bill Hyman Thread-Topic: thousand years as one day, but why Christianity and Islam are only 621 yeas apart? Thread-Index: AckpGmeNphEB3pUNEd2HGQAwZXfiJg== In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at blueskynet.as X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KnTnm-0002uq-H4 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-avT5NIyaIRN67wFAaBS4VeXuwq3MOz7E+Dha2pQDdQoyhzM0RmOtEUyiC56A89+90snsGD5htCONmrD!NGXr23psPMha/0rpHvuYAYf5Mu0+XZ6ndwdiDxvFuAnMdy6EgmK6jAOFlLRj8lKqDyxVvJWSnA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25419 Hi Omid: Somehow I do not think that this means exactly a thousand year but an approximate average. There was almost two thousand years for Christianity and Islam before Baha'u'llah's revelation, and He prophesied more specifically that there would not be another direct revelation from God for a full one thousand years. God doeth whatsoever He willeth. Bill On 10/7/08 7:34 AM, "celestial.tree.of.love@gmail.com" wrote: > Recently a question was brought up and I don't know the answer for it: > it has been revealed in Quran : 32:5: that the cause of god is > returned in a day. a day that is thousand years. But the duration of > Christianity is only 621 years? > Thanks in advance for your time. > Omid > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 8 10:46:13 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEA514B0C57 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 10:46:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MsKtiHcWlCuc for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 10:46:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 6CD7E4B0C5A; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 10:46:12 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance From: compx2 Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 04:41:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> Organization: http://groups.google.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai X-Trace: sv3-5YtnfLZuVlNzF4xZggbBvyd7loj3BU9xNAxecOa04D71z7ygw5/NzOJv4uXaJ7r4FKwjbfAFnCyVeI+!uTZf9Z21oZCq5zQ8DIS0zBgTdg5YIRnEIBfKCxZd17wIvta22dMaj7boE4lAXVYbVM3wlma8iQ== NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 09:46:23 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 07:44:23 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: u27g2000pro.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.2.209; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KnXSj-0003t7-8j X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 X-Original-Bytes: 4296 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25420 The way I see it, Mike and Doug are arguing for social intolerance toward the consumption of alcohol around the world. They quote biased statistics and espous personal intolerance of the people who drink alcohol, Mike doesn't like to go to restaurants that serve alcohol and Doug argues that if someone knows drinking alcohol is against Baha'I law they should know enough to stop drinking it, that any argument is "rationalization". One of Doug's arguments is founded on this question "Are the Ten Commandments only for Christian's?" So Doug, are the Ten Commandments the foundation for secular law? What punishment is in store for those who refuse to honor father and mother? What should that punishment be? Who should decide the punishment? How about adultery, universally recognized as wrong. But hardly anywhere ruled by secular law will arrest or fine adulterers. Perhaps those who violate the sabbath should be displayed in the town square. How would you punish those who break this commandment? 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.' What about holding a god before God? Fine or imprisonment? If the Ten Commandments were crimes every single person alive would be a criminal. 100% of crime would be related to the Ten Commandments. Well, that is five of ten, Doug. They are many thousands of years old and not universally illegal, but you are arguing for a Baha'i Law, which holds even less sway among Baha'is as a commandment, should be illegal when fully half of the Ten Commandments are not. And Mike, you said "Why should I tolerate it in my life? I don't and beyond the near misses on the road and bad resturaunts it has little bearing on me. What I don't want is my child being indoctrinated by a culture and television ads that paint alcohol as the manly thing or presented as the drug of longevity." Sounds like Jim Crow, separate but equal. Perhaps we could pass laws that allow drinking, but those who drink are second-class citizens. Could you tolerate people who drink if they were sanctioned? --Kent From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 8 10:47:19 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92D514B0C57 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 10:47:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sWKW16oRr4MK for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 10:47:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 94A8D4B0C55; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 10:47:18 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 09:47:32 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 10:32:58 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=jVkcZl0v5EvWGeRHQFgY8pSpIZONLQKRI1epPamoMJiJ35TA/bWQFOJ3+a5fGgzNitjgHeLtmAWBR47/4qz1zS6EXdCStYDUtyMYXxxTTDo+CBhHx8FkrZ/SLg1IApLwzUvxPOD9U4ZeYHnjwxbat42OvraSQG2can/Y0LZAEvQ= ; X-YMail-OSG: XFmWLzwVM1lmDqpUMV_A7jdQTWHYi6q3RzM2jFC3WQChhlp0J2cFhPsiIfklcRkBfUlNE2lwS21MBu7EPgtNHaXcuIBnuS6W5urQSaTB2MByVEIxixtK8quvDoIVLDSnQGC3wcPu40Wy18uizJ8hBG__ X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 10:32:29 -0400 References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kna5g-0008DP-LF X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-0.713, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, IMPOTENCE 1.89) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-lVPKt4JRMX2rmjqC0btoOv8xcR4kEpjgPCD2b5UVs11L8Ss7Uy1PkdnsU70emQzH5pZF3Ww6doind6r!AWNhX9XnqgDytKuoHfTMyLjDn7sB/+B9AP+zLACIFqSMOi8wA9us7dt92rYA2VOyD/I95WVkKg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25421 Dear Kent-please see inserted comments On Oct 7, 2008, at 7:55 PM, compx2 wrote: > Hi Mark, > >> I >> have no intention of arguing that alcohol should be illegal. I do >> argue in favor of programs to discredit alcohol and regulations to >> limit where alcohol can be consumed. > > I don't get it. You say you agree with Doug, who says " Many of our > laws today are based on the Ten Commandments yet no all mankind are > Jewish or Christian. Wouldn't it be realistic to predict that in the > future our civil laws will be based on the Baha'i Revelation ?" > > You both deny you think alcohol should be illegal while arguing that > alcohol should be illegal. I don't understand the point of your > intolerance to people who drink alcohol if you think they have a right > to drink alcohol. If this intolerance were racism it would be like > saying blacks are equal with us whites, it is just that they are dirty > and stupid and you don't want them in your neighborhood. If you > tolerated alcohol you would say that you choose not to drink, but > anyone else should enjoy it if they wish. You might as well tell me > some of your best friends drink alcohol. I never denied that alcohol should be illegal. In fact my thinking is that if God prohibited it then civil law should be the same, thus making it illegal. I also do not have intolerance of people who drink alcohol, I have intolerance for their behavior, the drinking of alcohol and its effects. Why would anyone tolerant something that harms a member of our human family and society at large? The analogy to racism simply does not apply. > > Maybe I am about to discover some deep, hidden truth about Baha'is. > It seems Baha'is think God is going to enforce His law and perform all > the deeds that Baha'is don't want to perform. I have no idea what or why you say this. Can you explain please? God has already built into His system the process of reward and punishment. When it comes to alcohol He has forbidden the use of it other than for medicinal purposes when prescribed by a doctor. Are we going to change that Law to suite ourselves or are we going to obey as we should? > Maybe Baha'is think > they don't have to act, that God will make alcohol illegal and bring > peace and take rich people's money and give it to the poor. Maybe > Baha'is generally don't realize that their views are Baha'i views, > that they represent Baha'u'llah, that when Baha'is side with Palestine > or Prohibition 2k+ or socialism or Arctic drilling they are putting > those partisan topics on my religion. God has already made alcohol illegal Kent. Haven't you read the Aqdas? I have no idea why you are mentioning Prohibtion 2k or socialism and Artic drilling. I do not know what your religion is but I'm talking about the Baha'i Faith. > > >> What comes across as casually >> acceptable to you, is offensive and ruinous of the atmosphere to me. > > And that comes across as intolerant to me. I have seen obnoxious > people who have not been drinking, and if someone who is obnoxious has > been drinking I am not likely to blame the alcohol. And if they > themselves say that their words were from the drink, well that is to > acknowledge a problem with alcohol. So alcohol is a problem for them, > but that does not mean it is a problem for me or Paul or anyone else. > I spend time with drinkers at an open bar twice a month. I usually > just leave early. I don't think less of them and they don't think > less of me, to my knowledge. Like I said, we should be intolerant of bad behavior but yet we also should love each soul. Alcohol is a problem for everyone Kent, whether we ourselves imbibe or not. We are supposed to be as one family. Now if that one family were husband, wife and two children and the husband drank would that not hurt the entire family? > > >> But you have to wonder, does it make you an aggressive >> driver? Does it make you prone towards violence? > > Agressive driving and violence are bad. Alcohol in and of itself is > not. This sounds like the argument about guns i.e. "Guns don't kill, people do". Alcohol has good uses but when we drink it then it is harmful to us. I would think that any scientific study of the use of alcohol would easily show the bad effects outweigh any good. If the majority of the public shunned alcohol we would not be having all these problems. God has prohibited the drinking of alcohol and I will not tolerate it and will do everything in my power to teach people what God wishes for us. My intolerance of the use of alcohol and drugs has caused me to provide a Baha'i based and derived program for Prevention, Rehab., and Aftercare service work in an SED project in answer to the Plan of the House of Justice in 1984. regards, doug > > > --Kent > > On Oct 7, 10:03 am, mikera...@yahoo.com wrote: >> On Oct 6, 8:15 pm, compx2 wrote: >> >>> Hi Mike, >> >>>> I'll refer you to my post in 'God's side.' But alcohol is >>>> officially >>>> classed as a carcinogen. >> >>> Would I be marginalizing your position if I asked if you intend to >>> outlaw every carcinogen? >> >> Before we go too far with this, let me be clear about my position. I >> have no intention of arguing that alcohol should be illegal. I do >> argue in favor of programs to discredit alcohol and regulations to >> limit where alcohol can be consumed. Like with smoking, I don't like >> the idea of sharing a resturant with people who are drinking, not >> because I think they're going to hell or anything else like that. But >> because I have all too often witnessed people becomming belligerant, >> loud and obnoxious. I don't want it around me, and as a family man, I >> don't want it around my children. What comes across as casually >> acceptable to you, is offensive and ruinous of the atmosphere to >> me. I >> don't want to deal with it on the roads should I have the misfortune >> of being out late on a friday. >> >> Why should I tolerate it in my life? I don't and beyond the near >> misses on the road and bad resturaunts it has little bearing on me. >> What I don't want is my child being indoctrinated by a culture and >> television ads that paint alcohol as the manly thing or presented as >> the drug of longevity. These are patent lies. Our science says >> otherwise, it says that alcohol consumed in sufficient amounts lead >> to >> erectile dysfunction, hardly a manly thing, It says that at the >> levels >> of 1-2 drinks a day it can be a carcinogen. If you want longevity >> drink grape juice. But the alcohol industry isn't going to push that >> message. >> >> Will I tolerate it? So long as it doesn't impose on my rights. >> People >> are just now waking up to the lies behind smoking and I think it wont >> be long before they wake up to the evils of alcohol. I don't see >> Baha'is as oppressing the drinkers out there, but I do see them using >> the same tactics that were used with smoking. >> >> Here's something to chew on. >> >> "Extent of the Alcohol-Violence Association >> >> Based on published studies, Roizen (3) summarized the percentages of >> violent offenders who were drinking at the time of the offense as >> follows: up to 86 percent of homicide offenders, 37 percent of >> assault >> offenders, 60 percent of sexual offenders, up to 57 percent of men >> and >> 27 percent of women involved in marital violence, and 13 percent of >> child abusers. These figures are the upper limits of a wide range of >> estimates. In a community-based study, Pernanen (4) found that 42 >> percent of violent crimes reported to the police involved alcohol, >> although 51 percent of the victims interviewed believed that their >> assailants had been drinking."http://www.athealth.com/consumer/disorders/ > angeralcohol.html >> >> Those are some pretty damning stats. One or two drinks may not make >> you homicidal. But you have to wonder, does it make you an aggressive >> driver? Does it make you prone towards violence? > > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 8 13:08:45 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CDC04B0B94 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:08:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kveU9geT6syt for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:08:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 004E04B0C22; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:08:43 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 12:08:40 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 12:16:04 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=znocZhP1SoR1dsXYsBATJ9FeIK1DrzUC5d3O2BBT/CTaYiYHtrgreAQyu9/EYz2ex7fzgfBXUaXTN1SuviIoaTGBAgANGvnThXUbPqgSUq1Kgw2dkMQO+VueDISbw3dDP4D0aeNMBQOviqA8vdMvxEBefRVyBkENEgTaJz/MkAo= ; X-YMail-OSG: Dx0CbMgVM1mDFBMnzplg1ejU.n3SEpNAZHK2MHhbSgQBd3RBmQ2uK0nawxDvyveSZtG5FApXQc6lxHNT11SHBiDjBk4z_MpomEbOsjtlrrt6jpwzGHs9aRYkoYe0mWDWQVuPeD9zypDC_j6ZpBOgb_Mj0mC35pwWATV1AH3P X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 12:15:43 -0400 References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Knbhd-00086l-FT X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: <7uadnXpC9NqFdHHVnZ2dnUVZ_oPinZ2d@giganews.com> X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-0UftFiF0EVM95cZ736pjZZ7VNmVWuG3gX7YOtxptW2B5RXJiBi2Zx3TngjA4zkEEXcaQIwliAkBsK8l!GvPGSPq3ufLeLnL85f+L6ttotd+JHli1QpT+XF/CiD0mCh8H5LJ/BerwTH7N+z6f41vusLIgPQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25422 Kent- The Ten Commandments are Laws from God. Some have become civil laws and some are not but all bear consequences if disobeyed and that is easily proven by an unbiased observation of society. God has spoken to us again and Baha'u'llah has prohibited the drinking of alcohol and use of drugs and His laws are for all mankind and the consequences of disobedience are easily observable. These disobediences are having a negative effect on all of us Kent, even you, and in many ways not so easily observable but any objective and scientific research will prove it is better to keep than break these laws. The Baha'i Faith is the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth. The final realization of what was prophesied for thousands of years, a "day not followed by night" and we will see in the future a Baha'i Commonwealth. You have no doubt read about it in detail in the Writings in general and specifically in the Guardian's writings. All God's laws will become binding on all peoples. However the application of these laws and the entire process is quite different than what has been going on in our society for centuries now. The Houses of Justice will be administering justice in a much purer form than what our civil govt. has been doing. I do not tolerate disease, poor food, alcohol, drugs, racism and all forms of prejudice or anything that interferes with the soul becoming more developed but that does not mean I go around judging people. On the contrary I spend most of my time doing service work to help end these problems and lead souls to the Faith. If others wish to drink alcohol that is their business but if they ask my opinion I will give them the truth about how I feel and what the Writings say. But I do it in a loving way as best I can. Sounds to me like you are saying that all the studies against the use of alcohol and drugs are biased. Whether they are or not is beside the point for me because I accept Baha'u'llah and believe and strive to obey His laws and teach others as best I can to do likewise. regards, doug On Oct 8, 2008, at 7:41 AM, compx2 wrote: > The way I see it, Mike and Doug are arguing for social intolerance > toward the consumption of alcohol around the world. They quote biased > statistics and espous personal intolerance of the people who drink > alcohol, Mike doesn't like to go to restaurants that serve alcohol and > Doug argues that if someone knows drinking alcohol is against Baha'I > law they should know enough to stop drinking it, that any argument is > "rationalization". > > One of Doug's arguments is founded on this question "Are the Ten > Commandments only for Christian's?" > > So Doug, are the Ten Commandments the foundation for secular law? > What punishment is in store for those who refuse to honor father and > mother? What should that punishment be? Who should decide the > punishment? > > How about adultery, universally recognized as wrong. But hardly > anywhere ruled by secular law will arrest or fine adulterers. > > Perhaps those who violate the sabbath should be displayed in the town > square. > > How would you punish those who break this commandment? 'You shall not > covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, > nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his > donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.' > > What about holding a god before God? Fine or imprisonment? If the > Ten Commandments were crimes every single person alive would be a > criminal. 100% of crime would be related to the Ten Commandments. > > Well, that is five of ten, Doug. They are many thousands of years old > and not universally illegal, but you are arguing for a Baha'i Law, > which holds even less sway among Baha'is as a commandment, should be > illegal when fully half of the Ten Commandments are not. > > And Mike, you said "Why should I tolerate it in my life? I don't and > beyond the near misses on the road and bad resturaunts it has little > bearing on me. What I don't want is my child being indoctrinated by a > culture and television ads that paint alcohol as the manly thing or > presented as the drug of longevity." > > Sounds like Jim Crow, separate but equal. Perhaps we could pass laws > that allow drinking, but those who drink are second-class citizens. > Could you tolerate people who drink if they were sanctioned? > > --Kent > > > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 8 19:55:16 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA64A4B0AD1 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 19:55:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vRsTf0Q8a4tU for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 19:55:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 5091F4B0AD3; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 19:55:15 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 18:55:17 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 16:55:13 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: mikeran37@yahoo.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:54:51 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: c36g2000prc.googlegroups.com; posting-host=76.214.135.108; posting-account=M_40MwoAAACezPB6m4wCKE4LAJjMzCeb User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kng3h-0006PU-PA X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-0.202, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 2.30, RDNS_NONE 0.10) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-UnbGM3/yY/G2hTm+w4u70PCviyy5Og7qooCP4U45ivn+i++cBYYoXp6wNnfQEulgm+DZoaWiAT3N83x!ZgHc0uAZ6EHzUlF7xsh1N7IvcTPoFyJm3EywO/qNoqfXqcknaeUI4eLxlmofAh8ulai+6ywXsg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25423 >You both deny you think alcohol should be illegal while arguing that >alcohol should be illegal. I don't understand the point of your Not the case. My position has been to advocate education about alcohol and regulation over its' area and sphere of usage. >Maybe I am about to discover some deep, hidden truth about Baha'is. >It seems Baha'is think God is going to enforce His law and perform all >the deeds that Baha'is don't want to perform. Maybe Baha'is think >they don't have to act, that God will make alcohol illegal and bring >peace and take rich people's money and give it to the poor. Maybe >Baha'is generally don't realize that their views are Baha'i views, >that they represent Baha'u'llah, that when Baha'is side with Palestine >or Prohibition 2k+ or socialism or Arctic drilling they are putting >those partisan topics on my religion. Wow? Those are some hefty claims that discredit only you. Baha'is are non-political, there's nothing more to say about it. And again, in regards to your polarizing spin, if you have read any of my posts, you will not find me advocating the kind of prohibition you are talking about. >I spend time with drinkers at an open bar twice a month. I usually >just leave early. I don't think less of them and they don't think >less of me, to my knowledge. >Agressive driving and violence are bad. Alcohol in and of itself is >not. Arsenic isn't bad either, but I wont be duped into taking it for longevity's sake. Just because I wont buy the gen-pop science that your espousing doesn't make me a prohibitionist. By your reckoning crack-cocaine isn't evil, it's the people who take it. Don't blame the crack, it's just a symptom. So why regulate it? While we're at it, why not put the coke back in coke? Better yet, let's send prostitutes down to the school yard to entice male teens into drinking the stuff. For sure, you'll have a captive client base. Do you see my point? Where do we draw the line in protecting our innocent? Where do you stand? Do you believe that cocaine should be legal as well? I think that day will come when alcohol is not only shunned by the public, but is simply not made unless it is to be used as a medicine. I think when that time comes, alcohol will be treated as any other controlled substance and in that regard Doug is completely right. I don't believe that society will need to use law to enforce this, just the opposite, people will call for its regulation in a bottom up fashion. Smoking was rampant in the 50's-60's and now the tide is turning in a way that smoking and smokers will feel the societal pressures to stop. It's just a matter of educating the rest of the world and the tobacco industry will die. When were done with smoking, alcohol will be the next industry to die. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 8 19:55:26 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B89344B0AEA for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 19:55:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1Y1mRhsQHiLm for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 19:55:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 3B96A4B0AD3; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 19:55:26 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 18:55:35 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 17:08:50 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: mikeran37@yahoo.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 14:08:38 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <5e6 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: r15g2000prh.googlegroups.com; posting-host=76.214.135.108; posting-account=M_40MwoAAACezPB6m4wCKE4LAJjMzCeb User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KngGz-0007Sa-Tz X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-0.202, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 2.30, RDNS_NONE 0.10) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-rbTa2cYHCQokVnnkLcv2U/o2X7jOj29aSKet8fAsfhECyW+o1TSriWBbhQS6mYUhEI760u9FYC75KxD!VjpIALHD6k80KifRuovIr4UIlpgtysmHypgOYBMoBtbGBxjNdoYk/T1HfMrjcJH5ZBYXbm2WQw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25424 > I see no reason not to brainwash and employ counter educational > methods like the ones used against smoking and for environmental > control. =A0I am in favor of error on the side of caution. =A0But those What you call brainwashing, I call exposing the facts that be about a substance. It took close to thirty years before the tobacco industry was brought legally to account for deliberately targeting kids with the intent on addiction and hiding the truth about cancer. The alcohol industry is not any different. I bet if a warning were posted on every alcohol bottle labelling it as a carcinogen that alot of people would think twice before drinking, instead (just like in the 50's) we have shady medical reports about the good effects of alcohol on the heart, but no mention of it's carcinogenic effects? Ironically, there's a heaping mountain of evidence for its carcinogenic qualities, but scant epidemiologic data supporting the heart issue. Why is this so, and why are you afraid of the truth and letting people know the truth. And for the last time. No, we're not advocating prohibition, just knowledge. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 8 19:55:32 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E74E84B0AD3 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 19:55:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jq3SQglszZBh for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 19:55:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 8D2D94B0AEA; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 19:55:32 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 18:55:46 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 17:54:29 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: "celestial.tree.of.love@gmail.com" Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: thousand years as one day, but why Christianity and Islam are only 621 yeas apart? Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 14:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: v39g2000pro.googlegroups.com; posting-host=99.204.233.100; posting-account=h0z4eQoAAAAcvd6lLKDp8HRTVlQEzWYk User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.0.3) Gecko/2008092417 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kngz9-0002Dc-E1 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: <1b6dnZ8CZKIf1XDVnZ2dnUVZ_sDinZ2d@giganews.com> X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-STPxRbbv9n3P54MbvZdSDB1McgPmM1VSQTISYwRnYKoi2oCd+JMIwYFF7aTHgu4T/cRBmBcYdawpIAt!qeTtAKX4jldeMZJ1XhzdRbG/vtty2vdGvsHT1EN8b17eXbRrQpTONp6TQOTEErmppNnZHoBhxg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25425 Thanks for the answer Bill, I see your point, specially if we consider Islamic calender (which is lunar) and it goes faster. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 8 19:55:51 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1101C4B066B for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 19:55:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yzl2mbj2ehYU for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 19:55:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id C24274B0B3E; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 19:55:48 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 18:56:15 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 19:36:22 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 16:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: h60g2000hsg.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.2.209; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KniZm-0000Z2-Tj X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-gGILhAscY6Hyk7PJsxMR1MksMDMXohDguJb+a5skkjerYOfRy/LISS6c9V0hDs+GXLZucF8qQv4DubZ!NDi/UlPXrhJ7K5Ptd51qnTuBFExJ1p6BbPF1YlVyFvbr9DXSc7y2tn3Jh+wOKsFaXqD/mfG/aw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25426 Hi Doug, > What does the term > infallible mean to you when referenced to the Master, Guardian and > House of Justice. Me: Infallibility "is a major covenant between God and humanity, a major connection that can only benefit humanity, and each of us personally." If we accept the infallibility of the Central Figures and the Institutions of the Baha'i Faith we are accepting a covenant. We believe their guidance is infallible. So far I think you and I might agree, Doug. But the guidance offered under that covenant, Doug, is that (me again) "He has provided a matrix of understanding; the elimination of prejudice; spiritual solution to economic problems; progressive revelation from God; independent investigation... All of His Revelation cannot be empirically verified, but [we have in that Revelation] the [infallible] promise that should we adopt these principles and follow His proscriptions we will become better people and attract His confirmations." I hope that helps you understand my statements a little better. I will try to get to your other message tonight, but not promises. --Kent On Oct 7, 11:20=A0pm, Douglas McAdam wrote: > I have read the message Kent, the use of the terms "she" or "he" did =A0 > not distract me. =A0I was addressing why you used these terms. > The rest of the message I am unclear about. =A0What does the term =A0 > infallible mean to you when referenced to the Master, Guardian and =A0 > House of Justice. > Also you say we cannot verify all of His Revelation and then you give =A0 > an example of how the Revelation will have positive effects on us if =A0 > we follow it. =A0That seems to me to be effects that we can verify. =A0 > Also it could be that in our current methodologies we are unable to =A0 > prove many aspects of the Revelation =A0but that does not mean we won't =A0 > be able to in the future. =A0In fact the House issued a statement saying =A0 > our current methodologies are not capable of understanding the =A0 > Writings (not sure of the exact wording but something to that =A0 > effect). =A0It seems they want us to develop a new methodology. > > I'm not sure how this thread got started or why. > > regards, > doug > On Oct 7, 2008, at 8:30 PM, compx2 wrote: > > > > > Hi Doug, > > > I am reminded of the Taliban and Wahhabi style Islam. =A0You say "if > > the Manifestation uses the term "He" then shouldn't we also?" > > > Should we call women "handmaiden"? =A0Is the sun really better called > > the "dayspring"? =A0Should we all live as Baha'u'llah lived and eschew > > all modern conveniences? > > >> I think you should accept what is derived from the harmony of > >> reason and faith or science and religion. > > > I think you should accept that I will accept what I accept, just as I > > accept that you accept what you accept. =A0I don't see your points as > > reasonable, but I understand what you are saying. =A0On the other hand > > you do not understand what I am saying. > > >> Are you saying the Beloved Master, Guardian and House of Justice are > >> not infallible? =A0I do not understand why you are even disputing this .. > > > I think disputing is the wrong word. =A0But it is clear that you have > > not read the message, perhaps distracted by the female pronouns. > > Since you keep bringing it up, I will give you another opportunity to > > read it. =A0After you have read it, then please ask me about it if you > > want. =A0I have removed the female references so as to distract you les s > > from the point. > > >> But as a Baha'i I have an obligation to understand the usage of the =A0 > >> word > > (infallible) in relation to the institutions of the Faith and the =A0 > > Central F > > igures. =A0I have reconciled it myself with an understanding of the =A0 > > purpose > > of God's revelation, that God works in broad strokes. =A0In His =A0 > > revelation He > > has provided a matrix of understanding, the elimination of =A0 > > prejudice, spir > > itual solution to economic problems, progressive revelation from =A0 > > God, indep > > endent investigation... =A0All of His revelation cannot be empirically =A0 > > verifi > > ed, but the promise that should we adopt these principles and follow =A0 > > His pr > > oscriptions we will become better people and attract His =A0 > > confirmations. =A0I > > believe this is a major covenant between God and humanity, a major =A0 > > connecti > > on that can only benefit humanity, and each of us personally. > > >> That is infallible. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 8 22:13:23 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 000364B0AC9 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 22:13:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G6AFX9IqT07R for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 22:13:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 2DB7A4B0ACD; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 22:13:22 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 21:13:19 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 21:06:44 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 18:04:17 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: v30g2000hsa.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KnjzD-0006fb-EE X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-XDItM/icnYok0LFHgekSslIbUjxdfU8QzI95i9T1xwfSq6RCsAe/OeGEQPFfJXLyFSUcPBAWBTKADhV!kD3bhmvTJwlGR3mn2wQZ08uhPhSFEZESVF1voriNxdau2x7/6koMpMtYDlEf6YZDzypLaL6Pgw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25427 Hi Mike. > Baha'is are > non-political, there's nothing more to say about it. If that were so then Baha'is would not take political positions on things like, say, the prohibition of drugs and alcohol. > Where > do we draw the line in protecting our innocent? Where do you stand? Do > you believe that cocaine should be legal as well? Since you asked me, I think it is a political question. Whether drugs or alcohol are legal or not is a political issue, not a Baha'i one. Legal or not drugs will not change my behavior. So far as I can tell, it would empty our prisons and fill up our rehab clinics and shelters. It's a net zero sum game. But saying Baha'is are not political does not make it so. We have a Baha'i advocating a new prohibition era right here right now. That is a political position as is yours that society needs to educate children on your position against alcohol and further regulate its use. Doug's position waivers, or is inconsistent I can't tell yet. My point is that whether or not I agree with the Baha'i political position, it taints me. Me: "Maybe Baha'is generally don't realize that their views are Baha'i views, that they represent Baha'u'llah, that when Baha'is side with Palestine or Prohibition 2k+ or socialism or Arctic drilling they are putting those partisan topics on my religion." And my only defense is to argue with you. What you believe is the Baha'i Faith is NOT the Baha'i Faith. --Kent On Oct 8, 4:54=A0pm, mikera...@yahoo.com wrote: > >You both deny you think alcohol should be illegal while arguing that > >alcohol should be illegal. =A0I don't understand the point of your > > Not the case. My position has been to advocate education about alcohol > and regulation over its' area and sphere of usage. > > >Maybe I am about to discover some deep, hidden truth about Baha'is. > >It seems Baha'is think God is going to enforce His law and perform all > >the deeds that Baha'is don't want to perform. =A0Maybe Baha'is think > >they don't have to act, that God will make alcohol illegal and bring > >peace and take rich people's money and give it to the poor. =A0Maybe > >Baha'is generally don't realize that their views are Baha'i views, > >that they represent Baha'u'llah, that when Baha'is side with Palestine > >or Prohibition 2k+ or socialism or Arctic drilling they are putting > >those partisan topics on my religion. > > Wow? Those are some hefty claims that discredit only you. Baha'is are > non-political, there's nothing more to say about it. And again, in > regards to your polarizing spin, if you have read any of my posts, you > will not find me advocating the kind of prohibition you are talking > about. > > >I spend time with drinkers at an open bar twice a month. =A0I usually > >just leave early. =A0I don't think less of them and they don't think > >less of me, to my knowledge. > >Agressive driving and violence are bad. =A0Alcohol in and of itself is > >not. > > =A0Arsenic isn't bad either, but I wont be duped into taking it for > longevity's sake. Just because I wont buy the gen-pop science that > your espousing doesn't make me a prohibitionist. By your reckoning > crack-cocaine isn't evil, it's the people who take it. Don't blame the > crack, it's just a symptom. So why regulate it? While we're at it, why > not put the coke back in coke? Better yet, let's send prostitutes down > to the school yard to entice male teens into drinking the stuff. For > sure, you'll have a captive client base. Do you see my point? =A0Where > do we draw the line in protecting our innocent? Where do you stand? Do > you believe that cocaine should be legal as well? > > =A0 I think that day will come when alcohol is not only shunned by the > public, but is simply not made unless it is to be used as a medicine. > I think when that time comes, alcohol will be treated as any other > controlled substance and in that regard Doug is completely right. I > don't believe that society will need to use law to enforce this, just > the opposite, people will call for its regulation in a bottom up > fashion. Smoking was rampant in the 50's-60's and now the tide is > turning in a way that smoking and smokers will feel the societal > pressures to stop. It's just a matter of educating the rest of the > world and the tobacco industry will die. When were done with smoking, > alcohol will be the next industry to die. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 8 22:14:02 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA9CA4B0AE4 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 22:14:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 35bazRac-ShZ for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 22:14:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id A6E8C4B0AFA; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 22:14:01 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 21:13:59 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 21:30:48 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 18:30:34 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: g61g2000hsf.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KnkMX-0008Pp-9t X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-y2HsOWFSYp+YQJmrin1XSpGrW7eFPBqCTLdbfM6PAYr8p0x0LpMEwf+f3felg8GsfxtrYZPdUhipZ+p!+Bd0us6WAl7s1RbiMEpdTHJ1T4ywtajyw9PKxOMdyQ/2y9hzsIGGF5vWNtF0d0vliBVg73S1bQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25428 Hi Doug, > In fact my thinking is > that if God prohibited it then civil law should be the same, Have you ever heard of Leviticus? Wahhabi? Taliban? Slavery was acceptable right up until the Baha'i Revelation. Was it right, good, and true to own slaves 200 years ago? According to the holy scripture known as Exodus one should not approach the altar of God if one has defects in their sight. Was this holy law enforceable until the Sermon on the Mount? Or the revelation of the Holy Q'uran? Or was it only superceded by the Baha'i Revelation. How about the capital crime of working on the Sabbath? When was that law repealed? Before it was repealed, was it a good thing to kill those who worked on the Sabbath? As good as imprisoning those who drink wine with dinner? I ask because these are well recorded instances of Divine Law that, according to you, should be civil law as well, right? The Baha'i dowry and men's hair length should be enforced by the police, right? > Why would anyone tolerant something that > harms a member of our human family and society at large? Do you know how many kids are killed and maimed by trampolines? Playing High School sports? There ought to be laws, right? > The analogy > to racism simply does not apply. Intolerance is intolerance. No matter how many times you tell some people that drinking is against God's law there are some who just won't see the Light. If they don't see that Light, according to you, we must arrest them. I don't like it that you associate that intolerance with my religion, Doug. I am a Baha'i and you are asserting the Baha'i Faith teaches that alcohol should be outlawed. That is simply not true. The Baha'i Faith teaches that Baha'is should not drink alcohol. If you continue to work toward the prohibition of alcohol I would appreciate it if you did not say you are doing so as a Baha'i teaching. > Can you explain please? You are politicizing the Baha'i Faith, making it seem as though the Baha'i Faith cares about what is legal in society. My religion (the Baha'i Faith) is a-political, not involved with politics. As a Baha'i I do not advocate that anything should be legal or illegal. It is not a Baha'i position that anything should be made legal or illegal, only that the laws should be just, merciful if possible, effective and allow each of us to shine our spirits. You and CNN have an agenda, and perhaps the both of you don't even know it. But your views are not automatically correct just because they are your views. There is a world of opinion out there, Baha'i and non-Baha'i. And there is room in the Baha'i Faith for those of us who don't think a simple alcoholic drink is bad behavior. Please don't continue to make my religion (the Baha'i Faith) intolerant and political. --Kent On Oct 8, 10:32=A0am, Douglas McAdam wrote: > Dear Kent-please see inserted comments > > On Oct 7, 2008, at 7:55 PM, compx2 wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Mark, > > >> I > >> have no intention of arguing that =A0alcohol should be illegal. I do > >> argue in favor of programs to discredit alcohol and regulations to > >> limit where alcohol can be consumed. > > > I don't get it. =A0You say you agree with Doug, who says " Many of our > > laws today are based on =A0the Ten Commandments yet no all mankind are > > Jewish or Christian. =A0 Wouldn't it be realistic to predict that in th e > > future our civil laws =A0will be based on the Baha'i Revelation ?" > > > You both deny you think alcohol should be illegal while arguing that > > alcohol should be illegal. =A0I don't understand the point of your > > intolerance to people who drink alcohol if you think they have a right > > to drink alcohol. =A0If this intolerance were racism it would be like > > saying blacks are equal with us whites, it is just that they are dirty > > and stupid and you don't want them in your neighborhood. =A0If you > > tolerated alcohol you would say that you choose not to drink, but > > anyone else should enjoy it if they wish. =A0You might as well tell me > > some of your best friends drink alcohol. > > I never denied that alcohol should be illegal. =A0In fact my thinking is =A0 > that if God prohibited it then civil law =A0should be the same, thus =A0 > making it illegal. =A0I also do not have intolerance of people who drink =A0 > alcohol, I have intolerance for their behavior, the drinking of =A0 > alcohol and its effects. =A0Why would anyone tolerant something that =A0 > harms a member of our human family and society at large? =A0The analogy =A0 > to racism simply does not apply. > > > > > Maybe I am about to discover some deep, hidden truth about Baha'is. > > It seems Baha'is think God is going to enforce His law and perform all > > the deeds that Baha'is don't want to perform. > > I have no idea what or why you say this. =A0Can you explain please? =A0Go d =A0 > has already built into His system the process of reward and =A0 > punishment. =A0When it comes to alcohol He has forbidden the use of it =A0 > other than for medicinal purposes when prescribed by a doctor. =A0Are we =A0 > going to change that Law to suite ourselves or are we going to obey as =A0 > we should? > > > =A0Maybe Baha'is think > > they don't have to act, that God will make alcohol illegal and bring > > peace and take rich people's money and give it to the poor. =A0Maybe > > Baha'is generally don't realize that their views are Baha'i views, > > that they represent Baha'u'llah, that when Baha'is side with Palestine > > or Prohibition 2k+ or socialism or Arctic drilling they are putting > > those partisan topics on my religion. > > God has already made alcohol illegal Kent. =A0Haven't you read the =A0 > Aqdas? =A0I have no idea why you are mentioning Prohibtion 2k or =A0 > socialism and Artic drilling. =A0I do not know what your religion is but =A0 > I'm talking about the Baha'i Faith. > > > > >> What comes across as casually > >> acceptable to you, is offensive and ruinous of the atmosphere to me. > > > And that comes across as intolerant to me. =A0I have seen obnoxious > > people who have not been drinking, and if someone who is obnoxious has > > been drinking I am not likely to blame the alcohol. =A0And if they > > themselves say that their words were from the drink, well that is to > > acknowledge a problem with alcohol. =A0So alcohol is a problem for them , > > but that does not mean it is a problem for me or Paul or anyone else. > > I spend time with drinkers at an open bar twice a month. =A0I usually > > just leave early. =A0I don't think less of them and they don't think > > less of me, to my knowledge. > > Like I said, we should be intolerant of bad behavior but yet we also =A0 > should love each soul. =A0Alcohol is a problem for everyone Kent, =A0 > whether we ourselves imbibe or not. =A0We are supposed to be as one =A0 > family. =A0Now if that one family were husband, wife and two children =A0 > and the husband drank would that not hurt the entire family? > > > > >> But you have to wonder, does it make you an aggressive > >> driver? Does it make you prone towards violence? > > > Agressive driving and violence are bad. =A0Alcohol in and of itself is > > not. > > This sounds like the argument about guns i.e. "Guns don't kill, people =A0 > do". =A0Alcohol has good uses but when we drink it then it is harmful to =A0 > us. > > I would think that any scientific study of the use of alcohol would =A0 > easily show the bad effects outweigh any good. =A0If the majority of the =A0 > public shunned alcohol we would not be having all these problems. > > God has prohibited the drinking of alcohol and I will not tolerate it =A0 > and will do everything in my power to teach people what God wishes for =A0 > us. =A0My intolerance of the use of alcohol and drugs has caused me to =A0 > provide a Baha'i based and derived program for Prevention, Rehab., and =A0 > Aftercare service work in an SED project in answer to the Plan of the =A0 > House of Justice in 1984. > > regards, > doug > > > > > > > --Kent From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 8 22:14:17 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66E204B0AFA for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 22:14:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PAv2S2TRFkPs for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 22:14:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id A97894B0B0C; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 22:14:16 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 21:14:13 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 21:49:52 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 18:49:36 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <5e6 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: 40g2000prx.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Knkex-0001Ep-HM X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-glKPC/03CsP6CNPUSMRyL67zlol2Ro0k+CDYMK2NSTs/nZO1WR4iYW0tl7b/h4dy7X9mcKxlesz8bTM!BgElm+IrqOGWMRbrP1wAgiR6tJtlkJFCu+dHQsHCJ/iEcANVrDgSRIH7y3GAQ9GMzGCyu6iT2A== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25429 Hi again, Mike. > What you call brainwashing, I call exposing the facts that be about a > substance. One man's truth is another man's propaganda. But I don't care if a single drop of alcohol kills thousands of instant cancer just by proximity, it is not illegal, and it is not a Baha'i teaching that alcohol should be illegal. Leave my religion out of it. I am a Baha'i and I don't want your intolerance to paint me the same color as you. > And for the last time. No, we're not advocating prohibition, just > knowledge. You and I are the only ones in this discussion who are not advocating a new Prohibition. Feels funny being in the same group with you. How does it feel to you here, beside me, preaching tolerance to Baha'is? --Kent On Oct 8, 5:08=A0pm, mikera...@yahoo.com wrote: > > I see no reason not to brainwash and employ counter educational > > methods like the ones used against smoking and for environmental > > control. =A0I am in favor of error on the side of caution. =A0But those > > What you call brainwashing, I call exposing the facts that be about a > substance. It took close to thirty years before the tobacco industry > was brought legally to account for deliberately targeting kids with > the intent on addiction and hiding the truth about cancer. The alcohol > industry is not any different. I bet if a warning were posted on every > alcohol bottle labelling it as a carcinogen that alot of people would > think twice before drinking, instead (just like in the 50's) we have > shady medical reports about the good effects of alcohol on the heart, > but no mention of it's carcinogenic effects? Ironically, there's a > heaping mountain of evidence for its carcinogenic qualities, but scant > epidemiologic data supporting the heart issue. Why is this so, and why > are you afraid of the truth and letting people know the truth. > > And for the last time. No, we're not advocating prohibition, just > knowledge. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 8 23:17:31 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33EC74B0ADE for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 23:17:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QeUOkKaall0O for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 23:17:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 811E64B0B20; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 23:17:30 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 22:17:28 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 23:03:19 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=ovJ7lgnQIcTDH4cA84B/xVnhTbPowDlKq6ulzxgQfDBouG5M/k5gC0c4k1/72V7n3h+K2tXaZPHCcli44SjqS6vgNnUA0C+Y5gqsTsWB4DXGSpV2P8cmWB90YxTBytIXkJ/xfHQL5QBaNArPvFh5DBYC8L42ZppDpgyey6e6m04= ; X-YMail-OSG: MhP00HMVM1kcIUxLVqQV8VixgJkPMg0TnA__oqLTTRX9cyvjUPzlOG74LZbf2FQsSfWRTgzjt9fPHn7URpad2o1HmYg3jGSKr5JJ6Sgy5mZZe8h9I8jzJdAmkJ032.TEtqucsfQYHjPUKoiy7XSp4.u9 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 23:03:10 -0400 References: <5e6 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Knlo2-00073q-Jl X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-gte2io1tP2PtFySvLCBe4TAnvQZasKp3+E9EQ3PWeqqeEqalNtG9ma1qQs3YEtQOzdvkIaRZxiTH1cg!m9T5NAWySh9GWQOU/vKk51wYWf5QEMJM3IHErxmGA2rlvNGc0TwDjnapEot5J04KF0nrqABUgg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25430 Hi Mike- I agree except that my thinking is that if the Manifestation has prohibited alcohol and drugs then I would advocate prohibition. regards, doug On Oct 8, 2008, at 5:08 PM, mikeran37@yahoo.com wrote: > >> I see no reason not to brainwash and employ counter educational >> methods like the ones used against smoking and for environmental >> control. I am in favor of error on the side of caution. But those > > What you call brainwashing, I call exposing the facts that be about a > substance. It took close to thirty years before the tobacco industry > was brought legally to account for deliberately targeting kids with > the intent on addiction and hiding the truth about cancer. The alcohol > industry is not any different. I bet if a warning were posted on every > alcohol bottle labelling it as a carcinogen that alot of people would > think twice before drinking, instead (just like in the 50's) we have > shady medical reports about the good effects of alcohol on the heart, > but no mention of it's carcinogenic effects? Ironically, there's a > heaping mountain of evidence for its carcinogenic qualities, but scant > epidemiologic data supporting the heart issue. Why is this so, and why > are you afraid of the truth and letting people know the truth. > > And for the last time. No, we're not advocating prohibition, just > knowledge. > > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 8 23:17:38 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBB934B0ADE for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 23:17:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GcQESzqAN3iQ for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 23:17:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 340D44B0B60; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 23:17:38 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 22:17:36 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 23:08:18 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: ajv Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Please let us teach the Faith in Israel Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 20:08:08 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <18OdnUufLJcGQELVnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@giganews.com> <6fadnaNcWdtCg33VnZ2dnUVZ_uCdnZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: 64g2000hsm.googlegroups.com; posting-host=67.61.22.76; posting-account=5hiaogoAAACPzYWz4wIuUrvX7FKDFdQ1 User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.0.3) Gecko/2008092417 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Knlst-0007F6-73 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-CxBe6KhyvRf+A4R9T4jS4JW3+N+VR/a9mlXw7wIJO3ykqDUUOyCWiA3BCstufneNyO3S/bImKBZOh+d!ANntA8lMebS0mx40ORFQxxcyl0XZ2EOo8zIiFgdO3tsdO4xPctBri2GvVW18lTbkX06kgISWMg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25431 On Oct 1, 12:16=A0pm, Douglas McAdam wrote: > Hi Mike- > The only time I have heard or read Baha'is using the term "conversion" =A0 > or "converts" has been amongst ourselves and it is always a positive =A0 > thing. You mean like the Guardian used the term? "The translation and publication of Bah=E1'=ED literature in the European and American Indian languages, allocated to your Assembly and its European Teaching Committee under the provisions of the Ten-Year Plan, is yet another objective of this second phase of this World Crusade, a task that must be resolutely pursued and speedily consummated in order to facilitate the intensive teaching activity which, at a later stage, must be conducted for the purpose of converting a considerable number of the minority races in both Europe and America to the Faith of Bah=E1'u'll=E1h." regards, Albert Verbrugh (Shoghi Effendi, Citadel of Faith, p. 129) From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 8 23:39:58 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D5DD4B0B6E for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 23:39:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RL0YyYdHzwm5 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 23:39:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 13A854B0B7A; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 23:39:57 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 22:40:31 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 23:18:35 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: ajv Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 20:18:23 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com; posting-host=67.61.22.76; posting-account=5hiaogoAAACPzYWz4wIuUrvX7FKDFdQ1 User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.0.3) Gecko/2008092417 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Knm2n-0007wm-2r X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-meWgPl5PDw7xkh/uhwdfM0jASocdpqURl7UFSEMZaoLWnk/dF9k5Pb/p8mnyXAmZQkz92jdcX4r4K6m!Hx48JcP9kj+Vg8LdI9nQ+U4+LLqekJywEIVd6jOpeMbB0RUUVa8GOcSvcNzTn9Vu7Ucrq0PDgg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25432 Kent wrote; "Should we all live as Baha'u'llah lived and eschew all modern conveniences?" Baha'u'llah was a prisoner and he lived in the 19th century. Modern conveniences? Regards, Albert On Oct 7, 7:30=A0pm, compx2 wrote: > Hi Doug, > > I am reminded of the Taliban and Wahhabi style Islam. =A0You say "if > the Manifestation uses the term "He" then shouldn't we also?" > > Should we call women "handmaiden"? =A0Is the sun really better called > the "dayspring"? =A0Should we all live as Baha'u'llah lived and eschew > all modern conveniences? > > > =A0I think you should accept what is derived from the harmony of > > reason and faith or science and religion. > > I think you should accept that I will accept what I accept, just as I > accept that you accept what you accept. =A0I don't see your points as > reasonable, but I understand what you are saying. =A0On the other hand > you do not understand what I am saying. > > > Are you saying the Beloved Master, Guardian and House of Justice are > > not infallible? =A0I do not understand why you are even disputing this. > > I think disputing is the wrong word. =A0But it is clear that you have > not read the message, perhaps distracted by the female pronouns. > Since you keep bringing it up, I will give you another opportunity to > read it. =A0After you have read it, then please ask me about it if you > want. =A0I have removed the female references so as to distract you less > from the point. > > > But as a Baha'i I have an obligation to understand the usage of the wor d > > (infallible) in relation to the institutions of the Faith and the Central F > igures. =A0I have reconciled it myself with an understanding of the =A0pu rpose > of God's revelation, that God works in broad strokes. =A0In His revelatio n He > =A0has provided a matrix of understanding, the elimination of prejudice, spir > itual solution to economic problems, progressive revelation from God, ind ep > endent investigation... =A0All of His revelation cannot be empirically ve rifi > ed, but the promise that should we adopt these principles and follow His pr > oscriptions we will become better people and attract His confirmations. =A0I > believe this is a major covenant between God and humanity, a major connec ti > on that can only benefit humanity, and each of us personally. > > >That is infallible. > > On Oct 7, 12:27=A0pm, Douglas McAdam > wrote: > > > On Oct 6, 2008, at 9:06 PM, compx2 wrote: > > > > Hi Doug. > > > > The reason I referred to God as "She" was to accomodate someone else. > > > If you look at the message to which I was responding when I wrote it > > > you will see that. =A0This is the second time I have told you this. > > > And Kent, this is the second or maybe third time I have said that if =A0 > > the Manifestation uses the term "He" then shouldn't we also? =A0Why =A0 > > reinforce someones' use of a term that is not being used by the =A0 > > Manifestation? > > > >> My understanding from the Writings and from what I have read from > > >> those scholars who have fluency in the original source languages ... > > > > The understanding I have is from my own independent investigation of > > > truth. =A0Whose truth do you think I will accept, my own investigatio n, > > > or the truth you report from others that you respect? > > > And my understanding is from my own independent investigation which =A0 > > includes science and what scholar fluent in the original languages =A0 > > say. =A0I think you should accept what is derived from the harmony of =A0 > > reason and faith or science and religion. > > > > I would not respect myself, Doug, if I accepted your reported experts > > > without investigating. =A0So, for me, I would like to see what issues > > > and points they make, not their conclusions. =A0I can make my own > > > conclusions if you can give me the verifiable facts. > > > Who is asking you to accept what experts say Kent? =A0Not me, for sure. > > In the matter of use of the term "She" I gave you the facts. =A0The =A0 > > Manifestation did not use the term "She" in reference to God and so I =A0 > > go by Him and not by experts. > > > > So I find your reasoning that, since Baha'u'llah was infallible anyon e > > > He says is infallible is therefore infallible, less than convincing. > > > I would go into again, but I don't think you read what I write. =A0If > > > you are interested, I recently wrote something to Tim that he found > > > "beautiful" that explained a little of my view of infallibility. =A0I f > > > you would like to discuss it with me further, please let's start > > > there. =A0I know your view, you do not know mine. > > > Are you saying the Beloved Master, Guardian and House of Justice are =A0 > > not infallible? =A0I do not understand why you are even disputing this. > > > doug > > > > --Kent > > > > On Oct 6, 12:13 pm, Douglas McAdam > > > wrote: > > >> Hi Tim and Kent- > > >> I am wondering about something. > > >> My understanding from the Writings and from what I have read from > > >> those scholars who have fluency in the original source languages say > > >> that the Manifestation has essential infallibility and He has > > >> conferred infallibility upon the Master who in turn conferred > > >> infallibility upon the Guardian and House of Justice. =A0 The Belove d > > >> Master gave us some knowledge about all this in several places. =A0H e > > >> explained essential infallibility and how certain holy souls are > > >> capable of acquiring this condition of conferred infallibility and =A0 > > >> are > > > >> not subject to error. =A0The argument you mention that has happened on > > > >> discussions appeared to be about how the Master, Guardian and House > =A0 > > >> of > > > >> Justice are not inerrant but that the original word for infallibilit y > > >> actually meant "protection" or "sinlessness" I think. > > > >> What I would like to know is what is the original word for =A0 > > >> "essential" > > > >> and what is the original word for "infallibility". > > >> I'm somewhat confused by all this and also wondered about how Englis h > > >> is translated back into the original sources languages. =A0For examp le > > > >> how is the word infallible in relation to the Master, Guardian and > > >> House of Justice translated back into Arabic or Persian? > > > >> It strikes me strange that we can attribute total essential > > >> infallibility to the Manifestation who is without error and then whe n > > >> He appoints the Master and confers infallibility upon him that some > > >> will attribute an error to the Master or the Guardian. =A0To me that > > >> would mean the Manifestation (God speaking to us) made an error in > > >> conferring infallibility upon the Master,etc. > > > >> We are fallible and we then judge the Central Figures and that does > > >> not seem to me to be reasonable nor spiritual. > > > >> Also Kent, where in the Writings, either in the source language or i n > > >> any other language is the Manifestation referred to as "She"? =A0 I > =A0 > > >> know > > > >> that God is genderless but yet if the Manifestation said "He" then =A0 > > >> who > > > >> are we to change it? > > > >> regards, > > >> doug > > > >> On Oct 5, 2008, at 9:18 PM, Number Eleven - GPEMC! wrote: > > > >>> "compx2" wrote in message > > >>>news:LZOdnf3eiuGJ8EDVnZ2dnUVZ_oPinZ2d@giganews.com... > > >>>> Hi again, Tim. > > > >>>> I am having great difficulty posting here, having tried to post =A0 > > >>>> this > > >>>> one several times as well as others. > > > >>>> The issue of infallibility has been discussed around here several > > >>>> times in my years reading this forum. =A0I suggest that if you wan t > =A0 > > >>>> to > > >>>> seriously discuss the issue further we should start a new thread. > > > >>>> But as a Baha'i I have an obligation to understand the usage of th e > > >>>> word in relation to the institutions of the Faith and the Central > > >>>> Figures. =A0I have reconciled it myself with an understanding of t he > > >>>> purpose of God's revelation, that God works in broad strokes. =A0I n > =A0 > > >>>> He > > > r > > >>>> revelation She has provided a matrix of understanding, the > > >>>> elimination > > >>>> of prejudice, spiritual solution to economic problems, progressive > > >>>> revelation from God, independent investigation... =A0All of Her > > >>>> revelation cannot be empirically verified, but the promise that > > >>>> should > > >>>> we adopt these principles and follow Her proscriptions we will =A0 > > >>>> become > > >>>> better people and attract Her confirmations. > > >>>> I believe this is a major covenant between God and humanity, a =A0 > > >>>> major > > >>>> connection that can only benefit humanity, and each of us =A0 > > >>>> personally. > > > >>>> That is infallible. > > > >>>>> --Kent > > >>> [SNIP] > > > >>> I think that's beautiful Kent. Although my experience leads me to > > >>> somewhat > > >>> different beliefs, I have always agreed with the major principles o f > > > >>> the > > >>> Baha'i Faith - such as those you have mentioned. > > > >>> However, I am particularly cautious of arbitrary proscription > > >>> because every > > >>> human being already knows how to correctly derive a just > > >>> proscription. We > > >>> can all put ourselves in the shoes of others an empathise with them , > > > >>> and we > > >>> all know how to find out which expectations are universal and which > > >>> are the > > >>> product of culture or temperament. I think that the key here is goo d > > > >>> will, > > >>> consultation, and due diligence. Very simple compared to a code of > > >>> laws - > > >>> even if it is intended only for consumption as "a choice wine". > > > >>> We also have a rich enough culture to know how to prevent schism - > > >>> As far as > > >>> I can tell, the Royal Society was the first to achieve this by > > >>> abolishing > > >>> the role of doctrinal authority and rejecting concepts such as > > >>> infallibility. > > > >>> ____________________________________________________________ > > >>> Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the num...@timothycasey.info to =A0 > > >>> email. > > >>> Philosophical Essays:http://timothycasey.info > > >>> Speed Reading:http://speed-reading-comprehension.com > > >>> Software:http://fieldcraft.biz;ScientificIQTest, Web Menus, > > >>> Security. > > >>> Science & Geology:http://geologist-1011.com;http:// > > >>> geologist-1011.net > > >>> Technical & Web Design:http://web-design-1011.com > > >>> -- > > >>> GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. Seewww.fieldcraft.biz/GPEM C > > >>> The General Public Electronic > > ... > > read more =BB From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 8 23:40:55 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 513EA4B0B7A for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 23:40:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3qPZ1nY-UMc5 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 23:40:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 29F434B0B81; Wed, 8 Oct 2008 23:40:09 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 22:40:51 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 23:37:23 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: ajv Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 20:37:07 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com; posting-host=67.61.22.76; posting-account=5hiaogoAAACPzYWz4wIuUrvX7FKDFdQ1 User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.0.3) Gecko/2008092417 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KnmKy-0000jf-Dq X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-83smbilOzaQ0mllisSFK7JniIo5fPDxtQZJox97yeZxafrn/ApyQhzG9XGTnZhiFkq28qWyHby3yaTh!tbWP4LA4y23u7WaI+nTwkvpuqL15kBPw1TvlaYykWuiqRqRj+qaXdUbl7u7VxazrfKKHvrnVcQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25433 Like you Douglas I seek understanding from the Word. "O thou who hast set thy face towards the Realm on High and hast quaffed My sealed wine from the hand of bounteousness! Know thou that the term 'Infallibility' hath numerous meanings and divers stations. In one sense it is applicable to the One Whom God hath made immune from error. Similarly it is applied to every soul whom God hath guarded against sin, transgression, rebellion, impiety, disbelief and the like. However, the Most Great Infallibility is confined to the One Whose station is immeasurably exalted beyond ordinances or prohibitions and is sanctified from errors and omissions. Indeed He is a Light which is not followed by darkness and a Truth not overtaken by error. Were He to pronounce water to be wine or heaven to be earth or light to be fire, He speaketh the truth and no doubt would there be about it; and unto no one is given the right to question His authority or to say why or wherefore. Whosoever raiseth objections will be numbered with the froward in the Book of God, the Lord of the worlds. 'Verily He shall not be asked of His doings but all others shall be asked of their doings.' [1] He is come from the invisible heaven, bearing the banner 'He doeth whatsoever He willeth' and is accompanied by hosts of power and authority while it is the duty of all besides Him to strictly observe whatever laws and ordinances have been enjoined upon them, and should anyone deviate therefrom, even to the extent of a hair's breadth, his work would be brought to naught." [1 cf. Qur'=E1n 21:23.] (Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 108) I especially like this part of the above quoted text, "...Were He to pronounce water to be wine or heaven to be earth or light to be fire, He speaketh the truth and no doubt would there be about it; and unto no one is given the right to question His authority or to say why or wherefore...." (Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 108) It's lucid and does not require explanation in MHO. Regards, Albert On Oct 7, 10:20=A0pm, Douglas McAdam wrote: > I have read the message Kent, the use of the terms "she" or "he" did =A0 > not distract me. =A0I was addressing why you used these terms. > The rest of the message I am unclear about. =A0What does the term =A0 > infallible mean to you when referenced to the Master, Guardian and =A0 > House of Justice. > Also you say we cannot verify all of His Revelation and then you give =A0 > an example of how the Revelation will have positive effects on us if =A0 > we follow it. =A0That seems to me to be effects that we can verify. =A0 > Also it could be that in our current methodologies we are unable to =A0 > prove many aspects of the Revelation =A0but that does not mean we won't =A0 > be able to in the future. =A0In fact the House issued a statement saying =A0 > our current methodologies are not capable of understanding the =A0 > Writings (not sure of the exact wording but something to that =A0 > effect). =A0It seems they want us to develop a new methodology. > > I'm not sure how this thread got started or why. > > regards, > doug > On Oct 7, 2008, at 8:30 PM, compx2 wrote: > > > Hi Doug, > > > I am reminded of the Taliban and Wahhabi style Islam. =A0You say "if > > the Manifestation uses the term "He" then shouldn't we also?" > > > Should we call women "handmaiden"? =A0Is the sun really better called > > the "dayspring"? =A0Should we all live as Baha'u'llah lived and eschew > > all modern conveniences? > > >> I think you should accept what is derived from the harmony of > >> reason and faith or science and religion. > > > I think you should accept that I will accept what I accept, just as I > > accept that you accept what you accept. =A0I don't see your points as > > reasonable, but I understand what you are saying. =A0On the other hand > > you do not understand what I am saying. > > >> Are you saying the Beloved Master, Guardian and House of Justice are > >> not infallible? =A0I do not understand why you are even disputing this .. > > > I think disputing is the wrong word. =A0But it is clear that you have > > not read the message, perhaps distracted by the female pronouns. > > Since you keep bringing it up, I will give you another opportunity to > > read it. =A0After you have read it, then please ask me about it if you > > want. =A0I have removed the female references so as to distract you les s > > from the point. > > >> But as a Baha'i I have an obligation to understand the usage of the =A0 > >> word > > (infallible) in relation to the institutions of the Faith and the =A0 > > Central F > > igures. =A0I have reconciled it myself with an understanding of the =A0 > > purpose > > of God's revelation, that God works in broad strokes. =A0In His =A0 > > revelation He > > has provided a matrix of understanding, the elimination of =A0 > > prejudice, spir > > itual solution to economic problems, progressive revelation from =A0 > > God, indep > > endent investigation... =A0All of His revelation cannot be empirically =A0 > > verifi > > ed, but the promise that should we adopt these principles and follow =A0 > > His pr > > oscriptions we will become better people and attract His =A0 > > confirmations. =A0I > > believe this is a major covenant between God and humanity, a major =A0 > > connecti > > on that can only benefit humanity, and each of us personally. > > >> That is infallible. > > > On Oct 7, 12:27 pm, Douglas McAdam > > wrote: > >> On Oct 6, 2008, at 9:06 PM, compx2 wrote: > > >>> Hi Doug. > > >>> The reason I referred to God as "She" was to accomodate someone =A0 > >>> else. > >>> If you look at the message to which I was responding when I wrote it > >>> you will see that. =A0This is the second time I have told you this. > > >> And Kent, this is the second or maybe third time I have said that if > >> the Manifestation uses the term "He" then shouldn't we also? =A0Why > >> reinforce someones' use of a term that is not being used by the > >> Manifestation? > > >>>> My understanding from the Writings and from what I have read from > >>>> those scholars who have fluency in the original source =A0 > >>>> languages ... > > >>> The understanding I have is from my own independent investigation of > >>> truth. =A0Whose truth do you think I will accept, my own =A0 > >>> investigation, > >>> or the truth you report from others that you respect? > > >> And my understanding is from my own independent investigation which > >> includes science and what scholar fluent in the original languages > >> say. =A0I think you should accept what is derived from the harmony of > >> reason and faith or science and religion. > > >>> I would not respect myself, Doug, if I accepted your reported =A0 > >>> experts > >>> without investigating. =A0So, for me, I would like to see what issues > >>> and points they make, not their conclusions. =A0I can make my own > >>> conclusions if you can give me the verifiable facts. > > >> Who is asking you to accept what experts say Kent? =A0Not me, for sure .. > >> In the matter of use of the term "She" I gave you the facts. =A0The > >> Manifestation did not use the term "She" in reference to God and so I > >> go by Him and not by experts. > > >>> So I find your reasoning that, since Baha'u'llah was infallible =A0 > >>> anyone > >>> He says is infallible is therefore infallible, less than convincing. > >>> I would go into again, but I don't think you read what I write. =A0If > >>> you are interested, I recently wrote something to Tim that he found > >>> "beautiful" that explained a little of my view of infallibility. =A0I f > >>> you would like to discuss it with me further, please let's start > >>> there. =A0I know your view, you do not know mine. > > >> Are you saying the Beloved Master, Guardian and House of Justice are > >> not infallible? =A0I do not understand why you are even disputing this .. > > >> doug > > >>> --Kent > > >>> On Oct 6, 12:13 pm, Douglas McAdam > >>> wrote: > >>>> Hi Tim and Kent- > >>>> I am wondering about something. > >>>> My understanding from the Writings and from what I have read from > >>>> those scholars who have fluency in the original source languages =A0 > >>>> say > >>>> that the Manifestation has essential infallibility and He has > >>>> conferred infallibility upon the Master who in turn conferred > >>>> infallibility upon the Guardian and House of Justice. =A0 The Belove d > >>>> Master gave us some knowledge about all this in several places. =A0H e > >>>> explained essential infallibility and how certain holy souls are > >>>> capable of acquiring this condition of conferred infallibility and > >>>> are > > >>>> not subject to error. =A0The argument you mention that has happened =A0 > >>>> on > > >>>> discussions appeared to be about how the Master, Guardian and House > > >>>> of > > >>>> Justice are not inerrant but that the original word for =A0 > >>>> infallibility > >>>> actually meant "protection" or "sinlessness" I think. > > >>>> What I would like to know is what is the original word for > >>>> "essential" > > >>>> and what is the original word for "infallibility". > >>>> I'm somewhat confused by all this and also wondered about how =A0 > >>>> English > >>>> is translated back into the original sources languages. =A0For =A0 > >>>> example > > >>>> how is the word infallible in relation to the Master, Guardian and > >>>> House of Justice translated back into Arabic or Persian? > > >>>> It strikes me strange that we can attribute total essential > >>>> infallibility to the Manifestation who is without error and then =A0 > >>>> when > >>>> He appoints the Master and confers infallibility upon him that some > >>>> will attribute an error to the Master or the Guardian. =A0To me that > >>>> would mean the Manifestation (God speaking to us) made an error in > >>>> conferring infallibility upon the Master,etc. > > >>>> We are fallible and we then judge the Central Figures and that does > >>>> not seem to me to be reasonable nor spiritual. > > >>>> Also Kent, where in the Writings, either in the source language =A0 > >>>> or in > >>>> any other language is the Manifestation referred to as "She"? =A0 I > > >>>> know > > >>>> that God is genderless but yet if the Manifestation said "He" then > >>>> who > > >>>> are we to change it? > > >>>> regards, > >>>> doug > > >>>> On Oct 5, 2008, at 9:18 PM, Number Eleven - GPEMC! wrote: > > >>>>> "compx2" wrote in message > >>>>>news:LZOdnf3eiuGJ8EDVnZ2dnUVZ_oPinZ2d@giganews.com... > >>>>>> Hi again, Tim. > > >>>>>> I am having great difficulty posting here, having tried to post > >>>>>> this > >>>>>> one several times as well as others. > > >>>>>> The issue of infallibility has been discussed around here several > >>>>>> times in my years reading this forum. =A0I suggest that if you wan t > > >>>>>> to > >>>>>> seriously discuss the issue further we should start a new thread. > > >>>>>> But as a Baha'i I have an obligation to understand the usage of =A0 > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> word in relation to the institutions of the Faith and the Central > >>>>>> Figures. =A0I have reconciled it myself with an understanding of =A0 > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> purpose of God's revelation, that God works in broad strokes. =A0I n > > >>>>>> He > >>> r > >>>>>> revelation She has provided a matrix of understanding, the > >>>>>> elimination > >>>>>> of prejudice, spiritual solution to economic problems, =A0 > >>>>>> progressive > >>>>>> revelation from God, independent investigation... =A0All of Her > >>>>>> revelation cannot be empirically verified, but the promise that > >>>>>> should > >>>>>> we adopt these principles and follow Her proscriptions we will > >>>>>> become > >>>>>> better people and attract Her confirmations. > >>>>>> I believe this is a major covenant between God and humanity, a > >>>>>> major > >>>>>> connection that can only benefit humanity, and each of us > >>>>>> personally. > > >>>>>> That is infallible. > > >>>>>>> --Kent > >>>>> [SNIP] > > >>>>> I think that's beautiful Kent. Although my experience leads me to > >>>>> somewhat > >>>>> different beliefs, I have always agreed with the major =A0 > >>>>> principles of > > >>>>> the > >>>>> Baha'i Faith - such as those you have mentioned. > > >>>>> However, I am particularly cautious of arbitrary proscription > >>>>> because every > >>>>> human being already knows how to correctly derive a just > >>>>> proscription. We > >>>>> can all put ourselves in the shoes of others an empathise with =A0 > > ... > > read more =BB From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Thu Oct 9 01:04:29 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 097854B08DA for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 01:04:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NX7eP-jt+MPO for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 01:04:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 8C8354B0AC7; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 01:04:28 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 00:04:28 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 00:08:23 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: ajv Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: thousand years as one day, but why Christianity and Islam are only 621 yeas apart? Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 21:08:14 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: v39g2000pro.googlegroups.com; posting-host=67.61.22.76; posting-account=5hiaogoAAACPzYWz4wIuUrvX7FKDFdQ1 User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.0.3) Gecko/2008092417 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Knmoz-0002mE-Sp X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-5WvzbrYKpOh0t1TbSfuPtFzTP3A9rBkw84h0g11cfzD7SNM6uEfKoyvoj3Jv6plPiwvW3+oGn7Semet!DQz4DCx2ztYIXmpcmPTN3ekXFQdTZLn1qopbhwoAXmGmBQDB0lFamrKeju97DMRtIGVT06AWng== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25434 On Oct 7, 1:34=A0pm, "celestial.tree.of.l...@gmail.com" wrote: > Recently a question was brought up and I don't know the answer for it: > =A0 it has been revealed in Quran : 32:5: that the cause of god is > returned in a day. a day that is thousand years. But the duration of > Christianity is only 621 years? > Thanks in advance for your time. > Omid Omid, 'Abdu'l-Baha speaks to your question. Here is a quote from the middle of his explanation. "It is possible, however, that after the completion of a full thousand years, certain Holy Beings will be empowered to deliver a Revelation: this, however, will not be through a Universal Manifestation. Wherefore every day of the cycle of the Blessed Beauty is in reality equal to one year, and every year of it is equal to a thousand years.. . ." =A0 (Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 67- 69) Regards, Albert From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Thu Oct 9 16:40:56 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10C394B090F for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 16:40:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yNZ+uazNVB3w for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 16:40:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 63E044B0933; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 16:40:55 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 15:40:58 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 11:34:32 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: mikeran37@yahoo.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 08:33:06 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: t18g2000prt.googlegroups.com; posting-host=76.214.135.108; posting-account=M_40MwoAAACezPB6m4wCKE4LAJjMzCeb User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KnxWv-0000Ho-PI X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-0.202, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 2.30, RDNS_NONE 0.10) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-qeGMrVaPkqH38TqYrbQM4MjarL2UyNR3vDc+90Qp8RzhppfjJVr+nYEjKqdIE281dPerAA6I8zTKNNP!m3WIBKLoSZfOcA8Oei5PF9zSpUzj2vFZ3XSkgkD7WlIHTFR5r/3jXXWJJURsT0CzN0XlnoSWMw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25435 >If that were so then Baha'is would not take political positions on >things like, say, the prohibition of drugs and alcohol. But Baha'is do have a list of preset positions. They're not political because they aren't up for debate, and their enforcement comes through the assemblies. Baha'is believe in equality of men and women, equality of races, harmony of science and religion, and yes, abstinance from alcohol. Also universal education of mankind. As a Baha'i I feel it my duty to contribute to the education of mankind. The smoking cessation programs that are in effect work off of educating the general public about the truth behind all the smoke. When people are educated we can count on them to usually make the prudent choice. There is nothing non- Baha'i or political about this. Likewise with alcohol, I just want people to sober up to the reality that it is a carcinogen that may as well account for much of the death and violence in our society. But you call this propoganda, the irony being that everything I have stated is citable and has 20+ years of research behind it, and so far, apart from labelling my cited research as propoganda, you've brought nothing to the table. It didn't take our society long to ban drugs like cocaine from coke. Why? Because the ill effects were immediately obvious, the wholesale destruction of lives could not be economically ignored. Alcohol falls into this category only in a more subtle fashion, because it is not immediately obvious to people who have come to accept it as a part of culture. >a political position as is yours that society needs to educate >children on your position against alcohol and further regulate its >use. Doug's position waivers, or is inconsistent I can't tell yet. >My point is that whether or not I agree with the Baha'i political >position, it taints me. Like I have stated already, there is nothing political about espousing the established doctrine of our faith. We do have a set of doctrines that define us in our own sense. That's why we can't ally ourselves with republican, democrat..etc., we carry in our own way our own agenda's. It's entirely fair to state that a Baha'i agenda is to advocate the universal education of man, and to contribute to mankinds advancement. As part of this, it is fair for me to advocate that people are fully educated about the ills of alcohol. Do you believe in the Baha'i position of universal education of mankind? >And my only defense is to argue with you. What you believe is the >Baha'i Faith is NOT the Baha'i Faith. That's for my assembly and the Universal House of Justice to decide. Nothing I have proposed here contradicts anything that they have already themselves stated. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Thu Oct 9 16:41:13 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54B964B090F for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 16:41:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pFxO-9WDVsj4 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 16:41:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id F01344B09EA; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 16:41:12 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 15:41:28 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 12:05:23 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=IGy5W/mpqVksFWZmUBJaxWdNR96/3Ivsi3UWVwQ8NqrTB/AVWdOcNZGB6L3n66WwSVdDrBxVRYPj3GJWcpEgFALwUE/i9pyrJI2xUa/0eHyNbAfjHwufH8oozpDGmX7r+4BppzVKYbR7KvyaKaTBRmnV757uYWlnmJYWewLf/iI= ; X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: thousand years as one day, but why Christianity and Islam are only 621 yeas apart? Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 12:05:01 -0400 References: X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kny0o-0002sa-GY X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.499, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, RDNS_NONE 0.10) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-55mwvdpG0ImulUAnXCt4KUzFNtWux+Q4USmwaixDcrFROgo0wKXHSwfsz7b/JvnR4THW+Cc3FEm0LvR!MxvKBQJCET3T1QU0MPs6RnqNK/fQr6wcWcbAS1nk5KXoG3ZwNbT/EvCoU61yJSVCq3JM+tGghw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25436 Hi Albert- Can you clarify this please for I do not see how it answers the question posed. If a day is a thousand years and Christianity only lasted 621 years then does that mean Christ was not a Universal Manifestation? Likewise if Muhammad appeared before a thousand years is He also not a Universal Manifestation ? confused, doug On Oct 9, 2008, at 12:08 AM, ajv wrote: > On Oct 7, 1:34 pm, "celestial.tree.of.l...@gmail.com" > wrote: >> Recently a question was brought up and I don't know the answer for >> it: >> it has been revealed in Quran : 32:5: that the cause of god is >> returned in a day. a day that is thousand years. But the duration of >> Christianity is only 621 years? >> Thanks in advance for your time. >> Omid > > Omid, > > 'Abdu'l-Baha speaks to your question. Here is a quote from the middle > of his explanation. > > "It is possible, however, that after the completion of a full thousand > years, certain Holy Beings will be empowered to deliver a Revelation: > this, however, will not be through a Universal Manifestation. > Wherefore every day of the cycle of the Blessed Beauty is in reality > equal to one year, and every year of it is equal to a thousand > years.. . ." > > (Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 67- 69) > > Regards, > > Albert > > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Thu Oct 9 16:41:31 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D8EC4B0C15 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 16:41:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T5vahJDskab3 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 16:41:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id E50494B0BF7; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 16:41:30 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 15:41:53 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 12:45:16 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=Usi2+D/mcdcYgm+s/M97OqTNzK7iNoOkJKcGZRrBIg7tSO/N5iCCzZRbVaXXUUsjAQOrD5hGKAr3I8wYgUita1nXRXfUMbVAFFqu+MmxPuGmZyg83BqKN0vNXbruCJazMfOfxdmKdbD437Qa9N9w7YjVPZ2m+hCB4MV35JgSTso= ; X-YMail-OSG: s3WTSW0VM1kqa59GhMBr9mI50jovzN58DV9wggVHj4mWOZDQ3Vaw2uekgeqBARFTUed4r9xAJ4ewDClzgSDrCcXB1dB5zCj3kiz1uSM38pVIqkMi2DDRBkT4y3mbeqq7yyzcOCbjL.UOPiLcRpkjxVCJtffC6wBi4LMcFZcEqhBWFIxXh6THIWRuD2Ib X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 12:45:01 -0400 References: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KnydS-0006D0-4d X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.499, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, RDNS_NONE 0.10) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-0rjH84Zw/S7BE1u5k25z4BrpOZCKCbcmjwBPqA4cFig4AR6kFjmpfjzqF+OYAUDMQFtgorfaA2Clwos!bjhaJyKdNYop8z6hq0qSmsQdke5NpEUWAkmk28zyOW2r6HCzge90ogbz5XVDRwoB4psCVVWexQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25437 Thanks Kent but as nice as that sounds it is not what I was looking for. What I am wondering is what is your definition of the term "infallible" as it applies to the Central Figures. For example the Manifestation has "essential infallibility" and He has "conferred infallibility" upon the Beloved Master etc. We know the difference between "essential" and "conferred" but what does "infallible" mean when attributed to these Holy Figures? Also while I agree that not all of His Revelation can be empirically verified simply due to our human limitations and that Truth is Relative and not Absolute, I also think that in time we will be able to verify more than we do today simply because we ourselves have improved spiritually and thus our perceptions and reasoning capability will be improved. regards, doug On Oct 8, 2008, at 7:33 PM, compx2 wrote: > Hi Doug, > >> What does the term >> infallible mean to you when referenced to the Master, Guardian and >> House of Justice. > > Me: Infallibility "is a major covenant between God and humanity, a > major connection that can only benefit humanity, and each of us > personally." > > If we accept the infallibility of the Central Figures and the > Institutions of the Baha'i Faith we are accepting a covenant. We > believe their guidance is infallible. So far I think you and I might > agree, Doug. > > But the guidance offered under that covenant, Doug, is that (me again) > "He has provided a matrix of understanding; the elimination of > prejudice; spiritual solution to economic problems; progressive > revelation from God; independent investigation... All of His > Revelation cannot be empirically verified, but [we have in that > Revelation] the [infallible] promise that should we adopt these > principles and follow His proscriptions we will become better people > and attract His confirmations." > > I hope that helps you understand my statements a little better. I > will try to get to your other message tonight, but not promises. > > --Kent > > On Oct 7, 11:20 pm, Douglas McAdam > wrote: >> I have read the message Kent, the use of the terms "she" or "he" did >> not distract me. I was addressing why you used these terms. >> The rest of the message I am unclear about. What does the term >> infallible mean to you when referenced to the Master, Guardian and >> House of Justice. >> Also you say we cannot verify all of His Revelation and then you give >> an example of how the Revelation will have positive effects on us if >> we follow it. That seems to me to be effects that we can verify. >> Also it could be that in our current methodologies we are unable to >> prove many aspects of the Revelation but that does not mean we won't > >> be able to in the future. In fact the House issued a statement >> saying > >> our current methodologies are not capable of understanding the >> Writings (not sure of the exact wording but something to that >> effect). It seems they want us to develop a new methodology. >> >> I'm not sure how this thread got started or why. >> >> regards, >> doug >> On Oct 7, 2008, at 8:30 PM, compx2 wrote: >> >> >> >>> Hi Doug, >> >>> I am reminded of the Taliban and Wahhabi style Islam. You say "if >>> the Manifestation uses the term "He" then shouldn't we also?" >> >>> Should we call women "handmaiden"? Is the sun really better called >>> the "dayspring"? Should we all live as Baha'u'llah lived and eschew >>> all modern conveniences? >> >>>> I think you should accept what is derived from the harmony of >>>> reason and faith or science and religion. >> >>> I think you should accept that I will accept what I accept, just >>> as I >>> accept that you accept what you accept. I don't see your points as >>> reasonable, but I understand what you are saying. On the other hand >>> you do not understand what I am saying. >> >>>> Are you saying the Beloved Master, Guardian and House of Justice >>>> are >>>> not infallible? I do not understand why you are even disputing >>>> this > .. >> >>> I think disputing is the wrong word. But it is clear that you have >>> not read the message, perhaps distracted by the female pronouns. >>> Since you keep bringing it up, I will give you another opportunity >>> to >>> read it. After you have read it, then please ask me about it if you >>> want. I have removed the female references so as to distract you >>> les > s >>> from the point. >> >>>> But as a Baha'i I have an obligation to understand the usage of the > >>>> word >>> (infallible) in relation to the institutions of the Faith and the >>> Central F >>> igures. I have reconciled it myself with an understanding of the >>> purpose >>> of God's revelation, that God works in broad strokes. In His >>> revelation He >>> has provided a matrix of understanding, the elimination of >>> prejudice, spir >>> itual solution to economic problems, progressive revelation from >>> God, indep >>> endent investigation... All of His revelation cannot be empirically > >>> verifi >>> ed, but the promise that should we adopt these principles and follow > >>> His pr >>> oscriptions we will become better people and attract His >>> confirmations. I >>> believe this is a major covenant between God and humanity, a major >>> connecti >>> on that can only benefit humanity, and each of us personally. >> >>>> That is infallible. > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Thu Oct 9 16:41:46 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67B434B0933 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 16:41:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LOIbCCkogH8g for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 16:41:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 1A6DE4B0BDA; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 16:41:45 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 15:42:13 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 14:21:40 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=TrRJSxyDVXcWbDs6SlRUs2hnGdm2v9dYGjZStMn0YUFGlwiem4cmRCYSP8cfZrOzW6RJaB9a1uLcAsM2P+kmddsRZQAOu2nJrz4X1H+Eq6z/LKoTLzzc5xpr8S1d9nhMJdquBlHo9ybUNyuOcmckoFqG4mTCsGoyiHEtaOQgrK0= ; X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 14:21:25 -0400 References: <5e6 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Ko08k-0006VQ-PH X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.499, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, RDNS_NONE 0.10) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-Eixvf6KEwnmcU+Hrd3SLOjVaa6Zlgcqb8qTZcfze2NvQx7XJnp7VbBoWW2AYdjPQf807Pd7J7r+nPNw!YFWLE0Yg1cLSB8rdKP1+mr6Oz5fJ4ds/ymDp2d+5oALMhjJD1HC7yYMcuIcyOsdC3drzkprrRg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25438 Dear Kent- Please seem my inserted comments. On Oct 8, 2008, at 9:49 PM, compx2 wrote: > Hi again, Mike. > >> What you call brainwashing, I call exposing the facts that be about a >> substance. > > One man's truth is another man's propaganda. But I don't care if a > single drop of alcohol kills thousands of instant cancer just by > proximity, it is not illegal, and it is not a Baha'i teaching that > alcohol should be illegal. I hope you meant this as a metaphor because I'm sure you would care if a single drop killed thousand of instant cancer... or was that a typo? Also if the Baha'i Writings say it is prohibited doesn't that make it illegal in the Baha'i Faith? > > Leave my religion out of it. I am a Baha'i and I don't want your > intolerance to paint me the same color as you. Well Kent, I don't see Mike being intolerant because his view is different than yours. We are Baha'is, diverse, all living souls in seed form. > > >> And for the last time. No, we're not advocating prohibition, just >> knowledge. > > You and I are the only ones in this discussion who are not advocating > a new Prohibition. Feels funny being in the same group with you. How > does it feel to you here, beside me, preaching tolerance to Baha'is? Why do you think it necessary to preach to your fellow Baha'is? I thought we are supposed to consult? Or is your understanding of that principle also different than the mainstream Baha'is? doug > > > --Kent > > > > On Oct 8, 5:08 pm, mikera...@yahoo.com wrote: >>> I see no reason not to brainwash and employ counter educational >>> methods like the ones used against smoking and for environmental >>> control. I am in favor of error on the side of caution. But those >> >> What you call brainwashing, I call exposing the facts that be about a >> substance. It took close to thirty years before the tobacco industry >> was brought legally to account for deliberately targeting kids with >> the intent on addiction and hiding the truth about cancer. The >> alcohol >> industry is not any different. I bet if a warning were posted on >> every >> alcohol bottle labelling it as a carcinogen that alot of people would >> think twice before drinking, instead (just like in the 50's) we have >> shady medical reports about the good effects of alcohol on the heart, >> but no mention of it's carcinogenic effects? Ironically, there's a >> heaping mountain of evidence for its carcinogenic qualities, but >> scant >> epidemiologic data supporting the heart issue. Why is this so, and >> why >> are you afraid of the truth and letting people know the truth. >> >> And for the last time. No, we're not advocating prohibition, just >> knowledge. > > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Thu Oct 9 16:42:27 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D21FB4B091C for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 16:42:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PObZ8usgfwLY for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 16:42:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 774C64B0A49; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 16:42:27 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 15:42:30 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 16:41:16 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: "celestial.tree.of.love@gmail.com" Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: thousand years as one day, but why Christianity and Islam are only 621 yeas apart? Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 13:40:56 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: i20g2000prf.googlegroups.com; posting-host=70.6.138.152; posting-account=h0z4eQoAAAAcvd6lLKDp8HRTVlQEzWYk User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.0.3) Gecko/2008092417 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Ko2Jo-0001Q9-0v X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.499, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, RDNS_NONE 0.10) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-b7ZU6uE7RKYyG51g75Ng+YM/BnaXuEpwTApMzhbMBnn5rh3b/MkjOhlaX5p362keaa6Jehew4KhUfTU!mN72KvzHsNl9OgxRSNka3SZF2++RRXzSkDtYz4HMfsRsBvBfpov+mMZ7bgaIzY442KJzdnl6uA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25439 Thanks Albert, I am a little bit confused now. So you mean Mohammad was not a Universal Manifestation? and if it is the so why it took about 1.8 days to Bab to be manifested? Thanks again From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Thu Oct 9 17:30:51 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D22374B0ADE for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 17:30:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3kfWc20zOknV for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 17:30:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 841064B0B4A; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 17:30:50 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 16:30:47 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 17:13:26 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.4.0.080122 Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 10:12:52 -1100 Subject: Re: thousand years as one day, but why Christianity and Islam are only 621 yeas apart? From: Bill Hyman Thread-Topic: thousand years as one day, but why Christianity and Islam are only 621 yeas apart? Thread-Index: AckqU8o2CNPd+JZHEd2KrAAwZXfiJg== In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at blueskynet.as X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Ko2oy-0003yv-U2 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.499, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, RDNS_NONE 0.10) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-Lzf3TKYPE2JM8V14PuTGJDdDq6tomm5qnI6umdQe09VoG8hc7DNzTUP1SwDedDZgeWmyFHCpTtsCfPd!E3O1N2FuIuKEv/WmZLNxnRAl7RYDHIv4ioBUpJhnh1ruYjsseUqyMlEBz0ZpA7AZpUR2NMJW9Q== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25440 Hi Albert: It is my opinion that the quote you offered from selected writings of Abdu'l-Baha refers only to revelators after Baha'u'llah. Bill > >> On Oct 7, 1:34 pm, "celestial.tree.of.l...@gmail.com" >> wrote: >>> Recently a question was brought up and I don't know the answer for >>> it: >>> it has been revealed in Quran : 32:5: that the cause of god is >>> returned in a day. a day that is thousand years. But the duration of >>> Christianity is only 621 years? >>> Thanks in advance for your time. >>> Omid >> >> Omid, >> >> 'Abdu'l-Baha speaks to your question. Here is a quote from the middle >> of his explanation. >> >> "It is possible, however, that after the completion of a full thousand >> years, certain Holy Beings will be empowered to deliver a Revelation: >> this, however, will not be through a Universal Manifestation. >> Wherefore every day of the cycle of the Blessed Beauty is in reality >> equal to one year, and every year of it is equal to a thousand >> years.. . ." >> >> (Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 67- 69) >> >> Regards, >> >> Albert >> >> > > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Thu Oct 9 20:38:29 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9DBF4B0646 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 20:38:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZEufst7+B8x6 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 20:38:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fiay.ttnet.net.tr (unknown [85.105.202.3]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D0AFD4B061F for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 20:38:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 00:38:02 +0000 From: "Kagel Kassem" X-Mailer: The Bat! (3.5.28) Professional Reply-To: Kagel Kassem X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <5054432393.20081010003509@cantref.com> To: Subject: English words, we got a million of 'em MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------FC52A67BDB41F9" ------------FC52A67BDB41F9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Neew life!! =20 =20 At the length and difficulty of her journey, she to strike a deadwall in the masculine mind. I so here the shadows seek their favourite shadows, i asked joe mitchell, when he was listening to glass. It was a very narrow escape from death,. ------------FC52A67BDB41F9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =09 =20
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------------FC52A67BDB41F9-- From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Thu Oct 9 22:16:21 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C07184B075D for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 22:16:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5AfEyDUHLNdu for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 22:16:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id E556D4B07B3; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 22:16:20 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 21:16:22 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 21:39:41 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 18:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: u28g2000hsc.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Ko6yf-0005rb-0f X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.499, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, RDNS_NONE 0.10) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-EOuNlnbnE6Avrr5HLFdba0CHglch2yX75MYvHNtGBvCnepm0GDwiZ5Yj2kXp2+t2pJBMf78NRTFdxIV!YLpCx0h69ygabgxhBpicDaUl0v/40QEZTqbLJxXDjltHlv2ax1ukOBv+90t538Spe68XXMmH1w== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25441 Hi Mike. > their enforcement comes through > the assemblies. Are we going to take away the voting rights of non-Baha'is? > As a Baha'i I feel it my > duty to contribute to the education of mankind. Really? Me too. > ...you've brought > nothing to the table. How about if I quote your study in context: ----------------------- The researchers behind the study are Boffetta and Mia Hashibe who found the risk of cancer increases proportionately with the consumption of alcohol. According to other studies it has been found that moderate drinking is linked with lower risk of cardiovascular disease therefore instead of quitting researchers say that people should drink responsibly. --------------------- I was wondering why there is no preponderance of cancer in nations that have legalized drinking. >...20+ years of research behind it Kind of true. It was a study that took people who had head and neck cancer and worked backwards to divine the relationship of the cancer to alcohol and cigarette use. So yes, some of the people had been tracked for 20 years, but the study was not designed and carried out over 20 years. Mostly, the study says, the cancer was attributable to smoking. But to the extent it was attributed to alcohol: "alcohol consumption was associated with an increased risk of head and neck cancer only when alcohol was consumed at high frequency" at least three drinks a day. So from my independent investigation, I find your education to be propaganda. Your education work is vastly inferior to mine. I face the facts as they are, not as you think they should be. > Do you believe in > the Baha'i position of universal education of mankind? Maybe, since I am talking to you, we should talk about what is education and what is biased propaganda. So I believe in education, not biased propaganda. That is like math and science and grammar and arts but not new studies that suggest God is punishing non-Baha'is. > That's for my assembly and the Universal House of Justice to > decide. Best beloved is justice. Someone might be fair, but it evidently will not be you. --Kent On Oct 9, 11:33=A0am, mikera...@yahoo.com wrote: > >If that were so then Baha'is would not take political positions on > >things like, say, the prohibition of drugs and alcohol. > > But Baha'is do have a list of preset positions. They're not political > because they aren't up for debate, and their enforcement comes through > the assemblies. Baha'is believe in equality of men and women, equality > of races, harmony of science and religion, and yes, abstinance from > alcohol. Also universal education of mankind. As a Baha'i I feel it my > duty to contribute to the education of mankind. The smoking cessation > programs that are in effect work off of educating the general public > about the truth behind all the smoke. When people are educated we can > count on them to usually make the prudent choice. There is nothing non- > Baha'i or political about this. Likewise with alcohol, I just want > people to sober up to the reality that it is a carcinogen that may as > well account for much of the death and violence in our society. =A0But > you call this propoganda, the irony being that everything I have > stated is citable and has 20+ years of research behind it, and so far, > apart from labelling my cited research as propoganda, you've brought > nothing to the table. > > It didn't take our society long to ban drugs like cocaine from coke. > Why? Because the ill effects were immediately obvious, the wholesale > destruction of lives could not be economically ignored. Alcohol falls > into this category only in a more subtle fashion, because it is not > immediately obvious to people who have come to accept it as a part of > culture. > > >a political position as is yours that society needs to educate > >children on your position against alcohol and further regulate its > >use. =A0Doug's position waivers, or is inconsistent I can't tell yet. > >My point is that whether or not I agree with the Baha'i =A0political > >position, it taints me. > > Like I have stated already, there is nothing political about espousing > the established doctrine of our faith. We do have a set of doctrines > that define us in our own sense. That's why we can't ally ourselves > with republican, democrat..etc., we carry in our own way our own > agenda's. It's entirely fair to state that a Baha'i agenda is to > advocate the universal education of man, and to contribute to mankinds > advancement. As part of this, it is fair for me to advocate that > people are fully educated about the ills of alcohol. Do you believe in > the Baha'i position of universal education of mankind? > > >And my only defense is to argue with you. =A0What you believe is the > >Baha'i Faith is NOT the Baha'i Faith. > > =A0That's for my assembly and the Universal House of Justice to decide. > Nothing I have proposed here contradicts anything that they have > already themselves stated. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Thu Oct 9 22:38:41 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB9F84B0121 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 22:38:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z6uNwqdVJgJQ for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 22:38:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 31E944B0584; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 22:38:40 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 21:38:49 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 22:20:22 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 19:18:32 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <7uadnXpC9NqFdHHVnZ2dnUVZ_oPinZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: p59g2000hsd.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Ko7c3-0000ZM-0j X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.499, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, RDNS_NONE 0.10) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-nR4eY4sNqJ5Ya4VBfXekopTMnQCmLJHyu9d5m/aXbBEGW/27S4hMX2DSs1nXig4mtd1KqeojzIBnzoe!0keI+RyDHgWgn3n0SZ3/zAgOocILfp2gaawHZcO1kbgN/dmOHDHHDziU9jJnsFcDlaCH9OPOKA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25442 Hi Doug, > ...all bear consequences > if disobeyed I say all of them will give us confirmations if we obey. I don't think there is punishment for disobeying unless we intentionally harm others. I say there is reward, but no punishment, except in extreme cases. > any objective > and scientific research will prove it is better to keep than break > these laws. False. But it is better to keep than to break the laws. No research will prove it, but it is true. > I accept Baha'u'llah and believe and strive > to obey His laws and teach others as best I can to do likewise. Not from what I have seen here. You argue that people must become Baha'is, not just follow the laws. You aren't satisfied that they might be saints but have wine with dinner, you want to outlaw the wine. And even then they will have to sign a card before you will even realize the good they do for humanity. > Sounds to me like you are saying that all the studies against the use > of alcohol and drugs are biased. No, just some of them are biased. Drugs and alcohol are bad, it is just not a Baha'i issue that they should be illegal, but rather a political issue. --Kent On Oct 8, 12:15=A0pm, Douglas McAdam wrote: > Kent- > The Ten Commandments are Laws from God. > Some have become civil laws and some are not but all bear consequences =A0 > if disobeyed and that is easily proven by an unbiased observation of =A0 > society. > God has spoken to us again and Baha'u'llah has prohibited the drinking =A0 > of alcohol and use of drugs and His laws are for all mankind and the =A0 > consequences of disobedience are easily observable. > These disobediences are having a negative effect on all of us Kent, =A0 > even you, and in many ways not so easily observable but any objective =A0 > and scientific research will prove it is better to keep than break =A0 > these laws. > The Baha'i Faith is the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth. =A0 > The final realization of what was prophesied for thousands of years, a =A0 > "day not followed by night" and we will see in the future a Baha'i =A0 > Commonwealth. =A0You have no doubt read about it in detail in the =A0 > Writings in general and specifically in the Guardian's writings. =A0All =A0 > God's laws will become binding on all peoples. =A0 However the =A0 > application of these laws and the entire process is quite different =A0 > than what has been going on in our society for centuries now. =A0The =A0 > Houses of Justice will be administering justice in a much purer form =A0 > than what our civil govt. has been doing. > I do not tolerate disease, poor food, alcohol, drugs, racism and all =A0 > forms of prejudice or anything that interferes with the soul =A0becoming =A0 > more developed but that does not mean I go around judging people. =A0On =A0 > the contrary I spend most of my time doing service work to help end =A0 > these problems and lead souls to the Faith. =A0If others wish to drink =A0 > alcohol =A0that is their business but if they ask my opinion I will give =A0 > them the truth about how I feel and what the Writings say. =A0But I do =A0 > it in a loving way as best I can. > Sounds to me like you are saying that all the studies against the use =A0 > of alcohol and drugs are biased. =A0Whether they are or not is beside =A0 > the point for me because I accept Baha'u'llah and believe and strive =A0 > to obey His laws and teach others as best I can to do likewise. > > regards, > doug From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Thu Oct 9 22:38:50 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00BB04B0121 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 22:38:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y+aPwSAQpTn6 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 22:38:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 819DD4B0584; Thu, 9 Oct 2008 22:38:49 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 21:39:07 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 22:23:47 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=feppA7LbeESmbQnuF9l/D8bAQ7KJYl7Mhx+uhb6Y67Tw22b49z09wr9BKIaaL2Z0XTyKHz26jA+5cIG5mtSZf8XUYpHJsYCrxITfdpf3j76hD95i3GeasIkLbSwGGzXWG5alT4xbxLJEBbDvz6F2Gpi+eadtllpvyOvSOZoMwwY= ; X-YMail-OSG: J2fofjgVM1nvlu8MmmFL7m6OZ9oFQ_2_wO8Vc77rCUlvGVejLJ4Xg3gDwmZepmIj3EAZalT6kzjwnWrRTqZTBpuD_7SEryjPK_6.YEJgGaYCfFjqwPYdcjLY10T_LzEcIAA- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 22:23:37 -0400 References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Ko7fK-0000mJ-DO X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: <3--dndHrlonWXXPVnZ2dnUVZ_uSdnZ2d@giganews.com> X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-7j2mwrhqF4lxghvFLyZ3jJAI4QT5Y7KDUZT0S0mxDD5HTRYtfgkmLwQx5GRZJD0hTgNE6G2G1BT+Q03!MZoHEf2IbhKTjkiJFlGyCcqpfQrCUu9Wnw+0KIlQHr6snLi/uMLAfzZvpkPF1li0Z8cNMAmiCg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25443 Not sure but I believe Kent wrote the following - >> a political position as is yours that society needs to educate >> children on your position against alcohol and further regulate its >> use. Doug's position waivers, or is inconsistent I can't tell yet. >> My point is that whether or not I agree with the Baha'i political >> position, it taints me. > >> And my only defense is to argue with you. What you believe is the >> Baha'i Faith is NOT the Baha'i Faith. Please show me where my position wavers. I thought I was quite clear. regards, doug From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Fri Oct 10 18:07:22 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 956244B05EB for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 18:07:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gj3uRUpSoytg for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 18:07:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id E46DC4B0700; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 18:07:21 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 17:07:42 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:54:57 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 04:51:17 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <3--dndHrlonWXXPVnZ2dnUVZ_uSdnZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.2.209; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KoGa6-0000gV-4f X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.499, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, RDNS_NONE 0.10) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-457Z6iS012787LnJTCI2hy7FaDwn8Bu8Mbb6eFO6xoBchsNhAO7hDcITX0e4s/QQgrEZE+z9SxAbaAb!UVgyn1RPXwJITxZAEn8BKG/nU+HeK+z4Gp4Gizmgg6ilfi1ZSrYykBkFqMmV7bzF+JyUU0U9Dg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25444 Hi Doug, Both Mike and I were confused about your intolerance toward the drinking of alcohol by non-Baha'is. But you have cleared it up with your recent advocation of intolerance toward those who fail to follow all of God's Law. I am curious how future Baha'is will enforce daily prayer for non- Baha'is, however. Perhaps you can clear that up for me. --Kent On Oct 9, 10:23=A0pm, Douglas McAdam wrote: > Not sure but I believe Kent wrote the following - > > >> a political position as is yours that society needs to educate > >> children on your position against alcohol and further regulate its > >> use. =A0Doug's position waivers, or is inconsistent I can't tell yet. > >> My point is that whether or not I agree with the Baha'i =A0political > >> position, it taints me. > > >> And my only defense is to argue with you. =A0What you believe is the > >> Baha'i Faith is NOT the Baha'i Faith. > > Please show me where my position wavers. =A0I thought I was quite clear. > > regards, > doug From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Fri Oct 10 18:08:57 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52C6C4B05CC for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 18:08:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 47KAYt22ceOe for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 18:08:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 7B85B4B05EB; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 18:08:56 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 17:09:07 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:43:31 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=IamGxrnfgAHxCiky6tgNgYMgDUAqOlQO0zt/HKtLygy39E/8vY5v6+J1JVvDZIyPCip8wPUHRHdd80I2Aq6FwD9Luc7bsGxh8QQJxorqdgdUbER2sYlVJIMLzzi2rW+APi4r6/EE2tbnLaOrMzvPW5rgxIgiwzcf3D7opBUjQUo= ; X-YMail-OSG: gp73f24VM1nyRMJlUJJpEPfSU6x70Jh2TxNtDF8Zpjzh0qnO.aZRYDuq9_6puQkmgez3jLs.fCPb9.l52Bwq6lg3nEVn9xaxgv62TLC_Ui_VMqTOlRhYWwuXoNGoIso1ALOfxx1I7FoYOD2FGKPrapwZ X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:43:17 -0400 References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <7uadnXpC9NqFdHHVnZ2dnUVZ_oPinZ2d@giganews.com> X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KoK9F-0002WG-4G X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-rlyyyOIBJTyqE44gG/QWoK5sP2EHDmKoJgkR0pko9+X4awX/mZ1DUwR2I+4YbTUnrKki8j971T3Z2ZX!rX4w7fIs7zA7ZKrEg7+weafaImaDRTOBNiwnYUR1pJXKqNHKe/urwQfc1Sxq6c6Jtta3O256pQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 X-Original-Bytes: 9218 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25445 Please see my comment inserted. On Oct 9, 2008, at 10:18 PM, compx2 wrote: > Hi Doug, > >> ...all bear consequences >> if disobeyed > > I say all of them will give us confirmations if we obey. I don't > think there is punishment for disobeying unless we intentionally harm > others. I say there is reward, but no punishment, except in extreme > cases. I used the Ten Commandments as an example of God's Laws which when broken have cause grief to mankind because inherent in all of the Laws of God is the twin pillars of reward and punishment. See God Passes By regarding the twin pillars of Justice. Show me one example of a Scriptural law of God that when broken will not produce a punishment, either self-inflicted or inflicted by society. > > >> any objective >> and scientific research will prove it is better to keep than break >> these laws. > > False. But it is better to keep than to break the laws. No research > will prove it, but it is true. Again show me an example of a broken law that has not produced bad effects on an individual and society. > > >> I accept Baha'u'llah and believe and strive >> to obey His laws and teach others as best I can to do likewise. > > Not from what I have seen here. You argue that people must become > Baha'is, not just follow the laws. You aren't satisfied that they > might be saints but have wine with dinner, you want to outlaw the > wine. And even then they will have to sign a card before you will > even realize the good they do for humanity. So now you, preaching about tolerance to Baha'is, are judging me. You are saying I do not accept Baha'u'llah and strive to obey His Laws and teach others as best I can. How can you justify this with the Baha'i Writings? Where did I ever say that what you accuse me of? I have given you quotes from the Writings in every case that I commented upon but you have produced none to back up your assertions. > > >> Sounds to me like you are saying that all the studies against the use >> of alcohol and drugs are biased. > > No, just some of them are biased. Drugs and alcohol are bad, it is > just not a Baha'i issue that they should be illegal, but rather a > political issue. Baha'u'llah made its prohibition a Baha'i matter and so that is all I need to know. By political if you mean by way of govt. then I agree it is political, but it is not partisan politics. As I have previously explained, the former Laws of God, such as the Ten Commandments, became the laws of society by way of the govt. accepting and enforcing them. Likewise the Laws of God as revealed by Baha'u'llah are destined to become the laws of the Baha'i Govt. in our upcoming New World Order, the International Laws, etc. Do you not think the whole world will be governed some day by Baha'i Admin.? If so do you have any quotes from the Writings to back up your ideas? The Beloved Guardian wrote extensively about the New World Order, the Baha'i Commonwealth and its Institutions that will govern the world. Are you saying this is not going to happen? Kent, no matter what argument you put forth it must somehow be prompted by and backed by references to science and religion. I find no such references in your argument. All I find is you making assertions that any disagreement to you, even when the Writings and science studies are produced, you say are wrong but you never produce any evidence. Bottom line to me is that Baha'u'llah has prohibited alcohol and since He also gave us the principle of the harmony of science and religion in society and faith and reason in individuals then it is only a matter of time when the govt. and society will have the needed evidence to enact this into civil law. If you don't agree then produce references from objective science and true religion such as the Baha'i Writings. Until then the matter is closed for me and since you keep making negative personal remarks about me and my opinions I am appealing to the Mods. to step in and remind you that this is supposed to be a Baha'i forum which follows the principles of consultation and certain guidelines of proper discussion. God bless, doug > > --Kent > > > > On Oct 8, 12:15 pm, Douglas McAdam > wrote: >> Kent- >> The Ten Commandments are Laws from God. >> Some have become civil laws and some are not but all bear >> consequences > >> if disobeyed and that is easily proven by an unbiased observation of >> society. >> God has spoken to us again and Baha'u'llah has prohibited the >> drinking > >> of alcohol and use of drugs and His laws are for all mankind and the >> consequences of disobedience are easily observable. >> These disobediences are having a negative effect on all of us Kent, >> even you, and in many ways not so easily observable but any objective >> and scientific research will prove it is better to keep than break >> these laws. >> The Baha'i Faith is the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth. >> The final realization of what was prophesied for thousands of >> years, a > >> "day not followed by night" and we will see in the future a Baha'i >> Commonwealth. You have no doubt read about it in detail in the >> Writings in general and specifically in the Guardian's writings. All > >> God's laws will become binding on all peoples. However the >> application of these laws and the entire process is quite different >> than what has been going on in our society for centuries now. The >> Houses of Justice will be administering justice in a much purer form >> than what our civil govt. has been doing. >> I do not tolerate disease, poor food, alcohol, drugs, racism and all >> forms of prejudice or anything that interferes with the soul >> becoming > >> more developed but that does not mean I go around judging people. On > >> the contrary I spend most of my time doing service work to help end >> these problems and lead souls to the Faith. If others wish to drink > >> alcohol that is their business but if they ask my opinion I will >> give > >> them the truth about how I feel and what the Writings say. But I do > >> it in a loving way as best I can. >> Sounds to me like you are saying that all the studies against the use >> of alcohol and drugs are biased. Whether they are or not is beside >> the point for me because I accept Baha'u'llah and believe and strive >> to obey His laws and teach others as best I can to do likewise. >> >> regards, >> doug > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sat Oct 11 10:11:38 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4047D4B0646 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:11:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qly6Sl6o1DDM for ; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:11:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id C63D64B0729; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:11:37 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 09:12:15 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 05:04:10 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: mike3 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 02:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: x16g2000prn.googlegroups.com; posting-host=70.101.144.125; posting-account=fwSgtAkAAACFnX70ssKwbvm9_oCZVHrx User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.0.3) Gecko/2008092417 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KoaOM-0000Ik-NF X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-0.302, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 2.30) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-uvhOgw/Dm2Bwk7Qrk0TKCdJt2jaONW/DUCd2XPBZhvkZ0l052j+x+Z+mQIbgOujgUFZptyWTZ2nefMe!6g14tj5Zak9L1r47xguG3zuCrXRHi92MFIoYHPrBMKA4hSwbERMnAKvKT5SpBhHqvEhtHTbM+w== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25446 On Oct 3, 7:12=A0pm, Douglas McAdam wrote: > Here is the quote and there are others- > IN THE NAME OF HIM WHO IS THE SUPREME RULEROVER ALL THAT HATH BEEN AND =A0 > > ALL THAT IS TO BE > > The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition =A0 > of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His =A0 > > laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause =A0 > and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained =A0 > unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though =A0 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who =A0 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, =A0 > > to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. =A0 > These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the =A0 > other. (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 16) > Hmm. Does this therefore mean that even those people who are really good in their hearts and have devoted themselves to helping the world and doing as much good as they can for humanity and everything, but who do not recognize God's prophet, have _failed_ and so are "damned" and are actually very miserable? Does this mean that in their Afterlife, they would be lost forever with no hope, despite all that good and stuff (esp. all the stuff about "no free will in the afterlife" suggesting no way to alter the course "away" from God that would _appear_ to be set up by ignorance of the prophet in spite of all the goodness)? From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sat Oct 11 10:12:41 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 928924B0AD7 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:12:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WPNDVVDOu8DZ for ; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:12:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 181734B0AC0; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:12:41 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 09:12:42 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 06:41:53 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :content-disposition; bh=ZeU4SMNUKBZYDGsCoIiR0aZLXwBxqUyjRxhK11WkUlU=; b=Q4nKlPzlvYgtYjoDNeZ25mtQnX9KIj5+L0KAKaK8/u3kBs+rhtZOLxvlJqR3Xs53e/ uYYYOO5isJ/sUTfj5TF5joet7d5p6adq/IEyej+LZ09rJTcr54EwkEpdxRSi1ugCPWit u7Ed+CIlQn1XNnGHy9rT5+2CYdM5kuXlDJ7L4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=DAd4fmC1Feb7NIa6ipeQVP1stNaX3NLfIvKxGiF6nfbi9eeInUL3KYGpbtgu+/l3Z2 fXBpfLAX3+Jkliwtzk8URFCU6tmUCTcUnmwqBdLbVBl6ktbELjIH8/Ug+93dmi3T+yMr b0/Pt0TDVi9lviDZX2fQ7DeyLiYz4SW7bAudo= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 20:41:42 +1000 From: "Martin Clark" Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kobuw-0003GK-6z X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: <5aidnfawjpTHKW3VnZ2dnUVZ_o_inZ2d@giganews.com> X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-E6hmsmpWqD3JZHfHEBey+YvBp+2CW6/b17l1ekZzpVKaihF/ATNozerJjB2rhLCRDoce/kOu2knJZIr!zeB7F1Lk9ieUPtkUVeYtrhqSFnvtg+ICxTL+gyOWP0MBpWLA9NOtM3CwFNYvAnduEO3+In8HEg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25447 compx2 wrote in news:F86dnZpv0eOzT3LVnZ2dnUVZ_orinZ2d@giganews.com: > Hi Doug, > > Both Mike and I were confused about your intolerance toward the > drinking of alcohol by non-Baha'is. > > But you have cleared it up with your recent advocation of intolerance > toward those who fail to follow all of God's Law. > > I am curious how future Baha'is will enforce daily prayer for non- > Baha'is, however. Perhaps you can clear that up for me. > > --Kent > > On Oct 9, 10:23 pm, Douglas McAdam > wrote: >> Not sure but I believe Kent wrote the following - >> >> >> a political position as is yours that society needs to educate >> >> children on your position against alcohol and further regulate its >> >> use. Doug's position waivers, or is inconsistent I can't tell yet. >> >> My point is that whether or not I agree with the Baha'i political >> >> position, it taints me. >> >> >> And my only defense is to argue with you. What you believe is the >> >> Baha'i Faith is NOT the Baha'i Faith. >> >> Please show me where my position wavers. I thought I was quite clear. >> >> regards, >> doug Look to Abdu'l Baha. If it was possible, he tolerated it. If not, he didn't, but in almost all cases, he kept his peace. IMHO refraining from causing offence is far more important. I don't have a problem with alcohol because even if it wasn't ruled against I can't have more than one standard drink - something to do with an incident that occurred many years ago. I live in Australia, and most people I know drink. I'm occasionally asked "is it against your religion" which is useful in starting a discussion, which would be killed stone dead if I came across as judgemental. On the other hand, one member of my family has been advised (by, in Baha'u'llah's words, a "Competent Physician") to drink a glass of red wine or port each day. This person has successfully battled a severe medical problem for 30 years now so we don't mess with the advice. Regards, Martin Clark From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sat Oct 11 10:12:47 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA9334B09D8 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:12:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N2dpHYsbsKiN for ; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:12:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 604AB4B0B68; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:12:46 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 09:12:54 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 08:05:00 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 05:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <7uadnXpC9NqFdHHVnZ2dnUVZ_oPinZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: compx2@gmail.com Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: 34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.2.209; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KodDJ-0000Yq-G7 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-8ZHB45dOvhWgTw6EXcuALApycUMT84NQHhyHU6kjZLKM0QNV1a36Xy66XaGBIv5IiPxN/ehjvgxvMKy!ONleo2Mt5N0J5cDCYBc4kAMwFIdA0/Z3Hlzs/VRt9y1op24xKYerfZg8iGDtSW+toZN0BRoszA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25448 Hi Doug, > I used the Ten Commandments as an example... Yes, you did, when you were talking about the punishment in store for Paul who is a non-Baha'i who enjoys drinking a single alcoholic beverage occassionally. I say there is no such punishment, then you brought up the Ten Commandments as examples of God's Law that should be universal civil law as well. So I went through them, and half of the Ten Commandments are not civil law nearly anywhere on earth. So they are not a good example of God's Law that is now civil law. Unless you are dropping that assertion we should go on talking about the other things you have neglected to answer, such as men's hair length, daily prayer, and dowrys. How will the Baha'i Police enforce such laws? > See God Passes > By regarding the twin pillars of Justice. I think you are well aware that I have read the Writings and know well what is said. That is why I said: "there is reward, but no punishment, except in extreme cases." The sources you refer to back me up in that. If you cannot come up with a single specific question about my assertion, I suggest you read a bit more on the subject of God's justice and mercy. I believe you will find I am right about this. > Show me one example of a Scriptural law of God that when broken will > not produce a punishment, either self-inflicted or inflicted by society. Generousity. Many places all scripture demands that we should "be generous". What is the specific punishment for not being generous? Daily prayer? Hair length? Dowry? Just to repeat myself, there are rewards for such actions, but no punishment for those who do not perform those actions. > So now you, preaching about tolerance to Baha'is, are judging me. I can show you where you have said those things. No judgment, it is a matter of believing that you mean what you say, which is becoming more and more difficult, by the way. > I have given you > quotes from the Writings in every case that I commented upon but you > have produced none to back up your assertions. You mean a general reference to GPB, "reward and punishment"? I didn't say there is no punishment, I did not deny your reference to the "Writings". I just said you are misguided in a number of ways in your intepretation of the writings. > If you don't agree then produce references from objective science and > true religion such as the Baha'i Writings. You and I are so far apart in our views it would be futile. But please note that even Mike's source for carcinogenic cancer recommends moderate alcohol consumption for cardio health in those who are accustomed to such. And if you would like me to back up your assertions of intolerance to non-Baha'i that will be easy, the record is clear. But I doubt it would be interesting to anyone, and might even be against the policies here just to drudge up the things you have been saying the past few years. I prefer to focus on the intolerant things you say with each new message instead. --Kent On Oct 10, 11:43=A0am, Douglas McAdam wrote: > Please see my comment inserted. > > On Oct 9, 2008, at 10:18 PM, compx2 wrote: > > > Hi Doug, > > >> ...all bear consequences > >> if disobeyed > > > I say all of them will give us confirmations if we obey. =A0I don't > > think there is punishment for disobeying unless we intentionally harm > > others. =A0I say there is reward, but no punishment, except in extreme > > cases. > > I used the Ten Commandments as an example of God's Laws which when =A0 > broken have cause grief to mankind because inherent in all of the Laws =A0 > of God is the twin pillars of reward and punishment. =A0See God Passes =A0 > By regarding the twin pillars of Justice. > Show me one example of a Scriptural law of God that when broken will =A0 > not produce a punishment, either self-inflicted or inflicted by society. > > > > >> any objective > >> and scientific research will prove it is better to keep than break > >> these laws. > > > False. =A0But it is better to keep than to break the laws. =A0No resear ch > > will prove it, but it is true. > > Again show me an example of a broken law that has not produced bad =A0 > effects on an individual and society. > > > > >> I accept Baha'u'llah and believe and strive > >> to obey His laws and teach others as best I can to do likewise. > > > Not from what I have seen here. =A0You argue that people must become > > Baha'is, not just follow the laws. =A0You aren't satisfied that they > > might be saints but have wine with dinner, you want to outlaw the > > wine. =A0And even then they will have to sign a card before you will > > even realize the good they do for humanity. > > So now you, preaching about tolerance to Baha'is, are judging me. =A0You =A0 > are saying I do not accept Baha'u'llah and strive to obey His Laws and =A0 > teach others as best I can. How can you justify this with the Baha'i =A0 > Writings? > Where did I ever say that what you accuse me of? =A0I have given you =A0 > quotes from the Writings in every case that I commented upon but you =A0 > have produced none to back up your assertions. > > > > >> Sounds to me like you are saying that all the studies against the use > >> of alcohol and drugs are biased. > > > No, just some of them are biased. =A0Drugs and alcohol are bad, it is > > just not a Baha'i issue that they should be illegal, but rather a > > political issue. > > Baha'u'llah made its prohibition a Baha'i matter and so that is all I =A0 > need to know. =A0By political if you mean by way of govt. then I agree =A0 > it is political, but it is not partisan politics. =A0As I have =A0 > previously explained, the former Laws of God, such as the Ten =A0 > Commandments, became the laws of society by way of the govt. accepting =A0 > and enforcing them. =A0Likewise the Laws of God as revealed by =A0 > Baha'u'llah are destined to become the laws of the Baha'i Govt. in our =A0 > upcoming New World Order, the International Laws, etc. =A0Do you not =A0 > think the whole world will be governed some day by Baha'i Admin.? =A0 If =A0 > so do you have any quotes from the Writings to back up your ideas? =A0 =A0 > The Beloved Guardian wrote extensively about the New World Order, the =A0 > Baha'i Commonwealth and its Institutions that will govern the world. =A0 > Are you saying this is not going to happen? > > Kent, no matter what argument you put forth it must somehow be =A0 > prompted by and backed by references to science and religion. =A0I find =A0 > no such references in your argument. =A0All I find is you making =A0 > assertions that any disagreement to you, even when the Writings and =A0 > science studies are produced, you say are wrong but you never produce =A0 > any evidence. > > Bottom line to me is that Baha'u'llah has prohibited alcohol and since =A0 > He also gave us the principle of the harmony of science and religion =A0 > in society and faith and reason in individuals then it is only a =A0 > matter of time when the govt. and society will have the needed =A0 > evidence to enact this into civil law. > > If you don't agree then produce references from objective science and =A0 > true religion such as the Baha'i Writings. > > Until then the matter is closed for me and since you keep making =A0 > negative personal remarks about me and my opinions I am appealing to =A0 > the Mods. to step in and remind you that this is supposed to be a =A0 > Baha'i forum which follows the principles of consultation and certain =A0 > guidelines of proper discussion. > > God bless, > doug > > > > > > > --Kent > > > On Oct 8, 12:15 pm, Douglas McAdam > > wrote: > >> Kent- > >> The Ten Commandments are Laws from God. > >> Some have become civil laws and some are not but all bear =A0 > >> consequences > > >> if disobeyed and that is easily proven by an unbiased observation of > >> society. > >> God has spoken to us again and Baha'u'llah has prohibited the =A0 > >> drinking > > >> of alcohol and use of drugs and His laws are for all mankind and the > >> consequences of disobedience are easily observable. > >> These disobediences are having a negative effect on all of us Kent, > >> even you, and in many ways not so easily observable but any objective > >> and scientific research will prove it is better to keep than break > >> these laws. > >> The Baha'i Faith is the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth. > >> The final realization of what was prophesied for thousands of =A0 > >> years, a > > >> "day not followed by night" and we will see in the future a Baha'i > >> Commonwealth. =A0You have no doubt read about it in detail in the > >> Writings in general and specifically in the Guardian's writings. =A0Al l > > >> God's laws will become binding on all peoples. =A0 However the > >> application of these laws and the entire process is quite different > >> than what has been going on in our society for centuries now. =A0The > >> Houses of Justice will be administering justice in a much purer form > >> than what our civil govt. has been doing. > >> I do not tolerate disease, poor food, alcohol, drugs, racism and all > >> forms of prejudice or anything that interferes with the soul =A0 > >> becoming > > >> more developed but that does not mean I go around judging people. =A0O n > > >> the contrary I spend most of my time doing service work to help end > >> these problems and lead souls to the Faith. =A0If others wish to drink > > >> alcohol =A0that is their business but if they ask my opinion I will =A0 > >> give > > >> them the truth about how I feel and what the Writings say. =A0But I do > > >> it in a loving way as best I can. > >> Sounds to me like you are saying that all the studies against the use > >> of alcohol and drugs are biased. =A0Whether they are or not is beside > >> the point for me because I accept Baha'u'llah and believe and strive > >> to obey His laws and teach others as best I can to do likewise. > > >> regards, > >> doug- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sat Oct 11 10:13:03 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 771554B0B68 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:13:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3BDF31Hv+DJt for ; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:13:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 2EBB74B0B4A; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:13:03 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 09:13:18 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 08:08:25 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 05:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <7uadnXpC9NqFdHHVnZ2dnUVZ_oPinZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: compx2@gmail.com Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: 34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.2.209; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KodGf-0000jX-Vv X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-mmQSIRm6668dhXydepXvzeyCIC3MnI6L8nIpfFPmaZ2W92g6WAgJbwDMRiWMHaDyRbyTYB+Me1OY2mu!niPY7wNaiPYOwb6ASVoqJZHglcwcQV6oc85TR2ystohNx3OuBjCPHE7Rt9Mp2e9QdggDu6+HXA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25449 Hi Doug, > I used the Ten Commandments as an example... Yes, you did, when you were talking about the punishment in store for Paul who is a non-Baha'i who enjoys drinking a single alcoholic beverage occassionally. I say there is no such punishment, then you brought up the Ten Commandments as examples of God's Law that should be universal civil law as well. So I went through them, and half of the Ten Commandments are not civil law nearly anywhere on earth. So they are not a good example of God's Law that is now civil law. Unless you are dropping that assertion we should go on talking about the other things you have neglected to answer, such as men's hair length, daily prayer, and dowrys. How will the Baha'i Police enforce such laws? > See God Passes > By regarding the twin pillars of Justice. I think you are well aware that I have read the Writings and know well what is said. That is why I said: "there is reward, but no punishment, except in extreme cases." The sources you refer to back me up in that. If you cannot come up with a single specific question about my assertion, I suggest you read a bit more on the subject of God's justice and mercy. I believe you will find I am right about this. > Show me one example of a Scriptural law of God that when broken will > not produce a punishment, either self-inflicted or inflicted by society. Generousity. Many places all scripture demands that we should "be generous". What is the specific punishment for not being generous? Daily prayer? Hair length? Dowry? Just to repeat myself, there are rewards for such actions, but no punishment for those who do not perform those actions. > So now you, preaching about tolerance to Baha'is, are judging me. I can show you where you have said those things. No judgment, it is a matter of believing that you mean what you say, which is becoming more and more difficult, by the way. > I have given you > quotes from the Writings in every case that I commented upon but you > have produced none to back up your assertions. You mean a general reference to GPB, "reward and punishment"? I didn't say there is no punishment, I did not deny your reference to the "Writings". I just said you are misguided in a number of ways in your intepretation of the writings. > If you don't agree then produce references from objective science and > true religion such as the Baha'i Writings. You and I are so far apart in our views it would be futile. But please note that even Mike's source for carcinogenic cancer recommends moderate alcohol consumption for cardio health in those who are accustomed to such. And if you would like me to back up your assertions of intolerance to non-Baha'i that will be easy, the record is clear. But I doubt it would be interesting to anyone, and might even be against the policies here just to drudge up the things you have been saying the past few years. I prefer to focus on the intolerant things you say with each new message instead. --Kent On Oct 10, 11:43=A0am, Douglas McAdam wrote: > Please see my comment inserted. > > On Oct 9, 2008, at 10:18 PM, compx2 wrote: > > > Hi Doug, > > >> ...all bear consequences > >> if disobeyed > > > I say all of them will give us confirmations if we obey. =A0I don't > > think there is punishment for disobeying unless we intentionally harm > > others. =A0I say there is reward, but no punishment, except in extreme > > cases. > > I used the Ten Commandments as an example of God's Laws which when =A0 > broken have cause grief to mankind because inherent in all of the Laws =A0 > of God is the twin pillars of reward and punishment. =A0See God Passes =A0 > By regarding the twin pillars of Justice. > Show me one example of a Scriptural law of God that when broken will =A0 > not produce a punishment, either self-inflicted or inflicted by society. > > > > >> any objective > >> and scientific research will prove it is better to keep than break > >> these laws. > > > False. =A0But it is better to keep than to break the laws. =A0No resear ch > > will prove it, but it is true. > > Again show me an example of a broken law that has not produced bad =A0 > effects on an individual and society. > > > > >> I accept Baha'u'llah and believe and strive > >> to obey His laws and teach others as best I can to do likewise. > > > Not from what I have seen here. =A0You argue that people must become > > Baha'is, not just follow the laws. =A0You aren't satisfied that they > > might be saints but have wine with dinner, you want to outlaw the > > wine. =A0And even then they will have to sign a card before you will > > even realize the good they do for humanity. > > So now you, preaching about tolerance to Baha'is, are judging me. =A0You =A0 > are saying I do not accept Baha'u'llah and strive to obey His Laws and =A0 > teach others as best I can. How can you justify this with the Baha'i =A0 > Writings? > Where did I ever say that what you accuse me of? =A0I have given you =A0 > quotes from the Writings in every case that I commented upon but you =A0 > have produced none to back up your assertions. > > > > >> Sounds to me like you are saying that all the studies against the use > >> of alcohol and drugs are biased. > > > No, just some of them are biased. =A0Drugs and alcohol are bad, it is > > just not a Baha'i issue that they should be illegal, but rather a > > political issue. > > Baha'u'llah made its prohibition a Baha'i matter and so that is all I =A0 > need to know. =A0By political if you mean by way of govt. then I agree =A0 > it is political, but it is not partisan politics. =A0As I have =A0 > previously explained, the former Laws of God, such as the Ten =A0 > Commandments, became the laws of society by way of the govt. accepting =A0 > and enforcing them. =A0Likewise the Laws of God as revealed by =A0 > Baha'u'llah are destined to become the laws of the Baha'i Govt. in our =A0 > upcoming New World Order, the International Laws, etc. =A0Do you not =A0 > think the whole world will be governed some day by Baha'i Admin.? =A0 If =A0 > so do you have any quotes from the Writings to back up your ideas? =A0 =A0 > The Beloved Guardian wrote extensively about the New World Order, the =A0 > Baha'i Commonwealth and its Institutions that will govern the world. =A0 > Are you saying this is not going to happen? > > Kent, no matter what argument you put forth it must somehow be =A0 > prompted by and backed by references to science and religion. =A0I find =A0 > no such references in your argument. =A0All I find is you making =A0 > assertions that any disagreement to you, even when the Writings and =A0 > science studies are produced, you say are wrong but you never produce =A0 > any evidence. > > Bottom line to me is that Baha'u'llah has prohibited alcohol and since =A0 > He also gave us the principle of the harmony of science and religion =A0 > in society and faith and reason in individuals then it is only a =A0 > matter of time when the govt. and society will have the needed =A0 > evidence to enact this into civil law. > > If you don't agree then produce references from objective science and =A0 > true religion such as the Baha'i Writings. > > Until then the matter is closed for me and since you keep making =A0 > negative personal remarks about me and my opinions I am appealing to =A0 > the Mods. to step in and remind you that this is supposed to be a =A0 > Baha'i forum which follows the principles of consultation and certain =A0 > guidelines of proper discussion. > > God bless, > doug > > > > > > > --Kent > > > On Oct 8, 12:15 pm, Douglas McAdam > > wrote: > >> Kent- > >> The Ten Commandments are Laws from God. > >> Some have become civil laws and some are not but all bear =A0 > >> consequences > > >> if disobeyed and that is easily proven by an unbiased observation of > >> society. > >> God has spoken to us again and Baha'u'llah has prohibited the =A0 > >> drinking > > >> of alcohol and use of drugs and His laws are for all mankind and the > >> consequences of disobedience are easily observable. > >> These disobediences are having a negative effect on all of us Kent, > >> even you, and in many ways not so easily observable but any objective > >> and scientific research will prove it is better to keep than break > >> these laws. > >> The Baha'i Faith is the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth. > >> The final realization of what was prophesied for thousands of =A0 > >> years, a > > >> "day not followed by night" and we will see in the future a Baha'i > >> Commonwealth. =A0You have no doubt read about it in detail in the > >> Writings in general and specifically in the Guardian's writings. =A0Al l > > >> God's laws will become binding on all peoples. =A0 However the > >> application of these laws and the entire process is quite different > >> than what has been going on in our society for centuries now. =A0The > >> Houses of Justice will be administering justice in a much purer form > >> than what our civil govt. has been doing. > >> I do not tolerate disease, poor food, alcohol, drugs, racism and all > >> forms of prejudice or anything that interferes with the soul =A0 > >> becoming > > >> more developed but that does not mean I go around judging people. =A0O n > > >> the contrary I spend most of my time doing service work to help end > >> these problems and lead souls to the Faith. =A0If others wish to drink > > >> alcohol =A0that is their business but if they ask my opinion I will =A0 > >> give > > >> them the truth about how I feel and what the Writings say. =A0But I do > > >> it in a loving way as best I can. > >> Sounds to me like you are saying that all the studies against the use > >> of alcohol and drugs are biased. =A0Whether they are or not is beside > >> the point for me because I accept Baha'u'llah and believe and strive > >> to obey His laws and teach others as best I can to do likewise. > > >> regards, > >> doug- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sat Oct 11 10:13:16 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EB994B09D8 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:13:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ls9mF-Ky5iT5 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:13:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 936634B0B4A; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:13:15 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 09:13:41 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 09:24:53 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: mikeran37@yahoo.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 06:24:42 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com; posting-host=70.236.3.116; posting-account=M_40MwoAAACezPB6m4wCKE4LAJjMzCeb User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.1.3) Gecko/20070323 PCLinuxOS/2.0.0.3-3pclos2007 (2007) Firefox/2.0.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KoeSg-0006Kd-Ql X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-0.302, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 2.30) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-ady0X3DBmIwe32SZHPJdAdax+Epg9zffMgWSQqyDdTgreg/no1kNwPGU/Irp+A11o3YFs2KB0Xx3EXL!d9gCTTF/pDZbnORDhLU1daNtwmsanp+Jc+Q3scdiOlrqS1nh2ttTUWWzJBsCq9r1TaKzrhxCCw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25450 >...20+ years of research behind it >Kind of true. It was a study that took people who had head and neck >cancer and worked backwards to divine the relationship of the cancer >to alcohol and cigarette use. So yes, some of the people had been >tracked for 20 years, but the study was not designed and carried out >over 20 years. You're confused here about all the facts. It's good to read one study. There are a multitude of epidemiologic studies that had originally been mis-read. Meaning that back in the day people thought those workers at the stone cutter quarries were getting cancer because of the dust. Or that the workers at the body shop were getting cancer because of the aerosolized plastics. But now a re-reading of those studies have concluded that a common factor to alot of previously unrelated cancers is alcohol. People in these jobs tend to be drinkers. Alcohol as a solvent is already implicated as a co- carcinogen, hence it's bad effects with smoking. But if anything, this is just the door opening on the subject. You should read all of research on this, not just one research paper. Alcohol has now been classified as a carcinogen on it's own. >So from my independent investigation, I find your education to be >propaganda. Your education work is vastly inferior to mine. I face >the facts as they are, not as you think they should be. So in all of you superior research, why do you believe that alcohol is classed as a carcinogen on it's own merrit (without smoking)? More importantly do you know what carcinogen means, and why not let those people drinking know this little fact? It's on a pack of cigarrettes? Why not put a warning on alcohol: contains carcinogen. It wasn't but twenty years ago when the smoker's lobby snatched up on the idea that ciggarrette smoking would protect some elderly people from neurodegeneration in parkinsons. Suddenly all the old people should be smoking. What they failed to mention was that if a comparable person were smoking, he'd be dead a good 10-15 years earlier from lung cancer. The truth about alcohol is muddled with lobbyism, but a fair reading of the literature can't ignore the deleterious realities associated with this activity. I have little doubt that the cost to our society in terms of death, cancer, medical bills, lost talents..etc., far exceeds any theoretical benefits. >Best beloved is justice. Someone might be fair, but it evidently will >not be you. By your own reckoning, you've read one article? And you're espousing justice. Since you're a fair minded with a superior knowledge of the research just person: Why is alcohol classified as a carcinogen? and a co- carcinogen? From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sat Oct 11 11:56:58 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D25D04B0B00 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 11:56:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qGSaOMXCIVqk for ; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 11:56:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 226914B0B11; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 11:56:52 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:57:04 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:46:28 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=iI6HLSgmd92SwWiPVU4Zi0/v19oFjz+Hw1EpDg8YFTDnpDpPFhvTQpswBK0UHhPbk638OcPPc1GO2lyVoPT27FXKD9P9+fU813MdO/B8segj5v6qoNm91dz1VJYVNuHfHQo/CKAdvcvHoHSu/+A4iwpzbSq6xv6+ewZNDx9p2D4= ; X-YMail-OSG: bmti0NMVM1lcZgzTRqUHA2vvyDcWg_zyJlR743wCvg8LgPaPDT6T6FKlQZ60CB32Kl95V.VoiBlO8koNNq7AMP574SVs5fZcH3iOZso0vvkGQnJdGqrXODy.2CLTv4bN.hajp_T6fS8o0hvGG1o_vRsTJWgYNDbp_T97g55a0QdYOcPmDs.jdGvwXs3P X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:46:13 -0400 References: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-yPsMZBNyZ5D9dGwDh7j/pwIlizASYlniHNXR+QxWRwKBgbomkD9C1OL8EbJvocHAI1fBq9C2MvMxjGo!97ocVXMR8R0SUgKVYEPATPIvYhanOYX/0bZg8wwBGwDUyw8iPjDMcMOX8Fti5eo3+4M3Vq0fZQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25451 Dear Mike- First of all I or any other Baha'i cannot judge the spirituality of another soul. That is God's job. All I have done is produced quotes relative to the discussion. However I can offer my understanding of that quote, but in the context of other quotes relative to the twin duties. My understanding is that if a person is confronted by the Manifestation and rejects Him then no matter how loving and kind they may be their acts are useless in the eyes of God. Here is the specific portion of the quote relevant to this - >> Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained >> unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though >> he be the author of every righteous deed. That seems pretty clear does it not? My personal feeling is that if people were indeed living lives in accordance with God's Laws and Teachings then they would readily recognize the Manifestation when He appears. History seems to show what happened when the previous religion's believers did not recognize the new Manifestations. I have learned over the years that many souls will reject what I am teaching them about the Manifestation for today and His Revelation but then after a spell they accept. I think this is due to an ego problem, that the soul really accepts but the ego rejects because it does want to lose control. I once had a psychologist reject for 15 yrs. my attempts to teach him about how the Baha'i Teachings relate to addiction therapy and finally he told me he had been wrong because he was only seeing things through his academic training and not by taking into consideration the Baha'i Writings. So I don't judge souls, I simply teach and show them love and understanding. I give them the Writings and let them deal with it and I answer questions directly. regards, doug On Oct 11, 2008, at 5:03 AM, mike3 wrote: > On Oct 3, 7:12 pm, Douglas McAdam wrote: > >> Here is the quote and there are others- >> IN THE NAME OF HIM WHO IS THE SUPREME RULEROVER ALL THAT HATH BEEN >> AND > >> >> ALL THAT IS TO BE >> >> The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition >> of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His >> >> laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause >> and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained >> unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >> he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent >> glory, > >> >> to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. >> These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the >> other. (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 16) >> > > > Hmm. Does this therefore mean that even those people who are really > good in their hearts and have devoted themselves to helping the world > and > doing as much good as they can for humanity and everything, but who > do not recognize God's prophet, have _failed_ and so are "damned" and > are actually very miserable? Does this mean that in their Afterlife, > they > would be lost forever with no hope, despite all that good and stuff > (esp. > all the stuff about "no free will in the afterlife" suggesting no way > to alter > the course "away" from God that would _appear_ to be set up by > ignorance > of the prophet in spite of all the goodness)? > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sat Oct 11 11:57:27 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76E634B0B00 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 11:57:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SXeqcqYla9Zs for ; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 11:57:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 296804B0B59; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 11:57:26 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:57:58 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 11:20:27 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=5jLygqoYkKzCtOmOD7AWvjxwY8dQ0v9+DXLcD20AeEh9TyNTZ0fKR1c5eo6PZhQEC3CPCZiy9aFVXS1xaSpzNVlPxF8Ioqa/bmDDuj5biW4nlH2q/z+UY5cSetpHDQyLhAH0t6I/nbiwbDM+EFymGphJeA0Wxhzoi9HiTj1frI8= ; X-YMail-OSG: I6nZQ_oVM1lOpdmOA81dTqvgH1BztBe3XsLcy2PWaNBp0pMKPeLDHTvkMiRZfE4IMJFlBJhgnL.PwivCoPILXR4huZZ1VxxEsIJtf1Kn7nq6aJHMsX6.6IkZ.lYFhturykKO4pJ_Bx9hpOkobrmRvwlk6Ollep5OQQSYTC.4h6zI6mSKBbAIAsUGvOIl X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 11:20:07 -0400 References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <7uadnXpC9NqFdHHVnZ2dnUVZ_oPinZ2d@giganews.com> X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KogGR-0005oH-Vi X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: <8vidnR9LpoCbUG3VnZ2dnUVZ_srinZ2d@giganews.com> X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-DIM1YKONANZC8RX8u4KWqTwMl8tv0HQBWwcFIs8FUaaNplN5kauCKCkXfvzy+hMGj57mFkCJcmUnueb!dcEEC3KcbSKF6oVWRu28rVWLcF6bRqTTq6PpmDHdQYLUcuZXVdlpQD7O7Cm/pGVcHxRH8lITxw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25452 On Oct 11, 2008, at 8:03 AM, compx2 wrote: > Hi Doug, > >> I used the Ten Commandments as an example... > > Yes, you did, when you were talking about the punishment in store for > Paul who is a non-Baha'i who enjoys drinking a single alcoholic > beverage occassionally. I say there is no such punishment, then you > brought up the Ten Commandments as examples of God's Law that should > be universal civil law as well. Kent- I did not say the Ten Commandments should be civil law. I said they are an example of how God's Laws became civil laws. And they incur punishment either by society or self punishment depending on circumstances and conditions. Obviously the laws such as stealing, murder, and the like are punishable by civil law whereas other laws, if violated in a Christian culture by non Christians might result in prejudice towards them. What happens to a person in Court who refuses to swear to tell the truth and the whole truth "so help you God" on the bible? Does that person then get treated with the same justice they should? Do you really think that in the future Baha'i Commonwealth, the New World Order of Baha'u'llah there will be no civil laws from the Faith imposed on society? If so can you give me a quote saying this? > > So I went through them, and half of the Ten Commandments are not civil > law nearly anywhere on earth. So they are not a good example of God's > Law that is now civil law. But some were made civil laws, weren't they. The ones that weren't were obviously not something society could enact as civil law but in any case violation of them causes problems. > > > Unless you are dropping that assertion we should go on talking about > the other things you have neglected to answer, such as men's hair > length, daily prayer, and dowrys. How will the Baha'i Police enforce > such laws? Abdu'l-Baha has already answered this Kent and I would think you know it. I have a seven page document of his explanations of laws, reward and punishment etc. and I have posted a few before. > > >> See God Passes >> By regarding the twin pillars of Justice. > > I think you are well aware that I have read the Writings and know well > what is said. That is why I said: "there is reward, but no > punishment, except in extreme cases." The sources you refer to back > me up in that. Can you show me a quote to back up your conclusions about reward and punishment please? > > If you cannot come up with a single specific question about my > assertion, I suggest you read a bit more on the subject of God's > justice and mercy. I believe you will find I am right about this. > >> Show me one example of a Scriptural law of God that when broken will >> not produce a punishment, either self-inflicted or inflicted by >> society. > > Generousity. Many places all scripture demands that we should "be > generous". What is the specific punishment for not being generous? > Daily prayer? Hair length? Dowry? Generosity is a Scriptural Law? News to me. Can you give me a quote? Generosity is a virtue and our purpose is to acquire virtues. The Writings tell us that if we do not acquire a virtue the void will be filled with a human fault. So wouldn't having human faults be a form of self punishment once we know we are to acquire virtues? > > Just to repeat myself, there are rewards for such actions, but no > punishment for those who do not perform those actions. You have not produced any quotes from the Writings to show this to me. > > >> So now you, preaching about tolerance to Baha'is, are judging me. > > I can show you where you have said those things. No judgment, it is a > matter of believing that you mean what you say, which is becoming more > and more difficult, by the way. No, you can only show me how you misunderstand what I say. This is why I keep insisting that we follow the guidelines of consultation and avoid personal judgments. > > >> I have given you >> quotes from the Writings in every case that I commented upon but you >> have produced none to back up your assertions. > > You mean a general reference to GPB, "reward and punishment"? I > didn't say there is no punishment, I did not deny your reference to > the "Writings". I just said you are misguided in a number of ways in > your intepretation of the writings. So you are guided and I am misguided? Who is doing the guiding? I thought we are all entitled to our own interpretation of the Writings but that we are not to impose these on others. We are discussing the harm of disobedience to the Baha'i law of prohibition of alcohol and in spite of direct references to the law from the Writings you disagree. That is not my problem Kent but you can easily settle this by writing to the House of Justice or consulting with an ABM or Counselor. > > >> If you don't agree then produce references from objective science and >> true religion such as the Baha'i Writings. > > You and I are so far apart in our views it would be futile. But > please note that even Mike's source for carcinogenic cancer recommends > moderate alcohol consumption for cardio health in those who are > accustomed to such. As I said, why not produce quotes from true science and true religion so we can be objective here? However it may be futile because so far you argue with both types of references. > > And if you would like me to back up your assertions of intolerance to > non-Baha'i that will be easy, the record is clear. But I doubt it > would be interesting to anyone, and might even be against the policies > here just to drudge up the things you have been saying the past few > years. What record is clear? You have no idea about my relationships with non-Baha'is. This is another veiled attempt to discredit my character and I cannot for the life of me see how this relates to Baha'i consultation. > > I prefer to focus on the intolerant things you say with each new > message instead. So show me an intolerant thing I said in the this new message and I will explain it more clearly. I well know the limitations of emails and how people can misunderstand things which is why I would think you would ask questions for clarity if you disagree instead of accusing me to be intolerant. God bless, doug > > > --Kent > > > On Oct 10, 11:43 am, Douglas McAdam > wrote: >> Please see my comment inserted. >> >> On Oct 9, 2008, at 10:18 PM, compx2 wrote: >> >>> Hi Doug, >> >>>> ...all bear consequences >>>> if disobeyed >> >>> I say all of them will give us confirmations if we obey. I don't >>> think there is punishment for disobeying unless we intentionally >>> harm >>> others. I say there is reward, but no punishment, except in extreme >>> cases. >> >> I used the Ten Commandments as an example of God's Laws which when >> broken have cause grief to mankind because inherent in all of the >> Laws > >> of God is the twin pillars of reward and punishment. See God Passes > >> By regarding the twin pillars of Justice. >> Show me one example of a Scriptural law of God that when broken will >> not produce a punishment, either self-inflicted or inflicted by >> society. >> >> >> >>>> any objective >>>> and scientific research will prove it is better to keep than break >>>> these laws. >> >>> False. But it is better to keep than to break the laws. No resear > ch >>> will prove it, but it is true. >> >> Again show me an example of a broken law that has not produced bad >> effects on an individual and society. >> >> >> >>>> I accept Baha'u'llah and believe and strive >>>> to obey His laws and teach others as best I can to do likewise. >> >>> Not from what I have seen here. You argue that people must become >>> Baha'is, not just follow the laws. You aren't satisfied that they >>> might be saints but have wine with dinner, you want to outlaw the >>> wine. And even then they will have to sign a card before you will >>> even realize the good they do for humanity. >> >> So now you, preaching about tolerance to Baha'is, are judging me. >> You > >> are saying I do not accept Baha'u'llah and strive to obey His Laws >> and > >> teach others as best I can. How can you justify this with the Baha'i >> Writings? >> Where did I ever say that what you accuse me of? I have given you >> quotes from the Writings in every case that I commented upon but you >> have produced none to back up your assertions. >> >> >> >>>> Sounds to me like you are saying that all the studies against the >>>> use >>>> of alcohol and drugs are biased. >> >>> No, just some of them are biased. Drugs and alcohol are bad, it is >>> just not a Baha'i issue that they should be illegal, but rather a >>> political issue. >> >> Baha'u'llah made its prohibition a Baha'i matter and so that is all I >> need to know. By political if you mean by way of govt. then I agree > >> it is political, but it is not partisan politics. As I have >>>> and scientific research will prove it is better to keep than break >>>> these laws. >>>> The Baha'i Faith is the establishment of the Kingdom of God on >>>> earth. >>>> The final realization of what was prophesied for thousands of >>>> years, a >> >>>> "day not followed by night" and we will see in the future a Baha'i >>>> Commonwealth. You have no doubt read about it in detail in the >>>> Writings in general and specifically in the Guardian's writings. >>>> Al > l >> >>>> God's laws will become binding on all peoples. However the >>>> application of these laws and the entire process is quite different >>>> than what has been going on in our society for centuries now. The >>>> Houses of Justice will be administering justice in a much purer >>>> form >>>> than what our civil govt. has been doing. >>>> I do not tolerate disease, poor food, alcohol, drugs, racism and >>>> all >>>> forms of prejudice or anything that interferes with the soul >>>> becoming >> >>>> more developed but that does not mean I go around judging >>>> people. O > n >> >>>> the contrary I spend most of my time doing service work to help end >>>> these problems and lead souls to the Faith. If others wish to >>>> drink >> >>>> alcohol that is their business but if they ask my opinion I will > >>>> give >> >>>> them the truth about how I feel and what the Writings say. But I >>>> do >> >>>> it in a loving way as best I can. >>>> Sounds to me like you are saying that all the studies against the >>>> use >>>> of alcohol and drugs are biased. Whether they are or not is beside >>>> the point for me because I accept Baha'u'llah and believe and >>>> strive >>>> to obey His laws and teach others as best I can to do likewise. >> >>>> regards, >>>> doug- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sat Oct 11 14:16:38 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10F284B0BDA for ; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 14:16:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HBm-fBt7SJ-5 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 14:16:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id D21334B0BE6; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 14:16:36 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 13:17:01 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 13:10:18 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:08:19 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <7uadnXpC9NqFdHHVnZ2dnUVZ_oPinZ2d@giganews.com> <8vidnR9LpoCbUG3VnZ2dnUVZ_srinZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: j68g2000hsf.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.2.209; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kohyp-0005Oh-3C X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-fDNtVraP/3GulJC9OXW/lusRgkbY4U9T4QJYCefWG8F9tHt41emRZoDjq6deCdA56SDhlnPk1FIE+9R!0WLzWm+Jji7rtSEOVC7w0WjgbwFD1w4s1Lo1C/23Ng+51rLX0r9J82L82fM/WWk9V2SyEnDa0Q== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25453 Hi Doug, You: > I did not say the Ten Commandments should be civil law. I said they > are an example of how God's Laws became civil laws. What you said: "Many of our laws today are based on the Ten Commandments yet no all mankind are Jewish or Christian. Wouldn't it be realistic to predict that in the future our civil laws will be based on the Baha'i Revelation?" Your assertion now is very different from what I thought you were saying. It is as though you think murder would not be illegal if Moses had not brought tablets from the mountain, and since Baha'u'llah forbid alcohol to Baha'is soon everyone will equate alcohol with murder. But that is not a topic that interests me, so let's drop this Commandments side discussion. > Do you really think that in the future Baha'i Commonwealth, the New > World Order of Baha'u'llah there will be no civil laws from the Faith > imposed on society? If so can you give me a quote saying this? A quote saying there will be no civil laws from the Baha'i Faith in the future? You mean like a prophecy? It seems to me, if you think that is the case, there should be a quote saying there will be such laws. I don't find quotes saying there will be no Baha'i politicians, or Baha'i murderers, or that all Baha'is will be anything at all, generous, trustworthy. There are not quotes like that. So, since there aren't any quotes saying it, it must be either true or not true, right? So please stop asking me to prove a negative assertion. No one can do it. There is no proof that there is not anything, anywhere at all. > Can you show me a quote to back up your conclusions about reward and > punishment please? Your quote, that you referenced, backs me up. > Generosity is a Scriptural Law? News to me. Can you give me a > quote? "Be generous in prosperity". Look it up. > So wouldn't having human > faults be a form of self punishment once we know we are to acquire > virtues? You mean the failure to develop one's self, to acquire virtues, is itself a punishment? If that is what you are talking about as punishment then I would agree ... not that it is a punishment, but that is what happens. If one does not make the effort to improve one's self, one does not improve. I say that if one makes the effort, one improves: a reward. > We are discussing the > harm of disobedience to the Baha'i law of prohibition of alcohol and > in spite of direct references to the law from the Writings you > disagree. We are discussing Baha'i intolerance to non-Baha'is who drink occassional alcoholic beverages. > So show me an intolerant thing I said in the this new message and I > will explain it more clearly. Thank God I don't find any new intolerance in this message. We are still dealing with your intolerance to non-Baha'i who drink alcohol occassionally as the primary intolerance I see in you today. --Kent On Oct 11, 11:20=A0am, Douglas McAdam wrote: > On Oct 11, 2008, at 8:03 AM, compx2 wrote: > > > Hi Doug, > > >> I used the Ten Commandments as an example... > > > Yes, you did, when you were talking about the punishment in store for > > Paul who is a non-Baha'i who enjoys drinking a single alcoholic > > beverage occassionally. =A0I say there is no such punishment, then you > > brought up the Ten Commandments as examples of God's Law that should > > be universal civil law as well. > > Kent- > I did not say the Ten Commandments should be civil law. =A0I said they =A0 > are an example of how God's Laws became civil laws. =A0And they incur =A0 > punishment either by society or self punishment depending on =A0 > circumstances and conditions. =A0Obviously the laws such as stealing, =A0 > murder, and the like are punishable by civil law whereas other laws, =A0 > if violated in a Christian culture by non Christians might result in =A0 > prejudice towards them. =A0What happens to a person in Court who refuses =A0 > to swear to tell the truth and the whole truth "so help you God" on =A0 > the bible? =A0Does that person then get treated with the same justice =A0 > they should? > > Do you really think that in the future Baha'i Commonwealth, the New =A0 > World Order of Baha'u'llah there will be no civil laws from the Faith =A0 > imposed on society? =A0If so can you give me a quote saying this? > > > > > So I went through them, and half of the Ten Commandments are not civil > > law nearly anywhere on earth. =A0So they are not a good example of God' s > > Law that is now civil law. > > But some were made civil laws, weren't they. =A0The ones that weren't =A0 > were obviously not something society could enact as civil law but in =A0 > any case violation of them causes problems. > > > > > Unless you are dropping that assertion we should go on talking about > > the other things you have neglected to answer, such as men's hair > > length, daily prayer, and dowrys. =A0How will the Baha'i Police enforce > > such laws? > > Abdu'l-Baha has already answered this Kent and I would think you know =A0 > it. =A0I have a seven page document of his explanations of laws, reward =A0 > and punishment etc. and I have posted a few before. > > > > >> See God Passes > >> By regarding the twin pillars of Justice. > > > I think you are well aware that I have read the Writings and know well > > what is said. =A0That is why I said: "there is reward, but no > > punishment, except in extreme cases." =A0The sources you refer to back > > me up in that. > > Can you show me a quote to back up your conclusions about reward and =A0 > punishment please? > > > > > If you cannot come up with a single specific question about my > > assertion, I suggest you read a bit more on the subject of God's > > justice and mercy. =A0I believe you will find I am right about this. > > >> Show me one example of a Scriptural law of God that when broken will > >> not produce a punishment, either self-inflicted or inflicted by =A0 > >> society. > > > Generousity. =A0Many places all scripture demands that we should "be > > generous". =A0What is the specific punishment for not being generous? > > Daily prayer? =A0Hair length? =A0Dowry? > > Generosity is a Scriptural Law? =A0News to me. =A0Can you give me a =A0 > quote? =A0 Generosity is a virtue and our purpose is to acquire =A0 > virtues. =A0The Writings tell us that if we do not acquire a virtue the =A0 > void will be filled with a human fault. =A0So wouldn't having human =A0 > faults be a form of self punishment once we know we are to acquire =A0 > virtues? > > > > > Just to repeat myself, there are rewards for such actions, but no > > punishment for those who do not perform those actions. > > You have not produced any quotes from the Writings to show this =A0to me. > > > > >> So now you, preaching about tolerance to Baha'is, are judging me. > > > I can show you where you have said those things. =A0No judgment, it is a > > matter of believing that you mean what you say, which is becoming more > > and more difficult, by the way. > > No, you can only show me how you misunderstand what I say. =A0This is =A0 > why I keep insisting that we follow the guidelines of consultation and =A0 > avoid personal judgments. > > > > >> I have given you > >> quotes from the Writings in every case that I commented upon but you > >> have produced none to back up your assertions. > > > You mean a general reference to GPB, "reward and punishment"? =A0I > > didn't say there is no punishment, I did not deny your reference to > > the "Writings". =A0I just said you are misguided in a number of ways in > > your intepretation of the writings. > > So you are guided and I am misguided? =A0Who is doing the guiding? =A0I =A0 > thought we are all entitled to our own interpretation of the Writings =A0 > but that we are not to impose these on others. =A0We are discussing the =A0 > harm of disobedience to the Baha'i law of prohibition of alcohol and =A0 > in spite of direct references to the law from the Writings you =A0 > disagree. =A0That is not my problem Kent but you can easily settle this =A0 > by writing to the House of Justice or consulting with an ABM or =A0 > Counselor. > > > > >> If you don't agree then produce references from objective science and > >> true religion such as the Baha'i Writings. > > > You and I are so far apart in our views it would be futile. =A0But > > please note that even Mike's source for carcinogenic cancer recommends > > moderate alcohol consumption for cardio health in those who are > > accustomed to such. > > As I said, why not produce quotes from true science and true religion =A0 > so we can be objective here? =A0 However it may be futile because so far =A0 > you argue with both types of references. > > > > > And if you would like me to back up your assertions of intolerance to > > non-Baha'i that will be easy, the record is clear. =A0But I doubt it > > would be interesting to anyone, and might even be against the policies > > here just to drudge up the things you have been saying the past few > > years. > > What record is clear? =A0You have no idea about my relationships with =A0 > non-Baha'is. =A0This is another veiled attempt to discredit my character =A0 > and I cannot for the life of me see how this relates to Baha'i =A0 > consultation. > > > > > I prefer to focus on the intolerant things you say with each new > > message instead. > > So show me an intolerant thing I said in the this new message and I =A0 > will explain it more clearly. =A0I well know the limitations of emails =A0 > and how people can misunderstand things which is why I would think you =A0 > would ask questions for clarity if you disagree instead of accusing me =A0 > to be intolerant. > > God bless, > doug > > > > > > > --Kent From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sat Oct 11 14:16:43 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A418D4B0BE6 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 14:16:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ofHBODgiuqxD for ; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 14:16:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id D20A14B0C0A; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 14:16:42 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 13:17:09 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 13:59:25 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:59:12 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.2.209; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KoikN-0000nk-AP X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-zzGpDfvceL7BXuoRFen3wpdUqlNkW3TagyASaiXSG1uaWg41VLur2aR/v2uiWk66QkenEFDgjTnAP4X!xEsSqrwkxjr+7ka5b0VYYTMdsEQ4XXgDFkRzfUjx6tZtH3UDfcRm+VnvGC2khHPHN2Bvo9VU8w== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25454 Hi Doug, You: >...if a person is confronted by the > Manifestation and rejects Him then no matter how loving and kind they > may be their acts are useless in the eyes of God. If I thought that quote said what you think it says I would fight tooth and nail against the Baha'i Faith. What in intolerant thought! If this were the Baha'i Faith I would not just reject it, I would fight it with everything in me. God is not spiteful, does not reject people, does not pronounce a life "useless". Such a conception of God is, in my considered opinion, petty, simplistic, foolish. God is better than that. I am a Baha'i and I am offended that some of my co-religionists are this intolerant of their fellow humanity to pronounce that "their understanding" is that God will reject them. --Kent On Oct 11, 10:46=A0am, Douglas McAdam wrote: > Dear Mike- > First of all I or any other Baha'i cannot judge the spirituality of =A0 > another soul. =A0That is God's job. =A0All I have done is produced quotes =A0 > relative to the discussion. =A0However I can offer my understanding of =A0 > that quote, but in the context of other quotes relative to the twin =A0 > duties. =A0 =A0My understanding is that if a person is confronted by the =A0 > Manifestation and rejects Him then no matter how loving and kind they =A0 > may be their acts are useless in the eyes of God. =A0Here is the =A0 > specific portion of the quote relevant to this - > > >> Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained > >> unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though > >> he be the author of every righteous deed. > > That seems pretty clear does it =A0not? > > My personal feeling is that if people were indeed living lives in =A0 > accordance with God's Laws and Teachings then they would readily =A0 > recognize the Manifestation when He appears. =A0History seems to show =A0 > what happened when the previous religion's believers did not recognize =A0 > the new Manifestations. > > I have learned over the years that many souls will reject what I am =A0 > teaching them about the Manifestation for today and His Revelation but =A0 > then after a spell they accept. =A0I think this is =A0due to an ego =A0 > problem, that the soul really accepts but the ego rejects because it =A0 > does want to lose control. =A0I once had a psychologist reject =A0for 15 =A0 > yrs. my attempts to teach him about how the Baha'i Teachings relate to =A0 > addiction therapy and finally he told me he had been wrong because he =A0 > was only seeing things through his academic training and not by taking =A0 > into consideration the Baha'i Writings. =A0So I don't judge souls, I =A0 > simply teach and show them love and understanding. =A0I give them the =A0 > Writings and let them deal with it and I answer questions directly. > > regards, > doug > > On Oct 11, 2008, at 5:03 AM, mike3 wrote: > > > > > On Oct 3, 7:12 pm, Douglas McAdam wrote: > > > >> Here is the quote and there are others- > >> IN THE NAME OF HIM WHO IS THE SUPREME RULEROVER ALL THAT HATH BEEN =A0 > >> AND > > >> ALL THAT IS TO BE > > >> The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition > >> of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His > > >> laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause > >> and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained > >> unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > >> he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who > > =A0 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >> reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent =A0 > >> glory, > > >> to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. > >> These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the > >> other. (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 16) > > > > > > Hmm. Does this therefore mean that even those people who are really > > good in their hearts and have devoted themselves to helping the world > > and > > doing as much good as they can for humanity and everything, but who > > do not recognize God's prophet, have _failed_ and so are "damned" and > > are actually very miserable? Does this mean that in their Afterlife, > > they > > would be lost forever with no hope, despite all that good and stuff > > (esp. > > all the stuff about "no free will in the afterlife" suggesting no way > > to alter > > the course "away" from God that would _appear_ to be set up by > > ignorance > > of the prophet in spite of all the goodness)?- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Oct 12 21:40:55 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B6BE4B0063 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:40:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aCPIwqx0ERpl for ; Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:40:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 934E14B0A12; Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:40:54 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? From: mike3 Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 13:50:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: References: Organization: http://groups.google.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai X-Trace: sv3-qgG+++fghYo0l6DyOB38ltAj15qpjrzpSFHISYgEn8IcMbnXhxBd3dY1SXqe+gEsW3rAIkz9/1rXlUT!TLZ1FT/xnn4XHkukjFhozYyU6GHOgxr4nYHxtieiPwS4CjImquQBuOx5lmwf+BVTTui7vRNIhA== NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:41:26 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 16:50:22 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: s1g2000prg.googlegroups.com; posting-host=70.101.144.125; posting-account=fwSgtAkAAACFnX70ssKwbvm9_oCZVHrx User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.0.3) Gecko/2008092417 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KolPk-0003rM-H9 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-0.302, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 2.30) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 X-Original-Bytes: 7471 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25455 On Oct 11, 8:46=A0am, Douglas McAdam wrote: > Dear Mike- > First of all I or any other Baha'i cannot judge the spirituality of =A0 > another soul. =A0That is God's job. =A0 It wasn't here to ask for a judgment on somebody, I was here to ask about something that seemed unfair, stuff that seemed, well, you know, similar to what those Christian preachers like to preach about. ("you don't believe in JESUS? You're going to BURN! Forever! A good heart is not enough, you're still damned and there is NO ESCAPE!") > All I have done is produced quotes =A0 > relative to the discussion. =A0However I can offer my understanding of =A0 > that quote, but in the context of other quotes relative to the twin =A0 > duties. =A0 =A0My understanding is that if a person is confronted by the =A0 > Manifestation and rejects Him then no matter how loving and kind they =A0 > may be their acts are useless in the eyes of God. =A0 What about where they've never even _heard_ of the messenger? Ever, in their whole life? > Here is the =A0 > specific portion of the quote relevant to this - > > >> Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained > >> unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though > >> he be the author of every righteous deed. > > That seems pretty clear does it =A0not? > So then it would *seem to suggest* that the vast majority of people, who have _not_ achieved that duty, would be lost, no matter how good. That's the thing that I'm hung up on, it doesn't seem right, to condemn 6.494 billion people like that. Because they've never even _heard_ of the Baha'i Faith, Baha'u'llah, etc. That's what doesn't seem fair or right to me, it just doesn't seem right. > My personal feeling is that if people were indeed living lives in =A0 > accordance with God's Laws and Teachings then they would readily =A0 > recognize the Manifestation when He appears. =A0History seems to show =A0 > what happened when the previous religion's believers did not recognize =A0 > the new Manifestations. > > I have learned over the years that many souls will reject what I am =A0 > teaching them about the Manifestation for today and His Revelation but =A0 > then after a spell they accept. =A0I think this is =A0due to an ego =A0 > problem, that the soul really accepts but the ego rejects because it =A0 > does want to lose control. =A0I once had a psychologist reject =A0for 15 =A0 > yrs. my attempts to teach him about how the Baha'i Teachings relate to =A0 > addiction therapy and finally he told me he had been wrong because he =A0 > was only seeing things through his academic training and not by taking =A0 > into consideration the Baha'i Writings. =A0So I don't judge souls, I =A0 > simply teach and show them love and understanding. =A0I give them the =A0 > Writings and let them deal with it and I answer questions directly. > > regards, > doug > > On Oct 11, 2008, at 5:03 AM, mike3 wrote: > > > On Oct 3, 7:12 pm, Douglas McAdam wrote: > > > >> Here is the quote and there are others- > >> IN THE NAME OF HIM WHO IS THE SUPREME RULEROVER ALL THAT HATH BEEN =A0 > >> AND > > >> ALL THAT IS TO BE > > >> The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition > >> of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His > > >> laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause > >> and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained > >> unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > >> he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who > > =A0 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >> reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent =A0 > >> glory, > > >> to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. > >> These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the > >> other. (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 16) > > > > > > Hmm. Does this therefore mean that even those people who are really > > good in their hearts and have devoted themselves to helping the world > > and > > doing as much good as they can for humanity and everything, but who > > do not recognize God's prophet, have _failed_ and so are "damned" and > > are actually very miserable? Does this mean that in their Afterlife, > > they > > would be lost forever with no hope, despite all that good and stuff > > (esp. > > all the stuff about "no free will in the afterlife" suggesting no way > > to alter > > the course "away" from God that would _appear_ to be set up by > > ignorance > > of the prophet in spite of all the goodness)? From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Oct 12 21:41:58 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D1F94B0A12 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:41:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XxD+o4ydWWBy for ; Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:41:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 254A84B0C88; Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:41:57 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:41:58 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 19:58:18 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=S2gsDrrJhP5MfC9g6t5Un+bg2zYWIrjGW36l/qndq81hFnZyf9d998jdzzxpUpm35RCifNRLiPQbq0oF0FpOtmBOXeq3s+egPf+5gpOQtvLrsRbg82eJXNnsoeRuCfGL2/2MZO28yyA8OMr42klLH4oGFRF6vwO/3Ij9N/ZnRuE= ; X-YMail-OSG: IhAWI8MVM1k0wJIZ0JvFp8jyp6PtFraBs6Qdh5iBp8wa1TIt4g8EH4Kxq7z43B5cz9cjMjbHSo9dc.y9RVmc6o0s5iFC3Ht0uwsC7k9qhHY0Ile.BBixzr0ZCBrjsRH7OvbU4hzjJoJQPZfHO_MK5p5Z0ky.soKlHaidV2v7xNv5GMNZqjXqDGS9x5oS X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 19:57:57 -0400 References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <7uadnXpC9NqFdHHVnZ2dnUVZ_oPinZ2d@giganews.com> <8vidnR9LpoCbUG3VnZ2dnUVZ_srinZ2d@giganews.com> X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KooLd-0007LO-3x X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-WLdu+jmhZR4S9DiMe/0fVMJmCXbW/GJkavQ0vJptCnPgX4a/QbM4pJmY100HQZ1CC4peZpXxz+616KC!jHNqPO2rKYxoshCNfH1ovH18/80mH8Ukw8V2/e7pJkdtFZUJTkQU0GJX1SZRNJH0bEHK4LNkRw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25456 On Oct 11, 2008, at 1:08 PM, compx2 wrote: > Hi Doug, > > You: > >> I did not say the Ten Commandments should be civil law. I said they >> are an example of how God's Laws became civil laws. > > What you said: > > "Many of our laws today are based on the Ten Commandments yet no all > mankind are Jewish or Christian. Wouldn't it be realistic to predict > that in the future our civil laws will be based on the Baha'i > Revelation?" > > Your assertion now is very different from what I thought you were > saying. It is as though you think murder would not be illegal if > Moses had not brought tablets from the mountain, and since Baha'u'llah > forbid alcohol to Baha'is soon everyone will equate alcohol with > murder. I'm asking myself how you can come up with these conclusion and assign such things to me when I never said nor meant any such thing. I still say many of our laws today are based on the Ten Commandments but you disagree and so there is nothing I can do about it. But to that I would equate alcohol with murder is simply too ridiculous to respond to. > > > But that is not a topic that interests me, so let's drop this > Commandments side discussion. Agreed > > >> Do you really think that in the future Baha'i Commonwealth, the New >> World Order of Baha'u'llah there will be no civil laws from the Faith >> imposed on society? If so can you give me a quote saying this? > > A quote saying there will be no civil laws from the Baha'i Faith in > the future? You mean like a prophecy? It seems to me, if you think > that is the case, there should be a quote saying there will be such > laws. No I'm not saying I need that kind of a quote, I'm saying that I gave you quotes regarding how in the future will have a Bahai Commonwealth and that would mean we would have civil laws based on Divine Laws revealed by Baha'u'llah and if you disagree then show me quotes to back up your assertions. > > > I don't find quotes saying there will be no Baha'i politicians, or > Baha'i murderers, or that all Baha'is will be anything at all, > generous, trustworthy. There are not quotes like that. So, since > there aren't any quotes saying it, it must be either true or not true, > right? Not that is not right Kent. I'm not asking you to provide those kinds of quotes, and I explained it above. > > > So please stop asking me to prove a negative assertion. No one can do > it. There is no proof that there is not anything, anywhere at all. That is not what I am doing as I explained above. > > >> Can you show me a quote to back up your conclusions about reward and >> punishment please? > > Your quote, that you referenced, backs me up. So we disagree on interpretation. I wonder how other Baha'is would interpret the quotes I offered. > > >> Generosity is a Scriptural Law? News to me. Can you give me a >> quote? > > "Be generous in prosperity". Look it up. I did. It is in Epistle to the Son of the Wolf and it is not a law. It is not in the Aqdas as a Law. Why do you think it is a law? However I could make a case for it to be a sort of law, say like graduated income tax where those who prosper pay a greater share of taxes, but that would be a far stretch. In any case we individuals do not make laws. > > >> So wouldn't having human >> faults be a form of self punishment once we know we are to acquire >> virtues? > > You mean the failure to develop one's self, to acquire virtues, is > itself a punishment? > > If that is what you are talking about as punishment then I would > agree ... not that it is a punishment, but that is what happens. If > one does not make the effort to improve one's self, one does not > improve. I say that if one makes the effort, one improves: a reward. Yes, inherent in the purpose to acquire virtues is a punishment to the individual for failure which will be manifested in a human fault. > > >> We are discussing the >> harm of disobedience to the Baha'i law of prohibition of alcohol and >> in spite of direct references to the law from the Writings you >> disagree. > > We are discussing Baha'i intolerance to non-Baha'is who drink > occassional alcoholic beverages. As I said, I am not intolerant to any non-Baha'i who drinks and occasional alcoholic beverage. I am intolerant of the act of drinking when it is prohibited by Bahai Law. I explained this in detail. If a non Bahai asked me what the Baha'i stance on alcohol is I would give him or her the quotes I offered you and Paul. Knowing what I know of the harm of alcohol then my love for a non-Baha'i would be that I would give the truth as I see it. I don't go around telling non - Bahais I disapprove of their drinking casually. I only respond when asked. > > >> So show me an intolerant thing I said in the this new message and I >> will explain it more clearly. > > Thank God I don't find any new intolerance in this message. We are > still dealing with your intolerance to non-Baha'i who drink alcohol > occassionally as the primary intolerance I see in you today. No we are not Kent. We are dealing with your intolerance of me and your misunderstanding of what I am saying and this too is something I do not wish to continue so lets move on. doug > > > --Kent > > > On Oct 11, 11:20 am, Douglas McAdam > wrote: >> On Oct 11, 2008, at 8:03 AM, compx2 wrote: >> >>> Hi Doug, >> >>>> I used the Ten Commandments as an example... >> >>> Yes, you did, when you were talking about the punishment in store >>> for >>> Paul who is a non-Baha'i who enjoys drinking a single alcoholic >>> beverage occassionally. I say there is no such punishment, then you >>> brought up the Ten Commandments as examples of God's Law that should >>> be universal civil law as well. >> >> Kent- >> I did not say the Ten Commandments should be civil law. I said they > >> are an example of how God's Laws became civil laws. And they incur >> punishment either by society or self punishment depending on >> circumstances and conditions. Obviously the laws such as stealing, >> murder, and the like are punishable by civil law whereas other laws, >> if violated in a Christian culture by non Christians might result in >> prejudice towards them. What happens to a person in Court who >> refuses > >> to swear to tell the truth and the whole truth "so help you God" on >> the bible? Does that person then get treated with the same justice >> they should? >> >> Do you really think that in the future Baha'i Commonwealth, the New >> World Order of Baha'u'llah there will be no civil laws from the Faith >> imposed on society? If so can you give me a quote saying this? >> >> >> >>> So I went through them, and half of the Ten Commandments are not >>> civil >>> law nearly anywhere on earth. So they are not a good example of >>> God' > s >>> Law that is now civil law. >> >> But some were made civil laws, weren't they. The ones that weren't >> were obviously not something society could enact as civil law but in >> any case violation of them causes problems. >> >> >> >>> Unless you are dropping that assertion we should go on talking about >>> the other things you have neglected to answer, such as men's hair >>> length, daily prayer, and dowrys. How will the Baha'i Police >>> enforce >>> such laws? >> >> Abdu'l-Baha has already answered this Kent and I would think you know >> it. I have a seven page document of his explanations of laws, reward > >> and punishment etc. and I have posted a few before. >> >> >> >>>> See God Passes >>>> By regarding the twin pillars of Justice. >> >>> I think you are well aware that I have read the Writings and know >>> well >>> what is said. That is why I said: "there is reward, but no >>> punishment, except in extreme cases." The sources you refer to back >>> me up in that. >> >> Can you show me a quote to back up your conclusions about reward and >> punishment please? >> >> >> >>> If you cannot come up with a single specific question about my >>> assertion, I suggest you read a bit more on the subject of God's >>> justice and mercy. I believe you will find I am right about this. >> >>>> Show me one example of a Scriptural law of God that when broken >>>> will >>>> not produce a punishment, either self-inflicted or inflicted by >>>> society. >> >>> Generousity. Many places all scripture demands that we should "be >>> generous". What is the specific punishment for not being generous? >>> Daily prayer? Hair length? Dowry? >> >> Generosity is a Scriptural Law? News to me. Can you give me a >> quote? Generosity is a virtue and our purpose is to acquire >> virtues. The Writings tell us that if we do not acquire a virtue the > >> void will be filled with a human fault. So wouldn't having human >> faults be a form of self punishment once we know we are to acquire >> and > >> avoid personal judgments. >> >> >> >>>> I have given you >>>> quotes from the Writings in every case that I commented upon but >>>> you >>>> have produced none to back up your assertions. >> >>> You mean a general reference to GPB, "reward and punishment"? I >>> didn't say there is no punishment, I did not deny your reference to >>> the "Writings". I just said you are misguided in a number of ways >>> in >>> your intepretation of the writings. >> >> So you are guided and I am misguided? Who is doing the guiding? I > >> thought we are all entitled to our own interpretation of the Writings >> but that we are not to impose these on others. We are discussing the > >> harm of disobedience to the Baha'i law of prohibition of alcohol and >> in spite of direct references to the law from the Writings you >> disagree. That is not my problem Kent but you can easily settle this > >> by writing to the House of Justice or consulting with an ABM or >> Counselor. >> >> >> >>>> If you don't agree then produce references from objective science >>>> and >>>> true religion such as the Baha'i Writings. >> >>> You and I are so far apart in our views it would be futile. But >>> please note that even Mike's source for carcinogenic cancer >>> recommends >>> moderate alcohol consumption for cardio health in those who are >>> accustomed to such. >> >> As I said, why not produce quotes from true science and true religion >> so we can be objective here? However it may be futile because so >> far > >> you argue with both types of references. >> >> >> >>> And if you would like me to back up your assertions of intolerance >>> to >>> non-Baha'i that will be easy, the record is clear. But I doubt it >>> would be interesting to anyone, and might even be against the >>> policies >>> here just to drudge up the things you have been saying the past few >>> years. >> >> What record is clear? You have no idea about my relationships with >> non-Baha'is. This is another veiled attempt to discredit my >> character > >> and I cannot for the life of me see how this relates to Baha'i >> consultation. >> >> >> >>> I prefer to focus on the intolerant things you say with each new >>> message instead. >> >> So show me an intolerant thing I said in the this new message and I >> will explain it more clearly. I well know the limitations of emails > >> and how people can misunderstand things which is why I would think >> you > >> would ask questions for clarity if you disagree instead of accusing >> me > >> to be intolerant. >> >> God bless, >> doug >> >> >> >> >> >>> --Kent > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Oct 12 21:42:08 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2993C4B0C88 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:42:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BOvBaNULYNjb for ; Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:42:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id AC9D04B0C8E; Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:42:07 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:42:16 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 20:06:22 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=4ssOcYd+Ni9M78zLYYHh9xbXeR3f++JXRCb2KHJN2wPhGQD+QRnd6plnqKBZWh6yx9nKpZpjiUz1LkjbzyuDdBwyPT29zbfITAnecx7EzLc4KMUNbmXNNexz/dNOsHUwMJpa4kQgMvq7WSt6Fak0BDJTi1JgHBDe3b5Q84xA6oY= ; X-YMail-OSG: jWViFtMVM1lUe3nH.uAzEOA6uj1DAvNQuBVAavNCPBCcul.C79V54pED73Fk3uxZMMgA83nChDvMc9waqUG_zNl1aHmc96zom2zn43SDI2HFoH_Kf1W8cdjEztrOFo2ZWJ8- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 20:06:05 -0400 References: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-2wzKtSrAFKfojVXjYp7g5+WvwtbcmmlLS3qijuW/2ADBRILA1DmFQM5uSNid+inIvxnfOlCnEGLYYvv!ja3yYle3EYzPZQzURusB2Hrs09tB1GD+2iEvmLdPXqQjcw8hv1rR17K6Zd2ePKztrRN2+ytnAQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 X-Original-Bytes: 4793 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25457 On Oct 11, 2008, at 1:59 PM, compx2 wrote: > You: >> ...if a person is confronted by the >> Manifestation and rejects Him then no matter how loving and kind they >> may be their acts are useless in the eyes of God. > > If I thought that quote said what you think it says I would fight > tooth and nail against the Baha'i Faith. What in intolerant thought! > If this were the Baha'i Faith I would not just reject it, I would > fight it with everything in me. So what does that quote say Kent? It is plain English isn't it. I gave you the sentence several times. Please tell me your interpretation if you disagree. Also keep in mind that I qualified what I said by also saying it is not my job to judge the spiritual condition of a soul it is God's job. I am just offering the quote relevant to statements you make about intolerance. What about a CB who rejects Baha'u'llah and His Faith? Should we shun them or tolerate them? > > > God is not spiteful, does not reject people, does not pronounce a life > "useless". Such a conception of God is, in my considered opinion, > petty, simplistic, foolish. Well there again one could make a strong case from the Word of God about God's revenge etc. However my own belief is that this refers to the fact that inherent in God's Laws are the punishments for violations. So we punish ourselves by disobedience. > > > God is better than that. > > I am a Baha'i and I am offended that some of my co-religionists are > this intolerant of their fellow humanity to pronounce that "their > understanding" is that God will reject them. Could that be because you are misunderstanding your fellow Baha'is? Why do you think your interpretation is authoritative and thus you can judge your fellow Baha'is? This too is another subject that should be dropped in my opinion. God bless, doug > > > --Kent From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Oct 12 21:42:19 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DB854B0C88 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:42:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ml9gXO+AREGD for ; Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:42:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 9AA754B0C99; Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:42:18 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:42:34 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 22:30:49 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: mike3 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 19:30:44 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: q26g2000prq.googlegroups.com; posting-host=70.101.144.162; posting-account=fwSgtAkAAACFnX70ssKwbvm9_oCZVHrx User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.0.3) Gecko/2008092417 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KoqjI-0000W4-3Z X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-0.302, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 2.30) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-stZ3Xsu2x4YKpKDO9oHDtJ6MABJ9s+BCYszojr8bKo7gM0i20Tr9cQHRQs2BzcSXHgLec8v7tONx+Rb!4Q7aQJ21OgRoSeb9fVcrh0s7xI/6c9frEmXmePkZM8rWOkIowg38sOa0Lnt9C0xMvbNRQRZXOA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25458 On Oct 11, 8:46=A0am, Douglas McAdam wrote: > Dear Mike- > First of all I or any other Baha'i cannot judge the spirituality of =A0 > another soul. =A0That is God's job. =A0All I have done is produced quotes =A0 > relative to the discussion. =A0However I can offer my understanding of =A0 > that quote, but in the context of other quotes relative to the twin =A0 > duties. =A0 =A0My understanding is that if a person is confronted by the =A0 > Manifestation and rejects Him then no matter how loving and kind they =A0 > may be their acts are useless in the eyes of God. =A0Here is the =A0 > specific portion of the quote relevant to this - > > >> Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained > >> unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though > >> he be the author of every righteous deed. > > That seems pretty clear does it =A0not? See, and it's this type of stuff that gives me all the confusion, and makes me wonder just exactly how good a path the Baha'i Faith is, vs. other religions or non-religions or whatever. Because to me, on one hand we have this stuff about peace, about wonders and goodness being in the future for all of humanity, something that seems incredible and would be a great thing to have, which makes me more interested in the religion. But then, on the _other_ hand, we have stuff like the above, which doesn't seem to jive. It *seems* to be saying that God would diss or punish quite a bit, someone who devoted their whole life to bettering the world, went through much trouble to try and make things better and make people's lives more good, but yet be either simply ignorant of the messenger due to not hearing about them, or maybe they did hear but they honestly did not understand that who they heard of _was_ the messenger, etc. etc., and because of that, all this good to be utterly reduced to nothing at all in the eyes of God, and seemingly thus put on the same level as someone like Hitler who did the exact opposite of everything they did, who succumbed to dark evil and committed atrocities that would make the vast majority of people sick to the stomach. And also it would suggest 6.494 billion human beings are going to all end up horribly miserable in the realms and universes the afterlife takes place in. ("Burn in hell" as the Christians call it though it probably does not involve literal fire or a specific place called "hell". But great torment, despair, and other very negative things nonetheless, right up there with Hitler, Stalin, Napoleon, Saddam Hussein, Emperor Qin, and so on and so on, despite having worked all their life to help make the world _better_ than that.) That doesn't seem to be like a good God to me, more like a bad God (DysTheism -- literally "bad God" -- which I don't subscribe to either). Of course one cannot say, yes this *will* happen, as that is making a judgment that is impossible (except for God) to make correctly, and so would not be fair, but it is the *drift* that I seem to be getting from the quote. And that is what I am wondering: am I getting the right *drift* or not (i.e. have I properly understood what is really being said by the quote?)? The question is not to ask for someone to judge other people's fate, but to ask whether this disturbing *drift* is indeed "right on the money" or not. Anyway, I have not actually committed to the Baha'i Faith, and still do not know if I want to, and it's things like these that always create more controversy and questions in my mind. Now there are some rules I do not yet grasp the logic of, e.g. the head shaving prohibitions (why exactly is that _bad_ to do?) and hair length prohibitions (for men), but these don't seem to give anywhere near the type of fundamental troubles this stuff I'm discussing here does. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Oct 12 21:42:33 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C7E64B0C99 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:42:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ynQBjOCvB+d6 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:42:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id D39B34B0C96; Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:42:32 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:42:59 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 16:46:54 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=3Hm3k+HZSsluUNIz9UoqNqHX96iIqJ0PoQ0tcWy1NCg=; b=epWrJQMZdIol6pdfh2q0yZV51hYKzd7shqZMxef+9W0g7C9fjiqASI+k+AXLuqb8ao 8OSnyY6qKjLDvL0O6J+2jp1XOda+ejNVJZOrCUi27y3YtYvgmrcVBfO9SsQgaDT2/YPF 9L2o+ZLLr8zhzr0FwyiWJPUrdyXMTZ+7wzXuQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=lrn1KXUKnpC6cncWOalDx8N6R6r1/z5i5TNMbB4b1YXD3N/RUHvU5WZ1BVWwVyB6Ut 2WKh0jP1D41LYJRBVv4DdMTDw+xFPXM4dTodnGFvAp1FluUJ+YxsNrZVAgiDeGfU2zLW KAr0dqRYH5Ccy/AKvhRWbC+N63+SDwHVzy5iw= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 13:46:43 -0700 From: tsuki190 Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kp7pz-00019p-E4 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.499, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, RDNS_NONE 0.10) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-6YGR9Q5QFutSgqqNtHZseB3aodJCy/Y81PT6m4nSLr96VUeFKZ/fgxFd24qcSEap7+YMcORKe0KMsyI!1/OB25GppMNRGX3LPvVACQU3mijDAGGGyk9XvtzjKlpuis2DWs5k04UT3dlyxAm97fnJOaZK4Q== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25459 If someone has never heard of the messenger, then obviously they have not rejected the messenger. QED. I would also personally apply that to people who have heard of the messenger in an ineffective way, e.g. an african native who heard about Jesus from a drunken pedophile missionary accompanying an army of conquerors and rapists. It would be reasonable to reject out of hand anything promoted by such a gang of thugs. Surprisingly some people actually perceived the divine beauty of the messenger even under those conditions! Cheers, Tom > > What about where they've never even _heard_ of the messenger? Ever, > in their whole life? > On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 1:50 PM, mike3 wrote: > On Oct 11, 8:46 am, Douglas McAdam > wrote: >> Dear Mike- >> First of all I or any other Baha'i cannot judge the spirituality of >> another soul. That is God's job. > > It wasn't here to ask for a judgment on somebody, I was here to ask > about > something that seemed unfair, stuff that seemed, well, you know, > similar to > what those Christian preachers like to preach about. ("you don't > believe in > JESUS? You're going to BURN! Forever! A good heart is not enough, > you're > still damned and there is NO ESCAPE!") > >> All I have done is produced quotes >> relative to the discussion. However I can offer my understanding of >> that quote, but in the context of other quotes relative to the twin >> duties. My understanding is that if a person is confronted by the >> Manifestation and rejects Him then no matter how loving and kind they >> may be their acts are useless in the eyes of God. > > What about where they've never even _heard_ of the messenger? Ever, > in their whole life? > >> Here is the >> specific portion of the quote relevant to this - >> >> >> Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained >> >> unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though >> >> he be the author of every righteous deed. >> >> That seems pretty clear does it not? >> > > So then it would *seem to suggest* that the vast majority of people, > who > have _not_ achieved that duty, would be lost, no matter how good. > That's > the thing that I'm hung up on, it doesn't seem right, to condemn > 6.494 billion people like that. Because they've never even _heard_ of > the > Baha'i Faith, Baha'u'llah, etc. That's what doesn't seem fair or right > to me, > it just doesn't seem right. > >> My personal feeling is that if people were indeed living lives in >> accordance with God's Laws and Teachings then they would readily >> recognize the Manifestation when He appears. History seems to show >> what happened when the previous religion's believers did not recognize >> the new Manifestations. >> >> I have learned over the years that many souls will reject what I am >> teaching them about the Manifestation for today and His Revelation but >> then after a spell they accept. I think this is due to an ego >> problem, that the soul really accepts but the ego rejects because it >> does want to lose control. I once had a psychologist reject for 15 >> yrs. my attempts to teach him about how the Baha'i Teachings relate to >> addiction therapy and finally he told me he had been wrong because he >> was only seeing things through his academic training and not by taking >> into consideration the Baha'i Writings. So I don't judge souls, I >> simply teach and show them love and understanding. I give them the >> Writings and let them deal with it and I answer questions directly. >> >> regards, >> doug >> >> On Oct 11, 2008, at 5:03 AM, mike3 wrote: >> >> > On Oct 3, 7:12 pm, Douglas McAdam wrote: >> > >> >> Here is the quote and there are others- >> >> IN THE NAME OF HIM WHO IS THE SUPREME RULEROVER ALL THAT HATH BEEN >> >> AND >> >> >> ALL THAT IS TO BE >> >> >> The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition >> >> of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His >> >> >> laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause >> >> and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained >> >> unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though >> >> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >> >> he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who >> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >> reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent >> >> glory, >> >> >> to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. >> >> These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the >> >> other. (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 16) >> >> > >> >> > Hmm. Does this therefore mean that even those people who are really >> > good in their hearts and have devoted themselves to helping the world >> > and >> > doing as much good as they can for humanity and everything, but who >> > do not recognize God's prophet, have _failed_ and so are "damned" and >> > are actually very miserable? Does this mean that in their Afterlife, >> > they >> > would be lost forever with no hope, despite all that good and stuff >> > (esp. >> > all the stuff about "no free will in the afterlife" suggesting no way >> > to alter >> > the course "away" from God that would _appear_ to be set up by >> > ignorance >> > of the prophet in spite of all the goodness)? > > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Oct 12 21:42:45 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 449504B0C96 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:42:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uNGPUI9siRHn for ; Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:42:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 2EE524B0C99; Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:42:44 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance From: compx2 Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 15:51:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> Organization: http://groups.google.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai X-Trace: sv3-FY2Ley0gKJfoVplXuajoYRsnFs17WySRVICk4WtBd5IPtLjXf0hBbr6i/iwJrir6iQnXl7p/7NgT8/Z!zKZJWV6VUgT1U3hVfrZRA/o7jiIp176SJS4hrJIaKyhXl4ngfnohSOGorT9AqVHDLM+qywjaKw== NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:43:16 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 18:52:50 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: v72g2000hsv.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kp9ns-00015Q-Jl X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 X-Original-Bytes: 7003 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25460 Hi Mike, Actually I have read four, all about the same database, the same results, the same study. If you have others studies please cite them. > There are a multitude of epidemiologic studies that had > originally been mis-read. Okay, name three. > Alcohol has now been > classified as a carcinogen on it's own. I got that, but what I found said at three or more drinks a day. Please show me otherwise. > But if anything, this > is just the door opening on the subject. Is your open mind showing on this? > ...why do you believe that alcohol is > classed as a carcinogen on it's own merrit (without smoking)? What I found came from those with head and neck cancer in people with a long history of three drinks or more a day who did not smoke. But I am willing to consider other studies, if there are any, that say something different. I like to keep an open mind. >I have little doubt that the cost to our society... And what little doubt you have, would that be based on other studies? Ones that talk about cardio-vascular health in moderate drinkers, say, no more than five drinks a week? I don't drink myself, but that doesn't mean I can't be fair to those who do. There is nothing I have seen harmful about a single drink occassionally. I would never do it myself, but I don't think God will strike anyone, Baha'i or non-Baha'i, dead for it. > ...and a co- > carcinogen? The study I read said that those who both drank and smoked had higher incidents of head and neck cancer. --Kent On Oct 11, 9:24=A0am, mikera...@yahoo.com wrote: > >...20+ years of research behind it > >Kind of true. =A0It was a study that took people who had head and neck > >cancer and worked backwards to divine the relationship of the cancer > >to alcohol and cigarette use. So yes, some of the people had been > >tracked for 20 years, but the study was not designed and carried out > >over 20 years. > > You're confused here about all the facts. It's good to read one > study. =A0There are a multitude of epidemiologic studies that had > originally been mis-read. Meaning that back in the day people thought > those workers at the stone cutter quarries were getting cancer because > of the dust. Or that the workers at the body shop were getting cancer > because of the aerosolized plastics. But now a re-reading of those > studies have concluded that a common factor to alot of previously > unrelated cancers is alcohol. People in these jobs tend to be > drinkers. Alcohol as a solvent is already implicated as a co- > carcinogen, hence it's bad effects with smoking. But if anything, this > is just the door opening on the subject. You should read all of > research on this, not just one research paper. Alcohol has now been > classified as a carcinogen on it's own. > > >So from my independent investigation, I find your education to be > >propaganda. =A0Your education work is vastly inferior to mine. =A0I face > >the facts as they are, not as you think they should be. > > So in all of you superior research, why do you believe that alcohol is > classed as a carcinogen on it's own merrit (without smoking)? > > More importantly do you know what carcinogen means, and why not let > those people drinking know this little fact? It's on a pack of > cigarrettes? Why not put a warning on alcohol: contains carcinogen. > > It wasn't but twenty years ago when the smoker's lobby snatched up on > the idea that ciggarrette smoking would protect some elderly people > from neurodegeneration in parkinsons. Suddenly all the old people > should be smoking. What they failed to mention was that if a > comparable person were smoking, he'd be dead a good 10-15 years > earlier from lung cancer. > > =A0The truth about alcohol is muddled with lobbyism, but a fair reading > of the literature can't ignore the deleterious realities associated > with this activity. I have little doubt that the cost to our society > in terms of death, cancer, medical bills, lost talents..etc., far > exceeds any theoretical benefits. > > >Best beloved is justice. =A0Someone might be fair, but it evidently will > >not be you. > > =A0 By your own reckoning, you've read one article? And you're espousing > justice. > > Since you're a fair minded with a superior knowledge of the research > just person: Why is alcohol classified as a carcinogen? and a co- > carcinogen? From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Oct 12 23:25:01 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9D664B0BA7 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 2008 23:25:00 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8-d6lMaR7vEb for ; Sun, 12 Oct 2008 23:24:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 24DD04B0BE6; Sun, 12 Oct 2008 23:24:59 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 22:25:04 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 22:18:20 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:14:18 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <7uadnXpC9NqFdHHVnZ2dnUVZ_oPinZ2d@giganews.com> <8vidnR9LpoCbUG3VnZ2dnUVZ_srinZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: c60g2000hsf.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KpD0g-0005ac-JM X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-5EfeY+IYCwtmm33aKUjmLEn5iF2LEDF+4XQSbWHpNTMczwSDx3RCNqVZUzMy/KO+/0f7EQkKtafg9fg!dmCNwXV2+PingpI25YIIxyxK3PcSKkqK1WlrG9ZpkLwTdyIkDoXFSxam4Xw1rzA4hTwG8f9B5Q== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 X-Original-Bytes: 14848 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25461 Hi Doug, > I > still say many of our laws today are based on the Ten Commandments... Murder was illegal before Moses. That is the point. It seems to me you are saying that civil law is based upon "Thou Shalt Not Kill". If that is your assertion, then one day brecking any of God's Laws will be just as bad as any other, right? Because if not, then what are the important commandments? What are the important laws of God? Your argument just dies. If they aren't all equally important, then what, are they numbered? What number is the law that Baha'is should not drink alcohol? And how will that make it into secular law when fully half of the Ten Commandments did not after almost three thousand years? > I gave > you quotes regarding how in the future will have a Bahai Commonwealth > and that would mean we would have civil laws based on Divine Laws > revealed by Baha'u'llah It would mean that Baha'is rule the commonwealth, but that is all it means. Unless you have a quote saying that the laws of the commonwealth will be based on Divine Law and I missed it. > I wonder how other Baha'is would > interpret the quotes I offered. You think we should vote? >... it is not a law. How is a command not a law? --Kent On Oct 11, 7:57=A0pm, Douglas McAdam wrote: > On Oct 11, 2008, at 1:08 PM, compx2 wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Doug, > > > You: > > >> I did not say the Ten Commandments should be civil law. =A0I said they > >> are an example of how God's Laws became civil laws. > > > What you said: > > > "Many of our laws today are based on =A0the Ten Commandments yet no all > > mankind are Jewish or Christian. =A0 Wouldn't it be realistic to predic t > > that in the future our civil laws =A0will be based on the Baha'i > > Revelation?" > > > Your assertion now is very different from what I thought you were > > saying. =A0It is as though you think murder would not be illegal if > > Moses had not brought tablets from the mountain, and since Baha'u'llah > > forbid alcohol to Baha'is soon everyone will equate alcohol with > > murder. > > I'm asking myself how you can come up with these conclusion and assign =A0 > such things to me when I never =A0said nor meant any such thing. =A0I =A0 > still say many of our laws today are based on the Ten Commandments but =A0 > you disagree and so there is nothing I can do about it. =A0But to that I =A0 > would equate alcohol with murder is simply too ridiculous to respond to. > > > > > But that is not a topic that interests me, so let's drop this > > Commandments side discussion. > > Agreed > > > > >> Do you really think that in the future Baha'i Commonwealth, the New > >> World Order of Baha'u'llah there will be no civil laws from the Faith > >> imposed on society? =A0If so can you give me a quote saying this? > > > A quote saying there will be no civil laws from the Baha'i Faith in > > the future? =A0You mean like a prophecy? =A0It seems to me, if you thin k > > that is the case, there should be a quote saying there will be such > > laws. > > No I'm not saying I need that kind of a quote, I'm saying that I gave =A0 > you quotes regarding how in the future will have a Bahai Commonwealth =A0 > and that would mean we would have civil laws based on Divine Laws =A0 > revealed by Baha'u'llah and if you disagree then show me quotes to =A0 > back up your assertions. > > > > > I don't find quotes saying there will be no Baha'i politicians, or > > Baha'i murderers, or that all Baha'is will be anything at all, > > generous, trustworthy. =A0There are not quotes like that. =A0So, since > > there aren't any quotes saying it, it must be either true or not true, > > right? > > Not that is not right Kent. =A0I'm not asking you to provide those kinds =A0 > of quotes, and I explained it above. > > > > > So please stop asking me to prove a negative assertion. =A0No one can d o > > it. =A0There is no proof that there is not anything, anywhere at all. > > That is not what I am doing as I explained above. > > > > >> Can you show me a quote to back up your conclusions about reward and > >> punishment please? > > > Your quote, that you referenced, backs me up. > > So we disagree on interpretation. =A0I wonder how other Baha'is would =A0 > interpret the quotes I offered. > > > > >> Generosity is a Scriptural Law? =A0News to me. =A0Can you give me a > >> quote? > > > "Be generous in prosperity". =A0Look it up. > > I did. =A0It is in Epistle to the Son of the Wolf and it is not a law. =A0 > It is not in the Aqdas as a Law. =A0Why do you think it is a law? =A0 > However I could make a case for it to be a sort of law, say like =A0 > graduated income tax where those who prosper pay a greater share of =A0 > taxes, but that would be a far stretch. =A0In any case we individuals do =A0 > not make laws. > > > > >> So wouldn't having human > >> faults be a form of self punishment once we know we are to acquire > >> virtues? > > > You mean the failure to develop one's self, to acquire virtues, is > > itself a punishment? > > > If that is what you are talking about as punishment then I would > > agree ... =A0not that it is a punishment, but that is what happens. =A0 If > > one does not make the effort to improve one's self, one does not > > improve. =A0I say that if one makes the effort, one improves: a reward. > > Yes, inherent in the purpose to acquire virtues is a punishment to the =A0 > individual for failure which will be manifested in a human fault. > > > > >> We are discussing the > >> harm of disobedience to the Baha'i law of prohibition of alcohol and > >> in spite of direct references to the law from the Writings you > >> disagree. > > > We are discussing Baha'i intolerance to non-Baha'is who drink > > occassional alcoholic beverages. > > As I said, I am not intolerant to any non-Baha'i who drinks and =A0 > occasional alcoholic beverage. I am intolerant of the act of drinking =A0 > when it is prohibited by Bahai Law. =A0I explained this in detail. =A0If a =A0 > non Bahai asked me what the Baha'i stance on alcohol is I would give =A0 > him or her the quotes I offered you and Paul. =A0Knowing what I know of =A0 > the harm of alcohol then my love for a non-Baha'i would be that I =A0 > would give the truth as I see it. =A0I don't go around telling non - > Bahais I disapprove of their drinking casually. =A0I only respond when =A0 > asked. > > > > >> So show me an intolerant thing I said in the this new message and I > >> will explain it more clearly. > > > Thank God I don't find any new intolerance in this message. =A0We are > > still dealing with your intolerance to non-Baha'i who drink alcohol > > occassionally as the primary intolerance I see in you today. > > No we are not Kent. =A0We are dealing with your intolerance of me and =A0 > your misunderstanding of what I am saying and this too is something I =A0 > do not wish to continue so lets move on. > > doug > > > > > > > --Kent > > > On Oct 11, 11:20 am, Douglas McAdam > > wrote: > >> On Oct 11, 2008, at 8:03 AM, compx2 wrote: > > >>> Hi Doug, > > >>>> I used the Ten Commandments as an example... > > >>> Yes, you did, when you were talking about the punishment in store =A0 > >>> for > >>> Paul who is a non-Baha'i who enjoys drinking a single alcoholic > >>> beverage occassionally. =A0I say there is no such punishment, then yo u > >>> brought up the Ten Commandments as examples of God's Law that should > >>> be universal civil law as well. > > >> Kent- > >> I did not say the Ten Commandments should be civil law. =A0I said they > > >> are an example of how God's Laws became civil laws. =A0And they incur > >> punishment either by society or self punishment depending on > >> circumstances and conditions. =A0Obviously the laws such as stealing, > >> murder, and the like are punishable by civil law whereas other laws, > >> if violated in a Christian culture by non Christians might result in > >> prejudice towards them. =A0What happens to a person in Court who =A0 > >> refuses > > >> to swear to tell the truth and the whole truth "so help you God" on > >> the bible? =A0Does that person then get treated with the same justice > >> they should? > > >> Do you really think that in the future Baha'i Commonwealth, the New > >> World Order of Baha'u'llah there will be no civil laws from the Faith > >> imposed on society? =A0If so can you give me a quote saying this? > > >>> So I went through them, and half of the Ten Commandments are not =A0 > >>> civil > >>> law nearly anywhere on earth. =A0So they are not a good example of =A0 > >>> God' > > s > >>> Law that is now civil law. > > >> But some were made civil laws, weren't they. =A0The ones that weren't > >> were obviously not something society could enact as civil law but in > >> any case violation of them causes problems. > > >>> Unless you are dropping that assertion we should go on talking about > >>> the other things you have neglected to answer, such as men's hair > >>> length, daily prayer, and dowrys. =A0How will the Baha'i Police =A0 > >>> enforce > >>> such laws? > > >> Abdu'l-Baha has already answered this Kent and I would think you know > >> it. =A0I have a seven page document of his explanations of laws, rewar d > > >> and punishment etc. and I have posted a few before. > > >>>> See God Passes > >>>> By regarding the twin pillars of Justice. > > >>> I think you are well aware that I have read the Writings and know =A0 > >>> well > >>> what is said. =A0That is why I said: "there is reward, but no > >>> punishment, except in extreme cases." =A0The sources you refer to bac k > >>> me up in that. > > >> Can you show me a quote to back up your conclusions about reward and > >> punishment please? > > >>> If you cannot come up with a single specific question about my > >>> assertion, I suggest you read a bit more on the subject of God's > >>> justice and mercy. =A0I believe you will find I am right about this. > > >>>> Show me one example of a Scriptural law of God that when broken =A0 > >>>> will > >>>> not produce a punishment, either self-inflicted or inflicted by > >>>> society. > > >>> Generousity. =A0Many places all scripture demands that we should "be > >>> generous". =A0What is the specific punishment for not being generous? > >>> Daily prayer? =A0Hair length? =A0Dowry? > > >> Generosity is a Scriptural Law? =A0News to me. =A0Can you give me a > >> quote? =A0 Generosity is a virtue and our purpose is to acquire > >> virtues. =A0The Writings tell us that if we do not acquire a virtue th e > > >> void will be filled with a human fault. =A0So wouldn't having human > >> faults be a form of self punishment once we know we are to acquire > >> and > > >> avoid personal judgments. > > >>>> I have given you > >>>> quotes from the Writings in every case that I commented upon but =A0 > >>>> you > >>>> have produced none to back up your assertions. > > >>> You mean a general reference to GPB, "reward and punishment"? =A0I > >>> didn't say there is no punishment, I did not deny your reference to > >>> the "Writings". =A0I just said you are misguided in a number of ways =A0 > >>> in > >>> your intepretation of the writings. > > >> So you are guided and I am misguided? =A0Who is doing the guiding? =A0 I > > >> thought we are all entitled to our own interpretation of the Writings > >> but that we are not to impose these on others. =A0We are discussing th e > > >> harm of disobedience to the Baha'i law of prohibition of alcohol and > >> in spite of direct references to the law from the Writings you > >> disagree. =A0That is not my problem Kent but you can easily settle thi s > > >> by writing to the House of Justice or consulting with an ABM or > >> Counselor. > > >>>> If you don't agree then produce references from objective science =A0 > >>>> and > >>>> true religion such as the Baha'i Writings.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -... > > read more =BB From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Oct 12 23:25:05 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 625CA4B0BA7 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 2008 23:25:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q6nlHe8ztxvE for ; Sun, 12 Oct 2008 23:25:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 814DE4B0C60; Sun, 12 Oct 2008 23:25:04 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 22:25:14 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 22:38:44 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:38:35 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: v53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KpDKT-0007vU-HS X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-gfBLUUiAErEessfGb4irNGS7FLXwcpRsm1hOiksP1lhZH9a/z9cSjcsdeffpjAyy6vZbfSkUOqA4yJH!3FRVWK+k5Vx3IR9IUbF/z74U3zJo6XfwmyQoPaUMIZXbOOMIDnhXs5kl0aAy3kgWrrV0XvGehw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25462 Hi Doug, > So what does that quote say Kent? .... recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good... That is a far cry from Doug: " ...if a person is confronted by the Manifestation and rejects Him then no matter how loving and kind they may be their acts are useless in the eyes of God. " It is my duty, my first duty, to recognize God on earth. If the Baha'i Faith keeps moving in this totalitarian, intolerant, whimsical direction it will not represent much about God at all anymore. It fails in many ways to manifest God on earth now. But that does not absolve anyone, especially not me, from my duty to find Him and recognize His power and devote myself to it. It is not something we do once and are done with it. It is a constant struggle to find God wherever you are, whatever you are doing. It is everyone's duty all the time. It has nothing to do with the name "Baha'u'llah" or "Baha'i", it is God's Manifestation, His Existence, His Being on earth. That is the responsibility, the duty I have as a Baha'i, and if I had to say so, your intolerance is telling of the fact that you have missed that Mark. Of course it is not my job to judge. > What about a CB who rejects Baha'u'llah and His > Faith? Working against a group who sincerely believes they have humanity's best interest at heart, a group like the Baha'is, is another indication that the person has missed God and His Signs and His Attributes on earth. > Should we shun them or tolerate them? We should obey the institutions of the Faith if we want to remain Baha'is. But should the Baha'i Faith become stacked with intolerant slime buckets we will be on our own again, like we were before the Baha'i Revelation. At some future point beyond 1000 years all of the good servants of God will leave the Baha'i Faith. But no matter what religion we belong to we are never absolved of that constant, all important duty to God. > Why do you think your interpretation is authoritative and thus you can > judge your fellow Baha'is? I didn't say my interpretation was authoritative, I said yours was intolerant. Further that opinion you expressed, I would be ashamed to try to defend it in polite company. > This too is another subject that should be dropped in my opinion. Apparently you are ashamed of it as well. --Kent On Oct 11, 8:06=A0pm, Douglas McAdam wrote: > On Oct 11, 2008, at 1:59 PM, compx2 wrote: > > > You: > >> ...if a person is confronted by the > >> Manifestation and rejects Him then no matter how loving and kind they > >> may be their acts are useless in the eyes of God. > > > If I thought that quote said what you think it says I would fight > > tooth and nail against the Baha'i Faith. =A0What in intolerant thought! > > If this were the Baha'i Faith I would not just reject it, I would > > fight it with everything in me. > > So what does that quote say Kent? =A0It is plain English isn't it. =A0I =A0 > gave you the sentence several times. =A0 Please tell me your =A0 > interpretation if you disagree. > Also keep in mind that I qualified what I said by also saying it is =A0 > not my job to judge the spiritual condition of a soul it is God's =A0 > job. =A0I am just offering the quote relevant to statements you make =A0 > about intolerance. =A0What about a CB =A0who rejects Baha'u'llah and His =A0 > Faith? =A0Should we shun them or tolerate them? > > > > > God is not spiteful, does not reject people, does not pronounce a life > > "useless". =A0Such a conception of God is, in my considered opinion, > > petty, simplistic, foolish. > > Well there again one could make a strong case =A0from the Word of God =A0 > about God's revenge etc. =A0However my own belief is that this refers to =A0 > the fact that inherent in God's Laws are the punishments for =A0 > violations. =A0So we punish ourselves by disobedience. > > > > > God is better than that. > > > I am a Baha'i and I am offended that some of my co-religionists are > > this intolerant of their fellow humanity to pronounce that "their > > understanding" is that God will reject them. > > Could that be because you are misunderstanding your fellow Baha'is? > Why do you think your interpretation is authoritative and thus you can =A0 > judge your fellow Baha'is? > > This too is another subject that should be dropped in my opinion. > > God bless, > doug > > > > > > > --Kent- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Oct 12 23:25:10 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BB444B0C64 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 2008 23:25:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f81GPkHPkuIf for ; Sun, 12 Oct 2008 23:25:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 8ACA74B0C60; Sun, 12 Oct 2008 23:25:09 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 22:25:23 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 22:53:35 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: m74g2000hsh.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KpDYq-0000Oy-1W X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: <2e6dnUa6DKc-Im_VnZ2dnUVZ_rTinZ2d@giganews.com> X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-7lMEA6RcdlUZUmrehJypG23xGEYSFqzes6SNSnVp7QGt4j9pcuibxmrUz5hxu+7XJj19UmA+3mABTZh!xOgzdIQqp5TFLMUGezAP3ryM3kwDMzg1CJ7KVazWd3BVh12peox3KDtf/WHoHnYnlnD9lTI97A== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 X-Original-Bytes: 8630 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25463 Hi Mike, I know what you mean. I grew up Baha'i and the form the Faith often took made me rebel and, golly, I still hate a lot of what Baha'is say about the Baha'i Faith I love. I disagree with just about everything Doug says, and he seems to represent the norm. I am the fringes, but the vocal fringes. I don't care what any other Baha'i says, I am commanded by God to investigate independently. If what Doug says sounds intolerant to you, if when he reads that verse it means to him "believe in Baha'u'llah or you are lost" well, don't take his word for it. What does it say to you? I had to start from scratch myself. I knew it all when I was 12, and I could argue against the intolerance and silly laws with the best of them until I lost interest entirely around age 15 or so. But when I saw all the other spiritual ideas floating around I realized, around age 30 or so, that the Baha'i Faith deserved another look. I just started looking at the Writings of Baha'u'llah and did not assume that when He said "God" He meant "Me". What He meant was what He said. In my opinion "The religion of God" is not necessarily the Baha'i Faith. We can but hope. Anyway, the laws, some of the, are just silly. I look upon it like training my dog. A dog who obeys and does tricks is admired, while a wild dog is shot. Sometimes discipline is good for discipline's own sake. And the hair thing has been specifically un-instituted. Hair length on men is not institutionally sanctioned according to the Universal House of Justice, though I try to follow the law anyway. I don't really know those guys that well, you know? --Kent On Oct 11, 10:30=A0pm, mike3 wrote: > On Oct 11, 8:46=A0am, Douglas McAdam > wrote: > > > > > Dear Mike- > > First of all I or any other Baha'i cannot judge the spirituality of =A0 > > another soul. =A0That is God's job. =A0All I have done is produced quot es > =A0=A0 > > relative to the discussion. =A0However I can offer my understanding of > =A0 > > that quote, but in the context of other quotes relative to the twin =A0 > > duties. =A0 =A0My understanding is that if a person is confronted by th e > =A0 > > Manifestation and rejects Him then no matter how loving and kind they =A0 > > may be their acts are useless in the eyes of God. =A0Here is the =A0 > > specific portion of the quote relevant to this - > > > >> Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained > > >> unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, thoug h > > >> he be the author of every righteous deed. > > > That seems pretty clear does it =A0not? > > > > See, and it's this type of stuff that gives me all the confusion, and > makes > me wonder just exactly how good a path the Baha'i Faith is, vs. other > religions or non-religions or whatever. > > Because to me, on one hand we have this stuff about peace, about > wonders > and goodness being in the future for all of humanity, something that > seems > incredible and would be a great thing to have, which makes me more > interested > in the religion. > > But then, on the _other_ hand, we have stuff like the above, which > doesn't > seem to jive. It *seems* to be saying that God would diss or punish > quite > a bit, someone who devoted their whole life to bettering the world, > went > through much trouble to try and make things better and make people's > lives > more good, but yet be either simply ignorant of the messenger due to > not > hearing about them, or maybe they did hear but they honestly did not > understand that who they heard of _was_ the messenger, etc. etc., and > because of that, all this good to be utterly reduced to nothing at all > in the > eyes of God, and seemingly thus put on the same level as someone like > Hitler who did the exact opposite of everything they did, who > succumbed to > dark evil and committed atrocities that would make the vast majority > of > people sick to the stomach. And also it would suggest 6.494 billion > human > beings are going to all end up horribly miserable in the realms and > universes > the afterlife takes place in. ("Burn in hell" as the Christians call > it though it > probably does not involve literal fire or a specific place called > "hell". But great > torment, despair, and other very negative things nonetheless, right up > there > with Hitler, Stalin, Napoleon, Saddam Hussein, Emperor Qin, and so on > and > so on, despite having worked all their life to help make the world > _better_ than > that.) That doesn't seem to be like a good God to me, more like a bad > God > (DysTheism -- literally "bad God" -- which I don't subscribe to > either). > > Of course one cannot say, yes this *will* happen, as that is making a > judgment > that is impossible (except for God) to make correctly, and so would > not be > fair, but it is the *drift* that I seem to be getting from the quote. > And that is > what I am wondering: am I getting the right *drift* or not (i.e. have > I properly > understood what is really being said by the quote?)? The question is > not > to ask for someone to judge other people's fate, but to ask whether > this > disturbing *drift* is indeed "right on the money" or not. > > Anyway, I have not actually committed to the Baha'i Faith, and still > do not > know if I want to, and it's things like these that always create more > controversy > and questions in my mind. Now there are some rules I do not yet grasp > the > logic of, e.g. the head shaving prohibitions (why exactly is that > _bad_ to do?) > and hair length prohibitions (for men), but these don't seem to give > anywhere > near the type of fundamental troubles this stuff I'm discussing here > does.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Oct 12 23:25:17 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33ED64B0C60 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 2008 23:25:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o+gxXIqunKqQ for ; Sun, 12 Oct 2008 23:25:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 53F964B0C64; Sun, 12 Oct 2008 23:25:16 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 22:25:34 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 23:06:10 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Reply-To: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" From: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai References: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-N1h4TwXAGdM59xdvl7OxSwILJCzz0cUHi1tAheSGY8Xxen7XAYJnQ3RqypWN4/LZVLZrm+8BtU3jKx1!UQyNOb/4gWJ3qV7RMYvVXWpvGAiVjytMYHBU/GzXjewjBSAyYYhgmugurZ6PKWsJugMU0yQ+pw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25464 talk.religion.bahai:118693 alt.religion.bahai:21161 "Enty Ell" wrote in message news:FrqdnfZX-5y3F3fVnZ2dnUVZ_vGdnZ2d@giganews.com... > "divers" - archaic adjective meaning many and different! > > Also a plural noun in modern use. > > Cheers > > Mike Unless you are artistically representing a specifically historical context, using archaic terms in place of modern terms is incorrect, especially when the archaic term refers in modern usage to something else. This is not a matter of "who says", but of how many understand what you are trying to say at 1200wpm or better. I've made this mistake myself, often enough to know it is an error. Also, I doubt that using "divers" as a adjective would pass peer review, and this also makes it a bad example of English usage. Using little known words such as "eschew", when a synonym (eg. "avoid") exists in standard English (after Ogden), is just obfuscation. Obfuscation is bad English because it is the degree of ambiguity inherent in uncertain definitions that ultimately limits the magnitude of grammatical structure comprehensible to the reader. That last sentence of mine was a mouthful despite the relatively simple structure. Notice how the pun on "uncertain definitions" (IE uncertain in general or to the reader?) as well as the uncommon mix of terms, "magnitude", "structure", and "comprehensible" really slow down comprehension. This is why the unnecessary use of archaic terms is not as meaningful. Take a look at: http://speed-reading-comprehension.com/grade/index.shtml for a demonstration of how archaic language can rob expression of its meaning. ____________________________________________________________ Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the number@timothycasey.info to email. Philosophical Essays: http://timothycasey.info Speed Reading: http://speed-reading-comprehension.com Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security. Science & Geology: http://geologist-1011.com; http://geologist-1011.net Technical & Web Design: http://web-design-1011.com -- GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer today! From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Mon Oct 13 02:33:43 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E491F4B0B86 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 2008 02:33:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6GuFikgVCT9W for ; Mon, 13 Oct 2008 02:33:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 8F90B4B0C02; Mon, 13 Oct 2008 02:33:41 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 01:34:19 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 00:07:08 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Reply-To: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" From: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai References: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 15:06:46 +1000 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KpEhx-00051f-0C X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-ESVc9LAczhO2b1FoxPiF92Wk4jJ7yT1eeNbLJ6A1PTWE8sSoAj5BURd8xRrKpE8KbpbkajqKbqj7l5i!5erXCGuKK8W9mARSKBNE+RiOAq02D/3hiB3om6JTXGgvxpRWcTrNil/YyT0sN0lhn8oKSQCIwg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118694 soc.religion.bahai:25465 alt.religion.bahai:21162 "Douglas McAdam" wrote in message news:rYidnWMNluDJF3fVnZ2dnUVZ_t_inZ2d@giganews.com... > Hi Tim and Kent- Hi Doug and Kent > I am wondering about something. > My understanding from the Writings and from what I have read from > those scholars who have fluency in the original source languages say > that the Manifestation has essential infallibility and He has > conferred infallibility upon the Master who in turn conferred > infallibility upon the Guardian and House of Justice. The Beloved > Master gave us some knowledge about all this in several places. He > explained essential infallibility and how certain holy souls are > capable of acquiring this condition of conferred infallibility and are > not subject to error. The argument you mention that has happened on > discussions appeared to be about how the Master, Guardian and House of > Justice are not inerrant but that the original word for infallibility > actually meant "protection" or "sinlessness" I think. Then why not translate it as sinless, protected, or otherwise. Why use infallible if infallible is not intended? The thing that I find most obnoxious about psychology literature is the tendency to arbitrarily redefine words from the English language when existing vocabulary can be used more effectively. > What I would like to know is what is the original word for "essential" > and what is the original word for "infallibility". > I'm somewhat confused by all this and also wondered about how English > is translated back into the original sources languages. For example > how is the word infallible in relation to the Master, Guardian and > House of Justice translated back into Arabic or Persian? If it does not correctly tranlslate back to the Arabic or Persian for "infallible" then I think that the translation was wrong to begin with. > It strikes me strange that we can attribute total essential > infallibility to the Manifestation who is without error and then when > He appoints the Master and confers infallibility upon him that some > will attribute an error to the Master or the Guardian. To me that > would mean the Manifestation (God speaking to us) made an error in > conferring infallibility upon the Master,etc. Exactly. A contradiction of conferred infallibility refutes the essential infallibility of the source by which the conferred infallibility was conferred in the first place. > We are fallible and we then judge the Central Figures and that does > not seem to me to be reasonable nor spiritual. May I point out that seeking closure is only described by the use of the term, "judging" in the context of Myer-Briggs Type Index. Elsewhere, the term is much more specific. With this in mind, is judging the logic of the central figures really judging the central figures themselves? I believe that it is up to the central figures to prove themselves; whereby their logic, their philosophical integrity, and their factual accuracy are subject to intense scrutiny. I would also add accountability to that list - but I suspect that accountability is not compatible with infallibility. > Also Kent, where in the Writings, either in the source language or in > any other language is the Manifestation referred to as "She"? I know > that God is genderless but yet if the Manifestation said "He" then who > are we to change it? [SNIP] Did the manifestation apply the masculine gender to God? Or did Effendi simply apply the default gender used in English? This is a question of language that goes beyond default genders and the differences in Persian and English in that what universally defines the male gender is the inability to create or conceive life. For example, the correct gender for organisms that reproduce asexually is female. Therefore I would expect the correct gender for the Creator of life is female, as a matter of definition and out of recognition of the role of Creator. That the profound paradox inherent in the metaphor of a solitary male Creator is not specifically addressed by any of His messengers (with the possible exception of Hermes/Mercury/Idris/Enoch - see Libellvs I:12) suggests that the masculinity of God is asserted in ignorance of its implications. The paradox or koan, exists in a state of non-existence that is only possible in the cognitively dissonant imagination of a sentient being. In other words, if God simultaneously exists and does not exist, as inferred from the assertion of Divine masculinity, this speaks to localisation and dependency for the simplest explanation. The term, "idol" comes to mind. If I remember correctly, the original gender of God was female, and it was changed, illogically in my view, just after the flooding of the Black Sea about 7500 years ago. However, given that what ultimately separates the masculine from the feminine is the ability to create or conceive life, then the correct pronoun for God would have to be in the feminine, unless God is attributed with a partner who bore life on His behalf... ...adding all sorts of new spice to those "immaculate conception" and "virgin birth" metaphors so popular in some cultures and also adding many more implications about who exactly were engaging in idolatry and who were not. ____________________________________________________________ Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the number@timothycasey.info to email. Philosophical Essays: http://timothycasey.info Speed Reading: http://speed-reading-comprehension.com Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security. Science & Geology: http://geologist-1011.com; http://geologist-1011.net Technical & Web Design: http://web-design-1011.com -- GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer today! From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Mon Oct 13 02:33:46 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0CC34B0C34 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 2008 02:33:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ELNWNYKGKIP1 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 2008 02:33:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id D9FF64B0C60; Mon, 13 Oct 2008 02:33:45 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 01:34:27 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 00:31:34 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Reply-To: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" From: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 15:30:57 +1000 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KpF5f-0006qA-AQ X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-FZgq8PsxMNLkc31VD4uLIyvPqPbAT7aTCFIwthAGf1U2zqT6z55gL6C/pYHfEDYrgaeYlsRO7of8xIO!RTOQ1rtjCc8q9XZEuA7DGTTbQu46wAnbuYOD2IYtZiaLYR34VawtluyLccqp9IhZJsAjbZSsIQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118695 soc.religion.bahai:25466 alt.religion.bahai:21163 wrote in message news:rLCdnTQW55QgF3fVnZ2dnUVZ_tfinZ2d@giganews.com... [SNIP] > > I'll refer you to my post in 'God's side.' But alcohol is officially > classed as a carcinogen. That's not a Baha'i making this up, it's the > science of our times. And I suggest you familiarize yourself with it > before pairing Doug with a mullah. [SNIP] When was alcohol reclassified as a Schedule 7 poison? A government or intergovernment classification is not science. Some governments classify carbon dioxide as a pollutant, when it is a scientific fact that carbon dioxide is an aerial fertiliser and not a pollutant. (See http://climate.geologist-1011.net for more detail). < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_and_cancer > 'The U.S. National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA) reports that "Although there is no evidence that alcohol itself is a carcinogen, alcohol may act as a cocarcinogen by enhancing the carcinogenic effects of other chemicals. For example, studies indicate that alcohol enhances tobacco's ability to stimulate tumor formation in rats.[6] In humans, the risk for mouth, tracheal, and esophageal cancer is 35 times greater for people who both smoke and drink than for people who neither smoke nor drink,[7] implying a cocarcinogenic interaction between alcohol and tobacco-related carcinogens."[3]' 'The NIAAA states that "Although epidemiologic studies have found a clear association between alcohol consumption and development of certain types of cancer, study findings are often inconsistent and may vary by country and by type of cancer."[3]' What this means is that there is still some debate as to whether alcohol is carcinogenic or affects something else that is. Arguably, so too is the benzol peroxide in pimple cream simply because it is an aromatic chemical (IE containing one or more conjugated rings of unsaturated bonds) - and aromatic chemicals are generally suspected carcinogens just like alcohols and aldehydes. It's not the substance but the abuse that is problematic ____________________________________________________________ Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the number@timothycasey.info to email. Philosophical Essays: http://timothycasey.info Speed Reading: http://speed-reading-comprehension.com Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security. Science & Geology: http://geologist-1011.com; http://geologist-1011.net Technical & Web Design: http://web-design-1011.com -- GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer today! From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Mon Oct 13 02:34:45 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E09ED4B0C34 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 2008 02:34:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LVcbRtB5uCna for ; Mon, 13 Oct 2008 02:34:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id D9D624B0C76; Mon, 13 Oct 2008 02:34:44 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 01:34:51 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 01:14:20 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Reply-To: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" From: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai References: Subject: Re: Prohibition Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 16:14:00 +1000 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KpFl2-0000m5-5W X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-r36sYt364AfwLALj1pTJPIQcJh/xCnv38G3XgLQ8g2PNwd6MHPd184UHEBn4No6sIBeb8/qEtBp7etU!+9VFu7M0796JOzJ/PU9D9f6SG30fkFBkcMwUF1N46YxHEgMMfEBN8Adrir8ra8NBJsRpVnKovg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118696 soc.religion.bahai:25467 alt.religion.bahai:21164 "Bill Hyman" wrote in message news:yYydnd76GOUbWnHVnZ2dnUVZ_rDinZ2d@giganews.com... > I would like to see prohibition laws return, but I would like to see them > enforced properly. In the USA there were too many police protected speak > easies during the last round. Sure organized crime increased, and there was > some violent crime, but a lot of it was gangsters killing each other - not a > great social loss. There is a much greater social loss now when alcohol is > legal, including many deaths and disablements from increased traffic > accidents. The social loss in prohibition days was greater. Innocent people who drink in moderation get poisoned when the fascists decide to ban what they don't understand. Only in prohibition days could you get your whiskey laced with lead. > The social cost is tremendous. Alcohol causes far more trauma > than marijuana, which is illegal, and more than all the illegal drugs > combined. Drivers are tested for alcohol, but not for other drugs. We don't know because prohibition has driven the drug problem underground where it can cause the most harm by escaping measurement. > It is a major curse to humanity. The Lord of the Age has banned > its use and the sooner the majority accepts Baha'u'llah's revelation the > better off the world will be. Cigarettes cause more death and disability than alcohol ever will, and the Lord of the Age erred grievously to ban the lesser evil and neglect the greater evil. The greatest evil is abusiveness. The problem is the abusive people and not the religions, substances and other objects of abuse by which some justify the persecution of others. > Maybe we cannot legislate morality, but we could improve it by passing > enforceable prohibition laws. Maybe the spiritual standards of society are > too low to have them enforceable at this time, but we have to start > somewhere. Bring back prohibition! Spirituality has nothing to do with consumption of alcohol. Alcohol is neither good nor evil - it is the abuse of alcohol and the subsequent use of alcoholism as an excuse to abuse others that is reprehensible. How would you like it if religion was banned just because abusive people also use religion as an excuse to abuse the rights of others? It is this kind of question that defines spirituality, and spirituality has nothing to do with the kind of blindly imitated bigotry that is refuted by every glass of wine consumed in moderation. Alcohol abuse is the exception and not the rule of alcohol consumption, and those who abuse alcohol are just as abusive when they are sober. One more question, if you take away alcohol, how do you do so without harming those whose diets include red wine and/or amaro in the correct amounts? ____________________________________________________________ Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the number@timothycasey.info to email. Philosophical Essays: http://timothycasey.info Speed Reading: http://speed-reading-comprehension.com Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security. Science & Geology: http://geologist-1011.com; http://geologist-1011.net Technical & Web Design: http://web-design-1011.com -- GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer today! From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Oct 14 01:18:04 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C8994B0BC8 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:18:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F2zclA8mO-uA for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:18:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id E3E554B0C15; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:18:02 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:18:01 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 03:12:35 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.4.0.080122 Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:11:43 -1100 Subject: Re: Prohibition From: Bill Hyman Thread-Topic: Prohibition Thread-Index: AcktAvH/MNQ7mpj2Ed2WcgAwZXfiJg== In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at blueskynet.as X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KpHbS-000215-Kb X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-fCAcH0B6vNtR/4xkHb7DIne2qB/pj28j7xDhMkjdEY8lMd5hvxB4IQ9Sp4IU62vEvx9WZEBzB+MixI4!gq8Sv8hgh5orZaNp3ElhoUihHIAzqUJFIaYsaazIpwFFuSs50BWa8ZAuyWeXt2XXaIIfIIWCUQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25468 Tim wrote: > Only in prohibition days could you get your whiskey laced with > lead. Reprehensible but it had nothing to do with prohibition laws. > Cigarettes cause more death and disability than alcohol ever will, and the > Lord of the Age erred grievously to ban the lesser evil and neglect the > greater evil. The Lord of the Age does not err. Smokers are more likely to kill themselves than others. Although smoking is not against Divine Law, I would like to see prohibition laws for smoking too. My understanding is that smoking was against the law for Babi's. Smoking was so prevalent in Persia that non-smokers were persecuted as being Babi's or Baha'is and Baha'u'llah allowed smoking to protect those non-believers. > Spirituality has nothing to do with consumption of alcohol. I agree, but spirituality has a lot to do with those whose duty is supposed to be enforcing the laws. Read what I wrote again, with this in mind, and you will understand my meaning. > One more question, if you take away alcohol, how do you do so without > harming those whose diets include red wine and/or amaro in the correct > amounts? There is no problem if the diets are medically prescribed. Bill From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Oct 14 01:18:09 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B602C4B0BC8 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:18:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A2MCHH203cjZ for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:18:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 6306F4B0C0A; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:18:09 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:18:13 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 03:26:03 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.4.0.080122 Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:15:56 -1100 Subject: Translation was Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? From: Bill Hyman Thread-Topic: Translation was Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Thread-Index: AcktA4jMxy3nWpj2Ed2WcgAwZXfiJg== Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at blueskynet.as X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KpHoR-00056G-BM X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: <1N2dneIZcu4ItmnVnZ2dnUVZ_qXinZ2d@giganews.com> X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-DiLAMfS85NOWOJGsza091SEo5IMqMl99kIkVHL26u/0J7GX+6HRRr2s++d6ZsOR0BnM2KefWdNgxcfZ!fN3cSdFVOo/+wFMlvNdE2Pc0QqqHT+jzNL2E0UF80bRtsQfpEW5rkIbg+2XN0P8TM96XMlGfqA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25469 Hi Tim: My opinion is that the Guardian did not make any mistakes using one word in place of another which had a similar meaning but 50 years later may be considered archaic. I consider that if a word he used at that time was considered archaic he chose it for a reason and maybe we should try to determine what that reason might be. English is my first language but I notice that I sometimes need a dictionary to fully comprehend some documents released by the Baha'i World Centre. Maybe they were designed only for the best educated, or maybe they mean more to those who have to research to comprehend. Bill On 10/12/08 5:05 PM, "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" wrote: > "Enty Ell" wrote in message > news:FrqdnfZX-5y3F3fVnZ2dnUVZ_vGdnZ2d@giganews.com... >> "divers" - archaic adjective meaning many and different! >> >> Also a plural noun in modern use. >> >> Cheers >> >> Mike > > Unless you are artistically representing a specifically historical context, > using archaic terms in place of modern terms is incorrect, especially when > the archaic term refers in modern usage to something else. This is not a > matter of "who says", but of how many understand what you are trying to say > at 1200wpm or better. I've made this mistake myself, often enough to know it > is an error. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Oct 14 01:18:29 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 183694B0C81 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:18:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CWow4PV6UtPq for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:18:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 6DC514B0C84; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:18:28 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:18:47 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:01:42 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=pqrZDB5oV1H9YDl05Anw1LIFTuD+KjKeslZk+FlgCvnyp6nem8H6YU5I8FzI9nxvSoK1ee9mGKVJ5VWUbfbHSs7GdSI7v9XIP62yz6NxQxrf4xgZH4dSHnGqfLEwADpYksjfd+DisH765USiFck7G2R5DJihy0EKWjWYvADwttM= ; X-YMail-OSG: FKAPxL0VM1mFCU5hUPVZiBSsaeUMOhK3txvd6AY5i0QbnXFkD51piumKO5Cybd0QC0ULuQ25rTa8zYwjEnrPSNk5HLQBDS4s.QhoyIb4YIJea5qB8eZhaFFCgiFIfdjkoJK0Tc4jdVnKF4N0RQsZ2tpADBWCP7pY4JhImqf91McNJPFQr4Ygjo_Eulas X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:01:29 -0400 References: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-94NC1vv8WTFqSI9d4YWG5tduFcMVZnvXijCqKEiX4E0GpFco3jChumvi9m52RcwtCdkqxKc5KN/EVct!379mWJYL44WC4Qi9MeVhw5PfTE2/U5sInTVcTAVqsKn9Ucw60wEhIkODMYzM7ZrPLNmY3jY3SQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25470 Hi Mike- I tried my best to explain all this as I see it but still you seem to be thinking that God is punishing people for rejecting his Manifestation even though they have lived good lives. It is not God Who is punishing those who reject Him, it is the individual who rejects Him that brings about his own punishment. I tried to explain by using the analogy of the law of gravity wherein if we choose to jump off a roof we are going to feel the negative effects physically even though we are ignorant of the law. I also tried to explain by use of the analogy of the parent and child where a parent will lay down rules to the child and explain what will happen if the child breaks the rule. If the child breaks the rule and is punished is he to blame the parent or himself? However the difference is that when it comes to spiritual conditions all people go forward to the next world, but in the spiritual condition they caused to themselves in this world and they are given opportunity by God's Mercy to further develop themselves in that new world. regards, doug On Oct 11, 2008, at 10:30 PM, mike3 wrote: > On Oct 11, 8:46 am, Douglas McAdam > wrote: >> Dear Mike- >> First of all I or any other Baha'i cannot judge the spirituality of >> another soul. That is God's job. All I have done is produced quotes > >> relative to the discussion. However I can offer my understanding of > >> that quote, but in the context of other quotes relative to the twin >> duties. My understanding is that if a person is confronted by the > >> Manifestation and rejects Him then no matter how loving and kind they >> may be their acts are useless in the eyes of God. Here is the >> specific portion of the quote relevant to this - >> >>>> Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained >>>> unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, >>>> though >>>> he be the author of every righteous deed. >> >> That seems pretty clear does it not? > > > See, and it's this type of stuff that gives me all the confusion, and > makes > me wonder just exactly how good a path the Baha'i Faith is, vs. other > religions or non-religions or whatever. > > Because to me, on one hand we have this stuff about peace, about > wonders > and goodness being in the future for all of humanity, something that > seems > incredible and would be a great thing to have, which makes me more > interested > in the religion. > > But then, on the _other_ hand, we have stuff like the above, which > doesn't > seem to jive. It *seems* to be saying that God would diss or punish > quite > a bit, someone who devoted their whole life to bettering the world, > went > through much trouble to try and make things better and make people's > lives > more good, but yet be either simply ignorant of the messenger due to > not > hearing about them, or maybe they did hear but they honestly did not > understand that who they heard of _was_ the messenger, etc. etc., and > because of that, all this good to be utterly reduced to nothing at all > in the > eyes of God, and seemingly thus put on the same level as someone like > Hitler who did the exact opposite of everything they did, who > succumbed to > dark evil and committed atrocities that would make the vast majority > of > people sick to the stomach. And also it would suggest 6.494 billion > human > beings are going to all end up horribly miserable in the realms and > universes > the afterlife takes place in. ("Burn in hell" as the Christians call > it though it > probably does not involve literal fire or a specific place called > "hell". But great > torment, despair, and other very negative things nonetheless, right up > there > with Hitler, Stalin, Napoleon, Saddam Hussein, Emperor Qin, and so on > and > so on, despite having worked all their life to help make the world > _better_ than > that.) That doesn't seem to be like a good God to me, more like a bad > God > (DysTheism -- literally "bad God" -- which I don't subscribe to > either). > > Of course one cannot say, yes this *will* happen, as that is making a > judgment > that is impossible (except for God) to make correctly, and so would > not be > fair, but it is the *drift* that I seem to be getting from the quote. > And that is > what I am wondering: am I getting the right *drift* or not (i.e. have > I properly > understood what is really being said by the quote?)? The question is > not > to ask for someone to judge other people's fate, but to ask whether > this > disturbing *drift* is indeed "right on the money" or not. > > Anyway, I have not actually committed to the Baha'i Faith, and still > do not > know if I want to, and it's things like these that always create more > controversy > and questions in my mind. Now there are some rules I do not yet grasp > the > logic of, e.g. the head shaving prohibitions (why exactly is that > _bad_ to do?) > and hair length prohibitions (for men), but these don't seem to give > anywhere > near the type of fundamental troubles this stuff I'm discussing here > does. > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Oct 14 01:18:36 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A23C84B0C8C for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:18:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ekQTzZYuMTyP for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:18:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id E24754B0C8D; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:18:35 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:19:00 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:07:35 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=r5pH9Aee8ec1vMUV02LAbj31gfYgda16Uo+SlkjFWT3KadaBAGeaX55Nr3Vzzc+e2uPEaq9M5d39NNHpJOj6GrBa98YM9Bjal6Hpu9dVN5/ZDJdprV8TwXRoaTvYD3n2SJN8Y11tVI/1gkHbB+hFylYDOsZPlNHT5G0eryMDuIU= ; X-YMail-OSG: FzcF.OAVM1kXLIsYZN4Lfj8qLRq0wqYgLZRlKw13CLa8f9pzQStxx0lUQ3tgL0RdAOp4GN_i9UgZ4Qb76ED_Uk6Dm8C6vU_MpRkB2CGkMmNI3qKct2ckLVI9eqJC2Ga8qAbybCa89DFCvzoeU9Ilqp5ebTc0RylqJ325xZH.AE0itZe9cGyKzHZm5uPE X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:07:14 -0400 References: X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KpP15-0001UB-26 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-0ekdWen4IX+2FwkLllQ2mpAh0h62V9bAWYx3fWjV78xCB/r4012OK+5pp8TRLRH9KxbNZvHwi7vNWJb!yRDSUFK7M4QcYaY0SvTb5M8FLFECszga8TOamkdoAWdOiidXLYNbpT9xqUPnIl0ui3nMKJ/kzw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25471 Hi Tom- I would offer, again from my limited understanding of the Writings, that it seems to me there is evidence in our Writings that the soul is capable of discerning and recognizing the Truth when presented but it is the outer or materialistically conditioned person or ego that rejects the Truth. So a gang of thugs may indeed have presented Jesus wrongly to say natives who are unsophisticated and reject at first but in time that Truth will have an effect. Also if they reject I'm sure God knows it was because of the faulty presentation and His Mercy would offer those souls another opportunity for God's Justice would come into play and it would be unjust I would think to allow those ignorant people to suffer spiritually by having made bad choice based on incorrect evidence. regards, doug On Oct 12, 2008, at 4:46 PM, tsuki190 wrote: > If someone has never heard of the messenger, then obviously they have > not rejected > the messenger. QED. > > I would also personally apply that to people who have heard of the > messenger in > an ineffective way, e.g. an african native who heard about Jesus > from a drunken > pedophile missionary accompanying an army of conquerors and > rapists. It would > be reasonable to reject out of hand anything promoted by such a gang > of thugs. > Surprisingly some people actually perceived the divine beauty of the > messenger > even under those conditions! > > Cheers, > Tom > >> >> What about where they've never even _heard_ of the messenger? Ever, >> in their whole life? >> > > On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 1:50 PM, mike3 wrote: >> On Oct 11, 8:46 am, Douglas McAdam >> wrote: >>> Dear Mike- >>> First of all I or any other Baha'i cannot judge the spirituality of >>> another soul. That is God's job. >> >> It wasn't here to ask for a judgment on somebody, I was here to ask >> about >> something that seemed unfair, stuff that seemed, well, you know, >> similar to >> what those Christian preachers like to preach about. ("you don't >> believe in >> JESUS? You're going to BURN! Forever! A good heart is not enough, >> you're >> still damned and there is NO ESCAPE!") >> >>> All I have done is produced quotes >>> relative to the discussion. However I can offer my understanding of >>> that quote, but in the context of other quotes relative to the twin >>> duties. My understanding is that if a person is confronted by the >>> Manifestation and rejects Him then no matter how loving and kind >>> they >>> may be their acts are useless in the eyes of God. >> >> What about where they've never even _heard_ of the messenger? Ever, >> in their whole life? >> >>> Here is the >>> specific portion of the quote relevant to this - >>> >>>>> Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained >>>>> unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, >>>>> though >>>>> he be the author of every righteous deed. >>> >>> That seems pretty clear does it not? >>> >> >> So then it would *seem to suggest* that the vast majority of people, >> who >> have _not_ achieved that duty, would be lost, no matter how good. >> That's >> the thing that I'm hung up on, it doesn't seem right, to condemn >> 6.494 billion people like that. Because they've never even _heard_ of >> the >> Baha'i Faith, Baha'u'llah, etc. That's what doesn't seem fair or >> right >> to me, >> it just doesn't seem right. >> >>> My personal feeling is that if people were indeed living lives in >>> accordance with God's Laws and Teachings then they would readily >>> recognize the Manifestation when He appears. History seems to show >>> what happened when the previous religion's believers did not >>> recognize >>> the new Manifestations. >>> >>> I have learned over the years that many souls will reject what I am >>> teaching them about the Manifestation for today and His Revelation >>> but >>> then after a spell they accept. I think this is due to an ego >>> problem, that the soul really accepts but the ego rejects because it >>> does want to lose control. I once had a psychologist reject for 15 >>> yrs. my attempts to teach him about how the Baha'i Teachings >>> relate to >>> addiction therapy and finally he told me he had been wrong because >>> he >>> was only seeing things through his academic training and not by >>> taking >>> into consideration the Baha'i Writings. So I don't judge souls, I >>> simply teach and show them love and understanding. I give them the >>> Writings and let them deal with it and I answer questions directly. >>> >>> regards, >>> doug >>> >>> On Oct 11, 2008, at 5:03 AM, mike3 wrote: >>> >>>> On Oct 3, 7:12 pm, Douglas McAdam >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Here is the quote and there are others- >>>>> IN THE NAME OF HIM WHO IS THE SUPREME RULEROVER ALL THAT HATH BEEN >>>>> AND >>> >>>>> ALL THAT IS TO BE >>> >>>>> The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the >>>>> recognition >>>>> of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain >>>>> of His >>> >>>>> laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His >>>>> Cause >>>>> and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained >>>>> unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, >>>>> though >>> >>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>> >>>>> he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one >>>>> who >>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>>>> reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent >>>>> glory, >>> >>>>> to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. >>>>> These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without >>>>> the >>>>> other. (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 16) >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Hmm. Does this therefore mean that even those people who are really >>>> good in their hearts and have devoted themselves to helping the >>>> world >>>> and >>>> doing as much good as they can for humanity and everything, but who >>>> do not recognize God's prophet, have _failed_ and so are "damned" >>>> and >>>> are actually very miserable? Does this mean that in their >>>> Afterlife, >>>> they >>>> would be lost forever with no hope, despite all that good and stuff >>>> (esp. >>>> all the stuff about "no free will in the afterlife" suggesting no >>>> way >>>> to alter >>>> the course "away" from God that would _appear_ to be set up by >>>> ignorance >>>> of the prophet in spite of all the goodness)? >> >> > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Oct 14 01:20:03 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 218BD4B0BC8 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:20:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9tkltjKp-SEF for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 4D43A4B0C81; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:20:15 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 12:02:51 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=xDOR5Y9xRB8cu0CNVKNtYJxMJHwRmZ7ILgZGrQh4UP8bA+SEP0NITl+ERJPjX3u+EioEX5Y9CF2PEfKetqS46eXQ61ajdVofmCuUa2RID3gZsxQ0SuFtGuICF9zvoF1zS+fncy6x3Ig0y4O2Ow0nfvhXHnj5o1DLB0VWtqaxn1Q= ; X-YMail-OSG: gnHs4LIVM1mLimCfVpK4Pyp1icf_keXWa9s8RjRqaBDtH7rpnOOhACIRaPJn88RwKhghqE3YN9msaFDqKvKZOf5VPXZA1lDEFzvU43gzkIIs3TqUpqRF8bb3aLoBsyf6X5gio6c_DBaTalrBplySqQV1.gPcTM.V0puVSP0- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: <77C47669-07EF-43E5-94A4-349E1097B6D1@sbcglobal.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 12:02:40 -0400 References: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> <77C47669-07EF-43E5-94A4-349E1097B6D1@sbcglobal.net> X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KpPsd-0003M6-MD X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: <8eudnY1HLpqSsWnVnZ2dnUVZ_vCdnZ2d@giganews.com> X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-We9AR0j5duCDM/n43auWy2MZmZXNBxu/lmgkPpYM08+1bAywv2sV8BnBB7k8on0tyQnwOSn3jPrzAlw!8l4Xr4fi7L4awmAmmeTJsKO+pIZY0n3i9rs4hAQYm1ClppW3s4T7HZjTHrodFAOvkCkkX/4IPQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 X-Original-Bytes: 4064 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25472 On Oct 13, 2008, at 11:46 AM, Douglas McAdam wrote: >>> It strikes me strange that we can attribute total essential >>> infallibility to the Manifestation who is without error and then >>> when >>> He appoints the Master and confers infallibility upon him that some >>> will attribute an error to the Master or the Guardian. To me that >>> would mean the Manifestation (God speaking to us) made an error in >>> conferring infallibility upon the Master,etc. >> >> Exactly. A contradiction of conferred infallibility refutes the >> essential >> infallibility of the source by which the conferred infallibility was >> conferred in the first place. > > Seems reasonable to me. Dear Tim- I recently sent you a reply concerning your response on my comment and did so in error. I thought you were agreeing with me and on second glance see that you were not. To me the Manifestation with essential infallibility cannot make an error in appointing and conferring infallibility on another who could make an error. We are not infallible and thus we cannot evaluate an infallible souls behavior or actions as being in error. I have not seen any evidence produced by any scholar to warrant a conclusion the Central Figures made an error. regards, doug From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Oct 14 01:20:14 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 896614B0BC8 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:20:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J6rxztPpHNBD for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:20:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id F03564B0C96; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:20:13 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:20:34 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 12:24:11 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=NaYnvjZy7tJinxl89bPUmDPZopvZoxS2mU9OqIS5VnLH6zJzmE72XwwVL5XeFI4YflIjZ1S2dB65sL6U0Z5DC7AF/a+I1q6bftdGBQuEA71D522BCWHmtre0BDyOVCuVtoLkS4Txpj28bvb2CXz7JZP0voGzWLEXZHJYLqJ1Dt8= ; X-YMail-OSG: uyqbkDYVM1lMetIjWqhWhy7kGbaB0SkZ5OeanheVs6Qf.Q4y3d2pmcdU888LJ1jYdlc94ytH4SmciGoO1PJp10q58UDOjspWw1GYmm9V2TDPA9B7SMOQATs.Lhg31QG5Q7Q- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 12:23:59 -0400 References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KpQDH-0005yq-8Q X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-Yz1fSXlcmZQLEnVn5MncdTkgIWTLpNW1V0t2sd6cIVpHpkrzHXgsjGaXQahw6akmfdkt1W9Jf4YKIL9!HX/59D1YEplu0KdHqrU9xmqStVgV4AG3bGqc7Kg2eI4RWMJCsnrbSsaAuBd/YsWBckTnfskTvg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25473 On Oct 8, 2008, at 9:04 PM, compx2 wrote: > And my only defense is to argue with you. What you believe is the > Baha'i Faith is NOT the Baha'i Faith. Does this apply to you also Kent? I do not understand you here and I am not trying to argue with you, I simply do not understand what you mean and how you arrive at such a conclusion. In other words if you mean that what you believe is NOT the Bahai Faith I can agree for I believe there is the divinely revealed Baha'i Faith and then there is our interpretation of it which is fallible. But yet, how can one fallible and limited Baha'i judge whether or not another's belief IS or is NOT the Baha'i Faith? Wouldn't this be something for an institution to decide? doug From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Oct 14 01:20:28 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD44B4B0BC8 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:20:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PBiEIb545q5s for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:20:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id B31824B0C95; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:20:27 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:20:56 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 12:39:35 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=xbmKZgDWK0Rxysi0y7PK17gg6jH0yAafTT8JgxIXI0IAuLYDh57Qlb4URT8RMv1wjUjmtCxoz/sNyoUvZaxJsGV0VNIrtlVXxBQ96bSCLae27e4rWzu4ilk1AoEZO9UMMpDWrgKOZ/zrTovpPtziVEfQNKYwSPt7J7pIbnUIfUs= ; X-YMail-OSG: giZ7PhwVM1n7N6Bvh.u9rNibHh.IB6PyP6OyLqds.lfL2KOW5saBATGeEAFiX3qELEdR8ah6OceyucezVs2yGVaA3F3dsAnpaSaeyv7mxLvWJ6l.Hd362LoKgoK8Gxju3.Sfv_K7fg.hpQYcpG2zonDu X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 12:39:17 -0400 References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <7uadnXpC9NqFdHHVnZ2dnUVZ_oPinZ2d@giganews.com> <8vidnR9LpoCbUG3VnZ2dnUVZ_srinZ2d@giganews.com> X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KpQS7-0007xy-HV X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-Au8pXkLX7kSN7Z+qWAKMNvzQrtEaVZxAOo6yJmOTGwQYUTBcDeYtP9UllgENhzSs13wuYyWgSX1YNqu!n9Qdwzjr1HOhnu7SY3EhR9RXzirbUnv9CxIPhX12xx8+T89ABllhF8DBDml59KQa0kBcjXue3A== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25474 On Oct 12, 2008, at 10:14 PM, compx2 wrote: > Hi Doug, > >> I >> still say many of our laws today are based on the Ten Commandments... > > Murder was illegal before Moses. That is the point. It seems to me > you are saying that civil law is based upon "Thou Shalt Not Kill". If > that is your assertion, then one day brecking any of God's Laws will > be just as bad as any other, right? Sorry but I do not follow your reasoning here. I am saying that God has revealed laws to us historically and we then make our civil laws based on His Laws. That does not mean we don't ourselves concoct laws for we do but yet in a way they too are indirectly based on His revealed laws. The punishments vary according to the laws. "Let the punishment fit the crime", is an old saying. > > > Because if not, then what are the important commandments? What are > the important laws of God? Your argument just dies. If they aren't > all equally important, then what, are they numbered? What number is > the law that Baha'is should not drink alcohol? And how will that make > it into secular law when fully half of the Ten Commandments did not > after almost three thousand years? All the laws are important or God would not have revealed them to us. However the punishment for each is unique to either what He has revealed or what society has determined. > >> I gave >> you quotes regarding how in the future will have a Bahai Commonwealth >> and that would mean we would have civil laws based on Divine Laws >> revealed by Baha'u'llah > > It would mean that Baha'is rule the commonwealth, but that is all it > means. Unless you have a quote saying that the laws of the > commonwealth will be based on Divine Law and I missed it. As I said before, the Laws of God have throughout history been translated into civil laws in many cases. If Baha'is rule the Commonwealth would they then enact laws that disagree with Baha'u'llah's laws or would they enact and enforce His laws? Who decides this if not the divinely revealed Baha'i Institution? > > >> I wonder how other Baha'is would >> interpret the quotes I offered. > > You think we should vote? No, I think we should discuss this in terms of the principle of Bahai Consultation and avoid any negative personal remarks or insinuations. Is that your understanding of Baha'i consultation? > >> ... it is not a law. > > How is a command not a law? Is this command in the Aqdas Kent? Is it referred to anywhere as a law? God bless, doug > > > --Kent > > > > On Oct 11, 7:57 pm, Douglas McAdam > wrote: >> On Oct 11, 2008, at 1:08 PM, compx2 wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>> Hi Doug, >> >>> You: >> >>>> I did not say the Ten Commandments should be civil law. I said >>>> they >>>> are an example of how God's Laws became civil laws. >> >>> What you said: >> >>> "Many of our laws today are based on the Ten Commandments yet no >>> all >>> mankind are Jewish or Christian. Wouldn't it be realistic to >>> predic > t >>> that in the future our civil laws will be based on the Baha'i >>> Revelation?" >> >>> Your assertion now is very different from what I thought you were >>> saying. It is as though you think murder would not be illegal if >>> Moses had not brought tablets from the mountain, and since >>> Baha'u'llah >>> forbid alcohol to Baha'is soon everyone will equate alcohol with >>> murder. >> >> I'm asking myself how you can come up with these conclusion and >> assign > >> such things to me when I never said nor meant any such thing. I >> still say many of our laws today are based on the Ten Commandments >> but > >> you disagree and so there is nothing I can do about it. But to >> that I > >> would equate alcohol with murder is simply too ridiculous to >> respond to. >> >> >> >>> But that is not a topic that interests me, so let's drop this >>> Commandments side discussion. >> >> Agreed >> >> >> >>>> Do you really think that in the future Baha'i Commonwealth, the New >>>> World Order of Baha'u'llah there will be no civil laws from the >>>> Faith >>>> imposed on society? If so can you give me a quote saying this? >> >>> A quote saying there will be no civil laws from the Baha'i Faith in >>> the future? You mean like a prophecy? It seems to me, if you thin > k >>> that is the case, there should be a quote saying there will be such >>> laws. >> >> No I'm not saying I need that kind of a quote, I'm saying that I gave >> you quotes regarding how in the future will have a Bahai Commonwealth >> and that would mean we would have civil laws based on Divine Laws >> revealed by Baha'u'llah and if you disagree then show me quotes to >> back up your assertions. >> >> >> >>> I don't find quotes saying there will be no Baha'i politicians, or >>> Baha'i murderers, or that all Baha'is will be anything at all, >>> generous, trustworthy. There are not quotes like that. So, since >>> there aren't any quotes saying it, it must be either true or not >>> true, >>> right? >> >> Not that is not right Kent. I'm not asking you to provide those >> kinds > >> of quotes, and I explained it above. >> >> >> >>> So please stop asking me to prove a negative assertion. No one >>> can d > o >>> it. There is no proof that there is not anything, anywhere at all. >> >> That is not what I am doing as I explained above. >> >> >> >>>> Can you show me a quote to back up your conclusions about reward >>>> and >>>> punishment please? >> >>> Your quote, that you referenced, backs me up. >> >> So we disagree on interpretation. I wonder how other Baha'is would >> interpret the quotes I offered. >> >> >> >>>> Generosity is a Scriptural Law? News to me. Can you give me a >>>> quote? >> >>> "Be generous in prosperity". Look it up. >> >> I did. It is in Epistle to the Son of the Wolf and it is not a law. > >> It is not in the Aqdas as a Law. Why do you think it is a law? >> However I could make a case for it to be a sort of law, say like >> graduated income tax where those who prosper pay a greater share of >> taxes, but that would be a far stretch. In any case we individuals >> do > >> not make laws. >> >> >> >>>> So wouldn't having human >>>> faults be a form of self punishment once we know we are to acquire >>>> virtues? >> >>> You mean the failure to develop one's self, to acquire virtues, is >>> itself a punishment? >> >>> If that is what you are talking about as punishment then I would >>> agree ... not that it is a punishment, but that is what happens. > If >>> one does not make the effort to improve one's self, one does not >>> improve. I say that if one makes the effort, one improves: a >>> reward. >> >> Yes, inherent in the purpose to acquire virtues is a punishment to >> the > >> individual for failure which will be manifested in a human fault. >> >> >> >>>> We are discussing the >>>> harm of disobedience to the Baha'i law of prohibition of alcohol >>>> and >>>> in spite of direct references to the law from the Writings you >>>> disagree. >> >>> We are discussing Baha'i intolerance to non-Baha'is who drink >>> occassional alcoholic beverages. >> >> As I said, I am not intolerant to any non-Baha'i who drinks and >> occasional alcoholic beverage. I am intolerant of the act of drinking >> when it is prohibited by Bahai Law. I explained this in detail. If > a >> non Bahai asked me what the Baha'i stance on alcohol is I would give >> him or her the quotes I offered you and Paul. Knowing what I know of > >> the harm of alcohol then my love for a non-Baha'i would be that I >> would give the truth as I see it. I don't go around telling non - >> Bahais I disapprove of their drinking casually. I only respond when > >> asked. >> >> >> >>>> So show me an intolerant thing I said in the this new message and I >>>> will explain it more clearly. >> >>> Thank God I don't find any new intolerance in this message. We are >>> still dealing with your intolerance to non-Baha'i who drink alcohol >>> occassionally as the primary intolerance I see in you today. >> >> No we are not Kent. We are dealing with your intolerance of me and >> your misunderstanding of what I am saying and this too is something I >> do not wish to continue so lets move on. >> >> doug >> >> >> >> >> >>> --Kent >> >>> On Oct 11, 11:20 am, Douglas McAdam >>> wrote: >>>> On Oct 11, 2008, at 8:03 AM, compx2 wrote: >> >>>>> Hi Doug, >> >>>>>> I used the Ten Commandments as an example... >> >>>>> Yes, you did, when you were talking about the punishment in store >>>>> for >>>>> Paul who is a non-Baha'i who enjoys drinking a single alcoholic >>>>> beverage occassionally. I say there is no such punishment, then >>>>> yo > u >>>>> brought up the Ten Commandments as examples of God's Law that >>>>> should >>>>> be universal civil law as well. >> >>>> Kent- >>>> I did not say the Ten Commandments should be civil law. I said >>>> they >> >>>> are an example of how God's Laws became civil laws. And they incur >>>> punishment either by society or self punishment depending on >>>> circumstances and conditions. Obviously the laws such as stealing, >>>> murder, and the like are punishable by civil law whereas other >>>> laws, >>>> if violated in a Christian culture by non Christians might result >>>> in >>>> prejudice towards them. What happens to a person in Court who >>>> refuses >> >>>> to swear to tell the truth and the whole truth "so help you God" on >>>> the bible? Does that person then get treated with the same justice >>>> they should? >> >>>> Do you really think that in the future Baha'i Commonwealth, the New >>>> World Order of Baha'u'llah there will be no civil laws from the >>>> Faith >>>> imposed on society? If so can you give me a quote saying this? >> >>>>> So I went through them, and half of the Ten Commandments are not >>>>> civil >>>>> law nearly anywhere on earth. So they are not a good example of > >>>>> God' >>> s >>>>> Law that is now civil law. >> >>>> But some were made civil laws, weren't they. The ones that weren't >>>> were obviously not something society could enact as civil law but >>>> in >>>> any case violation of them causes problems. >> >>>>> Unless you are dropping that assertion we should go on talking >>>>> about >>>>> the other things you have neglected to answer, such as men's hair >>>>> length, daily prayer, and dowrys. How will the Baha'i Police >>>>> enforce >>>>> such laws? >> >>>> Abdu'l-Baha has already answered this Kent and I would think you >>>> know >>>> it. I have a seven page document of his explanations of laws, >>>> rewar > d >> >>>> and punishment etc. and I have posted a few before. >> >>>>>> See God Passes >>>>>> By regarding the twin pillars of Justice. >> >>>>> I think you are well aware that I have read the Writings and know >>>>> well >>>>> what is said. That is why I said: "there is reward, but no >>>>> punishment, except in extreme cases." The sources you refer to >>>>> bac > k >>>>> me up in that. >> >>>> Can you show me a quote to back up your conclusions about reward >>>> and >>>> punishment please? >> >>>>> If you cannot come up with a single specific question about my >>>>> assertion, I suggest you read a bit more on the subject of God's >>>>> justice and mercy. I believe you will find I am right about this. >> >>>>>> Show me one example of a Scriptural law of God that when broken >>>>>> will >>>>>> not produce a punishment, either self-inflicted or inflicted by >>>>>> society. >> >>>>> Generousity. Many places all scripture demands that we should "be >>>>> generous". What is the specific punishment for not being >>>>> generous? >>>>> Daily prayer? Hair length? Dowry? >> >>>> Generosity is a Scriptural Law? News to me. Can you give me a >>>> quote? Generosity is a virtue and our purpose is to acquire >>>> virtues. The Writings tell us that if we do not acquire a virtue >>>> th > e >> >>>> void will be filled with a human fault. So wouldn't having human >>>> faults be a form of self punishment once we know we are to acquire >>>> and >> >>>> avoid personal judgments. >> >>>>>> I have given you >>>>>> quotes from the Writings in every case that I commented upon but >>>>>> you >>>>>> have produced none to back up your assertions. >> >>>>> You mean a general reference to GPB, "reward and punishment"? I >>>>> didn't say there is no punishment, I did not deny your reference >>>>> to >>>>> the "Writings". I just said you are misguided in a number of ways > >>>>> in >>>>> your intepretation of the writings. >> >>>> So you are guided and I am misguided? Who is doing the guiding? > I >> >>>> thought we are all entitled to our own interpretation of the >>>> Writings >>>> but that we are not to impose these on others. We are discussing >>>> th > e >> >>>> harm of disobedience to the Baha'i law of prohibition of alcohol >>>> and >>>> in spite of direct references to the law from the Writings you >>>> disagree. That is not my problem Kent but you can easily settle >>>> thi > s >> >>>> by writing to the House of Justice or consulting with an ABM or >>>> Counselor. >> >>>>>> If you don't agree then produce references from objective science > >>>>>> and >>>>>> true religion such as the Baha'i Writings.- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text -... >> >> read more =BB > > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Oct 14 01:20:42 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 976EB4B0C99 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:20:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p7vVmhOxAkTT for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:20:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id B226E4B0C98; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:20:41 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:21:20 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 12:56:51 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=IvjpCs9Kney33fH/kvw6fpBasdAP26W4YGoc5AWXD6ImvUaoF3KikkpuVqmGxD/PIFRXd4jAprplIMMsoUhjGYHlBYIIqh8ZKtxuzWoPGO++onKgFiHa4IBHS8jUF8b9MHBXoSIgkGpnOvuOZ0v0Enccb+kliUPkWIsNkw1QBFs= ; X-YMail-OSG: z7YRUdEVM1lvT.3ZZ3YbLi4geFShzE79WzsmFGOBLdLZeJEZn9yAG_QYJ09LDaa5V.2iR1zvsQimz0pzhiKvtoeztioMBx12zCUDWBUlKVrQjong0NUxDvXYU0oXfBr_sLja04SlYzrNIzyIh1xPeEK4XF2J.raBzJry_NOjy92W.Ao5OhBy.eKOXN6Y X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 12:56:35 -0400 References: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-cASoCxxXWn45veOjrsilNA1bxH25p2DFi8I7QmBl8VUpXmz993PFCJSOBvYzi08GZOiBnxuJMaWPTjZ!TubuRpYZaaMLga/6j0tG6BaZS8LkyICoFhfqu6SdhXyxJZrn2Zj2dQzJQtJL7e/CRqY0G3SEYA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25475 On Oct 12, 2008, at 10:38 PM, compx2 wrote: > Hi Doug, > >> So what does that quote say Kent? > > .... recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the > Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the > Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this > duty hath attained unto all good... That is two duties, i.e. recognition and obedience. > > > That is a far cry from Doug: " ...if a person is confronted by the > Manifestation and rejects Him then no matter how loving and kind they > may be their acts are useless in the eyes of God. " Yet Kent this is what the quote says -It clearly states -- "Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other." I did not say this Baha'u'llah did so your disagreement would have to be with him not me. Why not write an ABM for an opinion. > It is my duty, my first duty, to recognize God on earth. If the > Baha'i Faith keeps moving in this totalitarian, intolerant, whimsical > direction it will not represent much about God at all anymore. It > fails in many ways to manifest God on earth now. But that does not > absolve anyone, especially not me, from my duty to find Him and > recognize His power and devote myself to it. Huh? I don't see the Baha'i Faith moving in the direction you think. My goodness how can you come up with such conclusions is beyond me. Just because you disagree with me does not mean the Baha'i Faith is moving in this direction. Why don't you gain the consultation of a divine institution if you are so worried about this? > > > It is not something we do once and are done with it. It is a constant > struggle to find God wherever you are, whatever you are doing. It is > everyone's duty all the time. I find it a constant struggle to obey having found God and His current Manifestation in the first place. > > > It has nothing to do with the name "Baha'u'llah" or "Baha'i", it is > God's Manifestation, His Existence, His Being on earth. That is the > responsibility, the duty I have as a Baha'i, and if I had to say so, > your intolerance is telling of the fact that you have missed that > Mark. I am only intolerant of your constant habit of making negative personal remarks about me, or anyone who disagrees with you. Now you are insinuating that I am not a Baha'i in good standing. How can the Mods put up with this kind of thing is beyond me. > > > Of course it is not my job to judge. Yet you are doing it all the time in connection with me personally and as you mentioned above and in different other posts your dissatisfaction with the Baha'i community at large. > > >> What about a CB who rejects Baha'u'llah and His >> Faith? > > Working against a group who sincerely believes they have humanity's > best interest at heart, a group like the Baha'is, is another > indication that the person has missed God and His Signs and His > Attributes on earth. > >> Should we shun them or tolerate them? > > We should obey the institutions of the Faith if we want to remain > Baha'is. But should the Baha'i Faith become stacked with intolerant > slime buckets we will be on our own again, like we were before the > Baha'i Revelation. At some future point beyond 1000 years all of the > good servants of God will leave the Baha'i Faith. What do the Writings say about this Kent? Is there any chance the Faith will deteriorate as you say? > > > But no matter what religion we belong to we are never absolved of that > constant, all important duty to God. Yes. > > >> Why do you think your interpretation is authoritative and thus you >> can >> judge your fellow Baha'is? > > I didn't say my interpretation was authoritative, I said yours was > intolerant. Further that opinion you expressed, I would be ashamed to > try to defend it in polite company. So in effect when you judge me intolerant you are offering your authoritative opinion based on what you call YOUR religion and I'm talking about the Baha'i Religion of which I will admit I am still a work in process. > > >> This too is another subject that should be dropped in my opinion. > > Apparently you are ashamed of it as well. Yes, I am ashamed that non-Baha'is are being exposed to this kind of ad hominem attacks and cannot understand why the Mods are putting up with it and so I will not be responding to your negative personal remarks any further. If you wish to discuss this issue of Alcohol, I will be glad to accommodate by following the principle of Baha'i consultation only. God bless, d > > > --Kent > > > > On Oct 11, 8:06 pm, Douglas McAdam > wrote: >> On Oct 11, 2008, at 1:59 PM, compx2 wrote: >> >>> You: >>>> ...if a person is confronted by the >>>> Manifestation and rejects Him then no matter how loving and kind >>>> they >>>> may be their acts are useless in the eyes of God. >> >>> If I thought that quote said what you think it says I would fight >>> tooth and nail against the Baha'i Faith. What in intolerant >>> thought! >>> If this were the Baha'i Faith I would not just reject it, I would >>> fight it with everything in me. >> >> So what does that quote say Kent? It is plain English isn't it. I > >> gave you the sentence several times. Please tell me your >> interpretation if you disagree. >> Also keep in mind that I qualified what I said by also saying it is >> not my job to judge the spiritual condition of a soul it is God's >> job. I am just offering the quote relevant to statements you make >> about intolerance. What about a CB who rejects Baha'u'llah and His > >> Faith? Should we shun them or tolerate them? >> >> >> >>> God is not spiteful, does not reject people, does not pronounce a >>> life >>> "useless". Such a conception of God is, in my considered opinion, >>> petty, simplistic, foolish. >> >> Well there again one could make a strong case from the Word of God >> about God's revenge etc. However my own belief is that this refers >> to > >> the fact that inherent in God's Laws are the punishments for >> violations. So we punish ourselves by disobedience. >> >> >> >>> God is better than that. >> >>> I am a Baha'i and I am offended that some of my co-religionists are >>> this intolerant of their fellow humanity to pronounce that "their >>> understanding" is that God will reject them. >> >> Could that be because you are misunderstanding your fellow Baha'is? >> Why do you think your interpretation is authoritative and thus you >> can > >> judge your fellow Baha'is? >> >> This too is another subject that should be dropped in my opinion. >> >> God bless, >> doug >> >> >> >> >> >>> --Kent- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Oct 14 01:21:32 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F7544B0C95 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:21:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z46f0x4bEj04 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:21:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id BBEEB4B0C9E; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:21:30 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:21:33 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:54:12 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=QoyIE3lPBbltZGVEFpNnzjw+BZDTmKCZd8J4aq0R5uHds+6aE77ENNjoree5PR1fRM8J/P5g6BYQuzi1uTvVj29FobBbp/GOIGmvj0Kbc3wbGwACm+VDarm9cwaANQnjnsihjTHDRgmqV/FZW9Jp0NwfTQxICmuNwJeLf8sUXDM= ; X-YMail-OSG: 92I39A4VM1lSEbCHcVVL6hHfrutTo8zF4pWRdcFm29u5qN5RQjpQ3B7Y4nvnupn_MDbLOCbe6OILsbirCcUb8YgqntTAVacKRfQK1EhaZ6knYrL83BstOSlTsENekpegQ6BT3Wigv1vOK3.ExJB18n7WmqI2qbN4B3fok0pAq2GUgXQY7Q4rHby6YZq5 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Prohibition Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:53:57 -0400 References: X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KpRcP-0006Qz-3w X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-ttIo2fUEO078hDRL/Nyz0TCpdCcBLQP61LybEnAtN23HhsyNFdrUyTBhZwVqFVdk8gFTUc2Om6qDwBd!7uYZBUeTXexagrD85eRoiaFGzvXILUfRHfS/uzDt4kDGHOG6Rua4UbKRQnlOoppI0tZUf6TFLw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25476 Hi Tim- I appreciate your thoughts but for me the bottom line is that God, through His current Manifestation Baha'u'llah has prohibited the drinking of alcohol unless prescribed by a physician. Whether civil law agrees or not is not the question for me. If Baha'u'llah has stated it as a law and also if He too has revealed the principle of the harmony of faith and reason/science and religion, then we best obey it. The relations we have with those who argue they wish to socially drink once in a while is the same as the relations we have with all souls, i.e. to love unconditionally all souls. But that does not mean we love all behaviors and yet at the same time while I may not tolerant occasional drinking of alcohol I still treat those who do drink with the same love I show all others. Regarding your last paragraph in which you said - > One more question, if you take away alcohol, how do you do so without > harming those whose diets include red wine and/or amaro in the correct > amounts? The Baha'i Writings are clear in that when prescribed by a physician one can use alcohol. I know we can accomplish the same healing results by requesting other natural herbs and vitamins. So to me if the Divine Law says alcohol is prohibited unless prescribed by a physician I can see no problem in making this a civil law too. If Baha'u'llah is truly a Manifestation of God with essential infallibility then He knows the reality of such a law and who are we to argue with it if we are a true believer? I have had experience with social drinking and abstinence and I will choose His way over my own likes and dislikes. When I first became a Baha'i I was concerned that my occasional beer or wine with a meal was forbidden but I decided to obey and the experience has taught me a little about the reality of His law. I don't make choices based on my lower nature's desires of liking or disliking the sensual feeling of things, I choose because of my desire to be obedient to Baha'u'llah and if I need to I will research science and so far I find no scientific evidence that I should disobey Baha'u'llah or in any way cast a vote for the use of alcohol in society. I well know from experience that if I do not understand something or disagree with something in the Baha'i Writings it is due to my current lack of development and that in time I will come to understand by accept it as truth and being obedient. regards, doug On Oct 13, 2008, at 2:14 AM, Number Eleven - GPEMC! wrote: > "Bill Hyman" wrote in message > news:yYydnd76GOUbWnHVnZ2dnUVZ_rDinZ2d@giganews.com... >> I would like to see prohibition laws return, but I would like to >> see them >> enforced properly. In the USA there were too many police protected >> speak >> easies during the last round. Sure organized crime increased, and >> there > was >> some violent crime, but a lot of it was gangsters killing each >> other - not > a >> great social loss. There is a much greater social loss now when >> alcohol is >> legal, including many deaths and disablements from increased traffic >> accidents. > > The social loss in prohibition days was greater. Innocent people who > drink > in moderation get poisoned when the fascists decide to ban what they > don't > understand. Only in prohibition days could you get your whiskey > laced with > lead. > >> The social cost is tremendous. Alcohol causes far more trauma >> than marijuana, which is illegal, and more than all the illegal drugs >> combined. > > Drivers are tested for alcohol, but not for other drugs. We don't know > because prohibition has driven the drug problem underground where it > can > cause the most harm by escaping measurement. > >> It is a major curse to humanity. The Lord of the Age has banned >> its use and the sooner the majority accepts Baha'u'llah's >> revelation the >> better off the world will be. > > Cigarettes cause more death and disability than alcohol ever will, > and the > Lord of the Age erred grievously to ban the lesser evil and neglect > the > greater evil. The greatest evil is abusiveness. The problem is the > abusive > people and not the religions, substances and other objects of abuse > by which > some justify the persecution of others. > >> Maybe we cannot legislate morality, but we could improve it by >> passing >> enforceable prohibition laws. Maybe the spiritual standards of >> society > are >> too low to have them enforceable at this time, but we have to start >> somewhere. Bring back prohibition! > > Spirituality has nothing to do with consumption of alcohol. Alcohol is > neither good nor evil - it is the abuse of alcohol and the > subsequent use of > alcoholism as an excuse to abuse others that is reprehensible. > > How would you like it if religion was banned just because abusive > people > also use religion as an excuse to abuse the rights of others? > > It is this kind of question that defines spirituality, and > spirituality has > nothing to do with the kind of blindly imitated bigotry that is > refuted by > every glass of wine consumed in moderation. Alcohol abuse is the > exception > and not the rule of alcohol consumption, and those who abuse alcohol > are > just as abusive when they are sober. > > One more question, if you take away alcohol, how do you do so without > harming those whose diets include red wine and/or amaro in the correct > amounts? > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the number@timothycasey.info to email. > Philosophical Essays: http://timothycasey.info > Speed Reading: http://speed-reading-comprehension.com > Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, > Security. > Science & Geology: http://geologist-1011.com; http:// > geologist-1011.net > Technical & Web Design: http://web-design-1011.com > -- > GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC > The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. > If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM > Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer > today! > > > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Oct 14 01:21:40 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 053D14B0C95 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:21:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5m8kEYP2Qrx1 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:21:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id DF0454B0CA0; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:21:38 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:21:45 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 14:02:49 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=sMupmnFN8PTJn49PzP4IPN6Aw1YibMzNvGj6bDxAboYdIZM6/RhSNzvkrdt/taQ1i3sL9QDLHP05Xds+jhChmlSRS5Ewo1t/SPAuMae+dFn7asLAyYbsEqOzUX+6PKw17LQ2z3jsJbOUaXGUg9VojTXWOFIo3jFojt03210oyXI= ; X-YMail-OSG: IrTmW7oVM1nnCCyteTPVMggvFECM6FBJAnxnZbMc528xmQ3Ebi13dC5Q2qYNIAyZr9oJ.pzBEGTuYJvdmQu27kaSYzr.Y29injfQIzilQ9KjVQf0hKkgRp8hfqaeURZz0u_1t0ZQ2eo4wTRU6eNkizX3EI27uGFQcmn5PGk85ZHez7LDN5mrnlsdFLD1 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 14:02:34 -0400 References: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-0MwcCBPdV5flpgPTqM9SoQXyc8oOi03Ucx/mXGxq0IyMP3rJ50YeO3o4fDgnT5U8Ckc2Fs21Vbrh0lm!Uuuv+Z3ulJOHTaeCnWlvam05we6yq34vInGMKZwPBtEKrRMMeGBFxCK3q69ZkJHd9y5mZqqffw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25477 Hi Mike- I think maybe there is some confusion and misunderstanding about this due to the limitations of emails and probably my clumsy writing too so let me clarify my view. Please see my comments inserted below. On Oct 11, 2008, at 4:50 PM, mike3 wrote: > On Oct 11, 8:46 am, Douglas McAdam > wrote: >> Dear Mike- >> First of all I or any other Baha'i cannot judge the spirituality of >> another soul. That is God's job. > > It wasn't here to ask for a judgment on somebody, I was here to ask > about > something that seemed unfair, stuff that seemed, well, you know, > similar to > what those Christian preachers like to preach about. ("you don't > believe in > JESUS? You're going to BURN! Forever! A good heart is not enough, > you're > still damned and there is NO ESCAPE!") I was not directing my comment to you, I was simply saying that none of us can judge the spirituality of another soul. I think you are misunderstanding the quote for it clearly states the twin duties. Obviously if a person has never been confronted by Baha'u'llah, has never had an opportunity to reject or embrace His Faith then to me that person will not be rejected by God. The Baha'i Writings seem quite clear that all souls go forward to the next stage of development or spiritual world and we only take with us the perfections we have acquired in this world and all will receive the Mercy of God. > > >> All I have done is produced quotes >> relative to the discussion. However I can offer my understanding of > >> that quote, but in the context of other quotes relative to the twin >> duties. My understanding is that if a person is confronted by the > >> Manifestation and rejects Him then no matter how loving and kind they >> may be their acts are useless in the eyes of God. > > What about where they've never even _heard_ of the messenger? Ever, > in their whole life? They are not accountable, according to my understanding of the Writings. They will go forward and then be faced with the reality of God and His Manifestation and be given God's Mercy. In this world we don't judge a child sinful if that child has not had an opportunity to learn right from wrong. > > >> Here is the >> specific portion of the quote relevant to this - >> >>>> Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained >>>> unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, >>>> though >>>> he be the author of every righteous deed. >> >> That seems pretty clear does it not? >> > > So then it would *seem to suggest* that the vast majority of people, > who > have _not_ achieved that duty, would be lost, no matter how good. > That's > the thing that I'm hung up on, it doesn't seem right, to condemn > 6.494 billion people like that. Because they've never even _heard_ of > the > Baha'i Faith, Baha'u'llah, etc. That's what doesn't seem fair or right > to me, > it just doesn't seem right. I don 't read it that way. Course I'm also putting that quote in the context of many others regarding the progress of the soul in this and the next world. Supposing we look at this as if it was academic education instead of spiritual development. We know there is an education system, teachers, etc. but yet we choose to not avail ourselves of it, or maybe we choose to only go through elementary school, maybe only high school and some choose to better themselves by attending college and getting a degree. Who is benefitting the most? Those who denied full education or those who went through the entire process? Does society benefit the most from those who are ignorant or from those who are better educated. Now to this add the process of spiritual education. Who benefits the most those who have spiritual education or those without, even though they may have full academic education? Obviously if we decide not to avail ourselves of both types of education we are holding ourselves back from a fuller development and will enter the next world in a sort of crippled state. God did not do this to us we did by making the bad choices when we had the opportunity. Only those who have heard of Baha'u'llah and rejected Him are the ones that are holding themselves back is how I read the quote. How am I supposed to relate to those who have rejected Baha'u'llah? Well I treat them with love and respect as any creature of God but I spend my time trying to teach more receptive souls. I pray for them. I do not judge them. I know that in time there is a chance the Message will have its full effect. regards, doug From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Tue Oct 14 01:21:54 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 184154B0CA0 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:21:54 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q7HUmPg45ykf for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:21:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 727204B0CA2; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:21:52 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:22:06 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 15:54:40 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: mikeran37@yahoo.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 12:54:02 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: 64g2000hsu.googlegroups.com; posting-host=76.214.135.108; posting-account=M_40MwoAAACezPB6m4wCKE4LAJjMzCeb User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KpTUy-000689-A4 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-0.302, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 2.30) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-JaGfBQTSHAT3Yun81HipYswa/bP1xV9Oqz8yxlP+W15gLlOVWDtCj7WVK2AroG0a9M1cDuDMktXho85!2fIrWIjkbPLtqMP5Ju1LKgWTBV53ZBq1PetRXu/rOAkfEZ2F8jia+u6WSL3O1bniz8WBNBHRbw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25478 >> Alcohol has now been >> classified as a carcinogen on it's own. >I got that, but what I found said at three or more drinks a day. >Please show me otherwise. In light of this statement I must assume that you're not getting it. A carcinogen is a carcinogen, the more the merrier. If you cut back from 4 packs of cigarrettes a day to one pack, yes, you'll decrease you're risk of lung cancer? but you still risk lung cancer. It's the same with alcohol. The advisement to cut back to less drinking is exactly that. Here is a citation of relevance. "Alcohol as a cause of Cancer May 2008 Authors Samara Lewis1, Suzanne Campbell2, Emma Proudfoot2, Ad=E8le Weston2, Trish Cotter1, James F Bishop1 The risk alcohol poses for cancer is large. Four standard drinks a day increase the cancer risk by 22% or with eight standard drinks a day the cancer risk increases by 90%. For each standard drink per day,the risk of breast cancer specifically increases by around 10%. The NSW Cancer Plan 2007=962010, places significant emphasis on effective cancer prevention with a key goal to promote behaviour to reduce risks and thus avoid cancer6. This report suggests that encouraging a reduction of alcohol consumption should be part of our strategy for cancer prevention in NSW. In 2006, 32.8% of NSW adults drank alcohol at levels which were classified as risky by the 2001 NHMRC guidelines7. Currently, only 41% of NSW adults are aware that drinking too much alcohol can cause cancer and 33% reject this notion outright8. Information about the association between alcohol and cancer needs to be more widely available so that the public can make informed choices about their behaviour. We hope the information in this report will encourage people to make positive changes to their lives so as to improve their health and subsequently reduce their risk of cancer." http://www.cancerinstitute.org.au/cancer_inst/publications/pdfs/pm-2008-03_ alcohol-as-a-cause-of-cancer.pdf I encourage you to read the whole paper. >What I found came from those with head and neck cancer in people >with a l ong history of three drinks or more a day who did not >smoke. But I am wil ling to >consider other studies, if there are >any, that say something diff erent. I like to keep an open mind. I don't get that feeling here that you really appreciate the meaning of a carcinogen. Here's a study on breast cancer: "Alcohol and Breast Cancer in Women A Pooled Analysis of Cohort Studies Stephanie A. Smith-Warner, PhD; Donna Spiegelman, ScD; Shiaw-Shyuan Yaun, MPH; Piet A. van den Brandt, PhD; Aaron R. Folsom, MD; R. Alexandra Goldbohm, PhD; Saxon Graham, PhD; Lars Holmberg, MD, PhD; Geoffrey R. Howe, PhD; James R. Marshall, PhD; Anthony B. Miller, MB, BCh; John D. Potter, MB, BS, PhD; Frank E. Speizer, MD; Walter C. Willett, MD; Alicja Wolk, DMSc; David J. Hunter, MB, BS JAMA. 1998;279:535-540. Objective.=97 To assess the risk of invasive breast cancer associated with total and beverage-specific alcohol consumption and to evaluate whether dietary and nondietary factors modify the association. Data Sources.=97 We included in these analyses 6 prospective studies that had at least 200 incident breast cancer cases, assessed long-term intake of food and nutrients, and used a validated diet assessment instrument. The studies were conducted in Canada, the Netherlands, Sweden, and the United States. Alcohol intake was estimated by food frequency questionnaires in each study. The studies included a total of 322647 women evaluated for up to 11 years, including 4335 participants with a diagnosis of incident invasive breast cancer. Data Extraction.=97 Pooled analysis of primary data using analyses consistent with each study's original design and the random-effects model for the overall pooled analyses. Data Synthesis.=97 For alcohol intakes less than 60 g/d (reported by >99% of participants), risk increased linearly with increasing intake; the pooled multivariate relative risk for an increment of 10 g/d of alcohol (about 0.75-1 drink) was 1.09 (95% confidence interval [CI], 1.04-1.13; P for heterogeneity among studies, .71). The multivariate- adjusted relative risk for total alcohol intakes of 30 to less than 60 g/d (about 2-5 drinks) vs nondrinkers was 1.41 (95% CI, 1.18-1.69). Limited data suggested that alcohol intakes of at least 60 g/d were not associated with further increased risk. The specific type of alcoholic beverage did not strongly influence risk estimates. The association between alcohol intake and breast cancer was not modified by other factors. Conclusions.=97 Alcohol consumption is associated with a linear increase in breast cancer incidence in women over the range of consumption reported by most women. Among women who consume alcohol regularly, reducing alcohol consumption is a potential means to reduce breast cancer risk." The key here is to understand what dose dependent and linear means? In this case, it is analagous to cigarette smoking. Sure you can smoke less per day and dramatically reduce your risk of lung cancer, but can you? The problem here is that epidemiology looks at a society as a whole, and not the individual. You may be blessed with that special gene that makes you impervious to cancer, or you may have the p53 mutation which means you better watch everything you do or you will for sure get cancer. Shouldn't people be advised if something is a carcinogen? Shouldn't they have the right to know if they have a family history of cancer, that drinking alcohol could put them over the top and lead to a miserable death. What's wrong with educating people. Kent would have us all believe that this is some conspiratorial Baha'i propaganda at work. But here it is the world health organization publishing this information, not me: Since you're into reading the primary literature here is another question: Why doesn't the american cancer society advocate the people who don't drink to take up drinking? After all, it's good for your heart isn't it? They advise heavy drinkers >2 per day that they risk cancer but they stop just short of telling moderate drinkers (1-2 per day) to stop drinking? But they don't advise non-drinkers to start for the health benefits and advise people to consult with their physician. Why? >I have little doubt that the cost to our society... >And what little doubt you have, would that be based on other studies? Ones that talk about cardio-vascular health in moderate drinkers, say, >no more than five drinks a week? "Alcohol and Breast Cancer Review of Epidemiologic and Experimental Evidence and Potential Mechanisms Keith W. Singletary, PhD; Susan M. Gapstur, PhD JAMA. 2001;286:2143-2151. The association of alcohol consumption with increased risk for breast cancer has been a consistent finding in a majority of epidemiologic studies during the past 2 decades. Herein, we summarize information on this association from human and animal investigations, with particular reference to epidemiologic data published since 1995. Increased estrogen and androgen levels in women consuming alcohol appear to be important mechanisms underlying the association. Other plausible mechanisms include enhanced mammary gland susceptibility to carcinogenesis, increased mammary carcinogen DNA damage, and greater metastatic potential of breast cancer cells, processes for which the magnitude likely depends on the amount of alcohol consumed. Susceptibility to the breast cancer=96enhancing effect of alcohol may also be affected by other dietary factors (such as low folate intake), lifestyle habits (such as use of hormone replacement therapy), or biological characteristics (such as tumor hormone receptor status). Additional progress in understanding alcohol's enhancing effect on breast cancer will depend on a better understanding of the interactions between alcohol and other risk factors and on additional insights into the multiple biological mechanisms involved. " So is JAMA (that's Journal of American Medical Association for tim) a Baha'i controlled propaganda factory? Are they lying to us? Gee willikers, maybe the rise in breast cancer in women could very well relate to an increased proportion of women drinking in our society. Notice that for 2 decades you don't hear about alcohol and breast cancer in the mainstream media. In all of your superior reading and research you dont mention breast cancer? I wonder why? I guess they're busy suppressing the Baha'i propaganda. >I don't drink myself, but that doesn't mean I can't be fair to >those who do. There is nothing I have seen harmful about a single But apparently you believe that forewarning people that something is a carcinogen is somehow propoganda. Provide people with the facts and let people make their own choice. Here's a question for you: How long did it take our own american cancer society to demonstrate that smoking could cause lung cancer? "The Postwar Era During the late 1940s, the American Cancer Society began to share, with other national health organizations in such countries as England and Sweden, accumulated evidence regarding the relation between tobacco smoking and cancer. Spurred on by this evidence, the ACS funded a case-control study of lung-cancer patients and patients without lung cancer at the Washington School of Medicine in St. Louis, Missouri. The study found that 94 percent of the patients diagnosed with lung cancer were smokers of cigarettes. Following up on the conclusions to this study, a more comprehensive investigation was conducted during the early 1950s involving over 200,000 interviews, questionnaires, and clinical research. On June 21, 1954, a representative of the ACS told the American Medical Association convention in San Francisco that those people who smoked two packs of cigarettes a day were 25 times more likely to get lung cancer than nonsmokers and, in addition, that smokers were twice as likely to have a heart attack as nonsmokers. The report created front page news not only across the United States but in Asia and Europe as well. Cigarette sales dropped precipitously. The tobacco companies responded by developing and marketing a safer product, namely, filter-tipped cigarettes. But the die had been cast, so to speak, and the ACS and tobacco firms began the fight that lasts to this day. In 1959, the Society tried to use its influence to persuade the U.S. Surgeon General to warn smokers about the risk of cancer, but bureaucratic red tape prevented a statement from being given, and two years later a version which was summarily ignored appeared in the Journal of the American Medical Association. The ACS would not give up, however, and was instrumental in the Surgeon General's Report that was published in 1964, which stated that "cigarette smoking is a health hazard." As its influence began to spread around the world, the ACS was active in promoting government campaigns against smoking in England, Sweden, and Norway. In 1965, the ACS won a hard-fought battle in convincing the U.S. Congress to pass the first law regulating the labeling of cigarettes, including the now ubiquitous warning: "Caution: Cigarette smoking may be hazardous to your health." By 1971, Congress was persuaded to prohibit all cigarette advertising on both radio and television. " The similarity between then and now is uncanny. >drink occassionally. I would never do it myself, but I don't >think God w ill strike anyone, Baha'i or non-Baha'i, dead for it. > ...and a co- > carcinogen? >The study I read said that those who both drank and smoked had >higher inc idents of head and neck cancer. Kent, in all of your reading you don't mention breast cancer? Why not? Maybe women don't matter. Perhaps in conjunction with alcohol induced ED I could see this happening. Spare me the tit for tat. The evidence on this subject is so overwhelmingly damning, I could and maybe should write a book. The simple point is that you conceded alcohol is a carcinogen. You are willing to accept the statement that below two drinks per day eliminates your cancer risk, while going above two per day magically transforms the same beer into a carcinogen? God help you if have that extra drop ;-). The absurdity of such belief defys all logic, where's your sense? "The red wine phenolics piceatannol and myricetin act as agonists for estrogen receptor in human breast cancer cells M Maggiolini, A G Recchia, D Bonofiglio, S Catalano, A Vivacqua, A Carpino1, V Rago1, R Rossi and S And=F21 Departments of Pharmaco-Biology and 1 Cell Biology, University of Calabria, 87030 Rende (Cs), Italy (Requests for offprints should be addressed to S And=F2; Email: sebastiano.ando@unical.it) Previous epidemiological reports have suggested that red wine intake is associated with beneficial health effects due to the ability of certain phytochemical components to exert estrogen-like activity. It has been also documented that estrogens induce the proliferation of hormone-dependent breast cancer cells by binding to and transactivating estrogen receptor (ER) , which in turn interacts with responsive DNA sequences located within the promoter region of target genes. In order to provide further insight into the positive association between wine consumption and the incidence of breast carcinoma in postmenopausal women, we have evaluated the estrogenic properties of two abundant wine-derived compounds, named piceatannol (PIC) and myricetin (MYR), using as model systems the hormone- sensitive MCF7 and the endocrine-independent SKBR3 breast cancer cells. On the basis of our experimental evidence PIC and MYR may contribute to the estrogenicity of red wine since: (1) they transactivate endogenous ER; (2) they activate the agonist-dependent activation function (AF) 2 of ER and ER=DF in the context of the Gal4 chimeric proteins; (3) they rapidly induce the nuclear immunodetection of ER; (4) they regulate the expression of diverse estrogen target genes; (5) they compete with 17=DF-estradiol for binding to ER and ER=DF; and =96 as a biological counterpart of the aforementioned abilities =96 (6) they exert stimulatory effects on the proliferation of MCF7 cells. Hence, the estrogenic activity of PIC and MYR might be considered at least as a potential factor in the association of red wine intake and breast tumors, particularly in postmenopausal women. " oops there I go again, hey, not to change the subject, but I found this interesting: Drug and alcohol abuse - Even fairly low levels of consumption are detrimental to performance, quality and safety As greater knowledge has been acquired over recent years, through the increased volume of research carried out on the subject, it has become increasingly evident that workplace problems associated with substance abuse are not confined to alcoholics and drug addicts. This is particularly true in the case of alcohol. While, at the individual level, alcoholics and other heavy drinkers are the most likely to cause accidents, their numbers in the workplace are relatively small. In comparison, the relative risk of an individual moderate or occasional drinker causing a problem associated with the consumption of alcohol is much lower. However, in collective terms, simply because their numbers are much higher, moderate and occasional drinkers account for the largest proportion of alcohol-related problems in the workplace. Further investigations have also confirmed that a relatively high level of performance impairment can occur after the consumption of even fairly low quantities of alcohol. According to a study carried out in 1990, when airline pilots had to perform routine tasks in a simulator under three alcohol test conditions, it was found that: before the ingestion of any alcohol, 10 per cent of them could not perform all the operations correctly; after reaching a blood alcohol concentration of 0.10/100ml, 89 per cent could not perform all the operations correctly; and fourteen hours later, after all the alcohol had left their systems, 68 per cent could not perform all the operations correctly. (Modell and Mountz, "The problem of alcohol use by pilots", in New England Journal of Medicine, 1990) These findings support the establishment of broad-based prevention and problem management programmes, rather than concentrating principally on the identification and rehabilitation of heavy drinkers and alcoholics. Similar research is being conducted for drug users and may well show the same results. http://www.ilo.org/public/english/protection/safework/drug/impiss.htm You don't need to look far for this stuff, it just calls out. "Alcohol in hepatocellular cancer. Voigt MD. 4553E JCP, 200 Hawkins Drive, Iowa City, IA 52245, USA. Michael- Voigt@Uiowa.edu Hepatocellular cancer accounts for almost half a million cancer deaths a year, with an escalating incidence in the Western world. Alcohol has long been recognized as a major risk factor for cancer of the liver and of other organs including oropharynx, larynx, esophagus, and possibly the breast and colon. There is compelling epidemiologic data confirming the increased risk of cancer associated with alcohol consumption, which is supported by animal experiments. Cancer of the liver associated with alcohol usually occurs in the setting of cirrhosis. Alcohol may act as a cocarcinogen, and has strong synergistic effects with other carcinogens including hepatitis B and C, aflatoxin, vinyl chloride, obesity, and diabetes mellitus. Acetaldehyde, the main metabolite of alcohol, causes hepatocellular injury, and is an important factor in causing increased oxidant stress, which damages DNA. Alcohol affects nutrition and vitamin metabolism, causing abnormalities of DNA methylation. Abnormalities of DNA methylation, a key pathway of epigenetic gene control, lead to cancer. Other nutritional and metabolic effects, for example on vitamin A metabolism, also play a key role in hepatocarcinogenesis. Alcohol enhances the effects of environmental carcinogens directly and by contributing to nutritional deficiency and impairing immunological tumor surveillance. This review summarizes the epidemiologic evidence for the role of alcohol in hepatocellular cancer, and discusses the mechanisms involved in the promotion of cancer." And you were saying?? "What I found came from those with head and neck cancer in people with a long history of three drinks or more a day who did not smoke. But I am willing to consider other studies, if there are any, that say something different. I like to keep an open mind. " Really, so last I checked the liver and breast aren't in your head or neck. but maybe you want to argue that too? If you bother to read the citations above, the breast cancer article lists 1 drink per day as a causitive agent. And with half of our country as qualifying as obese, you'd have to wonder just how much alcohol can they tolerate? From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 15 01:03:44 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B3DA4B090F for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 01:03:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bLZqqAP2a6DV for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 01:03:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 30E1E4B07EF; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 01:03:43 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 00:03:54 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 23:11:13 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Prohibition Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 20:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: c22g2000prc.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kpwmz-0005Lq-FK X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-EImsRUH5abYyrlPXIoFqFZnRHidWPlbXYfo34ILjcXAxA6H2F6wmBGebqMQChFqnZ0lu1/8TNFn1yC2!RBcd7Bzlcw6heU50lkUIT1JqctMcUNmjFgD42ooXcMOsbBcrsgjsCuvugMLUBpdL5xVM4dn09w== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25479 > Reprehensible but it had nothing to do with prohibition laws. Sure it does. Just because the law says "wear seatbelts" or some such thing, it is still a law and can easily have unintended consequences. I mean, if we had zero tolerance for those who do not wear seatbelts we will have drivers blowing away cops because they can't go back to jail for not wearing their seatbelts. It is not an intended consequence of the law, but it definitely is related to the law. Just as using lead piping to distill alcohol is an unintended consequence of prohibition, and your denial seems uninformed. --Kent On Oct 13, 3:11=A0am, Bill Hyman wrote: > Tim wrote: > > Only in prohibition days could you get your whiskey laced with > > lead. > > Reprehensible but it had nothing to do with prohibition laws. > > > Cigarettes cause more death and disability than alcohol ever will, and the > > Lord of the Age erred grievously to ban the lesser evil and neglect the > > greater evil. > > The Lord of the Age does not err. Smokers are more likely to kill themsel ves > than others. =A0Although smoking is not against Divine Law, I would like to > see prohibition laws for smoking too. My understanding is that smoking wa s > against the law for Babi's. Smoking was so prevalent in Persia that > non-smokers were persecuted as being Babi's or Baha'is and Baha'u'llah > allowed smoking to protect those non-believers. > > > Spirituality has nothing to do with consumption of alcohol. > > I agree, but spirituality has a lot to do with those whose duty is suppos ed > to be enforcing the laws. Read what I wrote again, with this in mind, and > you will understand my meaning. > > > One more question, if you take away alcohol, how do you do so without > > harming those whose diets include red wine and/or amaro in the correct > > amounts? > > There is no problem if the diets are medically prescribed. > > Bill From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 15 01:04:18 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 842564B0BBE for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 01:04:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MoCAMvBX7u67 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 01:04:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 49F604B09FB; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 01:04:16 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 00:04:11 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 23:17:33 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 20:17:23 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: g17g2000prg.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kpwt7-0005qv-SD X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.29, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, BODY_ENHANCEMENT 0.31) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: <34WdnQZActBR5GjVnZ2dnUVZ_vzinZ2d@giganews.com> X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-sFrzE8M6PytpCOHmHCofHPYK4WLMvvpFFMtZWsctFrPQoB01y6sLD5864i1RV7GGxmdgnJwYOESAUOK!EpzgIGLXg8VcbQDvPDL4OrFKSr3WPHV5T7lLMJF/8IPZyP/21WNermS4p0kM4aTI2k8VVaau9w== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25480 Hi Mike, > A > carcinogen is a carcinogen Not according to the studies you cite. "The draft guidelines recommend that for low risk of both immediate and long-term harm from drinking, men and women should not exceed two standard drinks in any one day." Also "drinking too much alcohol can cause cancer". > Limited data suggested that alcohol intakes of at least 60 g/d were > not associated with further increased risk. Why would you ask me to investigate further when it so clearly states what I have been saying all along: A single drink occassionally by a non-Baha'i is just fine. --Kent Oct 13, 3:54=A0pm, mikera...@yahoo.com wrote: > >> Alcohol has now been > >> classified as a carcinogen on it's own. > >I got that, but what I found said at three or more drinks a day. > >Please show me otherwise. > > In light of this statement I must assume that you're not getting it. A > carcinogen is a carcinogen, the more the merrier. If you cut back from > 4 packs of cigarrettes a day to one pack, yes, you'll decrease you're > risk of lung cancer? but you still risk lung cancer. It's the same > with alcohol. > > =A0The advisement to cut back to less drinking is exactly that. > > Here is a citation of relevance. > > "Alcohol as a cause of Cancer > May 2008 > Authors > Samara Lewis1, Suzanne Campbell2, Emma Proudfoot2, Ad=E8le Weston2, > Trish > Cotter1, James F Bishop1 > > The risk alcohol poses for cancer is large. Four standard drinks a day > increase the cancer risk by 22% > or with eight standard drinks a day the cancer risk increases by 90%. > For each standard drink per day,the risk of breast cancer specifically > increases by around 10%. > > The NSW Cancer Plan 2007=962010, places significant emphasis on > effective cancer prevention with a key > goal to promote behaviour to reduce risks and thus avoid cancer6. This > report suggests that > encouraging a reduction of alcohol consumption should be part of our > strategy for cancer prevention > in NSW. In 2006, 32.8% of NSW adults drank alcohol at levels which > were classified as risky by the > 2001 NHMRC guidelines7. Currently, only 41% of NSW adults are aware > that drinking too much > alcohol can cause cancer and 33% reject this notion outright8. > Information about the association > between alcohol and cancer needs to be more widely available so that > the public can make informed > choices about their behaviour. We hope the information in this report > will encourage people to make > positive changes to their lives so as to improve their health and > subsequently reduce their risk of > cancer." > > http://www.cancerinstitute.org.au/cancer_inst/publications/pdfs/pm-20... > alcohol-as-a-cause-of-cancer.pdf > > I encourage you to read the whole paper. > > >What I found came from those with head and neck cancer in people >with a l > > ong history of three drinks or more a day who did not >smoke. =A0But I am wil > ling to >consider other studies, if there are >any, that say something di ff > erent. =A0I like to keep an open mind. > > =A0I don't get that feeling here that you really appreciate the meaning > of a carcinogen. Here's a study on breast cancer: > > "Alcohol and Breast Cancer in Women > A Pooled Analysis of Cohort Studies > > Stephanie A. Smith-Warner, PhD; Donna Spiegelman, ScD; Shiaw-Shyuan > Yaun, MPH; Piet A. van den Brandt, PhD; Aaron R. Folsom, MD; R. > Alexandra Goldbohm, PhD; Saxon Graham, PhD; Lars Holmberg, MD, PhD; > Geoffrey R. Howe, PhD; James R. Marshall, PhD; Anthony B. Miller, MB, > BCh; John D. Potter, MB, BS, PhD; Frank E. Speizer, MD; Walter C. > Willett, MD; Alicja Wolk, DMSc; David J. Hunter, MB, BS > > JAMA. 1998;279:535-540. > > Objective.=97 To assess the risk of invasive breast cancer associated > with total and beverage-specific alcohol consumption and to evaluate > whether dietary and nondietary factors modify the association. > > Data Sources.=97 We included in these analyses 6 prospective studies > that had at least 200 incident breast cancer cases, assessed long-term > intake of food and nutrients, and used a validated diet assessment > instrument. The studies were conducted in Canada, the Netherlands, > Sweden, and the United States. Alcohol intake was estimated by food > frequency questionnaires in each study. The studies included a total > of 322647 women evaluated for up to 11 years, including 4335 > participants with a diagnosis of incident invasive breast cancer. > > Data Extraction.=97 Pooled analysis of primary data using analyses > consistent with each study's original design and the random-effects > model for the overall pooled analyses. > > Data Synthesis.=97 For alcohol intakes less than 60 g/d (reported by>99% of participants), risk increased linearly with increasing intake; > > the pooled multivariate relative risk for an increment of 10 g/d of > alcohol (about 0.75-1 drink) was 1.09 (95% confidence interval [CI], > 1.04-1.13; P for heterogeneity among studies, .71). The multivariate- > adjusted relative risk for total alcohol intakes of 30 to less than 60 > g/d (about 2-5 drinks) vs nondrinkers was 1.41 (95% CI, 1.18-1.69). > Limited data suggested that alcohol intakes of at least 60 g/d were > not associated with further increased risk. The specific type of > alcoholic beverage did not strongly influence risk estimates. The > association between alcohol intake and breast cancer was not modified > by other factors. > > Conclusions.=97 Alcohol consumption is associated with a linear increase > in breast cancer incidence in women over the range of consumption > reported by most women. Among women who consume alcohol regularly, > reducing alcohol consumption is a potential means to reduce breast > cancer risk." > > =A0The key here is to understand what dose dependent and linear means? > In this case, it is analagous to cigarette smoking. Sure you can smoke > less per day and dramatically reduce your risk of lung cancer, but can > you? The problem here is that epidemiology looks at a society as a > whole, and not the individual. You may be blessed with that special > gene that makes you impervious to cancer, or you may have the p53 > mutation which means you better watch everything you do or you will > for sure get cancer. > > =A0 =A0Shouldn't people be advised if something is a carcinogen? Shouldn' t > they have the right to know if they have a family history of cancer, > that drinking alcohol could put them over the top and lead to a > miserable death. > > =A0What's wrong with educating people. Kent would have us all believe > that this is some conspiratorial Baha'i propaganda at work. But here > it is the world health organization publishing this information, not > me: > > =A0 Since you're into reading the primary literature here is another > question: Why doesn't the american cancer society advocate the people > who don't drink to take up drinking? =A0After all, it's good for your > heart isn't it? They advise heavy drinkers >2 per day that they risk > cancer but they stop just short of telling moderate drinkers (1-2 per > day) to stop drinking? But they don't advise non-drinkers to start for > the health benefits and advise people to consult with their physician. > Why? > > >I have little doubt that the cost to our society... > >And what little doubt you have, would that be based on other studies? On es > > =A0that talk about cardio-vascular health in moderate drinkers, say, > > >no more than five drinks a week? > > "Alcohol and Breast Cancer > Review of Epidemiologic and Experimental Evidence and Potential > Mechanisms > > Keith W. Singletary, PhD; Susan M. Gapstur, PhD > > JAMA. 2001;286:2143-2151. > > The association of alcohol consumption with increased risk for breast > cancer has been a consistent finding in a majority of epidemiologic > studies during the past 2 decades. Herein, we summarize information on > this association from human and animal investigations, with particular > reference to epidemiologic data published since 1995. Increased > estrogen and androgen levels in women consuming alcohol appear to be > important mechanisms underlying the association. Other plausible > mechanisms include enhanced mammary gland susceptibility to > carcinogenesis, increased mammary carcinogen DNA damage, and greater > metastatic potential of breast cancer cells, processes for which the > magnitude likely depends on the amount of alcohol consumed. > Susceptibility to the breast cancer=96enhancing effect of alcohol may > also be affected by other dietary factors (such as low folate intake), > lifestyle habits (such as use of hormone replacement therapy), or > biological characteristics (such as tumor hormone receptor status). > Additional progress in understanding alcohol's enhancing effect on > breast cancer will depend on a better understanding of the > interactions between alcohol and other risk factors and on additional > insights into the multiple biological mechanisms involved. " > > =A0So is JAMA (that's Journal of American Medical Association for tim) a > Baha'i controlled propaganda factory? Are they lying to us? Gee > willikers, maybe the rise in breast cancer in women could very well > relate to an increased proportion of women drinking in our society. > Notice that for 2 decades you don't hear about alcohol and breast > cancer in the mainstream media. In all of your superior reading and > research you dont mention breast cancer? I wonder why? I guess they're > busy suppressing the Baha'i propaganda. > > >I don't drink myself, but that doesn't mean I can't be fair to >those wh o > > do. =A0There is nothing I have seen harmful about a single > > But apparently you believe that forewarning people that something is a > carcinogen is somehow propoganda. Provide people with the facts and > let people make their own choice. Here's a question for you: How long > did it take our own american cancer society to demonstrate that > smoking could cause lung cancer? > > "The Postwar Era > > During the late 1940s, the American Cancer Society began to share, > with other national health organizations in such countries as England > and Sweden, accumulated evidence regarding the relation between > tobacco smoking and cancer. Spurred on by this evidence, the ACS > funded a case-control study of lung-cancer patients and patients > without lung cancer at the Washington School of Medicine in St. Louis, > Missouri. The study found that 94 percent of the patients diagnosed > with lung cancer were smokers of cigarettes. Following up on the > conclusions to this study, a more comprehensive investigation was > conducted during the early 1950s involving over 200,000 interviews, > questionnaires, and clinical research. On June 21, 1954, a > representative of the ACS told the American Medical Association > convention in San Francisco that those people who smoked two packs of > cigarettes a day were 25 times more likely to get lung cancer than > nonsmokers and, in addition, that smokers were twice as likely to have > a heart attack as nonsmokers. > > > read more =BB... From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 15 01:04:21 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11F424B0BBE for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 01:04:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6wYqqiyklSB8 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 01:04:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 46EC94B0C2D; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 01:04:20 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 00:04:19 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 23:29:09 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 20:28:57 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: u40g2000pru.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kpx4H-0006Qt-VS X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-yOcdijQunvJR1C7AtNXsTxLlSO14ryVNfX6v3/iQLI+w6uShkKODSTEJbs5Eb2OPriwl9CtCJ+F40S1!6MXc8wLAjHeEeYHbjd9AwKkvHbGzDLYIXhd3ZATzlynyDdoIhQFJRQtsXotKsg/UYqPmdszorA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25481 Hi Doug, > ...how can one fallible and limited Baha'i judge whether or not > another's belief IS or is NOT the Baha'i Faith? We can't, Doug. We have to allow others to keep their differing, conflicting, sometimes nonsensical Baha'i Faiths. If someone tells us we are wrong we are within our rights to say, no, they are wrong. There is not way to clear it up, we are both Baha'is, both commanded to investigate for ourselves, both just as right as any other Baha'i. If our beliefs lead us to behavior that has to be corrected, an institution of the Faith should step in. But no institution can tell us what Baha'u'llah meant when He said "Be generous" or "read this Tablet with absolute sincerity". We have to decide those things for ourselves. The problem is that I believe I understand you quite well, and that you are clueless about what I believe. I can let you believe what you believe just fine, go ahead. But you should not tell me I am wrong without at least understanding what I am saying. The point is I just don't believe anything close to what you believe, and I am a Baha'i. You have to let me be a Baha'i, to hope I get my spiritual growth and understanding and comfort from the Baha'i Faith even though you disagree with just about everything I say. I certainly feel that way about you. If we don't allow each other to believe as we believe the Faith will never grow, it will be a homgenous bunch of wierdos forever. --Kent On Oct 13, 12:23=A0pm, Douglas McAdam wrote: > On Oct 8, 2008, at 9:04 PM, compx2 wrote: > > > And my only defense is to argue with you. =A0What you believe is the > > Baha'i Faith is NOT the Baha'i Faith. > > Does this apply to you also Kent? > I do not understand you here and I am not trying to argue with you, I =A0 > simply do not understand what you mean and how you arrive at such a =A0 > conclusion. > > =A0 In other words if you mean that what you believe is NOT the Bahai =A0 > Faith I can agree for I believe there is the divinely revealed Baha'i =A0 > Faith and then there is our interpretation of it which is fallible. =A0 =A0 > But yet, how can one fallible and limited Baha'i judge whether or not =A0 > another's belief IS or is NOT the Baha'i Faith? =A0Wouldn't this be =A0 > something for an institution to decide? > > doug From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 15 01:04:29 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 510CF4B080E for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 01:04:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ntPiLP28iSqS for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 01:04:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 84CE54B08DA; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 01:04:28 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 00:04:30 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 23:48:03 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 20:47:52 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <7uadnXpC9NqFdHHVnZ2dnUVZ_oPinZ2d@giganews.com> <8vidnR9LpoCbUG3VnZ2dnUVZ_srinZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: p10g2000prf.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KpxMd-00086L-9i X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-LrVg62Yv3CjJiLf8AwBUclVKlevrkFYe3+L7opl7pispwSiChNg0DEZm82cnQpOY2CcYX9HAfKsZGqR!YI4FKKTm5swse4PgZtYFNxv0aEwVlVKE3BfdDa/LHtvqg/NClWdReZEO5GyEcaXjfOmyjhmoNA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25482 Hi Doug, > I am saying that God has revealed laws to us historically and we then And I am saying that is not true. Murder was illegal long before Moses. If secular law were based on religious law honoring parents would be just as important as any other law. Just because religous and secular law happen to coincide in five of the ten commandments does not mean the religious law proscribed secular law. It did not. All societies have sanctions against wonton killing and dishonesty. > All the laws are important or God would not have revealed them to us. But some are much more important than others. > Consultation and avoid any negative personal remarks or insinuations. That itself is a negative personal remark and insinuation. > If Baha'is rule the Commonwealth would they then enact laws that > disagree with Baha'u'llah's laws or would they enact and enforce His > laws? Who decides this if not the divinely revealed Baha'i Institution? Why would you say that? Who said anything about disagreement? You said the future Commonwealth would enact Baha'i Law. I said not necessarily. Obviously no Commonwealth would force Baha'is to drink alcohol, but were I involved in any way, I would urge such a commonwealth to allow non-Baha'is to drink alcohol. That is what we were talking about. There is nothing in non-Baha'i use of alcohol that "disagree with Baha'u'llah's laws" and for you to say that my position disagrees with His Teachings is rather insulting. Either you aren't thinking about what I write, or you are deliberately misrepresenting what I say. > Is this command in the Aqdas Kent? Is it your belief, Doug, that Baha'is only have to follow the laws and teachings that are in the Aqdas? Why would He ask us to read the Writings if He didn't want us to do what He said to do in those Writings? >Is it referred to anywhere as a law? Is the Covenant a law? --Kent On Oct 13, 12:39=A0pm, Douglas McAdam wrote: > On Oct 12, 2008, at 10:14 PM, compx2 wrote: > > > Hi Doug, > > >> I > >> still say many of our laws today are based on the Ten Commandments... > > > Murder was illegal before Moses. =A0That is the point. =A0It seems to m e > > you are saying that civil law is based upon "Thou Shalt Not Kill". =A0I f > > that is your assertion, then one day brecking any of God's Laws will > > be just as bad as any other, right? > > Sorry but I do not follow your reasoning here. > I am saying that God has revealed laws to us historically and we then =A0 > > make our civil laws based on His Laws. =A0That does not mean we don't =A0 > ourselves concoct laws for we do but yet in a way they too are =A0 > indirectly based on His revealed laws. =A0The punishments vary according =A0 > > to the laws. =A0"Let the punishment fit the crime", is an old saying. > > > > > Because if not, then what are the important commandments? =A0What are > > the important laws of God? =A0Your argument just dies. =A0If they aren' t > > all equally important, then what, are they numbered? =A0What number is > > the law that Baha'is should not drink alcohol? =A0And how will that mak e > > it into secular law when fully half of the Ten Commandments did not > > after almost three thousand years? > > All the laws are important or God would not have revealed them to us. =A0 > > However the punishment for each is unique to either what He has =A0 > revealed or what society has determined. > > > > >> I gave > >> you quotes regarding how in the future will have a Bahai Commonwealth > >> and that would mean we would have civil laws based on Divine Laws > >> revealed by Baha'u'llah > > > It would mean that Baha'is rule the commonwealth, but that is all it > > means. =A0Unless you have a quote saying that the laws of the > > commonwealth will be based on Divine Law and I missed it. > > As I said before, the Laws of God have throughout history been =A0 > translated into civil laws in many cases. > If Baha'is rule the Commonwealth would they then enact laws that =A0 > disagree with Baha'u'llah's laws or would they enact and enforce His =A0 > laws? =A0Who decides this if not the divinely revealed Baha'i Institution ? > > > > >> I wonder how other Baha'is would > >> interpret the quotes I offered. > > > You think we should vote? > > No, I think we should discuss this in terms of the principle of Bahai =A0 > > Consultation and avoid any negative personal remarks or insinuations. =A0 > > Is that your understanding of Baha'i consultation? > > > > >> ... it is not a law. > > > How is a command not a law? > > Is this command in the Aqdas Kent? =A0Is it referred to anywhere as a law ? > > God bless, > doug From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 15 01:04:40 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE12A4B080E for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 01:04:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2jUTJooIiSt6 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 01:04:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 880414B0A07; Wed, 15 Oct 2008 01:04:39 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 00:04:49 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 00:07:03 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 21:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: w24g2000prd.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kpxf2-0000u0-Rw X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-O1w30Mv2+SFF0rJSbpxa3pLqlLlybIq7YqSyibeOJl4+4tyEMjMwfw8YMlWMjVohzAns7HUFfof1Jsm!F2KpkCmMyFgy8bfzLdbgJIKep+sph3REaGFsNtvLGcbHcmZi5yrWAkDg5QXKfNXruZyyiuzj1A== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25483 Hi Doug, >That is two duties, i.e. recognition and obedience. Yes, of course. >Yet Kent this is what the quote says -It clearly states -- Yes it does, it is very clear. > I did not say this Baha'u'llah did so your disagreement would have to > be with him not me. I don't disagree with Baha'u'llah. He did not say " ...if a person is confronted by the Manifestation and rejects Him then no matter how loving and kind they may be their acts are useless in the eyes of God " you said it. I don't disagree with what Baha'u'llah said, I disagree with what you said, quoted above. "Why not write an ABM for an opinion." How would that help? I would just get another opinion. There is no clergy in the Baha'i Faith, so the understanding I have should be based on my own independent investigation. Isn't that your belief too, Doug? > Why don't you gain the consultation of a > divine institution if you are so worried about this? I am so worried because you say such things here and no one but me supplies a reasonable explanation for how such words from Baha'u'llah can be anything but intolerant. You make it seem as though my religion believes " ...if a person is confronted by the Manifestation and rejects Him then no matter how loving and kind they may be their acts are useless in the eyes of God." > What do the Writings say about this Kent? Is there any chance the > Faith will deteriorate as you say? The Writings don't say what you say they say. > So in effect when you judge me intolerant you are offering your > authoritative opinion based on what you call YOUR religion and I'm > talking about the Baha'i Religion of which I will admit I am still a > work in process. I am saying that your interpretation of the Words of Baha'u'llah is plainly intolerant. You are welcomed to your interpretation, but I don't share it. I am offended, as you are offended, but that doesn't change the fact that your interpretation of those words fits the definition of intolerance. --Kent On Oct 13, 12:56=A0pm, Douglas McAdam wrote: > On Oct 12, 2008, at 10:38 PM, compx2 wrote: > > > Hi Doug, > > >> So what does that quote say Kent? > > > .... recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the > > Fountain of His =A0laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the > > Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this > > duty hath attained unto all good... > > That is two duties, i.e. recognition and obedience. > > > > > That is a far cry from Doug: " ...if a person is confronted by the > > Manifestation and rejects Him then no matter how loving and kind they > > may be their acts are useless in the eyes of God. " > > Yet Kent this is what the quote says -It clearly states -- > =A0 =A0"Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso =A0 > is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every =A0 > righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime =A0 > station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance =A0 > of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are =A0 > inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other." > > I did not say this Baha'u'llah did so your disagreement would have to =A0 > be with him not me. =A0Why not write an ABM for an opinion. > > > It is my duty, my first duty, to recognize God on earth. =A0If the > > Baha'i Faith keeps moving in this totalitarian, intolerant, whimsical > > direction it will not represent much about God at all anymore. =A0It > > fails in many ways to manifest God on earth now. =A0But that does not > > absolve anyone, especially not me, from my duty to find Him and > > recognize His power and devote myself to it. > > Huh? =A0I don't see the Baha'i Faith moving in the direction you think. =A0 > My goodness how can you come up with such conclusions is beyond me. =A0 > Just because you disagree with me does not mean the Baha'i Faith is =A0 > moving in this direction. =A0Why don't you gain the consultation of a =A0 > divine institution if you are so worried about this? > > > > > It is not something we do once and are done with it. =A0It is a constan t > > struggle to find God wherever you are, whatever you are doing. =A0It is > > everyone's duty all the time. > > I find it a constant struggle to obey having found God and His current =A0 > Manifestation in the first place. > > > > > It has nothing to do with the name "Baha'u'llah" or "Baha'i", it is > > God's Manifestation, His Existence, His Being on earth. =A0That is the > > responsibility, the duty I have as a Baha'i, and if I had to say so, > > your intolerance is telling of the fact that you have missed that > > Mark. > > I am only intolerant of your constant habit of making negative =A0 > personal remarks about me, or anyone who disagrees with you. =A0Now you =A0 > are insinuating that I am not a Baha'i in good standing. =A0How can the =A0 > Mods put up with this kind of thing is beyond me. > > > > > Of course it is not my job to judge. > > Yet you are doing it all the time in connection with me personally and =A0 > as you mentioned above and in different other posts your =A0 > dissatisfaction with the Baha'i community at large. > > > > > > > > >> What about a CB =A0who rejects Baha'u'llah and His > >> Faith? > > > Working against a group who sincerely believes they have humanity's > > best interest at heart, a group like the Baha'is, is another > > indication that the person has missed God and His Signs and His > > Attributes on earth. > > >> Should we shun them or tolerate them? > > > We should obey the institutions of the Faith if we want to remain > > Baha'is. =A0But should the Baha'i Faith become stacked with intolerant > > slime buckets we will be on our own again, like we were before the > > Baha'i Revelation. =A0At some future point beyond 1000 years all of the > > good servants of God will leave the Baha'i Faith. > > What do the Writings say about this Kent? =A0Is there any chance the =A0 > Faith will deteriorate as you say? > > > > > But no matter what religion we belong to we are never absolved of that > > constant, all important duty to God. > > Yes. > > > > >> Why do you think your interpretation is authoritative and thus you =A0 > >> can > >> judge your fellow Baha'is? > > > I didn't say my interpretation was authoritative, I said yours was > > intolerant. =A0Further that opinion you expressed, I would be ashamed t o > > try to defend it in polite company. > > So in effect when you judge me intolerant you are offering your =A0 > authoritative opinion based on what you call YOUR religion and I'm =A0 > talking about the Baha'i Religion of which I will admit I am still a =A0 > work in process. > > > > >> This too is another subject that should be dropped in my opinion. > > > Apparently you are ashamed of it as well. > > Yes, I am ashamed that non-Baha'is are being exposed to this kind of =A0 > ad hominem attacks and cannot understand why the Mods are putting up =A0 > with it and so I will not be responding to your negative personal =A0 > remarks any further. =A0If you wish to discuss this issue of Alcohol, I =A0 > will be glad to accommodate by following the principle of Baha'i =A0 > consultation only. > > God bless, > d > > > > > > > --Kent > > > On Oct 11, 8:06 pm, Douglas McAdam > > wrote: > >> On Oct 11, 2008, at 1:59 PM, compx2 wrote: > > >>> You: > >>>> ...if a person is confronted by the > >>>> Manifestation and rejects Him then no matter how loving and kind =A0 > >>>> they > >>>> may be their acts are useless in the eyes of God. > > >>> If I thought that quote said what you think it says I would fight > >>> tooth and nail against the Baha'i Faith. =A0What in intolerant =A0 > >>> thought! > >>> If this were the Baha'i Faith I would not just reject it, I would > >>> fight it with everything in me. > > >> So what does that quote say Kent? =A0It is plain English isn't it. =A0 I > > >> gave you the sentence several times. =A0 Please tell me your > >> interpretation if you disagree. > >> Also keep in mind that I qualified what I said by also saying it is > >> not my job to judge the spiritual condition of a soul it is God's > >> job. =A0I am just offering the quote relevant to statements you make > >> about intolerance. =A0What about a CB =A0who rejects Baha'u'llah and H is > > >> Faith? =A0Should we shun them or tolerate them? > > >>> God is not spiteful, does not reject people, does not pronounce a =A0 > >>> life > >>> "useless". =A0Such a conception of God is, in my considered opinion, > >>> petty, simplistic, foolish. > > >> Well there again one could make a strong case =A0from the Word of God > >> about God's revenge etc. =A0However my own belief is that this refers =A0 > >> to > > >> the fact that inherent in God's Laws are the punishments for > >> violations. =A0So we punish ourselves by disobedience. > > >>> God is better than that. > > >>> I am a Baha'i and I am offended that some of my co-religionists are > >>> this intolerant of their fellow humanity to pronounce that "their > >>> understanding" is that God will reject them. > > >> Could that be because you are misunderstanding your fellow Baha'is? > >> Why do you think your interpretation is authoritative and thus you =A0 > >> can > > >> judge your fellow Baha'is? > > >> This too is another subject that should be dropped in my opinion. > > >> God bless, > >> doug > > >>> --Kent- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Thu Oct 16 04:11:02 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECEFE4B0A07 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 04:11:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7PyFhATUaCEU for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 04:11:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 67A704B0A84; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 04:11:01 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 03:10:59 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 02:47:31 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.4.0.080122 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 19:47:01 -1100 Subject: Re: Prohibition From: Bill Hyman Thread-Topic: Prohibition Thread-Index: AckukdN7EdDnbZqFEd2zagAwZXfiJg== In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at blueskynet.as X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kq0AJ-0008Kg-HL X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-maWvmNdAOJcZVIR24u8eXXJYLNLTy5y43HNXnR5hPWSwSFAksNuFPy7StGOYU4HJEoK8dedh7hba7WV!j83t2JltKwg5x5hG9Ws03NaQyr8kwHSAtZ8ALYfTDZfjxZ9rBOweyN3HbOnexPlxmWqSLGGjug== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25484 On 10/14/08 4:08 PM, "compx2" wrote: >> Reprehensible but it had nothing to do with prohibition laws. > > Sure it does. Just because the law says "wear seatbelts" or some such > thing, it is still a law and can easily have unintended consequences. > I mean, if we had zero tolerance for those who do not wear seatbelts > we will have drivers blowing away cops because they can't go back to > jail for not wearing their seatbelts. > > It is not an intended consequence of the law, but it definitely is > related to the law. Just as using lead piping to distill alcohol is > an unintended consequence of prohibition, and your denial seems > uninformed. > > --Kent Hi Kent: Thanks for confirming my opinion. Using lead pipe for distilling was not part of the law. Bill From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Thu Oct 16 04:11:23 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B16E4B0A84 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 04:11:23 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1dxaLrntGwjJ for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 04:11:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 683434B0AE2; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 04:11:22 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 03:11:34 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:10:12 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: mikeran37@yahoo.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 06:09:53 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <34WdnQZActBR5GjVnZ2dnUVZ_vzinZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: s9g2000prm.googlegroups.com; posting-host=76.214.135.108; posting-account=M_40MwoAAACezPB6m4wCKE4LAJjMzCeb User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kq68d-0007o4-3e X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-0.302, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 2.30) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-wAuwya+TdU5LQOvgL0OZOvUBl5DfaUzbNziMWAAWHwtoRkqZczGKIoIm9H5/S97aetbARV7huF5cGdZ!hLzVCXnB9FcWywpa874rH4f6XtjR/qg1hWoQOBOfU30G/CVpu1derErUjWJcWqnh6SxZu1WOfA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25485 >Not according to the studies you cite. "The draft guidelines >recommend that for low risk of both immediate and long-term harm from >drinking, men and women should not exceed two standard drinks in any >one day." Also "drinking too much alcohol can cause cancer". Yes, as I expected. Your taking one citation and passage out of context. Instead of appreciating the overwhelming message of the whole body of research on the subject. But then again I should not be surprised, you have a history of doing this with alot of other things in the Baha'i faith as well. > Limited data suggested that alcohol intakes of at least 60 g/d were > not associated with further increased risk. Do you even understand what you just cited? Here, I'll refresh your memory: "For alcohol intakes less than 60 g/d (reported by >99% of participants), risk increased linearly with increasing intake; the pooled multivariate relative risk for an increment of 10 g/d of alcohol (about 0.75-1 drink) was 1.09 (95% confidence interval [CI], 1.04-1.13; P for heterogeneity among studies, .71). The multivariate- adjusted relative risk for total alcohol intakes of 30 to less than 60 g/d (about 2-5 drinks) vs nondrinkers was 1.41 (95% CI, 1.18-1.69). Limited data suggested that alcohol intakes of at least 60 g/d were not associated with further increased risk. " Translated, there is a threshold value above which it is the same risk. If you are able to read, this means that on a chart there was a linear increase in cancer risk until 60g/d above this level at which there was the same risk whether you were drinking 120 g/d or 60 g/d makes no difference to your risk. You don't even understand what you are citing. Clearly you are out of you element here and well deep beyond carrying on an informed conversation on the matter. Further risk of what? Breast cancer, liver cancer? do you know? or do you just randomly cite passages that seem to support your position? I'm wasting my time at this point. >Why would you ask me to investigate further when it so clearly >states what I have been saying all along: >A single drink occassionally by a non-Baha'i is just fine. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Thu Oct 16 04:11:50 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66DA54B0A91 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 04:11:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DlbwXZN1eS5C for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 04:11:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 5CECD4B0AAC; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 04:11:49 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 03:12:21 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:32:54 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Reply-To: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" From: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai References: Subject: Re: Prohibition Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 11:32:29 +1000 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KqGnF-0002RO-QD X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-7R5aFdVEA/bT+X1xduCNhIICL1bHlWcTIk4ZFlTN1QoH+sBVd4wL3/bz/q/GLS8dpt0NJ91bFlutmlp!fKLxaGqggBpScCV5PF4L7Fjwy7DZBm889bUo7pCyXcAH7Yx5sL6pvUKQTHmEDKDBzkVBP5sPGw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118738 soc.religion.bahai:25486 alt.religion.bahai:21178 "Bill Hyman" wrote in message news:maGdnRkyir8UtmnVnZ2dnUVZ_orinZ2d@giganews.com... > Tim wrote: > > > Only in prohibition days could you get your whiskey laced with > > lead. > > Reprehensible but it had nothing to do with prohibition laws. Alcoholic lead poisoning was caused by prohibition laws, because manufacturing and quality control had no regulatory oversight, and due to this a lot of people used plumbing components made from or modified with lead due tot he ease of working with this material. The lead then found its way into the alcohol. This frequency of negligence just doesn't happen in the absence of prohibition laws. This is how prohibition laws cause much more frequent poisonings. My late brother had many enemies because he made it his business on ocasion, to frequent night clubs with a small bottle of industrial solvent. Then he would obtain whatever was being sold there and when he had everyone's attention, he would perform a recrystallisation to show everyone the degree of contamination inherent in illicitly manufactured substances. It would seem that people who take illicit drugs are in more danger of being poisoned by by-products because prohibition deprives illicit drug manufacturers of any civilly actionable liability - and it is this that ensures the quality control processes of legitimate food companies. > > Cigarettes cause more death and disability than alcohol ever will, and the > > Lord of the Age erred grievously to ban the lesser evil and neglect the > > greater evil. > > The Lord of the Age does not err. Smokers are more likely to kill themselves > than others. Although smoking is not against Divine Law, I would like to > see prohibition laws for smoking too. My understanding is that smoking was > against the law for Babi's. Smoking was so prevalent in Persia that > non-smokers were persecuted as being Babi's or Baha'is and Baha'u'llah > allowed smoking to protect those non-believers. Then he is not the Lord of the Age. Abrogating a ban on a greater evil while proscribing a lesser evil is a grievous error, whether or not proscription is appropriate in either case. The person responsible cannot possibly be "Lord of the Age" any more than a man who claims 2 is greater than 3 can be a mathematician. > > Spirituality has nothing to do with consumption of alcohol. > > I agree, but spirituality has a lot to do with those whose duty is supposed > to be enforcing the laws. Read what I wrote again, with this in mind, and > you will understand my meaning. Yes, but laws themselves only create problems if they serve only a minority of the community. For example, the only people who benefit from drug prohibition laws are the drug dealers who can then use the laws as an excuse to charge anything they like, and manipulate the police by trading somebody else's conviction for their own. My ex-wife's car was written off by a drug addict, who was given immunity from civil action because he named a drug dealer. That meant we bore the expense of the drug-addict's illegal behaviour and were not allowed to seek compensation. If there was no prohibition, the accident wouldn't have happened and if it did, we would have been compensated. The fact is that redundant laws create injustice, because laws don't change the people who create the problems. If anything, laws make the problems worse if those problems are not addressed by other means. > > One more question, if you take away alcohol, how do you do so without > > harming those whose diets include red wine and/or amaro in the correct > > amounts? > > There is no problem if the diets are medically prescribed. There is if we lack a 100% complete understanding of diet with respect to genetic differences in physiology. Like I said, it is inadvisable to advocate laws when you don't understand what you are trying to change. Sometimes, I have half a glass of red wine with a meal to help my digestion - what do you propose you can replace the wine with? It might interest you to know that my doctor doesn't know the answer to this question and neither does Baha'u'llah. This alone suggests that prohibition of alcohol in absence of answers to such questions is both ignorant and, negligent. ____________________________________________________________ Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the number@timothycasey.info to email. Philosophical Essays: http://timothycasey.info Speed Reading: http://speed-reading-comprehension.com Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security. Science & Geology: http://geologist-1011.com; http://geologist-1011.net Technical & Web Design: http://web-design-1011.com -- GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer today! From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Thu Oct 16 04:11:56 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90B414B0B81 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 04:11:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8TecOYfn8rsB for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 04:11:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id DA79F4B0C1B; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 04:11:55 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 03:12:33 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:09:24 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Reply-To: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" From: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai References: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> <77C47669-07EF-43E5-94A4-349E1097B6D1@sbcglobal.net> <8eudnY1HLpqSsWnVnZ2dnUVZ_vCdnZ2d@giganews.com> Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 13:09:01 +1000 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KqIIi-0008MV-TB X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-zSuJ4/JVen76dXctrMgl/uzXYm79shKH1D+1lTqzi3gaEoVJBKs+jX9I2yTdS8La8jHhbqNtUqhHK4q!9JHCJXeQF3lLDR06OZsdzUO3wm3eTacqMwf+d+hzgCpaZ0zSjigXC7Fu+gEgB+w0X30FJJ3J1A== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118739 soc.religion.bahai:25487 alt.religion.bahai:21179 "Douglas McAdam" wrote in message news:8eudnY1HLpqSsWnVnZ2dnUVZ_vCdnZ2d@giganews.com... > > On Oct 13, 2008, at 11:46 AM, Douglas McAdam wrote: > > >>> It strikes me strange that we can attribute total essential > >>> infallibility to the Manifestation who is without error and then > >>> when > >>> He appoints the Master and confers infallibility upon him that some > >>> will attribute an error to the Master or the Guardian. To me that > >>> would mean the Manifestation (God speaking to us) made an error in > >>> conferring infallibility upon the Master,etc. > >> > >> Exactly. A contradiction of conferred infallibility refutes the > >> essential > >> infallibility of the source by which the conferred infallibility was > >> conferred in the first place. > > > > Seems reasonable to me. > > > Dear Tim- > I recently sent you a reply concerning your response on my comment and > did so in error. I thought you were agreeing with me and on second > glance see that you were not. > To me the Manifestation with essential infallibility cannot make an > error in appointing and conferring infallibility on another who could > make an error. We are not infallible and thus we cannot evaluate an > infallible souls behavior or actions as being in error. I have not > seen any evidence produced by any scholar to warrant a conclusion the > Central Figures made an error. Yes, but how can we accept essential infallibility unless it can be proven in the first place? The problem is that it doesn't matter how many times we prove essential infallibility, it only takes a single disproof to falsify it. This is why independent investigation of truth is a never ending saga. For me, the non-singularity (IE. absence or multiplicity) of maxim in a canon is sufficient to refute the infallibility of it's author. The multiplicity of most important propositions is the most common error in administrative logic. ____________________________________________________________ Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the number@timothycasey.info to email. Philosophical Essays: http://timothycasey.info Speed Reading: http://speed-reading-comprehension.com Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security. Science & Geology: http://geologist-1011.com; http://geologist-1011.net Technical & Web Design: http://web-design-1011.com -- GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer today! From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Thu Oct 16 23:59:50 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A48A4B07B2 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:59:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ksq8HI6unMli for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:59:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 4BCB84B08E1; Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:59:50 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:00:10 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 04:56:43 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: "Enty Ell" Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai References: Subject: Re: Prohibition X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Organization: virginmedia.com Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 09:56:32 +0100 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KqOeu-0008DR-VI X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-fwjlgQpVrb8bLvuLuxgYo6vTEHkKadmgHHCJXdU2hbK5bja82sDFiFMsAYIE2D092rQjii4mbEdVo0q!ISi1zTg6uaTwSRFWbNFSYjAEcH08+wPw5/tBIXUlDHRDA9xI8NAZt1aI3WooqYVh/fY8rUq/Qw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118766 soc.religion.bahai:25488 alt.religion.bahai:21191 "Alcoholic lead poisoning was caused by prohibition laws". False - it was caused by persons drinking alcohol! "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" wrote in message news:mtSdndXl_4H4amvVnZ2dnUVZ_v7inZ2d@giganews.com... > "Bill Hyman" wrote in message > news:maGdnRkyir8UtmnVnZ2dnUVZ_orinZ2d@giganews.com... >> Tim wrote: >> >> > Only in prohibition days could you get your whiskey laced with >> > lead. >> >> Reprehensible but it had nothing to do with prohibition laws. > > Alcoholic lead poisoning was caused by prohibition laws, because > manufacturing and quality control had no regulatory oversight, and due to > this a lot of people used plumbing components made from or modified with From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Fri Oct 17 00:00:34 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B1E94B0903 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 00:00:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h-l9T0hFH7da for ; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 00:00:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id A107E4B0908; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 00:00:33 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:00:33 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 07:40:47 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 04:38:52 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <34WdnQZActBR5GjVnZ2dnUVZ_vzinZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: v72g2000hsv.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.2.209; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KqRDg-0002so-Re X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-5aF2twajzaTWTGHy6eMx32C9dKIkMxG82Xw+RY9AYT95FZmWEJe0hlu7fcKqVhe0zNfbwfCKfuJaY4V!kP2F+fwvZ2DjOL5q4j5xVvXIQnHw+xogyexfFnF1LknsSzdhsjIGRrIbJOeJDHmfhVSEUIFWLg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25489 Hi Mike, > Yes, as I expected. Your taking one citation and passage out of > context. I cited seven examples from three different studies, all of which "recommended" less drinking, none recommend not drinking at all. Nothing anywhere (except you) says that no alcohol at all is better for health than one drink a day (except you, of course). > But then again I should not be > surprised, you have a history of doing this with alot of other things > in the Baha'i faith as well. This accusation against me is just normal from the "Baha'is" that I meet. Pay no attention to the facts, just attack. You want to prohibit alcohol use entirely and use your religion to justify it, damn the facts. The problem is, it is my religion too, and your blinkered logic needs to be challenged. Instead of examining the facts, you attack the one holding those facts to your face. Now you appear to be saying that, because I have those facts here for you I must not be a good Baha'i, is that it? Well, back-atcha. I have the facts, I have no ulterior motive, I believe in tolerance toward non-Baha'is and their actions, I have no reason to stop them from drinking, and I am a Baha'i. If that offends you, well, take your best shot. Oh, was that it? --Kent On Oct 15, 9:09=A0am, mikera...@yahoo.com wrote: > >Not according to the studies you cite. =A0"The draft guidelines > >recommend that for low risk of both immediate and long-term harm from > >drinking, men and women should not exceed two standard drinks in any > >one day." =A0Also "drinking too much alcohol can cause cancer". > > Yes, as I expected. Your taking one citation and passage out of > context. Instead of appreciating the overwhelming message of the whole > body of research on the subject. But then again I should not be > surprised, you have a history of doing this with alot of other things > in the Baha'i faith as well. > > > Limited data suggested that alcohol intakes of at least 60 g/d were > > not associated with further increased risk. > > Do you even understand what you just cited? Here, I'll refresh your > memory: > > "For alcohol intakes less than 60 g/d (reported by >99% of > participants), risk increased linearly with increasing intake; > the pooled multivariate relative risk for an increment of 10 g/d of > alcohol (about 0.75-1 drink) was 1.09 (95% confidence interval [CI], > 1.04-1.13; P for heterogeneity among studies, .71). The multivariate- > adjusted relative risk for total alcohol intakes of 30 to less than > 60 > g/d (about 2-5 drinks) vs nondrinkers was 1.41 (95% CI, 1.18-1.69). > Limited data suggested that alcohol intakes of at least 60 g/d were > not associated with further increased risk. " > > =A0Translated, there is a threshold value above which it is the same > risk. > > If you are able to read, this means that on a chart there was a linear > increase in cancer risk until 60g/d above this level at which there > was the same risk whether you were drinking 120 g/d or 60 g/d makes no > difference to your risk. You don't even understand what you are > citing. Clearly you are out of you element here and well deep beyond > carrying on an informed conversation on the matter. > > Further risk of what? Breast cancer, liver cancer? do you know? or do > you just randomly cite passages that seem to support your position? > I'm wasting my time at this point. > > > > >Why would you ask me to investigate further when it so clearly >states w hat I have been saying all along: > >A single drink occassionally by a non-Baha'i is just fine.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Fri Oct 17 00:00:44 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CCFD4B0903 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 00:00:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AmWiOQDS5oqM for ; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 00:00:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 09DE74B0908; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 00:00:44 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:00:50 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 09:24:59 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: macleod@beloved.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 06:23:14 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <34WdnQZActBR5GjVnZ2dnUVZ_vzinZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: a29g2000pra.googlegroups.com; posting-host=121.223.130.197; posting-account=kun0LQoAAABFja1RQ6N9_-xXGm8Jx1a7 User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KqSqU-0002KQ-Ql X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-1.359, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_LWSHORTT 1.24) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-AC8b5/jqg+89TdMPyRBtqEzRSHfQYRparSJ6h7V4fsS5NDMf3oTXjCm213ZP+Rdg2UgQRPX6QSBVL9c!NfeWaIygObRg2h4rUTMOinXfph+TykOcG8LO+N5o209CfY2fxTeEF2gOSNjsYXIoujKqVFBbbw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25490 On Oct 16, 12:09=A0am, mikera...@yahoo.com wrote: I've been following this discussion only off and on from the sidelines so might have missed something but I'm not sure what point you're making. I'm quite easy with the idea that even moderate drinking may be somewhat unhealthy and reduce life expectancy by a few years. I'd be equally easy if more evidence is found that changes that view. Are you of the opinion that people should be restrained or discouraged from having mildly unhealthy habits? As far as I can find out quickly here in Australia informed viewpoints vary giving estimates of the total impact of alcohol on life expectancy ranging from one or two years up to about 10 years but that includes all drinkers including very heavy drinkers. In the twentieth century Australian life expectancy at birth went up by about 25 years. I assume other technologically advanced societies experienced similar changes. If some people want to trade a fair chunk of that twenty-five years for what they regard as a pleasant life-style, it seems to me that is their business. More to the point in this forum, do you think the effects of alcohol on physical health are of any significance from a Baha'i point of view? The quote in the Aqdas is "It is inadmissible that man, who hath been endowed with reason, should consume that which stealeth it away. Nay, rather it behoveth him to comport himself in a manner worthy of the human station, and not in accordance with the misdeeds of every heedless and wavering soul." and the notes quote Baha'u'llah in another Tablet "Beware lest ye exchange the Wine of God for your own wine, for it will stupefy your minds, and turn your faces away from the Countenance of God, the All- Glorious, the Peerless, the Inaccessible. Approach it not, for it hath been forbidden unto you by the behest of God, the Exalted, the Almighty." On the basis of that, in my opinion, the core reason for the injunction is the intoxicating effects of alcohol not its carcinogenic or other physical health problems. I would have put that stronger had not Abdul-Baha written that the reasons for the prohibition are "alcohol leadeth the mind astray and causeth the weakening of the body". Still derangement of the mind is first even there so I think we can justly conclude that we as Baha'is turn away from alcohol primarily because of the short term intoxication rather than any long term health effects. Consider how the smoking of tobacco, a much more demonstrated (though admittedly exaggerated) danger to health is only discouraged not forbidden in the Faith. Baha'u'llah does not, in my opinion, specifically say that the "misdeeds of every heedless and wavering soul" are directly caused by alcohol but I think the juxtaposition and contrast of these two behavioral patterns in one paragraph in the Aqdas is relevant to the petty violence and crime which is part of the drinking culture in many of our cities and towns. As I say, I'm coming late to this discussion and I may have missed the point of you posts. If so feel free to tell me to mind my own business. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Fri Oct 17 00:00:52 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A9CB4B0908 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 00:00:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ONhJ2oxkca-g for ; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 00:00:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 0CFE04B0922; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 00:00:52 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:01:07 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 11:43:41 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: mikeran37@yahoo.com Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Prohibition Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 08:43:27 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: u46g2000hsc.googlegroups.com; posting-host=76.214.135.108; posting-account=M_40MwoAAACezPB6m4wCKE4LAJjMzCeb User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KqV0h-0005lL-Qk X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-0.302, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 2.30) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-eCvneSLWn5PIl5kAy50v7L7Kf+RrDcGm1GHmXB8CdwRZzSBR50If+EFQgdfvzVMQdAl5FscgAsXrsrM!oOV0y/6hJH1BTFSz/WhmepTryhaleDDbGJ54/Y0/ykejNleRcrTHvSZt8vZmqfVvi68IYcthgQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118767 soc.religion.bahai:25491 alt.religion.bahai:21192 > Tim wrote: > > Only in prohibition days could you get your whiskey laced with > > lead. > Reprehensible but it had nothing to do with prohibition laws. >Alcoholic lead poisoning was caused by prohibition laws, because >manufacturing and quality control had no regulatory oversight, and due to >this a lot of people used plumbing components made from or modified with >lead due tot he ease of working with this material. The lead then found its >way into the alcohol. This frequency of negligence just doesn't happen in >the absence of prohibition laws. This is how prohibition laws cause much Hey, let's use your line. Don't blame the lead and prohibition laws, blame the moron who used the lead solder and pipes. Isn't that the same logic you applied to alcoholism. Here's what you wrote: "The choice to overstep the bounds of moderation is a choice and is not dictated by any attribute of alcohol " Likewise the choice to use ignorantly use lead in your pipes, is a choice. Both you and Kent would have problem with letting people know that the lead in those pipes will make you crazy, or that alcohol is a carcinogen which will raise your risk of cancer. The internal hypocrisy of this logic you are applying astounds me. Perhaps the answer is to educate mankind as Baha'u'llah advocated, and allow civil, intelligent people to make their own choices. And by education, I don't mean the Budwiser commercials that I see, I mean the truths about alcohol in every way. People should know that alcohol is considered a carcinogen. People should know what a carcinogen means. People just aren't educated on this subject and as testified by the postings here, the misinformation abounds. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Fri Oct 17 00:01:27 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D170A4B07B2 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 00:01:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ieMC+ByQQ-tu for ; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 00:01:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 5E8E44B0801; Fri, 17 Oct 2008 00:01:27 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:01:37 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 14:00:23 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Cc:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=4uiQGMnrJ3udGnvvy2sSM+j/lBu7YfY6sNmtsXoxVQabVtNMtqMMAL6+VBLUlITNLuSWk3RSRGLW4nuUIMuXTGg9i9uoVOBpzz/YE+0HDWlluvhQqh76I6XrRYsmYC8h4j/kvzfCMZ1Y09JyJ3NMkjQqWJi27C6Zy4pvbcWz2f0= ; X-YMail-OSG: 3VjDcLMVM1m19NIreZxb6tuZQBw48aBKBKuGQM9CBZGYXYVLJNtX2tAhyGXRfyikHdn9vZNDVlCcdNGDooKWExmQW2nGVyupM2lhOJV9kHDumk_tS7Uw0W3QchMhbrhA7Os- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 Cc: bahai-faith@bcca.org From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 13:59:57 -0400 References: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> <77C47669-07EF-43E5-94A4-349E1097B6D1@sbcglobal.net> <8eudnY1HLpqSsWnVnZ2dnUVZ_vCdnZ2d@giganews.com> X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KqX8u-0000M7-AX X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-rMb0fmDUfSdwSCR+mue34+JVptdS1wkxmY+WbB+qyV2WOsAuAvAK6pA7eeZhFpu6AZ4I/mKHXY99Fm0!BUqGCcCAjDPU95Blt3lMmCIDyTNaU8pht3qH0w6WdzvZ6BGQBDaLOOu80aJfK3ZeHSShL2/bog== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25492 On Oct 15, 2008, at 11:09 PM, Number Eleven - GPEMC! wrote: >> Dear Tim- >> I recently sent you a reply concerning your response on my comment >> and >> did so in error. I thought you were agreeing with me and on second >> glance see that you were not. >> To me the Manifestation with essential infallibility cannot make an >> error in appointing and conferring infallibility on another who could >> make an error. We are not infallible and thus we cannot evaluate an >> infallible souls behavior or actions as being in error. I have not >> seen any evidence produced by any scholar to warrant a conclusion the >> Central Figures made an error. > > Yes, but how can we accept essential infallibility unless it can be > proven > in the first place? The problem is that it doesn't matter how many > times we > prove essential infallibility, it only takes a single disproof to > falsify > it. This is why independent investigation of truth is a never ending > saga. > For me, the non-singularity (IE. absence or multiplicity) of maxim > in a > canon is sufficient to refute the infallibility of it's author. The > multiplicity of most important propositions is the most common error > in > administrative logic. Hi Tim- My understanding is that all that has been revealed by Baha'u'llah can be validated but it may take some time for us to become developed enough to do so. I do know there are some things I do not understand, things they appear to be paradoxes or even contradictions but I take it that I am not yet developed enough to understand their unity. I have had similar experiences in the past and later I found validation because I became more deepened and saw a larger context. Independent Investigation of Truth to me means we must not allow our conditioning, our former beliefs etc. to sway our investigation of the Manifestation. Once we have accepted the Manifestation we then independently investigate His Revelation but by not just reading His Writings but actually living by them. Who among us does not have human faults and character deficiencies that interfere with our rational powers of investigation? Not me for sure. God bless, doug From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sat Oct 18 20:24:57 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AEFF4B08B5 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 2008 20:24:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1GU+w-yFigXW for ; Sat, 18 Oct 2008 20:24:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id DFDED4B094A; Sat, 18 Oct 2008 20:24:56 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 19:24:49 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 07:05:43 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org X-Authentication-Warning: serv4.gc.ams.giganews.com: news set sender to poster@giganews.com using -f From: "Finnegan's Wake" References: Subject: Re: Prohibition Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 12:05:25 +0100 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Response X-DF-Seen-By: ms X-AuthenticatedUsername: NoAuthUser X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@btinternet.com X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kqn9G-0000fJ-TG X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-7FhxUiT/gksalItI/JpnrKs3HQPVwqVU3HpW5ekBiWRC/mQuDm9CvTiouO5UZS4krZl8hOzxtduL9HZ!2LPFFoILwMbAVjaZYKq01yRn1OE6TL/b1dgNtUdoyBGja1vAhTHwEt8RszNNOpxffQK8+DAlTw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118788 soc.religion.bahai:25493 alt.religion.bahai:21199 "Enty Ell" wrote in message news:ppGdnVVJDL9XkGXVnZ2dnUVZ_s3inZ2d@giganews.com... > "Alcoholic lead poisoning was caused by prohibition laws". False - it was > caused by persons drinking alcohol! In the days that lead piping was used to carry potable water, lead poisoning could and did occur in persons who did not imbibe alcohol. 'twas for that reason that the use of lead piping was discontinued and copper, though latterly plastic, tubing was used instead. Accidental lead poisoning is now rare- in both drinkers and non-drinkers. The regulated standards in modern breweries and distilleries and other establishments where the "pure" is created require the use of the highest quality plumbing fixtures such that contamination is avoided. As the old song put it, the best moonlighters: - "Get you a copper kettle Get you a copper coil Fill it with new made cornmash And never more you'll toil" Do not let your anti-alcohol fervour distort your perception of fact! > > "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" wrote in > message news:mtSdndXl_4H4amvVnZ2dnUVZ_v7inZ2d@giganews.com... >> "Bill Hyman" wrote in message >> news:maGdnRkyir8UtmnVnZ2dnUVZ_orinZ2d@giganews.com... >>> Tim wrote: >>> >>> > Only in prohibition days could you get your whiskey laced with >>> > lead. >>> >>> Reprehensible but it had nothing to do with prohibition laws. >> >> Alcoholic lead poisoning was caused by prohibition laws, because >> manufacturing and quality control had no regulatory oversight, and due to >> this a lot of people used plumbing components made from or modified with > > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sat Oct 18 20:25:06 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D0CC4B094A for ; Sat, 18 Oct 2008 20:25:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S1ppmShauyHa for ; Sat, 18 Oct 2008 20:25:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 9B27B4B0A3F; Sat, 18 Oct 2008 20:25:05 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 19:25:06 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 07:26:02 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org X-Authentication-Warning: serv1.gc.ams.giganews.com: news set sender to poster@giganews.com using -f From: "Finnegan's Wake" References: Subject: Re: Prohibition Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 12:24:37 +0100 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original X-DF-Seen-By: ms X-AuthenticatedUsername: NoAuthUser X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@btinternet.com X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KqnSq-0001vB-Te X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-UDrS3TsFsAbexAyH/z58De4NbveHkcRGC2zfdYwg7OkGHROjXc/tde+Be7ztSdJljV5ReGORfLnyWo5!/m5DJW6zSVodC6Rb3Pr0uLOqWbPLTuCCPWZ1RKicAwdhKe/2CDGpuHYx1HBdY9y1TdiFhmlkUQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118789 soc.religion.bahai:25494 alt.religion.bahai:21200 wrote in message news:ruSdnQM6k9eek2XVnZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d@giganews.com... > Perhaps the answer is to educate mankind as Baha'u'llah advocated, > and allow civil, intelligent people to make their own choices. And by > education, I don't mean the Budwiser commercials that I see, I mean > the truths about alcohol in every way. People should know that alcohol > is considered a carcinogen. People should know what a carcinogen > means. People just aren't educated on this subject and as testified by > the postings here, the misinformation abounds. Statistics do not a carcinogen make! Most of these so-called research reports are based on statistical analysis ... and that is a very dodgy premise on which to base any conclusions. This morning, for example, I hear via the BBC no less, that aspirin is useless as a prophylactic against heart disease/strokes in diabetics despite a conventional wisdom that it is the best thing since Noah discovered ship-building. Is alcohol a carcinogen or is it an accelerant? If so, how much does one have to consumebefore the effect becomes apparent? Or, perhaps, is it just that some people, in statistically significant numbers, have cancers and are also heavy alcohol users. This effect does not indicate a causal relationship. You need a lot more research, preferably not statistical, before establishing that. Salt causes heart disease but salt is essential to human life. In an area with fetid water supplies is not beer a healthier drink than water - the alcohol destroys the nasty little bugs. Should we not therefore establish the general idea that it is the surfeit that is dangerous and to be avoided? As a civil, intelligent person I've made my decision. I decided to risk manage alcohol ... accept the minimal risk to life and limb for the pleasure and other beneficial effects of the uisce beatha (lit. water of life - anglicised as whiskey). There are generations that testify to its merits as the water of life. There are statistics that say otherwise. A drunk uses a lamp-post much as a statistician uses statistics - more for support than illumination! From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sat Oct 18 20:25:12 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E68CC4B0A3C for ; Sat, 18 Oct 2008 20:25:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cTrLjfQ6bU6n for ; Sat, 18 Oct 2008 20:25:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 7E6954B0A3F; Sat, 18 Oct 2008 20:25:12 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 19:25:24 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 12:25:51 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Prohibition Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 09:23:30 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: j68g2000hsf.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.2.209; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kqs95-0000ew-Uq X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-pDdo3oBbSanM0oZdq1bdtORj/KZSLcIPUi8DDpk5CKYmFPVYFWcgHdyoW89VAeIu/arlu1q8H2u7ag0!fAUKbYzRoP6BDL318Lrz7OJjOpRuSymkrMCQ+ecJK/1Pa10rIyxlyu/YeaYXGLoaIo0wzFfsyw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118790 soc.religion.bahai:25495 alt.religion.bahai:21201 Hi Mike, "Both you and Kent would have problem with letting people know that the lead in those pipes will make you crazy, or that alcohol is a carcinogen which will raise your risk of cancer." Do you find it as offensive as I do when someone tells you what you think? Perhaps we should start a new thread about the Baha'i Teachings and Straw Men. If you are interested in what I think, I am not difficult to find. --Kent On Oct 16, 11:43=A0am, mikera...@yahoo.com wrote: > > Tim wrote: > > > Only in prohibition days could you get your whiskey laced with > > > lead. > > Reprehensible but it had nothing to do with prohibition laws. > >Alcoholic lead poisoning was caused by prohibition laws, because > >manufacturing and quality control had no regulatory oversight, and due t o > >this a lot of people used plumbing components made from or modified with > >lead due tot he ease of working with this material. The lead then found its > >way into the alcohol. This frequency of negligence just doesn't happen i n > >the absence of prohibition laws. This is how prohibition laws cause much > > Hey, let's use your line. Don't blame the lead and prohibition laws, > blame the moron who used the lead solder and pipes. Isn't that the > same logic you applied to alcoholism. Here's what you wrote: > > "The choice to overstep the bounds of moderation is a choice and is > not dictated by any attribute of alcohol " > > Likewise the choice to use ignorantly use lead in your pipes, is a > choice. Both you and Kent would have problem with letting people know > that the lead in those pipes will make you crazy, or that alcohol is a > carcinogen which will raise your risk of cancer. > > The internal hypocrisy of this logic you are applying astounds me. > > =A0Perhaps the answer is to educate mankind as Baha'u'llah advocated, > and allow civil, intelligent people to make their own choices. And by > education, I don't mean the Budwiser commercials that I see, I mean > the truths about alcohol in every way. People should know that alcohol > is considered a carcinogen. People should know what a carcinogen > means. People just aren't educated on this subject and as testified by > the postings here, the misinformation abounds. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sat Oct 18 20:25:23 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FD864B0A3F for ; Sat, 18 Oct 2008 20:25:23 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZuvnflRsx1TI for ; Sat, 18 Oct 2008 20:25:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id BDF594B0A44; Sat, 18 Oct 2008 20:25:22 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 19:25:42 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 17:09:18 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: mikeran37@yahoo.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 14:09:05 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <34WdnQZActBR5GjVnZ2dnUVZ_vzinZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: 64g2000hsm.googlegroups.com; posting-host=76.214.135.108; posting-account=M_40MwoAAACezPB6m4wCKE4LAJjMzCeb User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KqwZQ-00081n-6o X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-0.302, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 2.30) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-WUEoM+ioIhFHA7BHZZc2subf4PKHFT4B4YWvPsEip9Rp+OrIKjiYVxC5XjLzHKh5osmO3yLcsnrblG9!LcfOLbp10NCfj2oQUVA/STQhKpW5GtkqFndBqAGWwUaUZJvCGmUMZi0wuG667jb3d/ujnCxo7Q== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25496 >I've been following this discussion only off and on from the >sidelines so might have missed something but I'm not sure what point >you're making. I'm quite easy with the idea that even moderate >drinking may be somewhat unhealthy and reduce life expectancy by a >few years. I'd be equally easy if more evidence is found that >changes that view. Are you of the opinion that people should be >restrained or discouraged from having mildly unhealthy habits? I will restate what I have stated from the beginning. Alcohol is a known carcinogen. People should be informed. In much the same way that people are advised to avoid smoking. Cigarrette companies are forced to label their packets with warnings. There is a double standard in our society when it comes to alcohol. I sincerely believe, in much the same way that smoking has declined, alcohol usage will decline with the proper education. I'm not advocating prohibition, but I do believe that eventually alcohol will decline in it's usage (without the Baha'is help) simply because of the facts that be. The arguement digressed when Kent chose to acuse me of mis- representing the facts that be. Only, if you review his presentation, he has already demonstrated a serious inability to understand the primary literature on the subject, let alone mount such an accusation. Which at this point for my regard makes this arguement a waste of time. With that stated, I wouldn't disagree, Baha'u'llah has forbidden it. In that regard it could be the elixer of immortality, and I still wouldn't want it. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sat Oct 18 20:25:48 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08D4C4B0A44 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 2008 20:25:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ulay9G441kgp for ; Sat, 18 Oct 2008 20:25:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 577204B0A47; Sat, 18 Oct 2008 20:25:47 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 19:26:27 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 19:51:46 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Reply-To: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" From: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai References: Subject: Re: Prohibition Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 10:51:28 +1000 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KrLa9-0003ne-Aq X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-VpS7pHATq88DtJIomSZeZImoZuWySqtdVHl2Rey3cOx+yZ6DxUNstCO6yAMw8Y2xQwYlHcKdNPaL/wv!KMgy4pF23tQmzY/56GCXftEFLT7NAYN/4T1iZnVd74MFeaod1/CfElL/9EydAgFbRHFO9KsHEQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118791 soc.religion.bahai:25497 alt.religion.bahai:21202 "Enty Ell" wrote in message news:ppGdnVVJDL9XkGXVnZ2dnUVZ_s3inZ2d@giganews.com... > "Alcoholic lead poisoning was caused by prohibition laws". False - it was > caused by persons drinking alcohol! No, the consumer did not create the conditions by which lead could find its way into the process. These conditions were created by prohibition and so alcoholic lead poisnoning is not caused by consumption as this is only symptomatic of demand - the cause is the prohibition that effectively encourages the use of lead in the manufacturing process in the first place. ____________________________________________________________ Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the number@timothycasey.info to email. Philosophical Essays: http://timothycasey.info Speed Reading: http://speed-reading-comprehension.com Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security. Science & Geology: http://geologist-1011.com; http://geologist-1011.net Technical & Web Design: http://web-design-1011.com -- GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer today! From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Oct 19 22:41:06 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36D264B0A2B for ; Sun, 19 Oct 2008 22:41:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DI4S94FRPG4h for ; Sun, 19 Oct 2008 22:41:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 371434B0A39; Sun, 19 Oct 2008 22:41:05 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 21:41:21 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 21:48:08 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Reply-To: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" From: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai References: Subject: Re: Prohibition Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 12:47:50 +1000 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KrNOj-0002i8-Lm X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-TJSzIdngmvFwXvDMdz/moQGthbDLsAizSuIloo4ctR2e+gSQfp0yBfQj4znL0fscltOfSnUxoRAV2Qh!UTZs9lZfAz4MYV9Npaeduzex/DwKG/RKfUGWN/infmUYnnopDMQtmW+heOoRR7O78uvM+wjdEQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118809 soc.religion.bahai:25498 alt.religion.bahai:21211 wrote in message news:ruSdnQM6k9eek2XVnZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d@giganews.com... > > > Tim wrote: > > > Only in prohibition days could you get your whiskey laced with > > > lead. > > Reprehensible but it had nothing to do with prohibition laws. > >Alcoholic lead poisoning was caused by prohibition laws, because > >manufacturing and quality control had no regulatory oversight, and due to > >this a lot of people used plumbing components made from or modified with > >lead due tot he ease of working with this material. The lead then found its > >way into the alcohol. This frequency of negligence just doesn't happen in > >the absence of prohibition laws. This is how prohibition laws cause much > > Hey, let's use your line. Don't blame the lead and prohibition laws, > blame the moron who used the lead solder and pipes. Isn't that the > same logic you applied to alcoholism. Here's what you wrote: > > "The choice to overstep the bounds of moderation is a choice and is > not dictated by any attribute of alcohol " Prohibition or lack thereof is not a choice but a law - much unlike whether or not to have a glass of red wine with the meal. Moderation cannot apply except in absence of such laws. BTW we DO hold the manufacturer responsible for the safety of the product. No lead is allowed in alcoholic beverages unless the consumer is informed. You are not even allowed to use lecithin (found naturally in soy & egg yolk) in food products unless it is documented on the packaging. This is a good thing. My nearest and dearest friend would be dead now were it not for such strict laws concerning the honest documentation of food ingredients, potential food contaminants, and food quality. If there was any *scientific* evidence that moderate alcohol consumption appropriate to the attached meal was found to cause cancer, alcohol manufacturers would find themselves in the position of cigarette companies - facing class actions and law suits from everyone with related diseases and history. Alcohol abuse is an abuse and is no more actionable than if you head-butt a brick wall and want to sue the builder - even if excessive consumption does cause cancer. Excessive consumption of cocoa and polyunsaturated oils cause the stomach to remain open to the oesophagus after eating - this causes reflux and subsequent chemical burns to the oesophagus which in turn causes the build-up of oesophageal scar tissue and eventually leads to GI cancer in a statistically significant percentage of cases. Chocoholics don't get to sue the manufacturers because excessive chocolate consumption is an abuse of privilege, not a right and certainly not a legitimate choice of action. If a real estate investor takes a dive from a skyscraper and survives the plunge, who do you think is responsible for his injuries? > Likewise the choice to use ignorantly use lead in your pipes, is a > choice. Both you and Kent would have problem with letting people know > that the lead in those pipes will make you crazy, or that alcohol is a > carcinogen which will raise your risk of cancer. Lead kills you if used inappropriately - that is why I'd have a problem with telling people that it only causes psychosis. Lead is used in solder. Using your logic, we'd have to give up all electronic technology because the lead it contains is a potentially fatal substance if consumed. Using "my" logic, food manufacturers can't profitably use lead in contact with food because they'd have to notify their potential customers - who would then not buy the product. Now, you are free to eat the solder in your computer, just as abusive people are free to abuse alcohol. Abusive people choose alcohol because they feel socially comfortable to blame the alcohol for their own choices. If lead wasn't so deadly, abusive people would also use lead "addiction" to evade responsibility for their own actions. > > The internal hypocrisy of this logic you are applying astounds me. > Arguments like this are why belief in god is equated with dishonesty. Let me elaborate... You claim that I have a problem with letting people know that alcohol is a carcinogen or that lead is a poison. I don't. Political assertions and legal classifications are not science - and they never will be even if the science agrees. Get your facts right and try not to leave out relevant details such as the fact that consumption of certain alcoholic beverages as an integral part of certain cultural diets is scientifically proven as well. You also conveniently omit the fact that alcohol abuse is the exception, not the rule. This has profound significance because it proves that the abuse is behavioural and not chemical. Most importantly, you fail to account for the very existence of moderate alcohol consumption and conveniently omit the facts as they pertain to moderation and not to abuse. You can prove anything by emphasising one fact to the exclusion of others. Setterfield "proved" that the speed of light was changing (so the fact your computer is actually working the way you think it is, is just a delusion!) and Snelling "proved" that radiometric dating was impossible (see http://fundamentalism.timothycasey.info for details). It is mostly fundamentalists, fascists, and panic merchants who use factual censorship to buttress their points. I suggest you look in the mirror before you use implicitly ad homenim labels like, "hypocrisy". As if this is not enough, you drag God and the likes of Baha'u'llah into your rather selective argument - and then you wonder why people view religion with profound suspicion... > Perhaps the answer is to educate mankind as Baha'u'llah advocated, > and allow civil, intelligent people to make their own choices. And by > education, I don't mean the Budwiser commercials that I see, I mean > the truths about alcohol in every way. People should know that alcohol > is considered a carcinogen. People should know what a carcinogen > means. People just aren't educated on this subject and as testified by > the postings here, the misinformation abounds. Yes, stick the warning on the label just like the warnings on cigarette packets. However, get your facts straight first - when does alcohol consumption become significantly carcinogenic? Does half a glass of red wine with the occasional meal pose any statistically significant risk, and how does this risk compare with the known benefits? Is it the abuse of the privilege which causes the problem? I don't see any evidence of moderate drinkers beating people to death, causing accidents, or dying of cancer any more so than teetotallers. In fact, given the way certain Iranians teetotallers treat Atheists and Baha'is, I have to wonder if they'd behave with slightly more human decency if they had the occasional drink. A rigid generalisation can be refuted with a single anecdote. When you make a generalisation, you must address all relevant exceptions in order to prove the validity of your interpretive context. When you refute a generalisation, all you need is the one single exception. I am not asserting that alcohol is "Sometimes, I have half a glass of red wine with a meal to help my digestion - what do you propose you can replace the wine with? It might interest you to know that my doctor doesn't know the answer to this question and neither does Baha'u'llah. This alone suggests that prohibition of alcohol in absence of answers to such questions is both ignorant and, negligent." So much for "essential infallibility"! ____________________________________________________________ Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the number@timothycasey.info to email. Philosophical Essays: http://timothycasey.info Speed Reading: http://speed-reading-comprehension.com Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security. Science & Geology: http://geologist-1011.com; http://geologist-1011.net Technical & Web Design: http://web-design-1011.com -- GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer today! From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Oct 19 22:41:09 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D9964B0A71 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 2008 22:41:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KjOlo+QvsB5K for ; Sun, 19 Oct 2008 22:41:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 0939A4B0A72; Sun, 19 Oct 2008 22:41:09 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 21:41:33 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 22:08:43 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 19:04:01 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <34WdnQZActBR5GjVnZ2dnUVZ_vzinZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: y71g2000hsa.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KrNii-00047X-DF X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-bmfVWTZ69tzWZAJZwpBYRBM8AvJCThPemk4IqguPzvemLfNPpkmlFA4QlBFpDkX70Wt5NZbBAJzPhOW!bUP234rltAqy5zzWvuiFk3UN9eC3IhsAmDx+VEooBZ/GHXrKWyCLrvYnaNVwI4jaEXgnAT+6Qw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25499 Hi Mike. > The arguement digressed when Kent chose to acuse me of mis- > representing the facts that be. I said many, many times that I could not find anyone in the studies who said what you keep saying, that no alcohol is better for you than one drink a day. I do not want to talk about what you said, where you said it, or worse, what I said or where I said it. I know what I mean, and wish to understand what you mean. So rather than talk about what was said, why not just clear it up? Did you mean to say that no alcohol at all is better for everyone in the entire world than a drink a day? Is it your issue to outlaw alcohol? Do you wish to continue defending that position? Because my issue is religious tolerance. I think it is intolerant of Baha'is, who choose not to drink, to assert that not drinking is better than moderate drinking. I think it shows that Baha'is are intolerant, simple minded, not willing to face facts or allow others to think for themselves. I think it is against the Baha'i Faith itself to make the legalization of alcohol (which is a political issue) into a religious issue. And so far as misrepresentations, you have afflicted me twice with the accusation, which is precisely the number of times you have deliberately and clearly misrepresented my words and sentiments. Please stop. --Kent On Oct 17, 5:09=A0pm, mikera...@yahoo.com wrote: > >I've been following this discussion only off and on from the >sidelines so might have missed something but I'm not sure what point >you're making. =A0I'm quite easy with the idea that even moderate >drinking may be somewha t unhealthy and reduce life expectancy by a >few years. =A0I'd be equally e asy if more evidence is found that >changes that view. =A0Are you of the op inion that people should be >restrained or discouraged from having mildly u nhealthy habits? > > I will restate what I have stated from the beginning. Alcohol is a > known carcinogen. People should be informed. In much the same way that > people are advised to avoid smoking. Cigarrette companies are forced > to label their packets with warnings. There is a double standard in > our society when it comes to alcohol. I sincerely believe, in much the > same way that smoking has declined, alcohol usage will decline with > the proper education. I'm not advocating prohibition, but I do believe > that eventually alcohol will decline in it's usage (without the > Baha'is help) simply because of the facts that be. > > The arguement digressed when Kent chose to acuse me of mis- > representing the facts that be. Only, if you review his presentation, > he has already demonstrated a serious inability to understand the > primary literature on the subject, let alone mount such an accusation. > Which at this point for my regard makes this arguement a waste of > time. > > =A0 With that stated, I wouldn't disagree, Baha'u'llah has forbidden it. > In that regard it could be the elixer of immortality, and I still > wouldn't want it. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Oct 19 22:41:15 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 171774B0A68 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 2008 22:41:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hz72ueWm2Kh9 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 2008 22:41:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 6D57B4B0A72; Sun, 19 Oct 2008 22:41:14 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 21:41:42 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 22:10:33 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Reply-To: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" From: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai References: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> <77C47669-07EF-43E5-94A4-349E1097B6D1@sbcglobal.net> <8eudnY1HLpqSsWnVnZ2dnUVZ_vCdnZ2d@giganews.com> Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 13:10:20 +1000 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KrNkV-0004FU-JC X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-oIFuDAEvvmK1uzsOvdz7HBP2cPmG7oqsuN2xKlI+MgzqAPyKidfEplcKdw1ZLZCy+ABgHLYvmKx8Fdl!acxmT97z+8I5Z8+wM4Zy2Y5/NuLGQ7sIBEG2KExmL6fMpNj4GC7QV+SnHrsuykL16R9/8Rnr/Q== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118810 soc.religion.bahai:25500 alt.religion.bahai:21212 "Douglas McAdam" wrote in message news:gv6dnSHjh5C8k2XVnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@giganews.com... [SNIP] > Hi Tim- > My understanding is that all that has been revealed by Baha'u'llah can > be validated but it may take some time for us to become developed > enough to do so. I do know there are some things I do not understand, > things they appear to be paradoxes or even contradictions but I take > it that I am not yet developed enough to understand their unity. I > have had similar experiences in the past and later I found validation > because I became more deepened and saw a larger context. It is the responsibility of the author to make his/her point clear to the reader and not vice versa. It is not up to the reader to resolve Baha'u'llah's literary failings any more than it was up to Hutton's readers to reassemble his logic in an order they could understand. This is why Lyell reaped the benefits of Hutton's ideas - ultimately because Lyell took responsibility for his own literary clarity and proceeded to rewrite Hutton's ideas after a style that people could more readily understand. How is it that an infallible "Manifestation of God" cannot do this when meagre mortals such as Lyell, Wegener, and Einstein; with vastly more complex ideas such as actualism, continental drift, and special relativity; express them directly and clearly? > Independent Investigation of Truth to me means we must not allow our > conditioning, our former beliefs etc. to sway our investigation of the > Manifestation. Once we have accepted the Manifestation we then > independently investigate His Revelation but by not just reading His > Writings but actually living by them. Who among us does not have > human faults and character deficiencies that interfere with our > rational powers of investigation? Not me for sure. True, and true of science - yet who is to say that the conflict of Kitab-i-Aqdas Section 1 and the Ninth Ishraq is 1.) the reader's misunderstanding? 2.) an illusion of poor writing skills? 3.) a product of the author's multiplicity, insanity, or evolution? What cannot be measured cannot be investigated, and the promotion of independent investigation of truth is a deception in absence of means by which to investigate - especially if the outcome of the investigation as opposed to the investigation itself is dictated by the first duty of the philosophy under investigation! ____________________________________________________________ Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the number@timothycasey.info to email. Philosophical Essays: http://timothycasey.info Speed Reading: http://speed-reading-comprehension.com Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security. Science & Geology: http://geologist-1011.com; http://geologist-1011.net Technical & Web Design: http://web-design-1011.com -- GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer today! From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Oct 19 22:41:20 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 264314B0A72 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 2008 22:41:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0l78+rLMIu+P for ; Sun, 19 Oct 2008 22:41:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 902294B0A76; Sun, 19 Oct 2008 22:41:19 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 21:41:50 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 23:57:56 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Reply-To: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" From: "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai References: <1N2dneIZcu4ItmnVnZ2dnUVZ_qXinZ2d@giganews.com> Subject: Re: Translation was Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 14:57:44 +1000 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KrPQQ-0002LX-I4 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-ww8vKdv3V69IL3wSiujnR24e2mHkc+8mmi2hK7+FbjrKovXcjbsS/N1N/Y48V2mEAY5B9i1a2gbUSjN!2oTIt9jDCIdJApwdxhzyXs3nT+/a8PsvPM2LrdgdrbF6XJi5vcLiX+sJkMBHbWdZC3RxiUTG5w== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118811 soc.religion.bahai:25501 alt.religion.bahai:21213 "Bill Hyman" wrote in message news:1N2dneIZcu4ItmnVnZ2dnUVZ_qXinZ2d@giganews.com... > Hi Tim: > > My opinion is that the Guardian did not make any mistakes using one word in > place of another which had a similar meaning but 50 years later may be > considered archaic. I consider that if a word he used at that time was > considered archaic he chose it for a reason and maybe we should try to > determine what that reason might be. > > English is my first language but I notice that I sometimes need a dictionary > to fully comprehend some documents released by the Baha'i World Centre. > Maybe they were designed only for the best educated, or maybe they mean more > to those who have to research to comprehend. > I don't agree. It is the responsibility of the author to clearly document her/his ideas and not up to the reader to go on a wild goose chase through the dictionary every time an author who knows better wants to big-note himself. Ogden, a contemporary of Effendi, devised Standard English in recognition of this issue. I believe Ogden was right and Effendi was wrong. For the same reason, Effendi's writings simply wouldn't pass peer review unmodified. This is why it was Lyell and not Hutton who profited from the ideas of Hutton. People ignored Hutton because his logic was inconsistently structured, and they listened to Lyell because Lyell made Hutton's ideas comprehensible. So they should have! Lyell's disciplined and simplified expression respected the value of the reader's time whereas Hutton's expression showed no consideration whatsoever. I'd expect a religious leader to show respect for the human being in everything s/he does - especially for the value of the human being's time - and this means using terms and structures that can be recognised at a high reading speed. ____________________________________________________________ Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the number@timothycasey.info to email. Philosophical Essays: http://timothycasey.info Speed Reading: http://speed-reading-comprehension.com Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security. Science & Geology: http://geologist-1011.com; http://geologist-1011.net Technical & Web Design: http://web-design-1011.com -- GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer today! From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Oct 19 22:42:06 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A273C4B0A76 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 2008 22:42:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kRh78q-QQrBz for ; Sun, 19 Oct 2008 22:42:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 261B54B0A79; Sun, 19 Oct 2008 22:42:06 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 21:42:13 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 02:50:22 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.4.0.080122 Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 19:49:40 -1100 Subject: Re: Prohibition From: Bill Hyman Thread-Topic: Prohibition Thread-Index: AckxttvoGmQFCZ2qEd2lFwAwZXfiJg== In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at blueskynet.as X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KrS7C-0006kE-C6 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-XAMJcp/+FSNDRH5Bj/eO+XoCWynqzRsD+5GKpj1SPqrH50ePleUILcfCY2WafHDq6ujDRTIybwOFyaQ!hiXn5Ns8OXH41PjvuvPwHX/OipFtW8DRab/yg9j/LwnmQw4xFtSpUUnomCId5E6QKB/RAVQdCQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25502 Prohibition laws did not encourage the use of lead in the manufacturing process of alcohol. Lead pipes were standard pipes in use at that time. No-one knew any better. Ordinary water also travelled through lead pipes. Bill On 10/18/08 1:51 PM, "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" wrote: > "Enty Ell" wrote in message > news:ppGdnVVJDL9XkGXVnZ2dnUVZ_s3inZ2d@giganews.com... >> "Alcoholic lead poisoning was caused by prohibition laws". False - it was >> caused by persons drinking alcohol! > > No, the consumer did not create the conditions by which lead could find its > way into the process. These conditions were created by prohibition and so > alcoholic lead poisnoning is not caused by consumption as this is only > symptomatic of demand - the cause is the prohibition that effectively > encourages the use of lead in the manufacturing process in the first place. > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the number@timothycasey.info to email. > Philosophical Essays: http://timothycasey.info > Speed Reading: http://speed-reading-comprehension.com > Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security. > Science & Geology: http://geologist-1011.com; http://geologist-1011.net > Technical & Web Design: http://web-design-1011.com From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Oct 19 22:42:12 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8079D4B0A79 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 2008 22:42:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SNhA+gH1Ulag for ; Sun, 19 Oct 2008 22:42:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id D800E4B0A86; Sun, 19 Oct 2008 22:42:11 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 21:42:23 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 08:02:12 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: "Enty Ell" Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai References: Subject: Re: Prohibition X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Organization: virginmedia.com Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 13:01:56 +0100 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KrWz1-0006DS-HY X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-QsCiSwpD3JXKwHJEQsYVT5AzJmp+7DCxIBiKR/eRK1L0kynSv9XL2GHK4EVtHn/JXiLxaCL0OkiUNku!vxm/SNv165DmwdaPS20ZPaglgZjkcAR9rLJMe3dJyVgUNfqZEjeLsl7+la/ts15WzNSSTOVB9Q== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118812 soc.religion.bahai:25503 alt.religion.bahai:21214 I think we need to face up to the fact that imbibing alcohol has a pleasurable effect and this causes addiction. The relinquishing of inhibitions and loosening of the tongue, the temporary forgetting of guilt complexes, all contribute to an unreal atmosphere. Facing up to the reality of being sober is often not easy and requires courage, determination and perseverance - all necessary virtues. "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" wrote in message news:Semdnf8L85Eu42fVnZ2dnUVZ_u6dnZ2d@giganews.com... > "Enty Ell" wrote in message > news:ppGdnVVJDL9XkGXVnZ2dnUVZ_s3inZ2d@giganews.com... >> "Alcoholic lead poisoning was caused by prohibition laws". False - it was >> caused by persons drinking alcohol! > > No, the consumer did not create the conditions by which lead could find > its > way into the process. These conditions were created by prohibition and so > alcoholic lead poisnoning is not caused by consumption as this is only > symptomatic of demand - the cause is the prohibition that effectively > encourages the use of lead in the manufacturing process in the first > place. > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the number@timothycasey.info to email. > Philosophical Essays: http://timothycasey.info > Speed Reading: http://speed-reading-comprehension.com > Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security. > Science & Geology: http://geologist-1011.com; http://geologist-1011.net > Technical & Web Design: http://web-design-1011.com > -- > GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC > The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. > If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM > Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer today! > > > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Oct 19 22:42:32 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D48C94B0A86 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 2008 22:42:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uwstSgng+x0s for ; Sun, 19 Oct 2008 22:42:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 217954B0AA5; Sun, 19 Oct 2008 22:42:32 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 21:42:59 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 20:44:28 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: diamondsouled Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Panentheism Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 17:44:08 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: g17g2000prg.googlegroups.com; posting-host=207.189.229.1; posting-account=RVOZAAoAAAAnydmYUsJwY5tnHum5kXVo User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.0.3) Gecko/2008092417 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Krisj-000514-70 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-PfU1tn11sElnmGXyBh/LxZE+qCCGNXT+0bZ452tYDz8M+dMTUVoIvQXxnR6Ldjm5k6XPUkLfp4O5EPk!fXv/DBdT+ej8YjGB8Kw41Pyh739T/4/JYWmWy6PRsXJry2jpG10hRhHSvMyKNdFJhfuq+66DTQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25504 Some interesting thoughts on pantheism-panentheism to be found here: http://www.websyte.com/alan/pan.htm Lar On Sep 26, 4:08=A0pm, compx2 wrote: > Hi Timothy, > > Having so much trouble posting I decided to re-write this answer to > one of your posts as a new discussion. > > > I do not see the difference between a Creator and Creation that are one and > > a Creation and Creator that are separate. > > I think the Baha'i position as 'Abdu'l-Baha put it in _Some Answered > Questions_ might be term "panentheism" or that everything emanates > from God. That is how I view the subject, anyway. > > Should you like to discuss this subject further we can go over the > pertinent passages. > > > ...the other degenerates into > > metaphysical pseudo-philosophy about what is "good for God". > > I certainly understand and appreciate your position. =A0But how do you > explain that God does have interests in the development of humanity? > She did send Messengers, and continually provides blessings and > confirmations on the side of justice, truth, mercy, all the virtues > and all the good. =A0She promises rewards for those who gird up the > loins of endeavor to aid such causes and teach Her Cause. > > As I said before, my understanding of the subject is that God's > interests are spiritual, the highest achievements of human endeavor, > that the development of order and progress of good, virtue, > accomplishment and knowledge in the contingent world is the domain or > side God has supported and will support eternally. =A0God has no need of > such things, but rather supplies and aids those things. > > From my reading of the Baha'i Writings such things emanate from God, > and they are the only important aspect of the worlds of God. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Mon Oct 20 16:32:23 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1A194B0107 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:32:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2k8msdFuxkBf for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:32:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 593854B0A64; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:32:22 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 15:32:52 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 00:06:21 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=lfkvfuxhWRLxjzVNxkSCdWmJs05Xg0y/4tbC8S0chqgsqlX9hM1VRLw2Zn2olsGbPbIbOTgGfi5Rr6iogBc3gu0pN/NkvwKCeNMH85uj3oXRXUvJdNfwe4navMXJzc6js7luhZWniLZYlvjCq/2wRabHKhf4OBps5WMXNtl0dV4= ; X-YMail-OSG: zbTEJbYVM1lyPwEuhnMhl52tQcFv.uvmHTl10Nk_koB7yHl5O1doxkdj8alEylJG1OL6ZFxhWOWFjCCcxV31dtXJWfmt7u6pmrkOlkU1SbX8yHuqCYZWoonWUkm_REQgZDMMQ0vKOiuE5ZJOaTJrAoe9 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-1--792251087 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 00:06:08 -0400 References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <34W X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Krm24-0001xH-Fq X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.598, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60, HTML_MESSAGE 0.00) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-8333Ifd/hXNGo1umqWJrmOc1UArgWnwC+e4PjwKhjKMkCtPsnupmfk2HvJJFRpSFB7DlxR3RIuiL02g!GK4n+x8wc0l/JJUlgJW8uC4XdodAJ2HObRqXOoFLwTXmUST0fjZNcQvwf+BNAHhQbhsdYI3zEQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25505 --Apple-Mail-1--792251087 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mike- I agree that this argument is a waste of time in the manner it is being conducted but I wouldn't mind discussing anything as long as it is done in an appropriate manner without personal criticisms, etc. I wonder what you think of the following- The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other.(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 16) Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity. Tablet of Ahmad, Baha'u'llah On Oct 17, 2008, at 5:09 PM, mikeran37@yahoo.com wrote: > > > >> I've been following this discussion only off and on from the >> >sidelines so might have missed something but I'm not sure what >> point >you're making. I'm quite easy with the idea that even >> moderate >drinking may be somewhat unhealthy and reduce life >> expectancy by a >few years. I'd be equally easy if more evidence >> is found that >changes that view. Are you of the opinion that >> people should be >restrained or discouraged from having mildly >> unhealthy habits? > > I will restate what I have stated from the beginning. Alcohol is a > known carcinogen. People should be informed. In much the same way that > people are advised to avoid smoking. Cigarrette companies are forced > to label their packets with warnings. There is a double standard in > our society when it comes to alcohol. I sincerely believe, in much the > same way that smoking has declined, alcohol usage will decline with > the proper education. I'm not advocating prohibition, but I do believe > that eventually alcohol will decline in it's usage (without the > Baha'is help) simply because of the facts that be. > > The arguement digressed when Kent chose to acuse me of mis- > representing the facts that be. Only, if you review his presentation, > he has already demonstrated a serious inability to understand the > primary literature on the subject, let alone mount such an accusation. > Which at this point for my regard makes this arguement a waste of > time. > > With that stated, I wouldn't disagree, Baha'u'llah has forbidden it. > In that regard it could be the elixer of immortality, and I still > wouldn't want it. > > > --Apple-Mail-1--792251087 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mike-
I agree that this = argument is a waste of time in the manner it is being conducted but I = wouldn't mind discussing anything as long as it is done in an = appropriate manner without personal criticisms, = etc.

I wonder what you think of the = following-

The first duty prescribed = by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the = Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause = and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all = good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of = every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime = station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who = is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is = acceptable without the other.(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 16)

Be = thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the = Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all = eternity. Tablet of Ahmad, Baha'u'llah


=


On Oct 17, 2008, at 5:09 PM, mikeran37@yahoo.com = wrote:




I've been = following this discussion only off and on from the >sidelines so might = have missed something but I'm not sure what point >you're making. =  I'm quite easy with the idea that even moderate >drinking may be = somewhat unhealthy and reduce life expectancy by a >few years.  I'd = be equally easy if more evidence is found that >changes that view. =  Are you of the opinion that people should be >restrained or = discouraged from having mildly unhealthy habits?

I = will restate what I have stated from the beginning. Alcohol is = a
known carcinogen. People should be informed. In much the same way = that
people are advised to avoid smoking. Cigarrette companies are = forced
to label their packets with warnings. There is a double = standard in
our society when it comes to alcohol. I sincerely = believe, in much the
same way that smoking has declined, alcohol = usage will decline with
the proper education. I'm not advocating = prohibition, but I do believe
that eventually alcohol will decline in = it's usage (without the
Baha'is help) simply because of the facts = that be.

The arguement digressed when Kent chose to acuse me of = mis-
representing the facts that be. Only, if you review his = presentation,
he has already demonstrated a serious inability to = understand the
primary literature on the subject, let alone mount = such an accusation.
Which at this point for my regard makes this = arguement a waste of
time.

 With that stated, I wouldn't = disagree, Baha'u'llah has forbidden it.
In that regard it could be = the elixer of immortality, and I still
wouldn't want = it.




= --Apple-Mail-1--792251087-- From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Mon Oct 20 16:33:53 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 812624B0A64 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:33:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eM8Y97Oz8-DJ for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:33:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 5D06B4B0AF0; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:33:52 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 15:34:08 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 03:33:42 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Reply-To: "The Lord" From: "The Lord" Newsgroups: soc.religion.agnostic,soc.religion.bahai,soc.religion.castration,soc.religion.christian,soc.religion.christian.bible-study Subject: Who Is the Greatest? Organization: The Lord X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 07:25:10 GMT X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KrpGd-0000ci-NJ X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=0.001, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_50 0.00) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-HVA7tQKCMYWIalYPVwzTbTAbGp2IzoKT4AnGsi2ccXp3AUJDCHkg7yxme3eiCYSv6NdUO4sAPDEzNbN!wB+soXSSLOMYJ03IaV7btMceJ1+q7J+LMwNr7ZPZbYoxEnEOqi7Oy+i4MZjS1EGAcxcZfJzfoQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25506 Who Is the Greatest? On returning to Capernaum, Jesus did not repair to the well-known resorts where He had taught the people, but with His disciples quietly sought the house that was to be His temporary home. During the remainder of His stay in Galilee it was His object to instruct the disciples rather than to labor for the multitudes. {DA 432.1} On the journey through Galilee, Christ had again tried to prepare the minds of His disciples for the scenes before Him. He told them that He was to go up to Jerusalem to be put to death and to rise again. And He added the strange and solemn announcement that He was to be betrayed into the hands of His enemies. The disciples did not even now comprehend His words. Although the shadow of a great sorrow fell upon them, a spirit of rivalry found a place in their hearts. They disputed among themselves which should be accounted greatest in the kingdom. This strife they thought to conceal from Jesus, and they did not, as usual, press close to His side, but loitered behind, so that He was in advance of them as they entered Capernaum. Jesus read their thoughts, and He longed to counsel and instruct them. But for this He awaited a quiet hour, when their hearts should be open to receive His words. {DA 432.2} Soon after they reached the town, the collector of the temple revenue came to Peter with the question, "Doth not your Master pay tribute?" 433 This tribute was not a civil tax, but a religious contribution, which every Jew was required to pay annually for the support of the temple. A refusal to pay the tribute would be regarded as disloyalty to the temple,--in the estimation of the rabbis a most grievous sin. The Saviour's attitude toward the rabbinical laws, and His plain reproofs to the defenders of tradition, afforded a pretext for the charge that He was seeking to overthrow the temple service. Now His enemies saw an opportunity of casting discredit upon Him. In the collector of the tribute they found a ready ally. {DA 432.3} Peter saw in the collector's question an insinuation touching Christ's loyalty to the temple. Zealous for his Master's honor, he hastily answered, without consulting Him, that Jesus would pay the tribute. {DA 433.1} But Peter only partially comprehended the purpose of his questioner. There were some classes who were held to be exempt from the payment of the tribute. In the time of Moses, when the Levites were set apart for the service of the sanctuary, they were given no inheritance among the people. The Lord said, "Levi hath no part nor inheritance with his brethren; the Lord is his inheritance." Deut. 10:9. In the days of Christ the priests and Levites were still regarded as especially devoted to the temple, and were not required to make the annual contribution for its support. Prophets also were exempted from this payment. In requiring the tribute from Jesus, the rabbis were setting aside His claim as a prophet or teacher, and were dealing with Him as with any commonplace person. A refusal on His part to pay the tribute would be represented as disloyalty to the temple; while, on the other hand, the payment of it would be taken as justifying their rejection of Him as a prophet. {DA 433.2} Only a little before, Peter had acknowledged Jesus as the Son of God; but he now missed an opportunity of setting forth the character of his Master. By his answer to the collector, that Jesus would pay the tribute, he had virtually sanctioned the false conception of Him to which the priests and rulers were trying to give currency. {DA 433.3} When Peter entered the house, the Saviour made no reference to what had taken place, but inquired, "What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?" Peter answered, "Of strangers." And Jesus said, "Then are the children free." While the people of a country are taxed for the maintenance of their king, the monarch's own children are exempt. So Israel, the professed people of God, were required to 434 maintain His service; but Jesus, the Son of God, was under no such obligation. If priests and Levites were exempt because of their connection with the temple, how much more He to whom the temple was His Father's house. {DA 433.4} If Jesus had paid the tribute without a protest, He would virtually have acknowledged the justice of the claim, and would thus have denied His divinity. But while He saw good to meet the demand, He denied the claim upon which it was based. In providing for the payment of the tribute He gave evidence of His divine character. It was made manifest that He was one with God, and therefore was not under tribute as a mere subject of the kingdom. {DA 434.1} "Go thou to the sea," He directed Peter, "and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for Me and thee." {DA 434.2} Though He had clothed His divinity with humanity, in this miracle He revealed His glory. It was evident that this was He who through David had declared, "Every beast of the forest is Mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains; and the wild beasts of the field are Mine. If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is Mine, and the fullness thereof." Ps. 50:10-12. {DA 434.3} While Jesus made it plain that He was under no obligation to pay the tribute, He entered into no controversy with the Jews in regard to the matter; for they would have misinterpreted His words, and turned them against Him. Lest He should give offense by withholding the tribute, He did that which He could not justly be required to do. This lesson would be of great value to His disciples. Marked changes were soon to take place in their relation to the temple service, and Christ taught them not to place themselves needlessly in antagonism to established order. So far as possible, they were to avoid giving occasion for misinterpretation of their faith. While Christians are not to sacrifice one principle of truth, they should avoid controversy whenever it is possible to do so. {DA 434.4} When Christ and the disciples were alone in the house, while Peter was gone to the sea, Jesus called the others to Him, and asked, "What was it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way?" The presence of Jesus, and His question, put the matter in an entirely different light from that in which it had appeared to them while they were contending 435 by the way. Shame and self-condemnation kept them silent. Jesus had told them that He was to die for their sake, and their selfish ambition was in painful contrast to His unselfish love. {DA 434.5} When Jesus told them that He was to be put to death and to rise again, The Saviour gathered His disciples about Him, and said to them, "If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all." There was in these words a solemnity and impressiveness which the disciples were far from comprehending. That which Christ discerned they could not see. They did not understand the nature of Christ's kingdom, and this ignorance was the apparent cause of their contention. But the real cause lay deeper. By explaining the nature of the kingdom, Christ might for the time have quelled their strife; but this would not have touched the underlying cause. Even after they had received the fullest knowledge, any question of precedence might have renewed the trouble. Thus disaster would have been brought to the church after Christ's departure. The strife for the highest place was the outworking of that same spirit which was the beginning of the great controversy in the worlds above, and which had brought Christ from heaven to die. There rose up before Him a vision of Lucifer, the "son of the morning," in glory surpassing all the angels that surround the throne, and united in closest ties to the Son of God. Lucifer had said, "I will be like the Most High" (Isa. 14:12, 14); and the desire for self-exaltation had brought strife into the heavenly courts, and had banished a multitude of the hosts of God. Had Lucifer really desired to be like the Most High, he would the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." Phil. 2:7, 8. Now the cross was just before Him; and His own disciples were so filled with self-seeking--the very principle of Satan's kingdom--that they could not enter into sympathy with their Lord, or even understand Him as He spoke of His humiliation for them. {DA 436.1} Very tenderly, yet with solemn emphasis, Jesus tried to correct the evil. He showed what is the principle that bears sway in the kingdom of heaven, and in what true greatness consists, as estimated by the standard of the courts above. Those who were actuated by pride and love of distinction were thinking of themselves, and of the rewards they were to have, rather than how they were to render back to God the gifts they had received. They would have no place in the kingdom of heaven, for they were identified with the ranks of Satan. {DA 436.2} Before honor is humility. To fill a high place before men, Heaven chooses the worker who, like John the Baptist, takes a lowly place before God. The most childlike disciple is the most efficient in labor for God. The heavenly intelligences can co-operate with him who is seeking, not to exalt self, but to save souls. He who feels most deeply his need of divine aid will plead for it; and the Holy Spirit will give unto him glimpses of Jesus they will be more likely to act impartially, and this fact will give their counsel greater weight with the erring one. {DA 441.1} If he will not hear them, then, and not till then, the matter is to be brought before the whole body of believers. Let the members of the church, as the representatives of Christ, unite in prayer and loving entreaty that the offender may be restored. The Holy Spirit will speak through His servants, pleading with the wanderer to return to God. Paul the apostle, speaking by inspiration, says, "As though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God." 2 Cor. 5:20. He who rejects this united overture has broken the tie that binds him to Christ, and thus has severed himself from the fellowship of the church. Henceforth, said Jesus, "let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican." But he is not to be regarded as cut off from the mercy of God. Let him not be despised or neglected by his former brethren, but be treated with tenderness and compassion, as one of the lost sheep that Christ is still seeking to bring to His fold. {DA 441.2} Christ's instruction as to the treatment of the erring repeats in more specific form the teaching given to Israel through Moses: "Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in anywise rebuke thy neighbor, that thou bear not sin for him." Lev. 19:17, margin. That is, if one neglects the duty Christ has enjoined, of trying to restore those who are in error and sin, he becomes a partaker in the sin. For evils that we might have checked, we are just as responsible as if we were guilty of the acts ourselves. {DA 441.3} But it is to the wrongdoer himself that we are to present the wrong. We are not to make it a matter of comment and criticism among ourselves; nor even after it is told to the church, are we at liberty to repeat it to others. A knowledge of the faults of Christians will be only a cause of stumbling to the unbelieving world; and by dwelling upon these things, we ourselves can receive only harm; for it is by beholding that we become changed. While we seek to correct the errors of a brother, the Spirit of Christ will lead us to shield him, as far as possible, from the criticism of even his own brethren, and how much more from the censure of the unbelieving world. We ourselves are erring, and need Christ's pity and forgiveness, and just as we wish Him to deal with us, He bids us deal with one another. {DA 441.4} "Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." You are acting as the ambassadors of heaven, and the issues of your work are for eternity. {DA 442.1} But we are not to bear this great responsibility alone. Wherever His word is obeyed with a sincere heart, there Christ abides. Not only is He present in the assemblies of the church, but wherever disciples, however few, meet in His name, there also He will be. And He says, "If two of you shall agree on earth as touching anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of My Father which is in heaven." {DA 442.2} Jesus says, "My Father which is in heaven," as reminding His disciples that while by His humanity He is linked with them, a sharer in their trials, and sympathizing with them in their sufferings, by His divinity He is connected with the throne of the Infinite. Wonderful assurance! The heavenly intelligences unite with men in sympathy and labor for the saving of that which was lost. And all the power of heaven is brought to combine with human ability in drawing souls to Christ. {DA 442.3} From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Mon Oct 20 16:33:57 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 932BE4B0AF5 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:33:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ezFTRDUiZLEd for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:33:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id D605C4B0AF9; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:33:56 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 15:34:15 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 04:41:38 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Reply-To: "The Lord" From: "The Lord" Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai,soc.religion.castration,soc.religion.christian,soc.religion.christian.biblestudy,soc.religion.christian.bible-study Subject: The Sabbath was hallowed at the creation. As ordained for man, it had its origin when "the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy." Job 38:7. Peace brooded over the world; for earth was in harmony with heaven. "God saw everyth Organization: The Lord X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 08:41:23 GMT X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KrqKR-0000wB-A6 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-QgEC7yQYhAzqUUV826wjJhcQSzC6pQbgncJHm/CHo3FnvxG7+xAJh7W+LKIkz18ItNV64mUBOAsxOUw!JP1XEm8yUVmdzXmR+TDdpeOCmew91PyARo9fOtyW+WebaklUdnFyHTqsa5oi0u7JTgJ1Hss7yw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25507 The Sabbath was hallowed at the creation. As ordained for man, it had its origin when "the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy." Job 38:7. Peace brooded over the world; for earth was in harmony with heaven. "God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good;" and He rested in the joy of His completed work. Gen. 1:31. Because He had rested upon the Sabbath, "God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it,"--set it apart to a holy use. He gave it to Adam as a day of rest. It was a memorial of the work of creation, and thus a sign of God's power and His love. The Scripture says, "He hath made His wonderful works to be remembered." "The things that are made," declare "the invisible things of Him since the creation of the world," "even His everlasting power and divinity." Gen. 2:3; Ps. 111:4; Rom. 1:20, R. V. All things were created by the Son of God. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God. . . . All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made." John 1:1-3. And since the Sabbath is a memorial of the work of creation, it is a token of the love and power of Christ. The Sabbath calls our thoughts to nature, and brings us into communion with the Creator. In the song of the bird, the sighing of the trees, and the music of the sea, we still may hear His voice who talked with Adam in Eden in the cool of the day. And as we behold His power in nature we find comfort, for the word that created all things is that which speaks life to the soul. He "who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." 2 Cor. 4:6. . . . The Sabbath was embodied in the law given from Sinai; but it was not then first made known as a day of rest. The people of Israel had a knowledge of it before they came to Sinai. On the way thither the Sabbath was kept. When some profaned it, the Lord reproved them, saying, "How long refuse ye to keep My commandments and My laws?" Ex. 16:28. The Sabbath was not for Israel merely, but for the world. It had been made known to man in Eden, and, like the other precepts of the Decalogue, it is of imperishable obligation. Of that law of which the fourth commandment forms a part, Christ declares, "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in nowise pass from the law." So long as the heavens and the earth endure, the Sabbath will continue as a sign of the Creator's power. And when Eden shall bloom on earth again, God's holy rest day will be honored by all beneath the sun. "From one Sabbath to another" the inhabitants of the glorified new earth shall go up "to worship before Me, saith the Lord." Matt. 5:18; Isa. 66:23. . . . "Wherefore the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath." These words are full of instruction and comfort. Because the Sabbath was made for man, it is the Lord's day. It belongs to Christ. For "all things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made." John 1:3. Since He made all things, He made the Sabbath. By Him it was set apart as a memorial of the work of creation. It points to Him as both the Creator and the Sanctifier. It declares that He who created all things in heaven and in earth, and by whom all things hold together, is the head of the church, and that by His power we are reconciled to God. For, speaking of Israel, He said, "I gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between Me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them,"--make them holy. Ezek. 20:12. Then the Sabbath is a sign of Christ's power to make us holy. And it is given to all whom Christ makes holy. As a sign of His sanctifying power, the Sabbath is given to all who through Christ become a part of the Israel of God. And the Lord says, "If thou turn away thy foot from the Sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on My holy day; and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honorable; . . . then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord." Isa. 58:13, 14. To all who receive the Sabbath as a sign of Christ's creative and redeeming power, it will be a delight. Seeing Christ in it, they delight themselves in Him. The Sabbath points them to the works of creation as an evidence of His mighty power in redemption. While it calls to mind the lost peace of Eden, it tells of peace restored through the Saviour. And every object in nature repeats His invitation, "Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy-laden, and I will give you rest." Matt 11:28. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Mon Oct 20 16:36:38 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91F364B0671 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:36:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f4zvz7Xdd1hz for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:36:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id BD3334B0804; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:36:37 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 15:36:41 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:04:03 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=3643jPyjkpzy7FgqrBY/KibgqmPsI9NC1MEjW6N1xmIW7SFByPHqn9o+w/3K8zSeHZYEKhQrqIFFvdFDhjx/Qouy7rgGNWNcNVGdUNEd14QnajCxCMhd8DW7TZYtbVXmu5cW2sh9fsDWHhWKS40Rw30RgNMZfcnFWggi7jHueVM= ; X-YMail-OSG: ygo7fl0VM1mLoey7cJ19iacdOj0y5JJkzi7IHZTUxXUXNB2Qz8DbbcsOZ8RUISVi_3TygHR6GBcXb_gal.QZvXJfVRLWLyu_KqHv18GOPvY.xqlaB_v5aarkaLLlK..3ijrzyXrhuqT3O7eeKBzkaRsXLrVljx.no6pKHFjkS1gMCPPwjKTt7wg4qXea X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-3--745587976 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Translation was Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:03:51 -0400 References: <1N2dneIZcu4ItmnVnZ2dnUVZ_qXinZ2d@giganews.com> X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KryAh-0007w9-RQ X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.598, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60, HTML_MESSAGE 0.00) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-gYrXwc8XmHX3X1aYuvuAAHymi/KmAjsP+KNo1qHdUBohdLHZKopI7op4Fgi/V5cMU71jrBAWDjtLEac!9Y7qFq3b2VPyXjN3htGAZta0Y7TAXezlYRYpraW+V0AsEhheqKMojPUPWy1X3pzlq1SjeiJLZg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25508 --Apple-Mail-3--745587976 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Tim- What I read you as saying is that you believe in and prefer someone else's definitions of words rather than Shoghi Effendi. How can one prove otherwise for the bottom line is we are talking about a belief and the fact that we ourselves are very limited and are in a spiritual state of infancy compared to the awesomeness of Baha'u'llah's Revelation? I go by the Dictionary that was available at the time of the Guardian because that is what he used to communicate to us. How could he know that someone like who you favor would redefine words. This is a problem I run into constantly with scholars who redefine words to suit their particular needs and communication is most difficult. As they say, "the proof is in the eating of the pudding" in our Writings we find quotes related to the fact that to attain any object one must have Knowledge, Volition and Action and also that we must "translate that which hath been written into reality and action." I see Revelations from God revealing Truth to us and our science should be assisting us to discover and experience that Truth. And I see religion as providing the means of morals and ethics so that we do not misuse our sciences. regards, doug On Oct 19, 2008, at 12:57 AM, Number Eleven - GPEMC! wrote: > "Bill Hyman" wrote in message > news:1N2dneIZcu4ItmnVnZ2dnUVZ_qXinZ2d@giganews.com... >> Hi Tim: >> >> My opinion is that the Guardian did not make any mistakes using one >> word > in >> place of another which had a similar meaning but 50 years later may >> be >> considered archaic. I consider that if a word he used at that time >> was >> considered archaic he chose it for a reason and maybe we should try >> to >> determine what that reason might be. >> >> English is my first language but I notice that I sometimes need a > dictionary >> to fully comprehend some documents released by the Baha'i World >> Centre. >> Maybe they were designed only for the best educated, or maybe they >> mean > more >> to those who have to research to comprehend. >> > > I don't agree. It is the responsibility of the author to clearly > document > her/his ideas and not up to the reader to go on a wild goose chase > through > the dictionary every time an author who knows better wants to big-note > himself. Ogden, a contemporary of Effendi, devised Standard English in > recognition of this issue. I believe Ogden was right and Effendi was > wrong. > For the same reason, Effendi's writings simply wouldn't pass peer > review > unmodified. > > This is why it was Lyell and not Hutton who profited from the ideas of > Hutton. People ignored Hutton because his logic was inconsistently > structured, and they listened to Lyell because Lyell made Hutton's > ideas > comprehensible. So they should have! Lyell's disciplined and > simplified > expression respected the value of the reader's time whereas Hutton's > expression showed no consideration whatsoever. I'd expect a > religious leader > to show respect for the human being in everything s/he does - > especially for > the value of the human being's time - and this means using terms and > structures that can be recognised at a high reading speed. --Apple-Mail-3--745587976 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tim-
What I read you as = saying is that you believe in and prefer someone else's definitions of = words rather than Shoghi Effendi.  How can one prove otherwise for = the bottom line is we are talking about a belief and the fact that we = ourselves are very limited and are in a spiritual state of infancy = compared to the awesomeness of Baha'u'llah's Revelation?   I go by = the Dictionary that was available at the time of the Guardian because = that is what he used to communicate to us.  How could he know that = someone like who you favor would redefine words.  This is a problem = I run into constantly with scholars who redefine words to suit their = particular needs and communication is most = difficult.

As they say, "the proof is in the = eating of the pudding"  in our Writings we find quotes related to = the fact that to attain any object one must have Knowledge, Volition and = Action and also that we must "translate that which hath been written = into reality and action."

I see Revelations = from God revealing Truth to us and our science should be assisting us to = discover and experience that Truth.  And I see religion as = providing the means of morals and ethics so that we do not misuse our = sciences.

regards,
doug

<= /div>
 
On Oct 19, 2008, at 12:57 AM, Number = Eleven - GPEMC! wrote:

"Bill Hyman" <pcstv@blueskynet.as> wrote in = message
news:1N2dneIZc= u4ItmnVnZ2dnUVZ_qXinZ2d@giganews.com...
Hi Tim:

My opinion is = that the Guardian did not make any mistakes using one = word
in
place of another = which had a similar meaning but 50 years later may = be
considered archaic. I = consider that if a word he used at that time = was
considered archaic he = chose it for a reason and maybe we should try = to
determine what that reason = might be.

English is my = first language but I notice that I sometimes need = a
dictionary
to fully = comprehend some documents released by the Baha'i World = Centre.
Maybe they were = designed only for the best educated, or maybe they = mean
more
to those who have = to research to comprehend.


I don't agree. It is the = responsibility of the author to clearly document
her/his ideas and = not up to the reader to go on a wild goose chase through
the = dictionary every time an author who knows better wants to = big-note
himself. Ogden, a contemporary of Effendi, devised Standard = English in
recognition of this issue. I believe Ogden was right and = Effendi was wrong.
For the same reason, Effendi's writings simply = wouldn't pass peer review
unmodified.

This is why it was Lyell = and not Hutton who profited from the ideas of
Hutton. People ignored = Hutton because his logic was inconsistently
structured, and they = listened to Lyell because Lyell made Hutton's ideas
comprehensible. = So they should have! Lyell's disciplined and simplified
expression = respected the value of the reader's time whereas Hutton's
expression = showed no consideration whatsoever. I'd expect a religious leader
to = show respect for the human being in everything s/he does - especially = for
the value of the human being's time - and this means using terms = and
structures that can be recognised at a high reading = speed.

= --Apple-Mail-3--745587976-- From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Mon Oct 20 16:36:59 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF6A74B0804 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:36:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q5LelMgG1GSf for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:36:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id E3FA04B08ED; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:36:58 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 15:37:18 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 12:50:49 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=JdQ7jJUGypZ/9BtZSjyKmR4shXkIbRaurHjihRmJPe/75rFLeeV1JwVysd3RNO53vJH4XU91t0FE7pxYoligvC0EhO9bywkJAnPWBjZu5/8eNuncyhlOk90pmYqwlceN+UOv0MMyomLwnUn5deQivpuIsVdxV8mwBzjAhrltIdo= ; X-YMail-OSG: VyV0WuIVM1n7HRmoXsAMqhEVj2ZYhYk6Z537fUCthlt6f312IKjgnkRmb6M6avbwG0qPn58u177vSsEY_IGmGl3zL07O6x1r60an99vZCTjhM86MvK_MACZeS1MzNK7vNlPBCs81SkuJlE0kgFolKdHM X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-2--746383607 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 12:50:35 -0400 References: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> <77C47669-07EF-43E5-94A4-349E1097B6D1@sbcglobal.net> <8eudnY1HLpqSsWnVnZ2dnUVZ_vCdnZ2d@giganews.com> X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-g8uft26MTGkgUffNFUTxEHVGyW9s4SgPfY62zpmjAH6KQsCP4d6iBszJOjvSfNwf4K0+DmWM+8jxmp/!V6lcWLN6MeHandoGnmbm02AAP/jeU+YMb8ZflcIiMORIG+2Xg4JHN6FAQPRYqF5PSM9orPoYGg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25509 --Apple-Mail-2--746383607 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Tim- I think you are missing my whole point. I'm not into having intellectual debates about God, religion, the =20 Manifestations and what they Reveal, I'm saying that at this point in =20= time we simply are not yet developed fully enough to be able to make =20 conclusions such as what you are doing. The reason we cannot =20 investigate spiritual realities scientifically is because we have not =20= yet developed an appropriate methodology. I do not believe it would =20 be good science to make absolute statements about anything we are =20 studying for we have already proven and agree that science is an =20 evolutionary process. So is religion. But to me there is a =20 difference between equating science to religion and science to =20 Revelation. I sort of take some of these principles as postulates to =20= be tested. For example there is only One Religion of God, which is =20 Revealed to us in successive and successful stages to the One =20 Humankind. However we humans accept the Revelator and what is being =20 revealed and through our limited development formulate religions which =20= rise and decline in effectiveness. Like I said, in my forty years as a Baha'i I have run into many =20 paradoxes, conflicts, etc. but in time they were solved as I myself =20 became more informed and understanding. The Manifestation has made =20 all His points quite clear to the reader, it is the reader's lack of =20 faith and use of the intellectual powers that are at fault. " First and foremost among these favors=85 is the gift of =20 understanding. His purpose in conferring such a gift is none other =20 except to enable His creature to know and recognize the one true God=85. = =20 This gift giveth man the power to discern the truth in all things=85." (Baha'u'llah: Gleanings, Pages: 194-195) =93The God of Mercy hath created man and taught him articulate =20 speech.=94 ( ESW p.1) I'm finding it troublesome that scholars, scientists and well educated =20= people who study religion so often make absolute statements about what =20= they are viewing as Revelations from God instead of treating it all as =20= something of a mystery still under research. Here is an excerpt from a paper I have from the late Dr. Daniel C. =20 Jordan. - "Up to the present time, modern science has concentrated entirely =20= on understanding material reality, the assumption being that this is =20 the only reality. Hence, scientific attempts to understand man have =20 reflected the same assumption, with limited results. Modern Western =20 medicine, for instance, is now confronting the evidence of successful =20= forms of healing not dependent on the cause and effect relationships =20 explicable by the laws of chemistry and physics. It is evident that =20 belief, faith, trust, and hope have an effect on patients. But, until =20= there is a science that rests on the assumption of non-actual forms of =20= reality as well as actual forms of reality, from which a new medicine =20= can be developed, modern, Western medical science will remain out of =20 touch with many of the essential realities of man which are immaterial =20= in nature, including many of those directly involved in the promotion =20= of physical health and healing." My view is that we need to remain open minded as scientists and =20 scholars and focus on the acquisition of virtues that in turn will =20 increase or intellectual powers for more efficient usage. By the way are you a religionist? If so what religion? regards, doug On Oct 18, 2008, at 11:10 PM, Number Eleven - GPEMC! wrote: > "Douglas McAdam" wrote in message > news:gv6dnSHjh5C8k2XVnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@giganews.com... > [SNIP] >> Hi Tim- >> My understanding is that all that has been revealed by Baha'u'llah =20= >> can >> be validated but it may take some time for us to become developed >> enough to do so. I do know there are some things I do not =20 >> understand, >> things they appear to be paradoxes or even contradictions but I take >> it that I am not yet developed enough to understand their unity. I >> have had similar experiences in the past and later I found validation >> because I became more deepened and saw a larger context. > > It is the responsibility of the author to make his/her point clear =20 > to the > reader and not vice versa. It is not up to the reader to resolve > Baha'u'llah's literary failings any more than it was up to Hutton's =20= > readers > to reassemble his logic in an order they could understand. This is =20 > why Lyell > reaped the benefits of Hutton's ideas - ultimately because Lyell took > responsibility for his own literary clarity and proceeded to rewrite > Hutton's ideas after a style that people could more readily =20 > understand. How > is it that an infallible "Manifestation of God" cannot do this when =20= > meagre > mortals such as Lyell, Wegener, and Einstein; with vastly more =20 > complex ideas > such as actualism, continental drift, and special relativity; =20 > express them > directly and clearly? > >> Independent Investigation of Truth to me means we must not allow our >> conditioning, our former beliefs etc. to sway our investigation of =20= >> the >> Manifestation. Once we have accepted the Manifestation we then >> independently investigate His Revelation but by not just reading His >> Writings but actually living by them. Who among us does not have >> human faults and character deficiencies that interfere with our >> rational powers of investigation? Not me for sure. > > True, and true of science - yet who is to say that the conflict of > Kitab-i-Aqdas Section 1 and the Ninth Ishraq is > > 1.) the reader's misunderstanding? > 2.) an illusion of poor writing skills? > 3.) a product of the author's multiplicity, insanity, or evolution? > > What cannot be measured cannot be investigated, and the promotion of > independent investigation of truth is a deception in absence of =20 > means by > which to investigate - especially if the outcome of the =20 > investigation as > opposed to the investigation itself is dictated by the first duty of =20= > the > philosophy under investigation! --Apple-Mail-2--746383607 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Tim-
I think you are = missing my whole point.
I'm not into having intellectual = debates about God, religion, the Manifestations and what they Reveal, = I'm saying that at this point in time we simply are not yet developed = fully enough to be able to make conclusions such as what you are doing. =  The reason we cannot investigate spiritual realities = scientifically is because we have not yet developed an appropriate = methodology.  I do not believe it would be good science to make = absolute statements about anything we are studying for we have already = proven and agree that science is an evolutionary process.  So is = religion.   But to me there is a difference between equating = science to religion and science to Revelation.  I sort of take some = of these principles as postulates to be tested.  For example there = is only One Religion of God, which is Revealed to us in successive and = successful stages to the One Humankind.  However we humans accept = the Revelator and what is being revealed and through our limited = development formulate religions which rise and decline in effectiveness. =  

Like I said, in my forty years as a = Baha'i I have run into many paradoxes, conflicts, etc. but in time they = were solved as I myself became more informed and understanding. =  The Manifestation has made all His points quite clear to the = reader, it is the reader's lack of faith and use of the intellectual = powers that are at fault.  

   =  "   His purpose in conferring such = a gift is none other except to enable His creature to know and recognize the = one true God=85. This gift giveth man the power to discern the truth in all = things=85."

(Baha'u'llah: Gleanings, Pages: 194-195)

=93T= our

conditioning, our former = beliefs etc. to sway our investigation of = the
Manifestation.  Once = we have accepted the Manifestation we then
independently investigate His Revelation but by not just = reading His
Writings but = actually living by them.  Who among us does not = have
human faults and = character deficiencies that interfere with = our
rational powers of = investigation?  Not me for sure.

True, and true = of science - yet who is to say that the conflict of
Kitab-i-Aqdas = Section 1 and the Ninth Ishraq is

1.) the reader's = misunderstanding?
2.) an illusion of poor writing skills?
3.) a = product of the author's multiplicity, insanity, or = evolution?

What cannot be measured cannot be investigated, and = the promotion of
independent investigation of truth is a deception in = absence of means by
which to investigate - especially if the outcome = of the investigation as
opposed to the investigation itself is = dictated by the first duty of the
philosophy under = investigation!

= --Apple-Mail-2--746383607-- From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Mon Oct 20 20:35:18 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BF7A4B0C25 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 20:35:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bt3TzexAR4aj for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 20:35:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 5870B4B0C22; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 20:35:17 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance From: Douglas McAdam Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:59:52 -0400 Message-ID: References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <34W Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai X-Trace: sv3-EgVh6BVmbkX8V31oiefnqmxWA5zC5JZ/1WeCplM+Hefo7hCVHcRZGqMYn/qHSNPUyVeEoE+Tt+w4l31!mWlI45dY8qptJxkigdGdmffXS2LXV0suD5TB2WtdKWrUYZDYymMFdJIcdWWsF3fpvVjhXqrTLg== NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 19:35:22 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 17:00:06 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=AXWK7rTFGKsWphqOlVqqb7kZlLoTzBezwKKA7wBsV4uXjY/6VCi16cZ8QBbz/oXGeUWe/YNFyan32CH6XLYKZYYmaHoL6al8c/JXSEWfGAQum6XqKrSxHWX6gaFDrMvwpHlljqLWIuGo3Qz9Tkm+BcyyyzK/W4J3Wxg01bi6G0E= ; X-YMail-OSG: pROLRboVM1loDWWfUJPXvfh2Fb_0JU5KXu4oak5h1DpZEZZC.ZmwQGPxHc736iSUiTM7DCeHN1L3FctqCwhV3Aipv4g85PkF1dlU2LsKAxlx3AytD4gsQTcOdKlcG1kr6kXKOFZk0ij1JABF7ArzrEGO X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-8--731426766 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Ks1r9-0006PF-Rj X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.598, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60, HTML_MESSAGE 0.00) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 X-Original-Bytes: 11688 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25510 --Apple-Mail-8--731426766 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mike- Forgive me but I hit the Send button before I had finished writing this response and so what you are reading is no doubt out of context with my original thoughts. I will endeavor to find some quality time tonight and draft up my original thoughts and send it along. So please just trash this one for now. regards, doug On Oct 20, 2008, at 12:06 AM, Douglas McAdam wrote: > Hi Mike- > I agree that this argument is a waste of time in the manner it is > being conducted but I wouldn't mind discussing anything as long as > it is done in an appropriate manner without personal criticisms, etc. > > I wonder what you think of the following- > > The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition > of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of > His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His > Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath > attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone > astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth > every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of > transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the > Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is > acceptable without the other.(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 16) > > Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this > Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and > showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity. Tablet > of Ahmad, Baha'u'llah > > > > > > > > On Oct 17, 2008, at 5:09 PM, mikeran37@yahoo.com wrote: > >> >> >> >>> I've been following this discussion only off and on from the >>> >sidelines so might have missed something but I'm not sure what >>> point >you're making. I'm quite easy with the idea that even >>> moderate >drinking may be somewhat unhealthy and reduce life >>> expectancy by a >few years. I'd be equally easy if more evidence >>> is found that >changes that view. Are you of the opinion that >>> people should be >restrained or discouraged from having mildly >>> unhealthy habits? >> >> I will restate what I have stated from the beginning. Alcohol is a >> known carcinogen. People should be informed. In much the same way >> that >> people are advised to avoid smoking. Cigarrette companies are forced >> to label their packets with warnings. There is a double standard in >> our society when it comes to alcohol. I sincerely believe, in much >> the >> same way that smoking has declined, alcohol usage will decline with >> the proper education. I'm not advocating prohibition, but I do >> believe >> that eventually alcohol will decline in it's usage (without the >> Baha'is help) simply because of the facts that be. >> >> The arguement digressed when Kent chose to acuse me of mis- >> representing the facts that be. Only, if you review his presentation, >> he has already demonstrated a serious inability to understand the >> primary literature on the subject, let alone mount such an >> accusation. >> Which at this point for my regard makes this arguement a waste of >> time. >> >> With that stated, I wouldn't disagree, Baha'u'llah has forbidden it. >> In that regard it could be the elixer of immortality, and I still >> wouldn't want it. >> >> >> > --Apple-Mail-8--731426766 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mike-
Forgive me but I = hit the Send button before I had finished writing this response and so = what you are reading is no doubt out of context with my original = thoughts.  I will endeavor to find some quality time tonight and = draft up my original thoughts and send it along.  So please just = trash this one for = now.

regards,
doug
= --Apple-Mail-8--731426766-- From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Mon Oct 20 20:35:24 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 401A84B0C2E for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 20:35:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tH5If4wmcs9s for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 20:35:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 4399D4B0C25; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 20:35:23 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 19:35:33 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 20:08:01 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: michael mccarron Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Sufi Prophecy of Baha'i ? Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 17:07:45 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-13 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: u57g2000hsf.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.181.47.168; posting-account=vTABhgoAAACGRFx3-lstbHOXbS6keRtf User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US) AppleWebKit/525.19 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.2 Safari/525.21,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HTTP-Via: 1.0 10.59.1.1 (Mikrotik HttpProxy) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Ks4mx-0006jN-5a X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-Aig3zRU8wREgnhr19Zg8F7T2WbhCnvWban7+/5qdvEbiVbk2WgZLSmyWy4wMbsHteMl2SAW9qqR7nXI!hqai4XrOsWrxysT7diZ2lurBJHgSGO0c/zxWkihtp9tQrdO2XZsfWkfdGFkMo0cb4uLMgxadaw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25511 The following prophecy about the Mahdi is from the writings of Ibn Arabi. You will notice some interesting parallels to the Baha'i Faith, noted between square brackets. ....Know--may God support us!--that God has a viceregent (khalifa) who will come forth when the earth has become filled with injustice and oppression, and will then fill it with justice and equity. Even if there were only one day left for this world, God would lengthen it so that he (i.e., the Mahdi) could rule. ...He will wipe out injustice and its people and uphold Religion (al-Din), and he will breathe the spirit back into Islam. He will reinvigorate Islam after its degradation and bring it back to life after its death. He will levy the poll-tax and call (mankind) to God with the sword, so that whoever refuses will be killed, and whoever opposes him will be forsaken. [Baha' Allah came as a reinvigorator of Islam] He will manifest Religion as it (really) is in Itself, the Religion by which the Messenger of God would judge and rule if he were there. He will eliminate the different schools (of religious law) so that only the Pure Religion (Kor. 39:3) remains, and his enemies will be those who follow blindly the 'ulama', the people of ijtihad, because they will see the Mahdi judging differently from the way followed by their imams (i.e., the historical founders of the schools of Islamic law). So they will only accept the Mahdi's authority grudgingly and against their will, because of their fear of his sword and his strength and because they covet (the power and wealth) that he possesses. But the common people of the Muslims and the greater part of the elite among them will rejoice in him, while the true Knowers of God among the People of the (spiritual) Realities will pledge allegiance to him because of God's directly informing them (of the Mahdi's true nature and mission), through (inner) unveiling and immediate witnessing. [Baha' Allahs enemies were the mujahids of Islam, Baha' Allah was befriended by the Sufi shaykhs.] the Companions (of the Prophet) who sincerely fulfilled what they had pledged to God. These Helpers are from the non-Arab peoples; none of them is Arab, although they speak only Arabic. And they have a guardian, not of their kind, who never disobeys God at all; he is the most elect of the Helpers and the most excellent of (the Mahdi's) Trusted Ones. [Baha'is were from Persia, not Arabs, but they speak Arabic on a daily basis in prayer, the Baha'i Faith has a Guardian as part of it's structure which oversees the Awliya or Helpers] Now in this verse (30:47)--which the Helpers take as their constant prayer (by day) and their inseparable companion at night--God has given them the most excellent knowledge of true sincerity (sidq), as their inner state and direct experience. So they know that true sincerity is God's sword on earth: God always gives His victorious support (nasr) to whoever stands up for someone (in the divine cause) while being distinguished by this true sincerity.... pg. 3-6 [prayer is the central act of worship in the Baha'i Faith] So if there is only one Helper, then everything he needs is united in that one person, and if they are more than one, then there are not more than nine of them, since that was the limit of the uncertainty the Messenger of God expressed in his saying concerning the rule of the Mahdi, that it was "for five, seven or nine years." And the totality of what he needs to have performed for him by his Helpers [Awliya] are nine things; there is not a tenth, nor can they be any fewer.... pg. 9 [the Awliya (members) of the Universal House of Justice in the Baha'i Faith has 9 members] Work Cited: Ibn Arabi's Futuhat 366, translated by James Morris http://www.ibnarabisociety.org/articlespdf/sp_mahdi.pdf This is an unrevised, pre-publication version of an article or translation which has subsequently been published, with revisions and corrections as Section II ('At the End of Time') in Ibn 'Arab=EE: The Meccan Revelations (co-author with W. Chittick), New York, Pir Press, 2002, pp. 65-92 and 251-275. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 22 16:08:57 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEE7D4B0AA6 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:08:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uaTZmLub4rt1 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:08:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 238024B0AA3; Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:08:57 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 15:09:03 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 11:58:41 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: mikeran37@yahoo.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 08:58:26 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <34WdnQZActBR5GjVnZ2dnUVZ_vzinZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: 79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com; posting-host=76.214.135.108; posting-account=M_40MwoAAACezPB6m4wCKE4LAJjMzCeb User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KsJcy-0003JW-AM X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-0.302, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 2.30) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-DrGopZ9tj27WDsEfIGq3OuDVO/KNiJQGXKi7wRdorznN5yX3OHiyd3R7OPAFxODO9Ax6cAOpeJ2AusS!WaiZySY0Rqnnl9/npHmPNfYsOr5WD3WgeqtzJVvV9svg0xKgg0W/JtydstUXV1S/hIQclU7kEg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25512 The major problem I have here with both Tim's and Kent's position is that neither one seems to be reading the primary literature that I am citing in defense of my premise that alcohol is a carcinogen. Whether you drink one cup a day or more than two it only linearly increases your cancer risk. About the only people who dispute this are Tim and Kent. Based on what they are presenting, I can only assume that they are sifting through it all looking for one-liners that seem to support their position. Even worse, kent cited a one liner in support of the notion that alcohol is not carcinogenic below a couple drinks a day, only when you read this article you will see that indeed it is stated my exact premise. While there are a multitude of articles on the subject proving my point, I'm going to stick with one kent cited just to keep it simple, and I'll abbreviate it, if you want the whole article, just check back a few posts. "Alcohol and Breast Cancer in Women A Pooled Analysis of Cohort Studies Stephanie A. Smith-Warner, PhD; Donna Spiegelman, JAMA. 1998;279:535-540. Objective.=97 To assess the risk of invasive breast cancer associated with total and beverage-specific alcohol consumption and to evaluate whether dietary and nondietary factors modify the association. Data Synthesis.=97 For alcohol intakes less than 60 g/d (reported by >99% of participants), risk increased linearly with increasing intake; the pooled multivariate relative risk for an increment of 10 g/d of alcohol (about 0.75-1 drink) was 1.09 (95% confidence interval [CI], 1.04-1.13; P for heterogeneity among studies, .71). The multivariate- adjusted relative risk for total alcohol intakes of 30 to less than 60 g/d (about 2-5 drinks) vs nondrinkers was 1.41 (95% CI, 1.18-1.69). Limited data suggested that alcohol intakes of at least 60 g/d were not associated with further increased risk. The specific type of alcoholic beverage did not strongly influence risk estimates. The association between alcohol intake and breast cancer was not modified by other factors. Conclusions.=97 Alcohol consumption is associated with a linear increase in breast cancer incidence in women over the range of consumption reported by most women. Among women who consume alcohol regularly, reducing alcohol consumption is a potential means to reduce breast cancer risk." My point in citing this is that no where in the scientific literature is there any study relating to breast cancer that puts a lower threshold value on the amount of alcohol that can be consumed safely. The risk of cancer increases linearly with consumption. Both Kent and Tim propose that there are lower non-carcinogenic limits to alcohol consumption, a theory that is not supported in the primary literature. This paper is not alone in this claim. I'll recite one more paper that I encourage these two to review: "Alcohol as a cause of Cancer May 2008 Authors Samara Lewis1, Suzanne Campbell2, Emma Proudfoot2, Ad=E8le Weston2, Trish Cotter1, James F Bishop1 The risk alcohol poses for cancer is large. Four standard drinks a day increase the cancer risk by 22% or with eight standard drinks a day the cancer risk increases by 90%. For each standard drink per day,the risk of breast cancer specifically increases by around 10%. " Kent, how can you call yourself a fair minded person and fail to respect the research in these two papers. Your avoidance of acknowledging this information casts serious doubt on your sincerity and credibility. What confuses people here is that the american cancer society does put an advisment out that alcohol consumption above two drinks per day increases your cancer risk, but fails to advise people about the risks below two drinks per day. Interestingly, they specifically state that there may be health benefits for certain cardiovascular patients below two drinks per day and that people should seek the counsul of their primary care physician when deciding what to do. (Which is exactly what the Baha'i position is). Both Kent and Tim are at best providing us with a poor reading of this advisement that would seem to suite their own purposes. What's been pointed out to me is that regardless, Baha'u'llah has foridden this drink and anything else which consumes reason and I can appreciate that this is the core reason for not drinking. But what the point I want to drive home is that independent of the Baha'i position our society has done a miserable job of educating people about alcohol and in spite of the overwhelming research on the subject in many areas, our society has exhibited a double standard that emboldens people like Tim to forward such absurd claims that people should drink for their health. This reminds me of the folks who back in the day adovacted smoking for long life. Hey, for the last time, I have no real position on prohibition. I'm just advocating education. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 22 16:09:17 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36CB54B0AAA for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:09:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LyeMLKZM06E0 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:09:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id AC73D4B0AB0; Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:09:16 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 15:09:37 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:49:29 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: mikeran37@yahoo.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:49:07 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <34W Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com; posting-host=76.214.135.108; posting-account=M_40MwoAAACezPB6m4wCKE4LAJjMzCeb User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KsOAO-0006iP-JD X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-0.302, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 2.30) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: <1sidnT3PQLIcFWLVnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@giganews.com> X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-Y0qsZsX9pDOfJaGEsirzywTQkpgfnPZ4g8Y53xnoDu7z5KlGDCJmPNglCda6JcZhSLpXbCZLVCnLa0I!cqj85AI2HC879A9bbV1UKw7qruo3/8oDHaKi38N0ZLmQ0j/l1nk6w5+/g5mB2aXjzociOiJe2Q== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25513 >I wonder what you think of the following- >The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition >of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His >laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause >and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained >unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though >he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who >reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, >to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. >These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the >other.(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 16) >Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this >Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and >showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity. Tablet of >Ahmad, Baha'u'llah I always liked the phrase to the effect that the beginning of all things is knowledge of God, and the end of all things is strict observance of His will. I have little doubt that if a person knows without doubt that God is all-knowing and truely believes in God, then he will have a hard time doing anything which he deems to be disdainful to God. What must then follow is the recognition of God's manifestions in our world. As I see it, that recognition is central to the meaning of life. Why? Because God created us to know and worship him. Not to His benefit but to our own, as the plant would worship the sun for it's food, we must pray and worship God for our own spiritual sustenance. It doesn't matter if the sun rises in the west or east, we must still turn to that sun like the plant for our spiritual food. Turn away from it, and you will spiritually wither and die. Just because the sun of yesterday was called Jesus, or Muhammad and now it is Baha'u'llah does little to change that this is that same sun of truth shining for our day. We can only get our light through it. To be blunt, if you turn your back on it and face where you think you used to see Jesus, you will only whither and spiritually die. "whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed." With that said, not every Baha'i recognizes Baha'u'llah or faces him. And while some non-Baha'is are pretty good authors of righteous deeds they still have failed to recognize the sun on truth. At the end of the day, it is but a select handful of people who both recognize and abide by God's will. I really couldn't claim such a status for myself other than to have the humility to know that I don't carry such a status and there are others who do. People like Romain (who posted earlier), though I don't know him, strike me as good candidates. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 22 16:09:31 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEA514B0AAA for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:09:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QA4HwaSUzz2L for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:09:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 3A3064B0AB0; Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:09:31 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 15:10:03 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 21:25:54 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Prohibition Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 18:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: g25g2000prf.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KsSTv-00033Q-C7 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.184, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, SARE_URI_DIGITS4 0.41) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-Z3FLNJkqpWeHvGx6ePl8eKTJ7XERYEiydpaG0UCI91oFWhju+bI5WUrH6QYGTYUltY+tB9l/liRRB4e!ydlst7/y5B0Ujy1Rv7mcAH+iG5gAMQOEW4tDBp4YtsogQSZ6h8zEb8xDI9ZsrueZfKmBdITcaA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118874 soc.religion.bahai:25514 alt.religion.bahai:21255 Hi Enty Ell, > Facing up to the reality > of being sober is often not easy and requires courage, determination and > perseverance - all necessary virtues. Hey virtue isn't necessary if we just make laws. Soon, if the Baha'is have their way, virtue will be enforced by Baha'i Police. We can start with alcohol, then move on to daily prayer. Can you imagine what a wonderful world it will be with Baha'i Law instituted by the Baha'i Faith? I can! --Kent On Oct 19, 8:01=A0am, "Enty Ell" wrote: > I think we need to face up to the fact that imbibing alcohol has a > pleasurable effect and this causes addiction. The relinquishing of > inhibitions and loosening of the tongue, the temporary forgetting of guil t > complexes, all contribute to an unreal atmosphere. Facing up to the reali ty > of =A0being sober is often not easy and requires courage, determination a nd > perseverance - all necessary virtues. > > "Number Eleven - GPEMC!" wrote i n > messagenews:Semdnf8L85Eu42fVnZ2dnUVZ_u6dnZ2d@giganews.com... > > > > > "Enty Ell" wrote in message > >news:ppGdnVVJDL9XkGXVnZ2dnUVZ_s3inZ2d@giganews.com... > >> "Alcoholic lead poisoning was caused by prohibition laws". False - it was > >> caused by persons drinking alcohol! > > > No, the consumer did not create the conditions by which lead could find > > its > > way into the process. These conditions were created by prohibition and so > > alcoholic lead poisnoning is not caused by consumption as this is only > > symptomatic of demand - the cause is the prohibition that effectively > > encourages the use of lead in the manufacturing process in the first > > place. > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the num...@timothycasey.info to email. > > Philosophical Essays:http://timothycasey.info > > Speed Reading:http://speed-reading-comprehension.com > > Software:http://fieldcraft.biz;Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security. > > Science & Geology:http://geologist-1011.com;http://geologist-1011.net > > Technical & Web Design:http://web-design-1011.com > > -- > > GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. Seewww.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC > > The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use. > > If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM > > Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer today! - Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 22 16:11:15 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 687744B0AD9 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:11:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z+gsTYgs2-zT for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:11:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id C89434B0ADC; Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:11:14 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 15:11:40 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 12:32:04 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=y7G6bSnKzome7jd+iNNTZmciIk7T9sXZ9xFZrsIS1X02msAEbK5FGSJlZ4YyHp4IBCcQDdJaywULBPgfHSBfaXN8PNPfqE1TIxOhYiy9hDBDJqYgpUBTV0E3+gL6431XHFb5zyImK4oo+Za7azTAcprKz6gkhTeN3qLU9lSZWco= ; X-YMail-OSG: F9lsnsoVM1lrZovVrFBvgxZDwexImuceWRQYGz8mtMYlBg6NxKb6Q8ijTFNQ00UQiJZcyWu7lB508T3jMwuhgHcNq02iynO0j97KeVp_8vdWje4CsG4IdzbhYf5JPjhKcpk- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Prohibition Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 12:31:45 -0400 References: X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Ksgcm-0000lA-3w X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-SzTKwO0yCjiKIyXsraiJlqUvZfqI9RB2yNlS+AJdFYNJIZT9yfLURdzYRsYYeuS9Y4ybjWcGyybK2zb!SsxvGQ2mhZtzFVT0fBU43/BYpU83OhAJDX3sCRBNGv1au30Q0J2wZvRaPyW2KhDouJ1XSKqwQw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25515 On Oct 19, 2008, at 8:01 AM, Enty Ell wrote: > I think we need to face up to the fact that imbibing alcohol has a > pleasurable effect and this causes addiction. The relinquishing of > inhibitions and loosening of the tongue, the temporary forgetting of > guilt > complexes, all contribute to an unreal atmosphere. Facing up to the > reality > of being sober is often not easy and requires courage, > determination and > perseverance - all necessary virtues. Well said my friend. I was a so called social drinker, which began at age 21, the legal age in Canada at the time. My parents only used alcohol on special occasions with exception of my mother who would have a glass of wine or a bottle of ale several times weekly. They never got drunk nor even seemed out of touch. I too only drank one bottle of beer at night for many years until I got into the higher society of business and sports leaders, parties, etc. and then little by little the alcohol consumption increased and eventually I became an addict of alcohol and drugs, losing my job, my family, etc. I could easily rationalize my drinking and quit a hundred times but always saved something just in case. It was not until I became a Baha'i that I quit it all and I have been clean now for forty years. So I speak from experience as a former social and recreational drinker and a full blown addict and for many years now I have been providing rehab. and addiction classes to criminals, addicts, and other dysfunctional behaviors through application of a program directly derived from the Baha'i Writings but also with back up from experts in various fields and then years of experience myself in teaching and utilizing this program. I know lots of people who were social drinkers who ended up as addicts. I know lots too who are social drinkers for years and have not had dysfunctional behaviors. But the bottom line for me is that I am a Baha'i and Baha'u'llah prohibits alcohol except under medical condition by a certified physician. And since Baha'u'llah has given us the harmony of science and religion and faith and reason then if He prohibits alcohol then there will be a reason for it that we will discover by science in time. However I do not go around preaching to people about such things. I tolerate my neighbors, associates, etc. even though they are social drinkers but I do not tolerate alcohol and if asked will say so and why. I recognize these addictions and dysfunctional behaviors are a real problem in society and so I opted to do what I can to help living souls to lead more productive lives. I love people and so I would not ever advise they drink alcohol if asked. Many of us Baha'is who are mature have to deal with alcoholics and drug addicts who come into the Baha'i Faith and we do so with loving kindness. The addicts and all criminals at the Jail where I teach tell me that this is the first time in their lives that anyone has treated them with respect and dignity and yet I give them the direct truth when asked. God bless, doug From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Thu Oct 23 01:51:51 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 135C04B0E51 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 2008 01:51:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kzN0djcpuFdL for ; Thu, 23 Oct 2008 01:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id A8ACA4B0E56; Thu, 23 Oct 2008 01:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 00:51:53 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:43:58 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.4.0.080122 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 09:43:34 -1100 Subject: Re: Prohibition From: Bill Hyman Thread-Topic: Prohibition Thread-Index: Ack0htm7GFDIDqB6Ed25VgAwZXfiJg== In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at blueskynet.as X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KskYc-0006u7-LJ X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-3VgvN4QdVlRoIKDeVlpu0NEnuVffqIeGt+lCRcJnR3LYvXX5RWOOOsnnhxCEL9rLxJowPxTzkEBLoos!RT+dPGx3bQQPWIP6JWtWZ97Ezv64j4gG8LpbuyKwwVFpljNAMQqlOlyLTGnWqqg27SDtUDj9Eg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25516 On 10/21/08 2:23 PM, "compx2" wrote: > Hey virtue isn't necessary if we just make laws. Soon, if the Baha'is > have their way, virtue will be enforced by Baha'i Police. We can > start with alcohol, then move on to daily prayer. Can you imagine > what a wonderful world it will be with Baha'i Law instituted by the > Baha'i Faith? I can! > > --Kent When Baha'u'llah's teachings really take root it will be the virtues which will prevent the Baha'is from breaking the laws. Bill From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Thu Oct 23 01:51:59 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 918E04B0E63 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 2008 01:51:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q6lZz5uYhnRG for ; Thu, 23 Oct 2008 01:51:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 415294B0E65; Thu, 23 Oct 2008 01:51:59 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 00:52:08 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 19:38:17 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=5vhHdvLWbMbJQneDplCOD9YHueHsZ1/p6vYkIdfb3IhztLw1qqaiIkbHftWKzWpxZahYBk7/BAwNqWRFZcitX8NSCS77JacFA7KezRVQFHArYAbgN+gkzqFTxboKfbtQfSmLBIUPVanCtA1kDGDdo32KPlH8PWdJksTm1CHfJ8Y= ; X-YMail-OSG: wt8MibcVM1lVlHV1AP0DLRuyIWHZVeQjFOA51xkAP232wq7Xlq6huWxhdE_PkZQsC1PTK8CvDKGq98qXOd0vIXV7.LSE3p1dg_iylKjsnun.fL7aa7oMq_a_.Olf1XgS9eNqx8t.FLeMbpnAGyaRs94sBpWZJnKPWfC.wtA- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: Douglas McAdam In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Prohibition Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 19:38:02 -0400 References: X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KsnHK-00055P-4n X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: <6uadnd63-NaVjJ3UnZ2dnUVZ_iydnZ2d@giganews.com> X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-2yWZfZPCrmiouGMLpZxKO8eZVTwznJPH0KZquR0+222qrsW3o88LK+4I1aSV0orDRdABGL3BY+8O29W!j3+gu79MYBOndneX2WGFlIOK3R1TMTNMN9I/QjPvVLgE8HAzchkfOuk4A++vbVQyXPGwqgV7bw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25517 On Oct 21, 2008, at 9:23 PM, compx2 wrote: > Hi Enty Ell, > >> Facing up to the reality >> of being sober is often not easy and requires courage, >> determination and >> perseverance - all necessary virtues. > > Hey virtue isn't necessary if we just make laws. Soon, if the Baha'is > have their way, virtue will be enforced by Baha'i Police. We can > start with alcohol, then move on to daily prayer. Can you imagine > what a wonderful world it will be with Baha'i Law instituted by the > Baha'i Faith? I can! > > --Kent Odedience to God' Laws is a virtue. And finally, yes the world will be the Kingdom of God on earth as prophesied when Baha'i Law is established. peace, doug From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Thu Oct 23 01:52:21 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C01C4B0E63 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 2008 01:52:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MRFDg3KmO0NQ for ; Thu, 23 Oct 2008 01:52:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 2C6DE4B0E6D; Thu, 23 Oct 2008 01:52:19 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 00:52:41 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 01:48:19 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 22:46:09 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <34WdnQZActBR5GjVnZ2dnUVZ_vzinZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: d70g2000hsc.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kst3H-0006Fb-BK X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-BwdjjC+oTqsr7KcBMJ48nL1LS7t4NMCkSQVlk/7HVEasNX0jX/lU+dz1RMgHpKvVwQHgEPrKA2Z47i0!GcjtX6N/TIf5LjP0+QBchgrkviYPsTXzFbVIVB0BqIqJoKng6DL0A6atusH4SHIR3/qlBZ9dkg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25518 Hi Mike, I am reading the primary literature, and despite your insistence, the literature does not state, show, or even clearly imply linearly increased cancer risk. You, however, extrapolate data to assert it. The studies themselves continue to recommend moderate alcohol use. You read into the data what you want to, and accuse me of not being able to do so. Certainly, I could interpret the data any way I choose, but I am rather letting the studies you cite interpret their own data. And what they say is that moderate alcohol use is okay. You, however, extrapolate and interpret to make a point that is not in the studies. Why? Is it your version of the Baha'i Faith that makes you do so? --Kent On Oct 21, 11:58=A0am, mikera...@yahoo.com wrote: > The major problem I have here with both Tim's and Kent's position is > that neither one seems to be reading the primary literature that I am > citing in defense of my premise that alcohol is a carcinogen. Whether > you drink one cup a day or more than two it only linearly increases > your cancer risk. About the only people who dispute this are Tim =A0and > Kent. Based on what they are presenting, I can only assume that they > are sifting through it all looking for one-liners that seem to support > their position. Even worse, kent =A0cited a one liner in support of the > notion that alcohol is not carcinogenic below a couple drinks a day, > only when you read this article you will see that indeed it is stated > my exact premise. While there are a multitude of articles on the > subject proving my point, I'm going to stick with one kent cited just > to keep it simple, and I'll abbreviate it, if you want the whole > article, just check back a few posts. > > "Alcohol and Breast Cancer in Women > A Pooled Analysis of Cohort Studies > > Stephanie A. Smith-Warner, PhD; Donna Spiegelman, > > JAMA. 1998;279:535-540. > > Objective.=97 To assess the risk of invasive breast cancer associated > with total and beverage-specific alcohol consumption and to evaluate > whether dietary and nondietary factors modify the association. > > > Data Synthesis.=97 For alcohol intakes less than 60 g/d (reported by>99% of participants), risk increased linearly with increasing intake; > > the pooled multivariate relative risk for an increment of 10 g/d of > alcohol (about 0.75-1 drink) was 1.09 (95% confidence interval [CI], > 1.04-1.13; P for heterogeneity among studies, .71). The multivariate- > adjusted relative risk for total alcohol intakes of 30 to less than > 60 > g/d (about 2-5 drinks) vs nondrinkers was 1.41 (95% CI, 1.18-1.69). > Limited data suggested that alcohol intakes of at least 60 g/d were > not associated with further increased risk. The specific type of > alcoholic beverage did not strongly influence risk estimates. The > association between alcohol intake and breast cancer was not modified > by other factors. > > Conclusions.=97 Alcohol consumption is associated with a linear > increase > in breast cancer incidence in women over the range of consumption > reported by most women. Among women who consume alcohol regularly, > reducing alcohol consumption is a potential means to reduce breast > cancer risk." > > =A0My point in citing this is that no where in the scientific literature > is there any study relating to breast cancer that puts a lower > threshold value on the amount of alcohol that can be consumed safely. > The risk of cancer increases linearly with consumption. Both Kent and > Tim propose that there are lower non-carcinogenic limits to alcohol > consumption, a theory that is not supported in the primary literature. > This paper is not alone in this claim. I'll recite one more paper that > I encourage these two to review: > > "Alcohol as a cause of Cancer > May 2008 > Authors > Samara Lewis1, Suzanne Campbell2, Emma Proudfoot2, Ad=E8le Weston2, > Trish > Cotter1, James F Bishop1 > > The risk alcohol poses for cancer is large. Four standard drinks a > day > increase the cancer risk by 22% > or with eight standard drinks a day the cancer risk increases by 90%. > For each standard drink per day,the risk of breast cancer > specifically > increases by around 10%. " > > =A0 Kent, how can you call yourself a fair minded person and fail to > respect the research in these two papers. Your avoidance of > acknowledging this information casts serious doubt on your sincerity > and credibility. > > =A0 What confuses people here is that the american cancer society does > put an advisment out that alcohol consumption above two drinks per day > increases your cancer risk, but fails to advise people about the risks > below two drinks per day. Interestingly, they specifically state that > there may be health benefits for certain cardiovascular patients below > two drinks per day and that people should seek the counsul of their > primary care physician when deciding what to do. (Which is exactly > what the Baha'i position is). Both Kent and Tim are at best providing > us with a poor reading of this advisement that would seem to suite > their own purposes. > > =A0 What's been pointed out to me is that regardless, Baha'u'llah has > foridden this drink and anything else which consumes reason and I can > appreciate that this is the core reason for not drinking. But what the > point I want to drive home is that independent of the Baha'i position > our society has done a miserable job of educating people about alcohol > and in spite of the overwhelming research on the subject in many > areas, our society has exhibited a double standard that emboldens > people like Tim to forward such absurd claims that people should drink > for their health. This reminds me of the folks who back in the day > adovacted smoking for long life. > > =A0 Hey, for the last time, I have no real position on prohibition. I'm > just advocating education. From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Thu Oct 23 20:54:49 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A1A14B0934 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 2008 20:54:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4Wa60IKy8DpE for ; Thu, 23 Oct 2008 20:54:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 5E7264B0931; Thu, 23 Oct 2008 20:54:48 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 19:54:47 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 15:58:49 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) In-Reply-To: References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <34WdnQZActBR5GjVnZ2dnUVZ_vzinZ2d@giganews.com> Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 08:51:03 -1100 X-yoursite-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-yoursite-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kt6KS-00066O-Gt X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-a0Opt6LUInA/z836gyzh6JBvr6e5KMbT8Y8ZX1avljc9UtkXPI4BKTlO2SK9kyJzSHzyXJVlBLSlNqm!QiXLgsBySqouwd7E3x7qKro6OsY2mZpxPYFSHYr47sF6xEtaqoFVIr291ARyAow/ErA34es/xA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25519 Hello Kent, Each of us reflects the Revealed Word in a different manner just as the many colored objects in the world have different colors caused by reflections from the one physical sun. Baha'u'llah tells us to focus on the Source of the Light and try to be the purest reflectors we can, be pious and humble and set our goals towards unity and light and concord instead of division and fire and hatred. The Bahai revealation will result in the World becoming a most beautiful place. It appears that you have a heartfelt concern for the future of the Faith but the Ancient of Days is in charge so don't worry. Baha'u'llah has come with the "new wine skins". God will perfect His Light. "Truth is one point which the foolish have multiplied." There is a quote that goes something like: If you think you possess a truth that someone else does not know, then tell them. If they accept what you say then good, if not then leave them to themselves. Also, when you talk to someone the Writings say: "use words as mild as milk" and your words will be a "fount of wisdom". This has been very hard for me but I keep trying. "Consort with the followers of all religions." "Pray to God and He will give you Light." There is another quote in the very beginning of Kitab i Iqan that says something like "unless and until he stops regarding the words and deeds of mortal men as the standard...." which is very beautiful and a guiding light. peace, unity and loving kindness, john John Ludgate ph: 684-699-2097, fax: 699-2047, cell: 733-3566 On Oct 22, 2008, at 6:46 PM, compx2 wrote: > Hi Mike, > > I am reading the primary literature, and despite your insistence, the > literature does not state, show, or even clearly imply linearly > increased cancer risk. > > You, however, extrapolate data to assert it. The studies themselves > continue to recommend moderate alcohol use. You read into the data > what you want to, and accuse me of not being able to do so. > Certainly, I could interpret the data any way I choose, but I am > rather letting the studies you cite interpret their own data. > > And what they say is that moderate alcohol use is okay. You, however, > extrapolate and interpret to make a point that is not in the studies. > Why? Is it your version of the Baha'i Faith that makes you do so? > > --Kent > > On Oct 21, 11:58=A0am, mikera...@yahoo.com wrote: >> The major problem I have here with both Tim's and Kent's position is >> that neither one seems to be reading the primary literature that I am >> citing in defense of my premise that alcohol is a carcinogen. Whether >> you drink one cup a day or more than two it only linearly increases >> your cancer risk. About the only people who dispute this are Tim =A0and >> Kent. Based on what they are presenting, I can only assume that they >> are sifting through it all looking for one-liners that seem to support >> their position. Even worse, kent =A0cited a one liner in support of the >> notion that alcohol is not carcinogenic below a couple drinks a day, >> only when you read this article you will see that indeed it is stated >> my exact premise. While there are a multitude of articles on the >> subject proving my point, I'm going to stick with one kent cited just >> to keep it simple, and I'll abbreviate it, if you want the whole >> article, just check back a few posts. >> >> "Alcohol and Breast Cancer in Women >> A Pooled Analysis of Cohort Studies >> >> Stephanie A. Smith-Warner, PhD; Donna Spiegelman, >> >> JAMA. 1998;279:535-540. >> >> Objective.=97 To assess the risk of invasive breast cancer associated >> with total and beverage-specific alcohol consumption and to evaluate >> whether dietary and nondietary factors modify the association. >> >> >> Data Synthesis.=97 For alcohol intakes less than 60 g/d (reported by>99% > of participants), risk increased linearly with increasing intake; >> >> the pooled multivariate relative risk for an increment of 10 g/d of >> alcohol (about 0.75-1 drink) was 1.09 (95% confidence interval [CI], >> 1.04-1.13; P for heterogeneity among studies, .71). The multivariate- >> adjusted relative risk for total alcohol intakes of 30 to less than >> 60 >> g/d (about 2-5 drinks) vs nondrinkers was 1.41 (95% CI, 1.18-1.69). >> Limited data suggested that alcohol intakes of at least 60 g/d were >> not associated with further increased risk. The specific type of >> alcoholic beverage did not strongly influence risk estimates. The >> association between alcohol intake and breast cancer was not modified >> by other factors. >> >> Conclusions.=97 Alcohol consumption is associated with a linear >> increase >> in breast cancer incidence in women over the range of consumption >> reported by most women. Among women who consume alcohol regularly, >> reducing alcohol consumption is a potential means to reduce breast >> cancer risk." >> >> =A0My point in citing this is that no where in the scientific literature >> is there any study relating to breast cancer that puts a lower >> threshold value on the amount of alcohol that can be consumed safely. >> The risk of cancer increases linearly with consumption. Both Kent and >> Tim propose that there are lower non-carcinogenic limits to alcohol >> consumption, a theory that is not supported in the primary literature. >> This paper is not alone in this claim. I'll recite one more paper that >> I encourage these two to review: >> >> "Alcohol as a cause of Cancer >> May 2008 >> Authors >> Samara Lewis1, Suzanne Campbell2, Emma Proudfoot2, Ad=E8le Weston2, >> Trish >> Cotter1, James F Bishop1 >> >> The risk alcohol poses for cancer is large. Four standard drinks a >> day >> increase the cancer risk by 22% >> or with eight standard drinks a day the cancer risk increases by 90%. >> For each standard drink per day,the risk of breast cancer >> specifically >> increases by around 10%. " >> >> =A0 Kent, how can you call yourself a fair minded person and fail to >> respect the research in these two papers. Your avoidance of >> acknowledging this information casts serious doubt on your sincerity >> and credibility. >> >> =A0 What confuses people here is that the american cancer society does >> put an advisment out that alcohol consumption above two drinks per day >> increases your cancer risk, but fails to advise people about the risks >> below two drinks per day. Interestingly, they specifically state that >> there may be health benefits for certain cardiovascular patients below >> two drinks per day and that people should seek the counsul of their >> primary care physician when deciding what to do. (Which is exactly >> what the Baha'i position is). Both Kent and Tim are at best providing >> us with a poor reading of this advisement that would seem to suite >> their own purposes. >> >> =A0 What's been pointed out to me is that regardless, Baha'u'llah has >> foridden this drink and anything else which consumes reason and I can >> appreciate that this is the core reason for not drinking. But what the >> point I want to drive home is that independent of the Baha'i position >> our society has done a miserable job of educating people about alcohol >> and in spite of the overwhelming research on the subject in many >> areas, our society has exhibited a double standard that emboldens >> people like Tim to forward such absurd claims that people should drink >> for their health. This reminds me of the folks who back in the day >> adovacted smoking for long life. >> >> =A0 Hey, for the last time, I have no real position on prohibition. I'm >> just advocating education. > > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Sun Oct 26 18:21:47 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18BF24B0918 for ; Sun, 26 Oct 2008 18:21:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gphrG2HiNN4f for ; Sun, 26 Oct 2008 18:21:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id D57944B0925; Sun, 26 Oct 2008 18:21:45 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 17:22:27 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 21:49:52 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 18:45:48 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <34WdnQZActBR5GjVnZ2dnUVZ_vzinZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.21.161; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KtBoB-0004Sw-Vf X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-z32taEqfuPiX324ZnfdTFyiIVhIUqsftn7AosLbz576gX6TWICRUKTGYUpLCvYZfQioDZlGzUSM9JqK!ifiOdLwEu3S2fYy31op6S+6q+HB+Pr+fMGOkeHmFk7F4pH8/co7c+yfXvTFj6m4bEBdxonT1Nw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25520 Thank you, John, for your wise and tolerant words. I can only hope there are other wise and tolerant Baha'is lurking, or perhaps some future Baha'i or future tolerant person will see your comment: "If you think you possess a truth that someone else does not know, then tell them. If they accept what you say then good, if not then leave them to themselves." The truth I possess is that it is a good thing that Baha'is don't agree. I am happy for all of you that you have a different truth from mine. I believe it will independently lead you to greater truth, if you are indeed independently seeking truth. Your starting point is so different from mine that we can hardly expect to agree on anything, and that can lead to great, varied diverse and wonderful truths, if we only keep investigating. However, my truth obliges me to point out the intolerance of the views the Baha'is here express so openly. It is not a pretty site from my vantage point. --Kent On Oct 23, 3:51=A0pm, John Ludgate wrote: > Hello Kent, > > Each of us reflects the Revealed Word in a different manner just as the > > many colored objects in the world have different colors caused by > reflections from the one physical sun. Baha'u'llah tells us to focus on > > the Source of the Light and try to be the purest reflectors we can, be > > pious and humble and set our goals towards unity and light and concord > > instead of division and fire and hatred. The Bahai revealation will > result in the World becoming a most beautiful place. It appears that > you have a heartfelt concern for the future of the Faith but the > Ancient of Days is in charge so don't worry. Baha'u'llah has come with > > the "new wine skins". God will perfect His Light. > > "Truth is one point which the foolish have multiplied." There is a > quote that goes something like: If you think you possess a truth that > someone else does not know, then tell them. If they accept what you say > > then good, if not then leave them to themselves. Also, when you talk to > > someone the Writings say: "use words as mild as milk" and your words > will be a "fount of wisdom". This has been very hard for me but I keep > > trying. "Consort with the followers of all religions." "Pray to God and > > He will give you Light." > > There is another quote in the very beginning of Kitab i Iqan that says > > something like "unless and until he stops regarding the words and deeds > > of mortal men as the standard...." which is very beautiful and a > guiding light. > > peace, unity and loving kindness, > > john > John Ludgate > ph: 684-699-2097, fax: 699-2047, cell: 733-3566 > On Oct 22, 2008, at 6:46 PM, compx2 wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Mike, > > > I am reading the primary literature, and despite your insistence, the > > literature does not state, show, or even clearly imply linearly > > increased cancer risk. > > > You, however, extrapolate data to assert it. =A0The studies themselves > > continue to recommend moderate alcohol use. =A0You read into the data > > what you want to, and accuse me of not being able to do so. > > Certainly, I could interpret the data any way I choose, but I am > > rather letting the studies you cite interpret their own data. > > > And what they say is that moderate alcohol use is okay. =A0You, however , > > extrapolate and interpret to make a point that is not in the studies. > > Why? =A0Is it your version of the Baha'i Faith that makes you do so? > > > --Kent > > > On Oct 21, 11:58=A0am, mikera...@yahoo.com wrote: > >> The major problem I have here with both Tim's and Kent's position is > >> that neither one seems to be reading the primary literature that I am > >> citing in defense of my premise that alcohol is a carcinogen. Whether > >> you drink one cup a day or more than two it only linearly increases > >> your cancer risk. About the only people who dispute this are Tim =A0an d > >> Kent. Based on what they are presenting, I can only assume that they > >> are sifting through it all looking for one-liners that seem to > support > >> their position. Even worse, kent =A0cited a one liner in support of > the > >> notion that alcohol is not carcinogenic below a couple drinks a day, > >> only when you read this article you will see that indeed it is stated > >> my exact premise. While there are a multitude of articles on the > >> subject proving my point, I'm going to stick with one kent cited just > >> to keep it simple, and I'll abbreviate it, if you want the whole > >> article, just check back a few posts. > > >> "Alcohol and Breast Cancer in Women > >> A Pooled Analysis of Cohort Studies > > >> Stephanie A. Smith-Warner, PhD; Donna Spiegelman, > > >> JAMA. 1998;279:535-540. > > >> Objective.=97 To assess the risk of invasive breast cancer associated > >> with total and beverage-specific alcohol consumption and to evaluate > >> whether dietary and nondietary factors modify the association. > >> > > >> Data Synthesis.=97 For alcohol intakes less than 60 g/d (reported > by>99% > > of participants), risk increased linearly with increasing intake; > > >> the pooled multivariate relative risk for an increment of 10 g/d of > >> alcohol (about 0.75-1 drink) was 1.09 (95% confidence interval [CI], > >> 1.04-1.13; P for heterogeneity among studies, .71). The multivariate- > >> adjusted relative risk for total alcohol intakes of 30 to less than > >> 60 > >> g/d (about 2-5 drinks) vs nondrinkers was 1.41 (95% CI, 1.18-1.69). > >> Limited data suggested that alcohol intakes of at least 60 g/d were > >> not associated with further increased risk. The specific type of > >> alcoholic beverage did not strongly influence risk estimates. The > >> association between alcohol intake and breast cancer was not modified > >> by other factors. > > >> Conclusions.=97 Alcohol consumption is associated with a linear > >> increase > >> in breast cancer incidence in women over the range of consumption > >> reported by most women. Among women who consume alcohol regularly, > >> reducing alcohol consumption is a potential means to reduce breast > >> cancer risk." > > >> =A0My point in citing this is that no where in the scientific > literature > >> is there any study relating to breast cancer that puts a lower > >> threshold value on the amount of alcohol that can be consumed safely. > >> The risk of cancer increases linearly with consumption. Both Kent and > >> Tim propose that there are lower non-carcinogenic limits to alcohol > >> consumption, a theory that is not supported in the primary > literature. > >> This paper is not alone in this claim. I'll recite one more paper > that > >> I encourage these two to review: > > >> "Alcohol as a cause of Cancer > >> May 2008 > >> Authors > >> Samara Lewis1, Suzanne Campbell2, Emma Proudfoot2, Ad=E8le Weston2, > >> Trish > >> Cotter1, James F Bishop1 > > >> The risk alcohol poses for cancer is large. Four standard drinks a > >> day > >> increase the cancer risk by 22% > >> or with eight standard drinks a day the cancer risk increases by 90%. > >> For each standard drink per day,the risk of breast cancer > >> specifically > >> increases by around 10%. " > > >> =A0 Kent, how can you call yourself a fair minded person and fail to > >> respect the research in these two papers. Your avoidance of > >> acknowledging this information casts serious doubt on your sincerity > >> and credibility. > > >> =A0 What confuses people here is that the american cancer society > does > >> put an advisment out that alcohol consumption above two drinks per > day > >> increases your cancer risk, but fails to advise people about the > risks > >> below two drinks per day. Interestingly, they specifically state that > >> there may be health benefits for certain cardiovascular patients > below > >> two drinks per day and that people should seek the counsul of their > >> primary care physician when deciding what to do. (Which is exactly > >> what the Baha'i position is). Both Kent and Tim are at best providing > >> us with a poor reading of this advisement that would seem to suite > >> their own purposes. > > >> =A0 What's been pointed out to me is that regardless, Baha'u'llah has > >> foridden this drink and anything else which consumes reason and I can > >> appreciate that this is the core reason for not drinking. But what > the > >> point I want to drive home is that independent of the Baha'i position > >> our society has done a miserable job of educating people about > alcohol > >> and in spite of the overwhelming research on the subject in many > >> areas, our society has exhibited a double standard that emboldens > >> people like Tim to forward such absurd claims that people should > drink > >> for their health. This reminds me of the folks who back in the day > >> adovacted smoking for long life. > > >> =A0 Hey, for the last time, I have no real position on prohibition. > I'm > >> just advocating education.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Mon Oct 27 18:27:50 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 258F54B06FA for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2008 18:27:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yve+qWX0HnDl for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2008 18:27:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 96CDB4B070F; Mon, 27 Oct 2008 18:27:49 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 17:28:07 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 20:19:17 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: Susan Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 17:19:00 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: q9g2000hsb.googlegroups.com; posting-host=76.107.89.62; posting-account=gtZNrgoAAADgBahMtWCWhGggkEcamn6r User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.0.3) Gecko/2008092417 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KuFpA-0007Zf-3k X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-8UOWZ7cumgDRwwSXmos7UBFJxQa6saHh4ukz11GWoc18jWFJ4P/QZCApg/QswRBcDOfn2KtOefSh7vC!1ERrgSOYgwfyw068P2YKWVwO18N2mnI/TNqWSs5ZjEtZd1mBFwY9AhJ8hNXFP0fVyOt3YexE+A== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118930 soc.religion.bahai:25521 alt.religion.bahai:21262 > Then why not translate it as sinless, protected, or otherwise. > Why use infallible if infallible is not intended? That is one of the meanings of infallibility. > > The thing that I find most obnoxious about psychology literature is the > tendency to arbitrarily redefine words from the English language when > existing vocabulary can be used more effectively. I'm don't think 'protected' would convey the meaning any better. Neither would sinless unless we make it very clear what we mean by sinless. > > If it does not correctly tranlslate back to the Arabic or Persian for > "infallible" then I think that the translation was wrong to begin with. It translates back as an Arabic word, not an English one. :-) > > Also Kent, where in the Writings, either in the source language or in > > any other language is the Manifestation referred to as "She"? =A0 In Persian personal pronouns have no gender. So 'She' would be as accurate a translation as 'He.' The same is not true for Arabic in which the personal pronoun referring to God is always "He." > Did the manifestation apply the masculine gender to God? He did when He was writing in Arabic. > Or did Effendi simply apply the default gender used in English? You were a Baha'i once weren't you? Why are you referring to the Guardian as Effendi? Effendi means "Mr." > > This is a question of language that goes beyond default genders and the > differences in Persian and English in that what universally defines the m ale > gender is the inability to create or conceive life. For example, the corr ect > gender for organisms that reproduce asexually is female. Therefore I woul d > expect the correct gender for the Creator of life is female, as a matter of > definition and out of recognition of the role of Creator. Only if we are talking about natural processes. This is precisely the reason that monotheistic religions have typically conceived of God as male rather than female. He was supposed to transcend nature rather than be imminent in it. It all goes back to the conception of Mother Earth and Father Sky. Hopefully we are beginning to move away from that and I think Baha'u'llah's conception of the Divine Huri (Heavenly Maiden) is a step in that direction. But I suspect it will not be complete until we have a female Manifestation. > > If I remember correctly, the original gender of God was female, and it wa s > changed, illogically in my view, just after the flooding of the Black Sea > about 7500 years ago. In polytheistic religions a mother goddess was frequently worshiped in addition to gods. To my knowledge there has never been a monotheistic religion which conceived of God as female. warmest, Susan From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Mon Oct 27 18:27:53 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CCAF4B070F for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2008 18:27:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hRcZ639lkExn for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2008 18:27:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 2F4294B0760; Mon, 27 Oct 2008 18:27:52 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 17:28:10 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 20:32:07 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: Susan Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 17:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> <77C47669-07EF-43E5-94A4-349E1097B6D1@sbcglobal.net> <8eudnY1HLpqSsWnVnZ2dnUVZ_vCdnZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com; posting-host=76.107.89.62; posting-account=gtZNrgoAAADgBahMtWCWhGggkEcamn6r User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.0.3) Gecko/2008092417 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KuG1c-0000Da-DI X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-zpVIcLl6oaaYjOQYjyn/HBMi+Wl6CpuOX3h4+3mhptFYO5v/NaXu30aMAxc70fcxfF9rRXddDroht9w!estp814+aBqweQ4d1yLQKN8PXD9KgrN5HYdpeCMop3p6iKDoTIetdQgB8RuKxzTYWITCFfm2+Q== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118931 soc.religion.bahai:25522 alt.religion.bahai:21263 > It is the responsibility of the author to make his/her point clear to the > reader and not vice versa. Dear Tim, You are forgetting that Baha'u'llah's immediate audience was people who spoke Persian and Arabic and were already quite familiar with Baha'u'llah's vocabulary. How > is it that an infallible "Manifestation of God" cannot do this when meagre > mortals such as Lyell, Wegener, and Einstein; with vastly more complex ideas > such as actualism, continental drift, and special relativity; express them > directly and clearly? Just because you can't understand them does not make them unintelligible. Not everyone understood what Jesus said either. > > True, and true of science - yet who is to say that the conflict of > Kitab-i-Aqdas Section 1 and the Ninth Ishraq is > > 1.) the reader's misunderstanding? > 2.) an illusion of poor writing skills? > 3.) a product of the author's multiplicity, insanity, or evolution? What conflict are you talking about? > > What cannot be measured cannot be investigated, and the promotion of > independent investigation of truth is a deception in absence of means by > which to investigate - especially if the outcome of the investigation as > opposed to the investigation itself is dictated by the first duty of the > philosophy under investigation! It can't be investigated by means of physical sciences. You need other tools. Baha'u'llah describes those tools in the portion of the Kitab-i Iqan we frequently call the Tablet of the True Seeker. warmest, Susan From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Mon Oct 27 18:29:12 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 094EA4B0760 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2008 18:29:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wg-N5cFkPIvd for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2008 18:29:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 2A8E64B0788; Mon, 27 Oct 2008 18:29:10 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 17:29:09 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 16:15:23 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) In-Reply-To: References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <34WdnQZActBR5GjVnZ2dnUVZ_vzinZ2d@giganews.com> Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 09:07:57 -1100 X-yoursite-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-yoursite-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KuYUW-00036p-1E X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-xdyTRg/2nCvkL67t7W4cDkiNWMKCYG88UcSG/sC1pmHT8PEAoH6XSH0rmGVuURPKsMlkC6CJRb0cVWa!/NfENvGt2LN7MtjlgBeDLsx2qbfOLoYR2iYONIr5KEOsoyHy3QUeQKgpv0XAAw3rwYNgkYNt1A== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 X-Original-Bytes: 13467 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25523 Hello Kent, I am sure that that there are many others lurking on this list who have very tender hearts and keen minds and loving ways and just do not want to get into any arguments. For myself, I am happy to discuss any ideas with anyone but do not care to be mired in arguments too but to maintain respectful ways. I try to keep in mind the "clear tokens" that I have received from "the Dawning-Place of the clear tokens" and remain thankful for being guided to the "Dayspring of the signs" of God. The "Manifestation of the Excellent Names" tells us in the Kitab-i-Iqan that "Knowledge is of two kinds: Divine and Satanic. The one welleth out from the fountain of divine inspiration; the other is but a reflection of vain and obscure thoughts. The source of the former is God Himself; the motive-force of the latter the whisperings of selfish desire. The one is guided by the principle: "Fear ye God; God will teach you;" the other is but a confirmation of the truth: "Knowledge is the most grievous veil between man and his Creator." The former bringeth forth the fruit of patience, of longing desire, of true understanding, and love; whilst the latter can yield naught but arrogance, vainglory and conceit." So Bahaullah has given us a litmus test for knowledge. Judge it by it's fruits. The Bahai faith is about love and peace and unity. May we each find it in our lives. with loving kindness, john John Ludgate ph: 684-699-2097, fax: 699-2047, cell: 733-3566 On Oct 23, 2008, at 2:45 PM, compx2 wrote: > Thank you, John, for your wise and tolerant words. I can only hope > there are other wise and tolerant Baha'is lurking, or perhaps some > future Baha'i or future tolerant person will see your comment: "If you > think you possess a truth that someone else does not know, then tell > them. If they accept what you say then good, if not then leave them to > themselves." > > The truth I possess is that it is a good thing that Baha'is don't > agree. I am happy for all of you that you have a different truth from > mine. I believe it will independently lead you to greater truth, if > you are indeed independently seeking truth. Your starting point is so > different from mine that we can hardly expect to agree on anything, > and that can lead to great, varied diverse and wonderful truths, if we > only keep investigating. > > However, my truth obliges me to point out the intolerance of the views > the Baha'is here express so openly. It is not a pretty site from my > vantage point. > > --Kent > > On Oct 23, 3:51=A0pm, John Ludgate wrote: >> Hello Kent, >> >> Each of us reflects the Revealed Word in a different manner just as >> the >> >> many colored objects in the world have different colors caused by >> reflections from the one physical sun. Baha'u'llah tells us to focus >> on >> >> the Source of the Light and try to be the purest reflectors we can, be >> >> pious and humble and set our goals towards unity and light and concord >> >> instead of division and fire and hatred. The Bahai revealation will >> result in the World becoming a most beautiful place. It appears that >> you have a heartfelt concern for the future of the Faith but the >> Ancient of Days is in charge so don't worry. Baha'u'llah has come with >> >> the "new wine skins". God will perfect His Light. >> >> "Truth is one point which the foolish have multiplied." There is a >> quote that goes something like: If you think you possess a truth that >> someone else does not know, then tell them. If they accept what you >> say >> >> then good, if not then leave them to themselves. Also, when you talk >> to >> >> someone the Writings say: "use words as mild as milk" and your words >> will be a "fount of wisdom". This has been very hard for me but I keep >> >> trying. "Consort with the followers of all religions." "Pray to God >> and >> >> He will give you Light." >> >> There is another quote in the very beginning of Kitab i Iqan that says >> >> something like "unless and until he stops regarding the words and >> deeds >> >> of mortal men as the standard...." which is very beautiful and a >> guiding light. >> >> peace, unity and loving kindness, >> >> john >> John Ludgate >> ph: 684-699-2097, fax: 699-2047, cell: 733-3566 >> On Oct 22, 2008, at 6:46 PM, compx2 wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>> Hi Mike, >> >>> I am reading the primary literature, and despite your insistence, the >>> literature does not state, show, or even clearly imply linearly >>> increased cancer risk. >> >>> You, however, extrapolate data to assert it. =A0The studies themselves >>> continue to recommend moderate alcohol use. =A0You read into the data >>> what you want to, and accuse me of not being able to do so. >>> Certainly, I could interpret the data any way I choose, but I am >>> rather letting the studies you cite interpret their own data. >> >>> And what they say is that moderate alcohol use is okay. =A0You, however > , >>> extrapolate and interpret to make a point that is not in the studies. >>> Why? =A0Is it your version of the Baha'i Faith that makes you do so? >> >>> --Kent >> >>> On Oct 21, 11:58=A0am, mikera...@yahoo.com wrote: >>>> The major problem I have here with both Tim's and Kent's position is >>>> that neither one seems to be reading the primary literature that I >>>> am >>>> citing in defense of my premise that alcohol is a carcinogen. >>>> Whether >>>> you drink one cup a day or more than two it only linearly increases >>>> your cancer risk. About the only people who dispute this are Tim =A0an > d >>>> Kent. Based on what they are presenting, I can only assume that they >>>> are sifting through it all looking for one-liners that seem to >> support >>>> their position. Even worse, kent =A0cited a one liner in support of >> the >>>> notion that alcohol is not carcinogenic below a couple drinks a  day, >>>> only when you read this article you will see that indeed it is >>>> stated >>>> my exact premise. While there are a multitude of articles on the >>>> subject proving my point, I'm going to stick with one kent cited >>>> just >>>> to keep it simple, and I'll abbreviate it, if you want the whole >>>> article, just check back a few posts. >> >>>> "Alcohol and Breast Cancer in Women >>>> A Pooled Analysis of Cohort Studies >> >>>> Stephanie A. Smith-Warner, PhD; Donna Spiegelman, >> >>>> JAMA. 1998;279:535-540. >> >>>> Objective.=97 To assess the risk of invasive breast cancer associated >>>> with total and beverage-specific alcohol consumption and to evaluate >>>> whether dietary and nondietary factors modify the association. >>>> >> >>>> Data Synthesis.=97 For alcohol intakes less than 60 g/d (reported >> by>99% >>> of participants), risk increased linearly with increasing intake; >> >>>> the pooled multivariate relative risk for an increment of 10 g/d of >>>> alcohol (about 0.75-1 drink) was 1.09 (95Qonfidence interval [CI], >>>> 1.04-1.13; P for heterogeneity among studies, .71). The >>>> multivariate- >>>> adjusted relative risk for total alcohol intakes of 30 to less than >>>> 60 >>>> g/d (about 2-5 drinks) vs nondrinkers was 1.41 (95% CI, 1.18-1.69). >>>> Limited data suggested that alcohol intakes of at least 60 g/d were >>>> not associated with further increased risk. The specific type of >>>> alcoholic beverage did not strongly influence risk estimates. The >>>> association between alcohol intake and breast cancer was not >>>> modified >>>> by other factors. >> >>>> Conclusions.=97 Alcohol consumption is associated with a linear >>>> increase >>>> in breast cancer incidence in women over the range of consumption >>>> reported by most women. Among women who consume alcohol regularly, >>>> reducing alcohol consumption is a potential means to reduce breast >>>> cancer risk." >> >>>> =A0My point in citing this is that no where in the scientific >> literature >>>> is there any study relating to breast cancer that puts a lower >>>> threshold value on the amount of alcohol that can be consumed >>>> safely. >>>> The risk of cancer increases linearly with consumption. Both Kent >>>> and >>>> Tim propose that there are lower non-carcinogenic limits to alcohol >>>> consumption, a theory that is not supported in the primary >> literature. >>>> This paper is not alone in this claim. I'll recite one more paper >> that >>>> I encourage these two to review: >> >>>> "Alcohol as a cause of Cancer >>>> May 2008 >>>> Authors >>>> Samara Lewis1, Suzanne Campbell2, Emma Proudfoot2, Ad=E8le Weston2, >>>> Trish >>>> Cotter1, James F Bishop1 >> >>>> The risk alcohol poses for cancer is large. Four standard drinks a >>>> day >>>> increase the cancer risk by 22% >>>> or with eight standard drinks a day the cancer risk increases by >>>> 90%. >>>> For each standard drink per day,the risk of breast cancer >>>> specifically >>>> increases by around 10%. " >> >>>> =A0 Kent, how can you call yourself a fair minded person and fail to >>>> respect the research in these two papers. Your avoidance of >>>> acknowledging this information casts serious doubt on your sincerity >>>> and credibility. >> >>>> =A0 What confuses people here is that the american cancer society >> does >>>> put an advisment out that alcohol consumption above two drinks per >> day >>>> increases your cancer risk, but fails to advise people about the >> risks >>>> below two drinks per day. Interestingly, they specifically state >>>> that >>>> there may be health benefits for certain cardiovascular patients >> below >>>> two drinks per day and that people should seek the counsul of their >>>> primary care physician when deciding what to do. (Which is exactly >>>> what the Baha'i position is). Both Kent and Tim are at best >>>> providing >>>> us with a poor reading of this advisement that would seem to suite >>>> their own purposes. >> >>>> =A0 What's been pointed out to me is that regardless, Baha'u'llah has >>>> foridden this drink and anything else which consumes reason and I >>>> can >>>> appreciate that this is the core reason for not drinking. But what >> the >>>> point I want to drive home is that independent of the Baha'i >>>> position >>>> our society has done a miserable job of educating people about >> alcohol >>>> and in spite of the overwhelming research on the subject in many >>>> areas, our society has exhibited a double standard that emboldens >>>> people like Tim to forward such absurd claims that people should >> drink >>>> for their health. This reminds me of the folks who back in the day >>>> adovacted smoking for long life. >> >>>> =A0 Hey, for the last time, I have no real position on prohibition. >> I'm >>>> just advocating education.- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 29 17:22:00 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75F0E4B0927 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 2008 17:21:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MlGmb7r-JNf4 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 2008 17:21:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 241BB4B0914; Wed, 29 Oct 2008 17:21:10 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:21:36 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 19:47:05 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: PaulHammond Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,soc.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai Subject: Re: What are Baha'i Writings? Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 16:46:53 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <54adnSgYEPElMEvVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com; posting-host=81.109.65.74; posting-account=xYgNZAkAAAAX2Gy_ALiaitufV0ujYcJc User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KuyH9-0002i4-24 X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-c77BA1jPkziESB/euNu83AxmphZms7vmPZL/PmF0BnqlPnUCL6ghv0nmUzixMz2PTNCoKpn0DbNszKw!Lm0AgdbBhp+q5DNgNG2O1HeoJGoLzFD2rU9CtqUDhszT9VA5eAikQskpfistGsX7v8WizsucpQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 X-Original-Bytes: 5604 Xref: harmony.bcca.org talk.religion.bahai:118961 soc.religion.bahai:25524 alt.religion.bahai:21264 These are probably faintly off-topic responses to a couple of things I noticed in this post. On 27 Oct, 00:19, Susan wrote: > Tim wrote: " For example, the correct gender for organisms that reproduce asexually is female. " Why? I think, if this is so, it is simply a matter of convention - or else an analogy with the fact that in larger animals new creatures emerge from the bodies of the female creature, whether that be a live birth or an egg. For my money, for organisms that ONLY reproduce asexually the notion of gender is entirely inappropriate. Bacteria reproduce asexually (by fission) in the main, but AIUI, in times of stress they can also perform a form of sexual reproduction. I've seen the cell that donates genetic material, and the cell that receives it referred to as "+" and "-" before - which I suppose is an attempt to describe what's happening without confusing the issue by thinking of these cells as "gendered" - I don't know for sure, but I think that the same bacterial cell can be doners or receivers of material at different times. > Only if we are talking about natural processes. This is precisely the > reason that monotheistic religions have typically conceived of God as > male rather than female. He was supposed to transcend nature rather > than be imminent in it. It all goes back to the conception of Mother > Earth and Father Sky. Hopefully we are beginning to move away from > that and I think Baha'u'llah's conception of the Divine Huri (Heavenly > Maiden) is a step in that direction. But I suspect it will not be > complete until we have a female Manifestation. > > > > > If I remember correctly, the original gender of God was female, and it wa > s > > changed, illogically in my view, just after the flooding of the Black Sea > > about 7500 years ago. > > In polytheistic religions a mother goddess was frequently worshiped in > addition to gods. To my knowledge there has never been a monotheistic > religion which conceived of God as female. > What I have very commonly seen is an assertion that the large numbers of little stone figures of apparently feminine form that date back to either the neolithic or the mesolithic era are evidence that our "original" religion was a form of goddess worship. To me, that seems like a highly tendentious claim, motivated more by notions of 60s feminism as a correction to patriarchal western culture than a dispassionate evaluation of the archaelogical evidence. Since these finds are prehistoric, by definition there are no written sources to help us work out what the function of these figurines was, so any suggestions of their purpose have some element of speculation. It could be that these things were that culture's equivalent of Barbie dolls rather than something that formed a part of their religion. I think Susan is right, and that most likely these things were representations of the same kind of mother goddesses or sex goddesses as we find in ancient Greek culture represented by such figures as Hera and Aphrodite (but who wants to identify with Hera, the eternal nagging wife? lets prefer Gaia, from the earlier generations of gods!) Paul From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 29 17:22:09 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5CD84B0CE8 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 2008 17:22:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m9SHxFqKrEZv for ; Wed, 29 Oct 2008 17:22:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 7B7954B0CD2; Wed, 29 Oct 2008 17:22:08 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:22:09 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 08:08:20 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: compx2 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 05:05:18 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <34WdnQZActBR5GjVnZ2dnUVZ_vzinZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: l77g2000hse.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.119.2.209; posting-account=BYnkfAoAAAA2L-x75FwddKOc3OzFuBFm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1Kv9qP-0007YH-7c X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-R8o/NUSugRD2e4YOqInIVoNrxkkMpmwX7HlT0zevV0yi2OtOQFb0AltkKDZMtwzRBhZpvEzLza96MrZ!+EaO7ECJEAUwVcDhqrx++ihzJcSwyMv30JtHWswuJjDKqvA8V/ycvTxHOYmCIMiVT3W5wETbzw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25525 Hi John, I enjoyed reading your tolerant and wise words. I certainly appreciate the fact that many Baha'is, both the tolerant ones and the intolerant ones, for many reasons would not want to contend their views in public. I think this is the place for people with reasonable views to assert, modify, revise, and discuss their views. People who want to investigate, both the Baha'is who do so because of the Command and non- Baha'is who do so for simple pleasure, curiousity, or to follow promptings of their own Authorities, should be able to come here and examine these varied and contradicting Baha'i beliefs. Perhaps you see disagreement as contention. How do you see the fruits of the more important, tolerant and reasonable world opinion reaching the less important, intolerant and irrational Baha'i opinion without disagreement? It seems to me Baha'is need to investigate more thoroughly before accepting such opinions as those commonly expressed Baha'i opinions the we see here (like God punishing those who don't recognize Baha'u'llah, and universal prohibition of alcohol). How can that be accomplished, in your mind? --Kent On Oct 27, 4:07=A0pm, John Ludgate wrote: > Hello Kent, > > I am sure that that there are many others lurking on this list who have > > very tender hearts and keen minds and loving ways and just do not want > > to get into any arguments. For myself, I am happy to discuss any ideas > > with anyone but do not care to be mired in arguments too but to > maintain respectful ways. I try to keep in mind the "clear tokens" that > > I have received from "the Dawning-Place of the clear tokens" and remain > > thankful for being guided to the "Dayspring of the signs" of God. > > The "Manifestation of the Excellent Names" tells us in the Kitab-i-Iqan > > that "Knowledge is of two kinds: Divine and Satanic. The one welleth > out from the fountain of divine inspiration; the other is but a > reflection of vain and obscure thoughts. The source of the former is > God Himself; the motive-force of the latter the whisperings of selfish > > desire. The one is guided by the principle: "Fear ye God; God will > teach you;" the other is but a confirmation of the truth: "Knowledge is > > the most grievous veil between man and his Creator." The former > bringeth forth the fruit of patience, of longing desire, of true > understanding, and love; whilst the latter can yield naught but > arrogance, vainglory and conceit." > > So Bahaullah has given us a litmus test for knowledge. Judge it by it's > > fruits. The Bahai faith is about love and peace and unity. May we each > > find it in our lives. > > with loving kindness, > > john > > John Ludgate > ph: 684-699-2097, fax: 699-2047, cell: 733-3566 > On Oct 23, 2008, at 2:45 PM, compx2 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, John, for your wise and tolerant words. =A0I can only hope > > there are other wise and tolerant Baha'is lurking, or perhaps some > > future Baha'i or future tolerant person will see your comment: "If you > > think you possess a truth that someone else does not know, then tell > > them. If they accept what you say then good, if not then leave them to > > themselves." > > > The truth I possess is that it is a good thing that Baha'is don't > > agree. =A0I am happy for all of you that you have a different truth fro m > > mine. =A0I believe it will independently lead you to greater truth, if > > you are indeed independently seeking truth. =A0Your starting point is s o > > different from mine that we can hardly expect to agree on anything, > > and that can lead to great, varied diverse and wonderful truths, if we > > only keep investigating. > > > However, my truth obliges me to point out the intolerance of the views > > the Baha'is here express so openly. =A0It is not a pretty site from my > > vantage point. > > > --Kent > > > On Oct 23, 3:51=A0pm, John Ludgate wrote: > >> Hello Kent, > > >> Each of us reflects the Revealed Word in a different manner just as > >> the > > >> many colored objects in the world have different colors caused by > >> reflections from the one physical sun. Baha'u'llah tells us to focus > >> on > > >> the Source of the Light and try to be the purest reflectors we can, > be > > >> pious and humble and set our goals towards unity and light and > concord > > >> instead of division and fire and hatred. The Bahai revealation will > >> result in the World becoming a most beautiful place. It appears that > >> you have a heartfelt concern for the future of the Faith but the > >> Ancient of Days is in charge so don't worry. Baha'u'llah has come > with > > >> the "new wine skins". God will perfect His Light. > > >> "Truth is one point which the foolish have multiplied." There is a > >> quote that goes something like: If you think you possess a truth that > >> someone else does not know, then tell them. If they accept what you > >> say > > >> then good, if not then leave them to themselves. Also, when you talk > >> to > > >> someone the Writings say: "use words as mild as milk" and your words > >> will be a "fount of wisdom". This has been very hard for me but I > keep > > >> trying. "Consort with the followers of all religions." "Pray to God > >> and > > >> He will give you Light." > > >> There is another quote in the very beginning of Kitab i Iqan that > says > > >> something like "unless and until he stops regarding the words and > >> deeds > > >> of mortal men as the standard...." which is very beautiful and a > >> guiding light. > > >> peace, unity and loving kindness, > > >> john > >> John Ludgate > >> ph: 684-699-2097, fax: 699-2047, cell: 733-3566 > >> On Oct 22, 2008, at 6:46 PM, compx2 wrote: > > >>> Hi Mike, > > >>> I am reading the primary literature, and despite your insistence, > the > >>> literature does not state, show, or even clearly imply linearly > >>> increased cancer risk. > > >>> You, however, extrapolate data to assert it. =A0The studies > themselves > >>> continue to recommend moderate alcohol use. =A0You read into the > data > >>> what you want to, and accuse me of not being able to do so. > >>> Certainly, I could interpret the data any way I choose, but I am > >>> rather letting the studies you cite interpret their own data. > > >>> And what they say is that moderate alcohol use is okay. =A0You, > however > > , > >>> extrapolate and interpret to make a point that is not in the > studies. > >>> Why? =A0Is it your version of the Baha'i Faith that makes you do so? > > >>> --Kent > > >>> On Oct 21, 11:58=A0am, mikera...@yahoo.com wrote: > >>>> The major problem I have here with both Tim's and Kent's position > is > >>>> that neither one seems to be reading the primary literature that I > >>>> am > >>>> citing in defense of my premise that alcohol is a carcinogen. > >>>> Whether > >>>> you drink one cup a day or more than two it only linearly increases > >>>> your cancer risk. About the only people who dispute this are Tim > =A0an > > d > >>>> Kent. Based on what they are presenting, I can only assume that > they > >>>> are sifting through it all looking for one-liners that seem to > >> support > >>>> their position. Even worse, kent =A0cited a one liner in support of > >> the > >>>> notion that alcohol is not carcinogenic below a couple drinks a =A0 > day, > >>>> only when you read this article you will see that indeed it is > >>>> stated > >>>> my exact premise. While there are a multitude of articles on the > >>>> subject proving my point, I'm going to stick with one kent cited > >>>> just > >>>> to keep it simple, and I'll abbreviate it, if you want the whole > >>>> article, just check back a few posts. > > >>>> "Alcohol and Breast Cancer in Women > >>>> A Pooled Analysis of Cohort Studies > > >>>> Stephanie A. Smith-Warner, PhD; Donna Spiegelman, > > >>>> JAMA. 1998;279:535-540. > > >>>> Objective.=97 To assess the risk of invasive breast cancer > associated > >>>> with total and beverage-specific alcohol consumption and to > evaluate > >>>> whether dietary and nondietary factors modify the association. > >>>> > > >>>> Data Synthesis.=97 For alcohol intakes less than 60 g/d (reported > >> by>99% > >>> of participants), risk increased linearly with increasing intake; > > >>>> the pooled multivariate relative risk for an increment of 10 g/d of > >>>> alcohol (about 0.75-1 drink) was 1.09 (95Qonfidence interval > [CI], > >>>> 1.04-1.13; P for heterogeneity among studies, .71). The > >>>> multivariate- > >>>> adjusted relative risk for total alcohol intakes of 30 to less than > >>>> 60 > >>>> g/d (about 2-5 drinks) vs nondrinkers was 1.41 (95% CI, 1.18-1.69). > >>>> Limited data suggested that alcohol intakes of at least 60 g/d were > >>>> not associated with further increased risk. The specific type of > >>>> alcoholic beverage did not strongly influence risk estimates. The > >>>> association between alcohol intake and breast cancer was not > >>>> modified > >>>> by other factors. > > >>>> Conclusions.=97 Alcohol consumption is associated with a linear > >>>> increase > >>>> in breast cancer incidence in women over the range of consumption > >>>> reported by most women. Among women who consume alcohol regularly, > >>>> reducing alcohol consumption is a potential means to reduce breast > >>>> cancer risk." > > >>>> =A0My point in citing this is that no where in the scientific > >> literature > >>>> is there any study relating to breast cancer that puts a lower > >>>> threshold value on the amount of alcohol that can be consumed > >>>> safely. > >>>> The risk of cancer increases linearly with consumption. Both Kent > >>>> and > >>>> Tim propose that there are lower non-carcinogenic limits to alcohol > >>>> consumption, a theory that is not supported in the primary > >> literature. > >>>> This paper is not alone in this claim. I'll recite one more paper > >> that > >>>> I encourage these two to review: > > >>>> "Alcohol as a cause of Cancer > >>>> May 2008 > >>>> Authors > >>>> Samara Lewis1, Suzanne Campbell2, Emma Proudfoot2, Ad=E8le Weston2, > >>>> Trish > >>>> Cotter1, James F Bishop1 > > >>>> The risk alcohol poses for cancer is large. Four standard drinks a > >>>> day > >>>> increase the cancer risk by 22% > >>>> or with eight standard drinks a day the cancer risk increases by > >>>> 90%. > >>>> For each standard drink per day,the risk of breast cancer > >>>> specifically > >>>> increases by around 10%. " > > >>>> =A0 Kent, how can you call yourself a fair minded person and fail > to > >>>> respect the research in these two papers. Your avoidance of > >>>> acknowledging this information casts serious doubt on your > sincerity > >>>> and credibility. > > >>>> =A0 What confuses people here is that the american cancer society > >> does > >>>> put an advisment out that alcohol consumption above two drinks per > >> day > >>>> increases your cancer risk, but fails to advise people about the > >> risks > >>>> below two drinks per day. Interestingly, they specifically state > >>>> that > >>>> there may be health benefits for certain cardiovascular patients > >> below > >>>> two drinks per day and that people should seek the counsul of their > >>>> primary care physician when deciding what to do. (Which is exactly > >>>> what the Baha'i position is). Both Kent and Tim are at best > >>>> providing > >>>> us with a poor reading of this advisement that would seem to suite > >>>> their own purposes. > > >>>> =A0 What's been pointed out to me is that regardless, Baha'u'llah > has > >>>> foridden this drink and anything > > ... > > read more =BB- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 29 17:22:14 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AABB4B0CD2 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 2008 17:22:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ayb4EjC1FSqc for ; Wed, 29 Oct 2008 17:22:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id D38754B0CE8; Wed, 29 Oct 2008 17:22:13 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:22:18 -0500 Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 08:42:30 -0400 Delivered-To: srb@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org From: mikeran37@yahoo.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Who Is the Greatest? Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 05:42:07 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: p39g2000hsb.googlegroups.com; posting-host=76.214.135.108; posting-account=M_40MwoAAACezPB6m4wCKE4LAJjMzCeb User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KvANI-0003WI-TT X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-0.302, required 5, BAYES_00 -2.60, FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 2.30) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-PZRjbcyLJv44vlFje1NG41KP7v/8e+1GBOgfNNlRR3GGeogXljdR+PkN+7LowO3qlCx4s8c/VABTrr/!RzYtjFg+2Iyx0aorgvhblUBaJltQnLTdpo1q7gP2QYIcRsY2cyVVTUpo+IEg4HgV038vyFRbbw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25526 "For what thou hast done, thy kingdom shall be thrown into confusion, and thine empire shall pass from thine hands, as a punishment for that which thou hast wrought. Then wilt thou know how thou hast plainly erred. Commotions shall seize all the people in that land, unless thou arisest to help this Cause, and followest Him Who is the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) in this, the Straight Path. Hath thy pomp made thee proud? By My Life! It shall not endure; nay, it shall soon pass away, unless thou holdest fast by this firm Cord. We see abasement hastening after thee, whilst thou art of the heedless. It behooveth thee when thou hearest His Voice calling from the seat of glory to cast away all that thou possessest, and cry out: 'Here am I, O Lord of all that is in heaven and all that is on earth!' (Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 51) And further We have said: "He Who is the Father is come, and the Son (Jesus Christ), in the holy vale, crieth out: 'Here am I, here am I, O Lord, my God!', whilst Sinai circleth round the House, and the Burning Bush calleth aloud: 'The All-Bounteous is come mounted upon the clouds! Blessed is he that draweth nigh unto Him, and woe betide them that are far away.' (Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 57) From owner-bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Wed Oct 29 19:48:29 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bahai-faith-out@bcca.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBA7C4B0C7C for ; Wed, 29 Oct 2008 19:48:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Received: from harmony.bcca.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (harmony.bcca.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28lj91Dp3F8Q for ; Wed, 29 Oct 2008 19:48:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harmony.bcca.org (Postfix, from userid 9) id 15C914B0C8B; Wed, 29 Oct 2008 19:48:28 -0400 (EDT) Errors-to: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org Precedence: bulk Sender: bahai-faith-request@bcca.org To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 18:48:51 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Envelope-to: srb@vocshop.com Delivery-date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 18:49:18 -0400 Delivered-To: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harmony.bcca.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) In-Reply-To: References: <6sWdnWkBKK68fnvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <18mdndnWNpbhJXfVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com> <34WdnQZActBR5GjVnZ2dnUVZ_vzinZ2d@giganews.com> Subject: Re: Religious Tolerance Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:40:02 -1100 X-yoursite-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-yoursite-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-ID: 1KvJqj-0007Tf-Jb X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.599, required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-From: owner-bahai-faith@bcca.org Message-ID: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-rHzniZgK8/6KH8+9wDkcfxnlWE9zc+vphdacMs+KYAgrse1IVtC6E75BbqNFQtopSYnrX/kAw5D7maE!eigJsEBBOg7+HS4v+DyfksvPsKD0Kdc00bZQXXUTV5JNkTny6i4Tq+FuFN+VFvLNkxyBSy19lA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Xref: harmony.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25527 Hello Kent, My words were mostly those of Baha'u'llah, hince the wisdom and tolerance. I will try my own which will be much less wise and tolerant and full of errors and may allow someone to put me into one of their favorite people groupings. We seem to have grown fond of grouping/dividing people: wise-foolish, Environment friendly - not environment friendly, scientist - not a scientist, us-them, real americans - others, good-bad, agree with me - don't. I don't think that this is so very helpful to shining a light on important issues or in helping us move towards unity or truth. The scientific method is one good way to try to get people to agree with each other about how the physical world works without arguing. Scientists should not have to argue with each other to try to prove their truth. Our knowledge is aways evolving - both our scientific and spritual knowledge and it always possesses truths and errors. If we are each trying to get to the "truth" of the matter then many minds are usually better than one but we need to be able to consult (not argue). If I push someone into a category other than me and slap a label on him and try to dismiss him/her then this does not contribute to consultation and the search for the truth. I do not necessarily see disagreement as contention but it can be that if we are not kindly to each other. I have not found any Bahai beliefs to be contradictory so let me know what you find to be so. People's reflections of the Bahai writings may be contradictory but that does not make the Writings to be contradictory. I strive to reflect the truths that I find in the Writings in my own behavior and pray that they will make my utterance spread more light than fire. Light is always clearly visiable amidst it's absence so if we Bahais can better reflect the Words of this Bahai Revealation then this will attract those who are not blind. No one can know who will be punished by God who will be exalted so I really try not to judge other people's opinions except that I may not share them. with loving kindness, john John Ludgate ph: 684-699-2097, fax: 699-2047, cell: 733-3566 On Oct 29, 2008, at 1:05 AM, compx2 wrote: > Hi John, > > I enjoyed reading your tolerant and wise words. > > I certainly appreciate the fact that many Baha'is, both the tolerant > ones and the intolerant ones, for many reasons would not want to > contend their views in public. > > I think this is the place for people with reasonable views to assert, > modify, revise, and discuss their views. People who want to > investigate, both the Baha'is who do so because of the Command and non- > Baha'is who do so for simple pleasure, curiousity, or to follow > promptings of their own Authorities, should be able to come here and > examine these varied and contradicting Baha'i beliefs. > > Perhaps you see disagreement as contention. > > How do you see the fruits of the more important, tolerant and > reasonable world opinion reaching the less important, intolerant and > irrational Baha'i opinion without disagreement? > > It seems to me Baha'is need to investigate more thoroughly before > accepting such opinions as those commonly expressed Baha'i opinions > the we see here (like God punishing those who don't recognize > Baha'u'llah, and universal prohibition of alcohol). > > How can that be accomplished, in your mind? > > --Kent > > > > On Oct 27, 4:07=A0pm, John Ludgate wrote: >> Hello Kent, >> >> I am sure that that there are many others lurking on this list who >> have >> >> very tender hearts and keen minds and loving ways and just do not want >> >> to get into any arguments. For myself, I am happy to discuss any ideas >> >> with anyone but do not care to be mired in arguments too but to >> maintain respectful ways. I try to keep in mind the "clear tokens" >> that >> >> I have received from "the Dawning-Place of the clear tokens" and >> remain >> >> thankful for being guided to the "Dayspring of the signs" of God. >> >> The "Manifestation of the Excellent Names" tells us in the >> Kitab-i-Iqan >> >> that "Knowledge is of two kinds: Divine and Satanic. The one welleth >> out from the fountain of divine inspiration; the other is but a >> reflection of vain and obscure thoughts. The source of the former is >> God Himself; the motive-force of the latter the whisperings of selfish >> >> desire. The one is guided by the principle: "Fear ye God; God will >> teach you;" the other is but a confirmation of the truth: "Knowledge >> is >> >> the most grievous veil between man and his Creator." The former >> bringeth forth the fruit of patience, of longing desire, of true >> understanding, and love; whilst the latter can yield naught but >> arrogance, vainglory and conceit." >> >> So Bahaullah has given us a litmus test for knowledge. Judge it by >> it's >> >> fruits. The Bahai faith is about love and peace and unity. May we each >> >> find it in our lives. >> >> with loving kindness, >> >> john >> >> John Ludgate >> ph: 684-699-2097, fax: 699-2047, cell: 733-3566 >> On Oct 23, 2008, at 2:45 PM, compx2 wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> Thank you, John, for your wise and tolerant words. =A0I can only hope >>> there are other wise and tolerant Baha'is lurking, or perhaps some >>> future Baha'i or future tolerant person will see your comment: "If >>> you >>> think you possess a truth that someone else does not know, then tell >>> them. If they accept what you say then good, if not then leave them >>> to >>> themselves." >> >>> The truth I possess is that it is a good thing that Baha'is don't >>> agree. =A0I am happy for all of you that you have a different truth fro > m >>> mine. =A0I believe it will independently lead you to greater truth, if >>> you are indeed independently seeking truth. =A0Your starting point is s > o >>> different from mine that we can hardly expect to agree on anything, >>> and that can lead to great, varied diverse and wonderful truths, if >>> we >>> only keep investigating. >> >>> However, my truth obliges me to point out the intolerance of the >>> views >>> the Baha'is here express so openly. =A0It is not a pretty site from my >>> vantage point. >> >>> --Kent >> >>> On Oct 23, 3:51=A0pm, John Ludgate wrote: >>>> Hello Kent, >> >>>> Each of us reflects the Revealed Word in a different manner just as >>>> the >> >>>> many colored objects in the world have different colors caused by >>>> reflections from the one physical sun. Baha'u'llah tells us to focus >>>> on >> >>>> the Source of the Light and try to be the purest reflectors we can, >> be >> >>>> pious and humble and set our goals towards unity and light and >> concord >> >>>> instead of division and fire and hatred. The Bahai revealation will >>>> result in the World becoming a most beautiful place. It appears that >>>> you have a heartfelt concern for the future of the Faith but the >>>> Ancient of Days is in charge so don't worry. Baha'u'llah has come >> with >> >>>> the "new wine skins". God will perfect His Light. >> >>>> "Truth is one point which the foolish have multiplied." There is a >>>> quote that goes something like: If you think you possess a truth >>>> that >>>> someone else does not know, then tell them. If they accept what you >>>> say >> >>>> then good, if not then leave them to themselves. Also, when you talk >>>> to >> >>>> someone the Writings say: "use words as mild as milk" and your words >>>> will be a "fount of wisdom". This has been very hard for me but I >> keep >> >>>> trying. "Consort with the followers of all religions." "Pray to God >>>> and >> >>>> He will give you Light." >> >>>> There is another quote in the very beginning of Kitab i Iqan that >> says >> >>>> something like "unless and until he stops regarding the words and >>>> deeds >> >>>> of mortal men as the standard...." which is very beautiful and a >>>> guiding light. >> >>>> peace, unity and loving kindness, >> >>>> john >>>> John Ludgate >>>> ph: 684-699-2097, fax: 699-2047, cell: 733-3566 >>>> On Oct 22, 2008, at 6:46 PM, compx2 wrote: >> >>>>> Hi Mike, >> >>>>> I am reading the primary literature, and despite your insistence, >> the >>>>> literature does not state, show, or even clearly imply linearly >>>>> increased cancer risk. >> >>>>> You, however, extrapolate data to assert it. =A0The studies >> themselves >>>>> continue to recommend moderate alcohol use. =A0You read into the >> data >>>>> what you want to, and accuse me of not being able to do so. >>>>> Certainly, I could interpret the data any way I choose, but I am >>>>> rather letting the studies you cite interpret their own data. >> >>>>> And what they say is that moderate alcohol use is okay. =A0You, >> however >>> , >>>>> extrapolate and interpret to make a point that is not in the >> studies. >>>>> Why? =A0Is it your version of the Baha'i Faith that makes you do so? >> >>>>> --Kent >> >>>>> On Oct 21, 11:58=A0am, mikera...@yahoo.com wrote: >>>>>> The major problem I have here with both Tim's and Kent's position >> is >>>>>> that neither one seems to be reading the primary literature that I >>>>>> am >>>>>> citing in defense of my premise that alcohol is a carcinogen. >>>>>> Whether >>>>>> you drink one cup a day or more than two it only linearly >>>>>> increases >>>>>> your cancer risk. About the only people who dispute this are Tim >> =A0an >>> d >>>>>> Kent. Based on what they are presenting, I can only assume that >> they >>>>>> are sifting through it all looking for one-liners that seem to >>>> support >>>>>> their position. Even worse, kent =A0cited a one liner in support of >>>> the >>>>>> notion that alcohol is not carcinogenic below a couple drinks a =A0 >> day, >>>>>> only when you read this article you will see that indeed it is >>>>>> stated >>>>>> my exact premise. While there are a multitude of articles on the >>>>>> subject proving my point, I'm going to stick with one kent cited >>>>>> just >>>>>> to keep it simple, and I'll abbreviate it, if you want the whole >>>>>> article, just check back a few posts. >> >>>>>> "Alcohol and Breast Cancer in Women >>>>>> A Pooled Analysis of Cohort Studies >> >>>>>> Stephanie A. Smith-Warner, PhD; Donna Spiegelman, >> >>>>>> JAMA. 1998;279:535-540. >> >>>>>> Objective.=97 To assess the risk of invasive breast cancer >> associated >>>>>> with total and beverage-specific alcohol consumption and to >> evaluate >>>>>> whether dietary and nondietary factors modify the association. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Data Synthesis.=97 For alcohol intakes less than 60 g/d (reported >>>> by>99% >>>>> of participants), risk increased linearly with increasing intake; >> >>>>>> the pooled multivariate relative risk for an increment of 10 g/d >>>>>> of >>>>>> alcohol (about 0.75-1 drink) was 1.09 (95Qonfidence interval >> [CI], >>>>>> 1.04-1.13; P for heterogeneity among studies, .71). The >>>>>> multivariate- >>>>>> adjusted relative risk for total alcohol intakes of 30 to less >>>>>> than >>>>>> 60 >>>>>> g/d (about 2-5 drinks) vs nondrinkers was 1.41 (95I, >>>>>> 1.18-1.69). >>>>>> Limited data suggested that alcohol intakes of at least 60 g/d >>>>>> were >>>>>> not associated with further increased risk. The specific type of >>>>>> alcoholic beverage did not strongly influence risk estimates. The >>>>>> association between alcohol intake and breast cancer was not >>>>>> modified >>>>>> by other factors. >> >>>>>> Conclusions.=97 Alcohol consumption is associated with a linear >>>>>> increase >>>>>> in breast cancer incidence in women over the range of consumption >>>>>> reported by most women. Among women who consume alcohol regularly, >>>>>> reducing alcohol consumption is a potential means to reduce breast >>>>>> cancer risk." >> >>>>>> =A0My point in citing this is that no where in the scientific >>>> literature >>>>>> is there any study relating to breast cancer that puts a lower >>>>>> threshold value on the amount of alcohol that can be consumed >>>>>> safely. >>>>>> The risk of cancer increases linearly with consumption. Both Kent >>>>>> and >>>>>> Tim propose that there are lower non-carcinogenic limits to >>>>>> alcohol >>>>>> consumption, a theory that is not supported in the primary >>>> literature. >>>>>> This paper is not alone in this claim. I'll recite one more paper >>>> that >>>>>> I encourage these two to review: >> >>>>>> "Alcohol as a cause of Cancer >>>>>> May 2008 >>>>>> Authors >>>>>> Samara Lewis1, Suzanne Campbell2, Emma Proudfoot2, Ad=E8le Weston2, >>>>>> Trish >>>>>> Cotter1, James F Bishop1 >> >>>>>> The risk alcohol poses for cancer is large. Four standard drinks a >>>>>> day >>>>>> increase the cancer risk by 22% >>>>>> or with eight standard drinks a day the cancer risk increases by >>>>>> 90%. >>>>>> For each standard drink per day,the risk of breast cancer >>>>>> specifically >>>>>> increases by around 10%. " >> >>>>>> =A0 Kent, how can you call yourself a fair minded person and fail >> to >>>>>> respect the research in these two papers. Your avoidance of >>>>>> acknowledging this information casts serious doubt on your >> sincerity >>>>>> and credibility. >> >>>>>> =A0 What confuses people here is that the american cancer society >>>> does >>>>>> put an advisment out that alcohol consumption above two drinks per >>>> day >>>>>> increases your cancer risk, but fails to advise people about the >>>> risks >>>>>> below two drinks per day. Interestingly, they specifically state >>>>>> that >>>>>> there may be health benefits for certain cardiovascular patients >>>> below >>>>>> two drinks per day and that people should seek the counsul of >>>>>> their >>>>>> primary care physician when deciding what to do. (Which is exactly >>>>>> what the Baha'i position is). Both Kent and Tim are at best >>>>>> providing >>>>>> us with a poor reading of this advisement that would seem to suite >>>>>> their own purposes. >> >>>>>> =A0 What's been pointed out to me is that regardless, Baha'u'llah >> has >>>>>> foridden this drink and anything >> >> ... >> >> read more =BB- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > >

<= div>On Oct 20, 2008, at 12:06 AM, Douglas McAdam wrote:

Hi Mike-
I agree that this = argument is a waste of time in the manner it is being conducted but I = wouldn't mind discussing anything as long as it is done in an = appropriate manner without personal criticisms, = etc.

I wonder what you think of the = following-

The first = duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is = the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who = representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world = of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and = whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of = every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most = sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every = ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are = inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other.(Baha'u'llah, The = Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 16)

Be = thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty = hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride = towards God from all eternity to all eternity. Tablet of Ahmad, = Baha'u'llah



=


=
On Oct 17, 2008, at 5:09 PM, mikeran37@yahoo.com = wrote:




I've been = following this discussion only off and on from the >sidelines so might = have missed something but I'm not sure what point >you're making. =  I'm quite easy with the idea that even moderate >drinking may be = somewhat unhealthy and reduce life expectancy by a >few years.  I'd = be equally easy if more evidence is found that >changes that view. =  Are you of the opinion that people should be >restrained or = discouraged from having mildly unhealthy habits?

I = will restate what I have stated from the beginning. Alcohol is = a
known carcinogen. People should be informed. In much the same way = that
people are advised to avoid smoking. Cigarrette companies are = forced
to label their packets with warnings. There is a double = standard in
our society when it comes to alcohol. I sincerely = believe, in much the
same way that smoking has declined, alcohol = usage will decline with
the proper education. I'm not advocating = prohibition, but I do believe
that eventually alcohol will decline in = it's usage (without the
Baha'is help) simply because of the facts = that be.

The arguement digressed when Kent chose to acuse me of = mis-
representing the facts that be. Only, if you review his = presentation,
he has already demonstrated a serious inability to = understand the
primary literature on the subject, let alone mount = such an accusation.
Which at this point for my regard makes this = arguement a waste of
time.

 With that stated, I wouldn't = disagree, Baha'u'llah has forbidden it.
In that regard it could be = the elixer of immortality, and I still
wouldn't want = it.




<= /div>